resized injectors

[pdasterly]

got my injectors resized, stock 98 z28 bosch design 3.
The flow sheet says :
CC 572
LB 55
4Bar

[mr.prick]

How much did it cost?

[Slowrc]

I also got my 28.8 @ 58 psi exchanged for 36 lb @ 58 psi for 200 shipped. My IDC was 98% at 6200 and I want to spin higher one day. Mine are also bosch design 3 and came with a flow sheet.

[pdasterly]

$240
http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/docs/order_form.pdf

[pdasterly]

how do i input this into efilive. should i just change the flow rate B4001

[mr.prick]

I asked the guy @ fuelinjectorconnection.com about doing this,
and he told me that {B4001} is all that needs to be changed.
As long as you know what psi they are matched to, and what your FP is
the spreadsheet should get you the right values.

Too bad I already have the Racetronix 42lb`s.
I would rather have the stock injectors re-sized
instead of having too tweak more than one table.

[pdasterly]

thanks, hope this works

[pdasterly]

what spreadsheet are you refering to?

[mr.prick]

http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/injectors.xls

[Redline Motorsports]

There is a lot more to injector calibrating then changing the IFR table. There are at least a half a dozen parameters that need to be properly calibrated when changing injectors and significantly effect every aspect of tuning.

What are you going to do about your short pulse adder table now that the stock injector has been bored out? What about the spray pattern that is drastically changed?

You would have been better off with a factory larger injector with known values then an injector that does not have all the required data.

[pdasterly]

???

[mr.prick]

There is a lot more to injector calibrating then changing the IFR table. There are at least a half a dozen parameters that need to be properly calibrated when changing injectors and significantly effect every aspect of tuning.

What are you going to do about your short pulse adder table now that the stock injector has been bored out? What about the spray pattern that is drastically changed?

You would have been better off with a factory larger injector with known values then an injector that does not have all the required data.

He has the stock injectors, re-sized.

[Redline Motorsports]

He has the stock injectors, re-sized.

Ok, so you think resizing the original hole size has no effect on the injectors chararcteristics? You one at least have drastically changed the spray pattern which is critical to the injectors flow.

Howard

[mr.prick]

According to the guy that re-sizes them all that needs to be changed is the IFR table.
42 bosch modified from 24's

In the video, the spray patterns are very similar.
Why would they act differently (besides flow) if they are the same internally? (offsets)

[Redline Motorsports]

According to the guy that re-sizes them all that needs to be changed is the IFR table.
42 bosch modified from 24's

In the video, the spray patterns are very similar.
Why would they act differently (besides flow) if they are the same internally? (offsets)

Because the orifice plate has been changed. Injectors are not linear and changing this plate will effect the short pulse effects of the injector.

[Slowrc]

Because the orifice plate has been changed. Injectors are not linear and changing this plate will effect the short pulse effects of the injector.

If this is the case, All this should be worked out with a auto ve tune ??? I have these and I am running a lm1 so when I install them and change the ifr, I'll report back.

[Redline Motorsports]

If this is the case, All this should be worked out with a auto ve tune ??? I have these and I am running a lm1 so when I install them and change the ifr, I'll report back.

The thing that everyone forgets is that the injector value tables in the software are specific to the characteristics of a given injector. There is more then a IFR table that tells the PCM how it needs to control that injector to keep AFR's in line. A few may not need to be altered in this case since it is a stock winding but the way the fuel leaves the injector is an important attribute in the calculation.

You may need to falsify your VE table or MAF to get the fuel in line but now all you have done is misrepresented the air model of the engine. Tuning is all about being able to tell the PCM EXACTLY how much air is entering the motor at a given condition. If this is done properly, you would be surprised how much fudging is NOT needed with many other tables to make a good running engine. This air modeling takes into consideration that the injector values are correct for that injector.

I know for a fact that changing the orifice size changes the spray pattern and more importantly the "short pulse" time in ms. from stock. There is a table for that in the software.

Howard

[pdasterly]

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff311/Pdasterly/injectors0001.jpg

[pdasterly]

B4005 in the program??

[jonfic]

The thing that everyone forgets is that the injector value tables in the software are specific to the characteristics of a given injector. There is more then a IFR table that tells the PCM how it needs to control that injector to keep AFR's in line. A few may not need to be altered in this case since it is a stock winding but the way the fuel leaves the injector is an important attribute in the calculation.

You may need to falsify your VE table or MAF to get the fuel in line but now all you have done is misrepresented the air model of the engine. Tuning is all about being able to tell the PCM EXACTLY how much air is entering the motor at a given condition. If this is done properly, you would be surprised how much fudging is NOT needed with many other tables to make a good running engine. This air modeling takes into consideration that the injector values are correct for that injector.

I know for a fact that changing the orifice size changes the spray pattern and more importantly the "short pulse" time in ms. from stock. There is a table for that in the software.

