Installed 2009 E67 into '08 TBSS(no start)

[XLR8NSS]

Ok, so a little backround is in order here.

I have a 2008 Trailblazer SS. It uses the E67 and T42(4L70E trans). I will be installing a Magnacharger TVS1900 along with some other go fast goodies. :D Also, I'd really like to get a 6spd auto working in it.

I bought a 2009 ECM from a Cadillac CTS-V to see if I could get it to work in my TBSS. I figured it'd be a good ECM to use with factory blower support, a 6spd auto behind it, and PWM Electric fans(would like to install in my TBSS).

I went through the '09 tune and changed all the visible tables over to match my '08 stock tune. I also changed the VIN in the '09 to match the '08. I would like to change the BCC ID but, that is not a valid option for the E67 right now evidently.

When installed in the truck absolutely nothing happens. There are two codes that were thrown. I'm guessing I might need the accelerator pedal setup outta a CTSV for the first one? The second one might be because the CTSV comes with a 2 bar or higher MAP sensor. I did change the MAP settings in the '09 ECM but, maybe there are some things I can see with EFILive.

P2138 Accelerator Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance

P0108 Manifold Absolute Pressure/Barometric Pressure Circuit High

When you turn the key nothing happens. The engine doesn't try to crank at all. I along with a couple other people think it might be do to the P2138 code. What else could cause a no crank situation? I have the VATS disable patch applied with a full reflash. EFILive recognizes the ECM and TCM modules on the network.

Just putting this out there to see if anyone has any ideas.

Thanks

PS - I wanted to try the ECM swap to see what kinda issues might come up. It's a lot cheaper than swapping in a 6spd auto and it not working!! lol

[GMPX]

Should have posted here before buying the ECM.
The 2009 ECM will not work with the 2008 programs.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=9805

Cheers,
Ross

[ChipsByAl]

I read what XLR8NSS did differently, correct me if I am wrong Ross or XLR8NSS. It looks like he is using the CTS-V ECM and its software, not the 2008 software. He changed the 09 tables to reflect his 08 TBSS. I hope his thinking isn't flawed because I like the ideas. Possibly there is some other communication issue with another module keeping it a no start. You can also try to relearn the VATS timer. Check G1214 and G1215 for more info.
Al

[BigTex]

I read what XLR8NSS did differently, correct me if I am wrong Ross or XLR8NSS. It looks like he is using the CTS-V ECM and its software, not the 2008 software. He changed the 09 tables to reflect his 08 TBSS...
That is correct. He kept the 2009 OS on the 09 ECM, but changed the table values to match the settings from his 08 ECM. This first 'test' was to find out if he could make the 09 ECM / OS run his existing T42 transmission.

Are there any known differences in the E67 ECM pin connectors between vehicle lines or year models? Physically they are the same, but if the wires control different functions, then that would obviously be an issue.

[GMPX]

If that is what he meant then it still probably won't work. There is lots of platform specific settings in the calibrations, even different year models on the same platform can cause issues, such is the wonders of everything talking on the CAN bus.

Cheers,
Ross

[XLR8NSS]

Yeah, that is what I meant above.

I'd like to put a T43 controlled 6 spd auto in but, don't want to run into similiar issues where the T43 doesn't play with the existing electronics. I figured this would be a "test" to see if a different OS ECM would work with the existing T42 but, since it doesn't even start the test failed. lol

Ross - I know you've mentioned on here in the past that the T43 should work with the E67. I just don't want to go through swapping in an entire different transmission to find out there are issues. :D One person has done a similiar swap on a E38 pickup but, they had to install an existing E38/T43 controller/OS combo to get things working. There are no E67/T43 combos out there except for the new CTSV so I figured I'd try that.

Any other ideas fellas? Anyone know any GM calibrators? :D

[GMPX]

There is a number of vehicles running a E67 / T43 combo, so it is certainly possible, but as you see, the issue is there is no Trailblazer / 6spd combo to base everything off.
When you speak to a GM calibrator :hihi: ask them what is specific to a trans type in the ECM (just joking), it's probably not the fact that it is a T42 or T43, it will be some other platform specific issue.
I can see your problem is that you can't just 'test' a T43 in the vehicle without doing some major modifications.