HowardHere's some facts that maybe will help us all understand whats going on. First of all if you take the Bosch 3 injector and take the discharge plate off of all sizes from 24-42 you will find that the injector itself including coil are identical. Meaning If I put the different size injectors on a flow bench without discharge plates, the injectors all flow identical. There is no difference in any of these injectors as a valve. Therefore all Bosch does is make one injector for their EV6 series and puts different size holes in the plate. From a manufacturing standpoint this would be most cost effective for them. What this means to me is that being all the same injector except for color, I can do the same thing. We duplicate the hole diameter in all the different sizes, flow test and match them. To us, this is no different than Bosch doing it at the factory as far as performance etc. Us and many shops have been "modifying" injectors for years. We just happen to market it. I will prepare some videos in the next couple of weeks showing a modified injector flowing next to its original counterpart on the flow bench. This way you will see at various pulse widths the injector flowing in real time. Then make your own decision. Also with custom stuff we can give you an injector that is exactly the flow you need. In other words if you need a 56.5 lb injector at 4 bar I can give you that. I can also make 2 in the same set 58 for the two back cylinders that tend to have higher EGT's than the other 6. There are many shops and turbo kit builders using modified injectors with their kits. You probably have bought some but don't even know it. I also experimented with a few race shops using a modified original injector with out touching anything but the IFR table and slopping the injector the way we want. The result was a few more HP over a aftermarket injector with a tendency to have much better idle characteristics. If any of the shops are on line here your comments are very welcome, good or bad.
thanks

[joecar]

Jon @ FIC, welcome to the forum...:cheers:

[SSpdDmon]

Hmmm...I have Motron 60's with a lower fuel pressure than stock and a flat IFR table. I wonder if going back to 58psi and some custom injectors would solve my minor issues.?.? It also may come in handy if you notice bank 1 running leaner than bank 2 like it tends to do.

How much can you open up a stock 28# LS1 injector to?

[jonfic]

Hmmm...I have Motron 60's with a lower fuel pressure than stock and a flat IFR table. I wonder if going back to 58psi and some custom injectors would solve my minor issues.?.? It also may come in handy if you notice bank 1 running leaner than bank 2 like it tends to do.

How much can you open up a stock 28# LS1 injector to?i have made the injector flow 60 @4 bar.. we never really punch them that big, most guys go 48 then they buy the Siemens mototron like you have done. Got a proposition for you, be a Guinea pig, send them to me I will do them for free. Put them in and give me exactly what you changed from the stock ls1 program. On your IFR table start at 59 and slope to 63.5 instead of flat lining the table.
call me 770-888-1662

[Slowrc]

Wecome to the forum Jon! You said it better than I could have. :cheers:

[Redline Motorsports]

Here's some facts that maybe will help us all understand whats going on. First of all if you take the Bosch 3 injector and take the discharge plate off of all sizes from 24-42 you will find that the injector itself including coil are identical. Meaning If I put the different size injectors on a flow bench without discharge plates, the injectors all flow identical. There is no difference in any of these injectors as a valve. Therefore all Bosch does is make one injector for their EV6 series and puts different size holes in the plate. From a manufacturing standpoint this would be most cost effective for them. What this means to me is that being all the same injector except for color, I can do the same thing. We duplicate the hole diameter in all the different sizes, flow test and match them. To us, this is no different than Bosch doing it at the factory as far as performance etc. Us and many shops have been "modifying" injectors for years. We just happen to market it. I will prepare some videos in the next couple of weeks showing a modified injector flowing next to its original counterpart on the flow bench. This way you will see at various pulse widths the injector flowing in real time. Then make your own decision. Also with custom stuff we can give you an injector that is exactly the flow you need. In other words if you need a 56.5 lb injector at 4 bar I can give you that. I can also make 2 in the same set 58 for the two back cylinders that tend to have higher EGT's than the other 6. There are many shops and turbo kit builders using modified injectors with their kits. You probably have bought some but don't even know it. I also experimented with a few race shops using a modified original injector with out touching anything but the IFR table and slopping the injector the way we want. The result was a few more HP over a aftermarket injector with a tendency to have much better idle characteristics. If any of the shops are on line here your comments are very welcome, good or bad.
thanks

You are correct in your statements except there is more to an injector then its static flow rate. Using an OEM injector with known values is a plus as GM, or whoever, has done the flow data and profiled the injectors characteristics. The static flow rate is based upon an injector at 100 % DC. Short pulse adders, minimum pulse width, minimum injector pulse width and small pulse threshold are the ones that really come into play and idle/cruise control.

I don't see how a modified set of GM injectors can make more HP. Power is relative to the amount of fuel mixed with air and can be achieved with any injector if the calibrator is doing his job. I am not kicking down this as an option for an injector but merely stating that there are other parameters that need to be considered.

Once the PCM commands the injector to fire there is a surge in fuel that happens due to rail pressure rise. When you make the orifice plate larger, this surge becomes less and there fore requires a delay adjustment. What is that delay time on the injectors you provide?

I have had MANY cars come through my shop where 60#'s where installed that ran like crap. Just buy using the correct parameters noted above turned then into literally stock running cars. My point was know your injector well and many other parts of the tuning process will come together much better.

I have friends that work in the GM fuel lab and Siemans/Continental that have made this clear and helped us collect the correct data for a few of the injectors on the market.

Howard

[jonfic]

You are correct in your statements except there is more to an injector then its static flow rate. Using an OEM injector with known values is a plus as GM, or whoever, has done the flow data and profiled the injectors characteristics. The static flow rate is based upon an injector at 100 % DC. Short pulse adders, minimum pulse width, minimum injector pulse width and small pulse threshold are the ones that really come into play and idle/cruise control.

I don't see how a modified set of GM injectors can make more HP. Power is relative to the amount of fuel mixed with air and can be achieved with any injector if the calibrator is doing his job. I am not kicking down this as an option for an injector but merely stating that there are other parameters that need to be considered.

Once the PCM commands the injector to fire there is a surge in fuel that happens due to rail pressure rise. When you make the orifice plate larger, this surge becomes less and there fore requires a delay adjustment. What is that delay time on the injectors you provide?

I have had MANY cars come through my shop where 60#'s where installed that ran like crap. Just buy using the correct parameters noted above turned then into literally stock running cars. My point was know your injector well and many other parts of the tuning process will come together much better.

I have friends that work in the GM fuel lab and Siemans/Continental that have made this clear and helped us collect the correct data for a few of the injectors on the market.

Howardyou are 100% correct and at the same time maybe wrong.. I am not a tuner, I leave that to you guys. all I know is what the tuners feedback is. We have tons of these out there, with great results. The injector does not make the horsepower, no way, but, a properly tuned engine runs more efficiently. This is what makes the HP. Most of the mods we do are converting stock ls2 and ls3 to 42lb. The tuners use the same files as a 42 Bosch (the design 3 42 not the green top)and off the customer goes. On the big end 60 plus I would say fine tuning is critical to get all you can out of the mtr and at the same time have good idle and cruise characteristics. The biggest problem in data for all these injectors, not just ours, but all aftermarket injectors is finding the correct data.. Is most of the data compiled from the injector manufacturer? I think not. So, the more we can use the factory tables are we better off? your comments are really welcome!
Jon

[SSpdDmon]

i have made the injector flow 60 @4 bar.. we never really punch them that big, most guys go 48 then they buy the Siemens mototron like you have done. Got a proposition for you, be a Guinea pig, send them to me I will do them for free. Put them in and give me exactly what you changed from the stock ls1 program. On your IFR table start at 59 and slope to 63.5 instead of flat lining the table.
call me 770-888-1662
I'll have to keep you in mind. Problem is, I don't have 28's right now. The car came with SVO 42's, which weren't keeping up with my boosted setup and a 255lph pump. I've now got twin pumps on a hobbs switch and the motrons with an inline vacuum referenced FPR. I assume I could swap 'em out and cap off the vacuum ref. on the regulator - but I still have to find some first.

I'll keep my eyes open and if I find a pair, I'll be in touch. :)

On the other side of the spectrum, I'd be curious on how to find out info about the Motron 60's short pulse characteristics, their voltage offset characteristics, etc. Plugging that info in would be a hell of a lot less work and money. LOL

[jonfic]

I'll have to keep you in mind. Problem is, I don't have 28's right now. The car came with SVO 42's, which weren't keeping up with my boosted setup and a 255lph pump. I've now got twin pumps on a hobbs switch and the motrons with an inline vacuum referenced FPR. I assume I could swap 'em out and cap off the vacuum ref. on the regulator - but I still have to find some first.

I'll keep my eyes open and if I find a pair, I'll be in touch. :)

On the other side of the spectrum, I'd be curious on how to find out info about the Motron 60's short pulse characteristics, their voltage offset characteristics, etc. Plugging that info in would be a hell of a lot less work and money. LOL
thanks I will try to get that info for you

[mr.prick]

I`ve got a set of stock 28lb LS1 injectors!

I would love to dump my Lucas 42lbs. even though I finally got the
small pulse adjust to where I don`t run rich under decel.

[jonfic]

I`ve got a set of stock 28lb LS1 injectors!

I would love to dump my Lucas 42lbs. even though I finally got the
small pulse adjust to where I don`t run rich under decel.the lucas 42 are about 48 in there.. I can do those bosch 3 anyway you want, your part of the deal is report how they work after you install them compared to the injectors you have. If you have a log tell me what DS your lucas are at. Lets see exactly what size you need. will do it for free just for publicity,
Jon

[mr.prick]

My last log I hit 50% IDC.
The minimum pulse i see in this range is 1.7ms-1.6ms.

I have read the Lucas are rated with n-Heptane and
need to be multiplied by 1.035.
1.035*42.29lb/hr = 43.77lb/hr
43.77lb/hr @ 60psi (average logged fuel pressure) = 51.41lb/hr

My IFR slope {B4001}

MANVAC kPa---- IFR lb/hr
0---------------51.406165
5---------------51.715896
10--------------52.023784
15--------------52.329860
20--------------52.634156
25--------------52.936703
30--------------53.237531
35--------------53.536668
40--------------53.834143
45--------------54.129983
50--------------54.424216
55--------------54.716866
60--------------55.007959
65--------------55.297520
70--------------55.585572
75--------------55.872140
80--------------56.157245

My elevation is about a mile high so I only see 85kPa MAP.
I run 13.11AFR WOT @ 85kPa,
12.9AFR @ 90kPa+

[jonfic]

heres a video on a stock ls2 to 52lbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgIx1OtYbZY

[jonfic]

My last log I hit 50% IDC.
The minimum pulse i see in this range is 1.7ms-1.6ms.

I have read the Lucas are rated with n-Heptane and
need to be multiplied by 1.035.
1.035*42.29lb/hr = 43.77lb/hr
43.77lb/hr @ 60psi (average logged fuel pressure) = 51.41lb/hr

My IFR slope {B4001}

MANVAC kPa---- IFR lb/hr
0---------------51.406165
5---------------51.715896
10--------------52.023784
15--------------52.329860
20--------------52.634156
25--------------52.936703
30--------------53.237531
35--------------53.536668
40--------------53.834143
45--------------54.129983
50--------------54.424216
55--------------54.716866
60--------------55.007959
65--------------55.297520
70--------------55.585572
75--------------55.872140
80--------------56.157245

My elevation is about a mile high so I only see 85kPa MAP.
I run 13.11AFR WOT @ 85kPa,
12.9AFR @ 90kPa+i do not know your set up. what is your chp?

[mr.prick]

My rwhp was 460 last time I dynoed,
but that was with someone other than myself tuning.
The tune was not right, overly rich WOT and awful spark advance.

Setting the Lucas 42`s @ 55lb+ above 60kPa should prevent or reduce rich decel,
but it does not.
These are not used in any vehicle stock, and there no offsets for them that i can find.
A lot or experimenting was needed to get them not to hang open under decel.
42lb is enough for the car but I got the stockers if you still want a set.

[jonfic]

My rwhp was 460 last time I dynoed,
but that was with someone other than myself tuning.
The tune was not right, overly rich WOT and awful spark advance.

Setting the Lucas 42`s @ 55lb+ above 60kPa should prevent or reduce rich decel,
but it does not.
These are not used in any vehicle stock, and there no offsets for them that i can find.
A lot or experimenting was needed to get them not to hang open under decel.
42lb is enough for the car but I got the stockers if you still want a set.

LETS ASSUME YOU HAVE 520 AT THE CRANK, N/A MTR WITH 58PSI RAIL PRESSURE. WITH THOSE NUMBERS USING 80%IDS YOU ONLY NEED 36LB/HR INJECTORS. YOU HAVE 51 WHICH WILL SUPPORT 740 hp. i THINK YOU ARE WAY OVER INJECTED WITH THE WRONG TYPE OF INJECTOR IN THAT MTR. SEND ME THE STOCK INJECTORS i WILL MAKE THEM 36@ 4 BAR AND YOUR CAR SHOULD RUN SPOT ON WITH THE FACTORY TUNE USING THE IFR TABLE I GIVE YOU WITH THE INJECTORS. CALL ME AT THE SHOP TO DISCUSS 770 888 1662
JON

[SSpdDmon]

LETS ASSUME YOU HAVE 520 AT THE CRANK, N/A MTR WITH 58PSI RAIL PRESSURE. WITH THOSE NUMBERS USING 80%IDS YOU ONLY NEED 36LB/HR INJECTORS. YOU HAVE 51 WHICH WILL SUPPORT 740 hp. i THINK YOU ARE WAY OVER INJECTED WITH THE WRONG TYPE OF INJECTOR IN THAT MTR. SEND ME THE STOCK INJECTORS i WILL MAKE THEM 36@ 4 BAR AND YOUR CAR SHOULD RUN SPOT ON WITH THE FACTORY TUNE USING THE IFR TABLE I GIVE YOU WITH THE INJECTORS. CALL ME AT THE SHOP TO DISCUSS 770 888 1662
JON
What about a stock LS1 making 490~510rwhp on 7psi through a T56/Moser12/3.73's and targeting a 12:1 AFR? :D

[jonfic]

What about a stock LS1 making 490~510rwhp on 7psi through a T56/Moser12/3.73's and targeting a 12:1 AFR? :Dthat motor using a 80IDS and a BSFC of .65 needs 49.15lb/hr using a CHP input of 560
what do you have in there?

[jonfic]

I'll have to keep you in mind. Problem is, I don't have 28's right now. The car came with SVO 42's, which weren't keeping up with my boosted setup and a 255lph pump. I've now got twin pumps on a hobbs switch and the motrons with an inline vacuum referenced FPR. I assume I could swap 'em out and cap off the vacuum ref. on the regulator - but I still have to find some first.

I'll keep my eyes open and if I find a pair, I'll be in touch. :)

On the other side of the spectrum, I'd be curious on how to find out info about the Motron 60's short pulse characteristics, their voltage offset characteristics, etc. Plugging that info in would be a hell of a lot less work and money. LOL
i have the specs you need for the 60 siemens .. pm me your e mail.I will send it to you

[SSpdDmon]

that motor using a 80IDS and a BSFC of .65 needs 49.15lb/hr using a CHP input of 560
what do you have in there?

So, stockers opened up to 50lb/hr would be a good place to start assuming the car isn't getting any power upgrades in the near future??


i have the specs you need for the 60 siemens 60.. pm me your e mail.I will send it to you

saj79 at aol dot com

Thanks! :)

[jonfic]

So, stockers opened up to 50lb/hr would be a good place to start assuming the car isn't getting any power upgrades in the near future??



saj79 at aol dot com

Thanks! :)
MAKE THE STOCKERs FLOW 50@ 4 BAR NOT 3.. your spec sheet is in your e mail
thanks
jon

[mr.prick]

LETS ASSUME YOU HAVE 520 AT THE CRANK, N/A MTR WITH 58PSI RAIL PRESSURE. WITH THOSE NUMBERS USING 80%IDS YOU ONLY NEED 36LB/HR INJECTORS. YOU HAVE 51 WHICH WILL SUPPORT 740 hp. i THINK YOU ARE WAY OVER INJECTED WITH THE WRONG TYPE OF INJECTOR IN THAT MTR. SEND ME THE STOCK INJECTORS i WILL MAKE THEM 36@ 4 BAR AND YOUR CAR SHOULD RUN SPOT ON WITH THE FACTORY TUNE USING THE IFR TABLE I GIVE YOU WITH THE INJECTORS. CALL ME AT THE SHOP TO DISCUSS 770 888 1662
JON

Yeah, I know I am over injected.
Had I known about resizing the stockers,
I would have gone that route.
At least I didn`t pay too much for these lousy lucas`.
Maybe SSpdDmon can use them them. :grin:

[pdasterly]

its alive, up a running. Appointment tomorrow with the dyno

[SSpdDmon]

Yeah, I know I am over injected.
Had I known about resizing the stockers,
I would have gone that route.
At least I didn`t pay too much for these lousy lucas`.
Maybe SSpdDmon can use them them. :grin:
I already have 60's...thanks tho

[driver456]

I had Jon@FIC resize my Ford SVO 30# inj. to 55# inj. Very happy with it.Real nice guy to deal with and quick turn around............Paul

[jonfic]

I had Jon@FIC resize my Ford SVO 30# inj. to 55# inj. Very happy with it.Real nice guy to deal with and quick turn around............Paul
hi Paul, was wondering how you were. How easy was the tune and what did you actually change?
Jon

[driver456]

hi Paul, was wondering how you were. How easy was the tune and what did you actually change?
Jon

Hey Jon,I changed the injector flow rate table and changed some of the air tables and the car idle's fine:grin:My injector duty cycle at WOT is 64% instead of 87% with the 42# inj................Paul

[jonfic]

Hey Jon,I changed the injector flow rate table and changed some of the air tables and the car idle's fine:grin:My injector duty cycle at WOT is 64% instead of 87% with the 42# inj................PaulHow did it used to idle? now you got some headroom anyway, time to spend more money!

[Slowrc]

I got my Fic injectors in this weekend.:cucumber: Changed the b4001 flow table only. They seem to run about .20 leaner on the top end and Idle great. I did log a 81% duty cycle at 6450 rpm tho. I was at 98% with the stock 28.8's. I want to spin to 6800 or so one day. Should I go up a little more???
THANKS JON:cheers:

[jonfic]

I also got my 28.8 @ 58 psi exchanged for 36 lb @ 58 psi for 200 shipped. My IDC was 98% at 6200 and I want to spin higher one day. Mine are also bosch design 3 and came with a flow sheet.Glad the DS is on the number we figured.. Not bad. We took ls1 stockers and made them 36.

[driver456]

How did it used to idle? now you got some headroom anyway, time to spend more money!

I had a real bad idle swing starting to happen when I had the 42# green tops,Could not tune it out.I ported my intake while it was off after I sent you the 30# inj I had laying around,So either the 42# greentops where getting dirty or I started getting an air leak some where,But it seem's to idle fine now after I put the intake & new injector's back on............Paul

[mr.prick]

How much does it cost to resize the stock LS1 injectors?

[jonfic]

How much does it cost to re size the stock LS1 injectors?240 for the set including a rebuild with viton o rings, bosch filters and new base caps.

[Redline Motorsports]

Jon,

Tried to call you the other day but it must have been too late in the afternoon..........

Howard

[jonfic]

Jon,

Tried to call you the other day but it must have been too late in the afternoon..........

Howard
Howard I will call you in the morning

[Redline Motorsports]

More interesting reading..........reminds me of the header wars a couple years ago...

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-forced-induction-nitrous/2265502-80-lb-hr-high-impedance-injector-promo.html

This was my point from the beginning but to each there own.

[jonfic]

Since I had nothing to do all night I successfully modified a Bosch EV14 that is a drop in for the ls2, ls7 to flow 80lbs at 3 bar. The spray pattern is very acceptable and there is no need to modify your fuel rail height and the stock fuel rail cover can still be used. By using the long Siemens I don't think the fuel rail covers will fit since the injector is so much longer. We are not offering these for sale until someone tests them for us on a dyno. What I need is someone with a dyno to volunteer to do this. I think this will give you the extra flow needed for those high HP engines without having to change the complete tune. The stock computer was programmed using this injector. There is no one that can compete with GM engineers in this category. There is simply not enough data on the other injectors to tune it properly. IMO. The set is balanced 100% each injector flows 832cc/mn / I also will be able to make 2 of the set flow 840cc for cyl 7 and 8 if you need. Who wants to try it? We also sell the new Siemens 80 that they are pushing in the promo link mentioned above for the same money but we flow match our sets for free. Also shipping is 11.60 anywhere in the states.

[Slowrc]

Got em back in Jon. They run good. I was running the car with the fuel pressure gauge installed and noticed it drops a few PSI when I get on it some. Should I try and blend this into the IFR or keep the 58 psi across the board? Opinions???

Signed happy customer:)

[Redline Motorsports]

The IFR table should not be used as a tuning table once it is PROPERLY set. None of the injector tables are modified once the correct injector data is entered. If you have fuel pressure drop issues then deal with those as fuel delivery issues. Some drop is normal as long as its no more then 2 psi.

[Slowrc]

The IFR table should not be used as a tuning table once it is PROPERLY set. None of the injector tables are modified once the correct injector data is entered. If you have fuel pressure drop issues then deal with those as fuel delivery issues. Some drop is normal as long as its no more then 2 psi.

OK, but stock factory specs are 55 to 60 psi and my car idles at 59 or 60 and falls to 56 under higher rpms. This seems relatively good considering what I am asking of the fuel system and considering the specs. I am just wondering if entering 56psi in the ifr speadsheet for the higher load would better represent the actual data therefor giving the pcm more correct data to work with. What cha think???

In other words, I am wanting to give the pcm accurate data, not use the IFR table as a fuel tuning device. That will be handle with a wideband and street tuning.

[SSpdDmon]

The IFR table should not be used as a tuning table once it is PROPERLY set. None of the injector tables are modified once the correct injector data is entered. If you have fuel pressure drop issues then deal with those as fuel delivery issues. Some drop is normal as long as its no more then 2 psi.


OK, but stock factory specs are 55 to 60 psi and my car idles at 59 or 60 and falls to 56 under higher rpms. This seems relatively good considering what I am asking of the fuel system and considering the specs. I am just wondering if entering 56psi in the ifr speadsheet for the higher load would better represent the actual data therefor giving the pcm more correct data to work with. What cha think???

In other words, I am wanting to give the pcm accurate data, not use the IFR table as a fuel tuning device. That will be handle with a wideband and street tuning.
If you can log fuel pressure, I'd try to come up with a table from 0kPa-80kPa manvac (just like the IFR). Then, based on your results for each cell, figure out your injector flow rate using the spreadsheet.

That way, both of you are right. The IFR doesn't have to be linear. It needs to be an accurate representation of what the injectors will do during a given condition. If 95% of the time you see 56psi at 0~5kPa of manvac, then that's what I would use to calc those cells. If the majority of the time you see 58psi for 45kPa, then I'd use that number to calculate that cell....and so on.

[mr.prick]

Rating you injectors by logged FP can leave you with a rocky IFR table,
and you may not like how you VE table looks after wards.
IMO set it to your average FP.

[hquick]

As a few of you have used/are using the 42lb Bosch (Ford) 'green tops', can any of you guys tell me the specifics of these?
Info on these seems to be VERY hard to come by.

Thanks

[mr.prick]

You did check here, right?
EFILive Tune File Repository (http://www.holdencrazy.com/EFILive/modifiedTunes.php)

[hquick]

Yeah..I did thanks. Actually....I reckon I've gone through just about every tune in there...Lol!
Problem with the Bosch-Ford 42lb greentops is NOBODY seems to be able to agree on what the IFR's should be set at due to not being sure whether they're tested at 3 or 4 bar?

[redhardsupra]

hquick, this is old, and yes, i share, 'cuz sharing is caring ;)
http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/09/rated-fuel-pressure-on-svo-42s-is.html

[hquick]

Lol! Thanks Marcin. I'm not doubting your info. I'm just a bit OC. :thumb_yello:

[Stealth97]

Howard, with the marine we see between 50 and 58psi of FP. Use 54 as the base pressure to set IFR, IMHO. I did on mine recently and she runs great. Anybody think we should use 50 or 58?

So, using 54 you get square root of (54/43.5) or 1.114172 times 42.xx whatever they really are in cc's. So I think you should be using IFR constant of 46.795224 or whatever fits in the box.

What are you using as your constant?

[hquick]

Here's a copy of my current tune Eric.
I have the Walbro high pressure pump in there and see 60+ Psi under normal conditions.

I don't wish to hijack this thread but I was just interested in hearing if johnfic had any info on the Bosch/Ford 42lb greentops?

[SOMhaveit]

You would have been better off with a factory larger injector with known values then an injector that does not have all the required data.

This would be a good thing, but I have yet to find that injector. GM uses varying IFR tables in different cars with the exact same injector. It's only 1-2%, but they are not absolute consistant values. GM is also "tweaking" MAF, VE, and short pulse adders using the same injector, cid engine, and MAF.

Without a doubt, you know way more about this than I do, and I would agree that using a GM part will get you in the ball park very quickly, whereas the aftermarket stuff looks like highly guarded black art.

Just curious, does making the oem injecter volume larger change the injector dead time? And just what is the value of static flow anyhow, except to compare volume to another static flow rating? Don't we really need dynamic flow numbers? And where is that info? Someone has it somewhere. With all of the Lucas and Ford SVO injectors sold to the LSx market, has noone actually compiled dynamic flow numbers for them?

[PowerLabs]

I installed an A&A Vortech V2 Si-Trim supercharger on my LS2 Corvette; the kit came with Bosch 52lbs/hr injectors which ended up at 96 - 97% duty cycle. I was told I could switch to the Siemens 60lb/hr injectors, but did not want to because they are not a direct bolt on and don't fit as well. Jon from the Fuel Injector Connection (http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/) took my injectors in, resized them, cleaned them out, flow tested them and got them back to me the next day!
The resized injectors were the perfect solution; completely stock fitment, identical dwell times and response, and extremely simple to retune for.
The car now runs in the mid 80s% duty cycle, and the proof, as they say, is in the pudding: Here is what it put down on pump gas, stock internals, in a daily driver tune:

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd339/sampowerlabs/DSCF1437.jpg

I HIGHLY recommend the injector resizing service to anyone :thumbs:

[joecar]

PowerLabs (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?u=8784),

Welcome to the forum...:cheers:

Very nice dyno chart...:cheers:

[Redline Motorsports]

This would be a good thing, but I have yet to find that injector. GM uses varying IFR tables in different cars with the exact same injector. It's only 1-2%, but they are not absolute consistant values. GM is also "tweaking" MAF, VE, and short pulse adders using the same injector, cid engine, and MAF.

Without a doubt, you know way more about this than I do, and I would agree that using a GM part will get you in the ball park very quickly, whereas the aftermarket stuff looks like highly guarded black art.

Just curious, does making the oem injecter volume larger change the injector dead time? And just what is the value of static flow anyhow, except to compare volume to another static flow rating? Don't we really need dynamic flow numbers? And where is that info? Someone has it somewhere. With all of the Lucas and Ford SVO injectors sold to the LSx market, has noone actually compiled dynamic flow numbers for them?

This has been the whole point of my comments!:doh2:

The static flow rate (or what the IFR table is expressing) is only one part of injector setup. Its the easy part! The only time these values are obtained are at 100 % duty cycle with the assumed base fuel pressure.

Since the final fueling formula uses this its important. The other tables like "dead time", short pulse, min, etc.......are equally as important and really rear there head at low pulse width required times of engine operation. Idle, cruise and transients.....These value are "offsetting" the pulse width to allow for mechanical characteristics (winding size, pintle design,ie..) of the injector OR system changes like battery voltage and heat soak (more in the E38).

Unfortunately some of this data is hard to find so it just creates more drama for us. This is why the concept of grabbing a OEM injector with as much "known" data is a great route. Believe me when I tell you.....the values in the "other tables" are key!

Howard

[redhardsupra]

there are 3 major tables that affect fueling (that we know of/can adjust)
1. IFR--i completely agree that this is the easy one, as you can completely map it out with a fuel pressure sensor, whether the injector was resized or not.

2. voltage offset table--this is where it gets fuzzy. It really depends on what the resizing process involves. If whoever provides the service wants to chime in here, I'd be very interested in reading the details. Since the dead time is mostly dependent on forces acting upon the pintle, any change to the pintle or the coils would probably affect the dead time characteristics. One easy trick to get around all this is to run voltage higher than normal, as if you look at the table, should notice that the voltage offset values get smaller and they dont change as much as they do at lower voltages. By upping the voltage you'd basically reduce a complex 3d surface into a small, almost constant value. a lot of cars i've tuned tend to run lower voltage than it should be anyway, so just keep it around healthy 14volts and you should eliminate a lot of problems.

3. Short Pulse Adder--I am in complete disagreement with the idea of keeping this one stock for the resized injectors. This is the table officially designated to account for all the nonlinear flow properties, so all the peculiarities are going to be changed. Remember this is an adder of pulsewidth, so changing the IFR is going to have an unknown impact on the SPA.

short version: i seriously doubt resizing injectors is the cure to all of our problems. at best it reduces the number of the unknowns (if the voltage offsets stay the same). at worse they keep the same number of unknowns, but also mess up the spray pattern, and introducing a whole new slew of errors into the wall evaporation and puddling estimators.

[SOMhaveit]

there are 3 major tables that affect fueling (that we know of/can adjust)

2. voltage offset table--this is where it gets fuzzy. It really depends on what the resizing process involves. If whoever provides the service wants to chime in here, I'd be very interested in reading the details.

I don't know about details but from reading other posts by FIC the gist of it is they enlarge the orifice in the metering disc. There are no modifications to the pintle or coil.

[Redline Motorsports]

I don't know about details but from reading other posts by FIC the gist of it is they enlarge the orifice in the metering disc. There are no modifications to the pintle or coil.

Wow we are beating this thread to death!:fluffy:
I am 100% in agreement with Marcin. This is just simple facts.....

Howard

[hquick]

I'm not sure about the whole resizing thing either. I'm still trying to get my 42's to behave. Lately I've been trying all sorts of combinations with all of the injector tables...except for the IFR table because that's fairly well known....although there are still some variances there. This thread on the 'other' tuners forum is well worth a read..IMO.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14101&highlight=pulse+width&page=7

I'm currently going with 'some' of these numbers. I'm in the situation where the ONLY known value I have is the IFR. My VE could be shot to pieces due to the SPA or any other variable as all of my mods were done at once whilst the Burb was off the road. With a completely different intake to any others and a unique TB setup...I'm at the point where I'm ready to 'fudge' any and all tables just to get it 'right'. I'm also a bit of a perfectionist....so this is doing my head in. Lol!

[SOMhaveit]

Wow we are beating this thread to death!:fluffy:
I am 100% in agreement with Marcin. This is just simple facts.....

Howard

You must have missed the part where he said he'd like some details.

I feel your pain, but I was trying to contribute something positive.

And yes this subject has been thrashed about for years now on Tech, HPT, here, and every other LSx forum. There are some folks like Marcin who have shared detailed results of their efforts with this and other forums and I certainly appreciate that.

Some folks posting here are clearly working on transient fueling issues and are trying to get it worked out. I'm one of them. I don't do this for a living and was not happy with the results I got from a "professional" that does do it for a living. Thanks to the fact that idle surge and surge at lower rpms got beaten to death and the efforts of one, maybe two people here who did the work and posted it up, we have what is now a sticky and I don't have the crappy idle and surging I got for a princely sum from a pro.

If I knew exactly what needed to be done, or I could say this is what I did and it worked for me, I'd post it up. Today I got a chance to fiddle with it for a half hour or so and it looks like the small pulse adder plays a big role in idle AFR. Changing the values in voltage/KPA adder didn't do much at idle.

[Redline Motorsports]

The reference to "beatin to death" was directed to the issue that drilling out factory injectors require more then a IFR change to make them work properly. Marcin just restated something I said 3-4 posts into this thread. The only mystery to this is obtaining the correct data for a given injector. Short of that GM put those values in the calibration for a reason.

[hquick]

Hey all....don't let the posts get confusing...there's two Howards in this discussion.
I have a couple of logs where for the most part...I've seen around 1.4ms IBPW...BUT I have also seen on a couple of occasions 0.35ms and I have no idea why. Thye occur on a 'off throttle' transient....but I have tried to deliberately reproduce them and can't.
I've found the Voltage/Kpa offset makes a HUGE difference and can go from full rich to full lean decel depending on my numbers in that table. I can also adjust idle AFR's via the SPA table.

[SOMhaveit]

The reference to "beatin to death" was directed to the issue that drilling out factory injectors require more then a IFR change to make them work properly.

I'll buy that.

[SOMhaveit]

I've found the Voltage/Kpa offset makes a HUGE difference and can go from full rich to full lean decel depending on my numbers in that table. I can also adjust idle AFR's via the SPA table.

I had the same experience with the Small Pulse Adder and idle AFR. Small adjustments make a big difference.

I also believe you are correct that the voltage/Kpa table has an effect on rich decel. Are you primarily adjusting V/Kpa at the lower MAP/higher vacuum values that you hit on decel? If so, do you see/feel a transition spike going from decel to on throttle situations? Don't you think some of the rich decel issue has to be addressed in VE too?

I can see more tail-chasing if global changes are made to the V/Kpa table and on throttle AFR gets lean too.

[5.7ute]

The voltage offset table will have a big effect on decel, since it is a larger portion of the commanded pulsewidth. Since the small pulse adder is usually active in these areas as well as min pulse width etc you could end up adjusting the offsets for the wrong reasons.
I also believe that transient fuelling settings can still be active to add to the confusion.

[Naf]

Wow, i never knew i had to change all this...

I change my stock Tahoe injectors for LS2 injectors..

I changed the small pulse, IFR and Voltage...Is there anything else i should give attention to?
It is difficult going from ECM to PCM configuration since they use different values...

[Mort]

I have a set of Bosch EV14 flowing 624cc at 58 psi fuel rail pressure that I replaced a set of Multec II 44 lb/hr shorties with. It has taken a while to tune but they seem to be working very well and appear to be very consistent from bank to bank. They are out of a 2005 vette LS2 so I borrowed some tables from a vette file and set my IFR to a flat 7.56250 g/s. They work every bit as well as the Multec II and feel even better from a seat of the pants point of view. I am sure they are not perfectly tuned yet and I will have to keep climbing the learning curve, but I am very happy with the injectors and Jon's service.

One question I have is the injector timing in my tune is in ms and it is in degrees in the vette file. It is also the inverse of my tune. Is there a way to translate this between the tunes and is it worth doing?

I used the small pulse adjustment from the vette tune. The scale is different so I had to fudge it as best I could figure it out. Also it seems that the settings changed a little bit on their own after I saved the file. Magic I guess...LOL, not sure why that happened.

I also used the voltage correction from the 80 kPa row from the vette file and ran it from the top to bottom of my table. I am sure this is a guess on my part but felt it would be better than the stock values in my tune. My truck has a FPR on the fuel rail and a return fuel system and the 05 should have a returnless fuel system with a constant fuel pressure regulator in the tank. I am sure the settings I put in this table also changed just a little after I saved the file as well. I guess they have to meet some parameters set in the tune.

The same with the minimum injector pulse width, changed a little after saving.

These injectors ran very lean on start up and I had to do some AutoVe to get everything working nicely. I run COS3 and OLSD. Also the boost VE was way too rich and caused several P1514 codes. Seems to be fine now after I lowered the BoostVE. IDC is 79~80% vs 114% with the Multec IIs . Now to try turning up the wick a little. May have to have these re-sized again. :mrgreen:

Still very much a work in progress. :bangin:

[jonfic]

I have a set of Bosch EV14 flowing 624cc at 58 psi fuel rail pressure that I replaced a set of Multec II 44 lb/hr shorties with. It has taken a while to tune but they seem to be working very well and appear to be very consistent from bank to bank. They are out of a 2005 vette LS2 so I borrowed some tables from a vette file and set my IFR to a flat 7.56250 g/s. They work every bit as well as the Multec II and feel even better from a seat of the pants point of view. I am sure they are not perfectly tuned yet and I will have to keep climbing the learning curve, but I am very happy with the injectors and Jon's service.

One question I have is the injector timing in my tune is in ms and it is in degrees in the vette file. It is also the inverse of my tune. Is there a way to translate this between the tunes and is it worth doing?

I used the small pulse adjustment from the vette tune. The scale is different so I had to fudge it as best I could figure it out. Also it seems that the settings changed a little bit on their own after I saved the file. Magic I guess...LOL, not sure why that happened.

I also used the voltage correction from the 80 kPa row from the vette file and ran it from the top to bottom of my table. I am sure this is a guess on my part but felt it would be better than the stock values in my tune. My truck has a FPR on the fuel rail and a return fuel system and the 05 should have a returnless fuel system with a constant fuel pressure regulator in the tank. I am sure the settings I put in this table also changed just a little after I saved the file as well. I guess they have to meet some parameters set in the tune.

The same with the minimum injector pulse width, changed a little after saving.

These injectors ran very lean on start up and I had to do some AutoVe to get everything working nicely. I run COS3 and OLSD. Also the boost VE was way too rich and caused several P1514 codes. Seems to be fine now after I lowered the BoostVE. IDC is 79~80% vs 114% with the Multec IIs . Now to try turning up the wick a little. May have to have these re-sized again. :mrgreen:

Still very much a work in progress. :bangin:

hey Mort I forot to ask .. What year tune did you use? The 05 1 yr computer is a bear.. Ask Chuck COW..

[Mort]

Hey Jon ... I used a tune from a 05 Vette LS2.

[jonfic]

Hey Jon ... I used a tune from a 05 Vette LS2.

the more I think about it the more I think you should use a 06, maybe Howard or Chuck can chime in here, I think that is why its reversed. Can you grab a stock 06 file and see how it acts on your computer. That 05 is a 1 yr only PIA.. But, I think you got the tune pretty close, save it and try the 06.

[Redline Motorsports]

Not sure what you guys are mixing and matching but the correct injector data can be stretched into any of the IFR and offset tables to suit your needs. You just need to start at the correct reference point and extrapolate the data from that point.

You are using stock LS2 injectors in what?

Howard

[427]

Very good thread guys-