Cheers,
Ross

[XLR8NSS]

Ross - I think you could make it work, drop what you're doing with EFILive and help me out!! :D

Man, I really love the 6L90E in my 2500HD, it is so damn smooth with over 600 flywheel hp @ 6100lbs. The 4L70E in the TBSS feels like it's gonna explode at WOT! lol

[XLR8NSS]

You can also try to relearn the VATS timer. Check G1214 and G1215 for more info.
Al

I applied the VATs disable patch, would those values make any difference if VATs was disabled? I also set it to type 2 and G1204-1206 are turned off.

Currently G1214 is 3 and G1215 is 600.

[Chuck CoW]

Yeah, that is what I meant above.

I'd like to put a T43 controlled 6 spd auto in but, don't want to run into similiar issues where the T43 doesn't play with the existing electronics. I figured this would be a "test" to see if a different OS ECM would work with the existing T42 but, since it doesn't even start the test failed. lol

Ross - I know you've mentioned on here in the past that the T43 should work with the E67. I just don't want to go through swapping in an entire different transmission to find out there are issues. :D One person has done a similiar swap on a E38 pickup but, they had to install an existing E38/T43 controller/OS combo to get things working. There are no E67/T43 combos out there except for the new CTSV so I figured I'd try that.

Any other ideas fellas? Anyone know any GM calibrators? :D

:hihi:

[ScarabEpic22]

Ive read all the discussions regarding swapping a 6spd trans into a TBSS and if there's a way to do it I want to know. There's a chance I might be getting one soon myself and yes the 4L70E shifts much better than the regular 4L60E in the regular TBs but the 6spds are just so much better. Plus 2 more gears is a bonus! Ill be watching this thread like a hawk, but I understand XLR8NSS's dilemma, to go through all the hassle of swapping a 6L90E in then not being able to make it work because of ECM/TCM comm probs would flat out suck.

[TBMSport]

Any update on resolving this? Is there NO way to add CTS-V's e67 tunes/parameters/OS can be 'flashed' onto our TBSS e67?

What is the actually changes in the '09 E67 that make is incompatible with older E67'?

Jesse

[TBMSport]

What about using a Hybrid E67 and adding T43 functions? Also, beside a harness change to reroute PIN outputs, could a simple e38 swap work to add the T43? Maybe a reflash of the BCM too?

[TBMSport]

I applied the VATs disable patch, would those values make any difference if VATs was disabled? I also set it to type 2 and G1204-1206 are turned off.

Currently G1214 is 3 and G1215 is 600.

Brainstorming over here. Also, another thought. I'm not fully up on the CAN aspect, but perhaps the ECM is needing a signal response from the T43 to move forward with processing anything (e.g. start the motor)? Or maybe that checksum CVN issue? :confused:

[Stealth97]

1. I'd get the 2 bar MAP sensor or whatever is required just to rule that out of the equation. You said the goal is to get the factory boosted OS working anyway, so you'll need that part once you do figure it out.

2. You alluded to the fact that maybe the wiring is different from a CTS-V and a TBSS. Why not get the alldata sheets and compare them? Rule out if anything is different with the PWM fans or the trans. Maybe that accounts for something right there.

3. What happens to a vehicle with VATS on this PCM? Does it just not crank, or does it still crank like in my 1997 with a 2002 LS1 PCM but not start? Are you experiencing VATS and you don't know it, but think the VATS patch is working? Maybe the patch isn't working or is corrupt.

4. What is different in the VATS from the CTS-V and the TBSS? Could you leave VATS alone possibly? Another thing to rule out from the equation.

5. I wonder if the PCM will make a no start condition with the wrong TCM attached. But why no code for it? Something else to think about.

Conclusion: If the pinouts for the CTS-V and the TBSS are the same, and the VATS patch is operational, why couldn't you swap in a 6L90E and use the 2009 PCM? Theoretically if the TCM is the issue on the no start condition, the correct TCM and trans would now solve that issue.

The PCM can only see things connected to it. Not what year vehicle you have (08 TBSS). Running the correct 2009 CTS-V OS in the correct PCM it came from should be just fine.

I'm thinking you need to think about 1-5 above, and once you think you have doublechecked everything, maybe connect a T43 and 6L90E from outside the vehicle (extension harness or something?). Just for a test run to see if you get the motor to fire over.

I don't doubt that you can somehow, someway, run a 2009 CTS-V PCM, in a 2008 TBSS, without TOO much hassle (like a wiring harness complete swap. Wires are wires are wires says me. Put the wires in the right spots and the PCM will think it is still in a 2009 CTS-V, right?). But a 6L90E MAY be required.

I hope this helps. I really am interested in your post and getting this working. One reason I stay away from the new stuff is all the restrictions and big stops encountered. On the older stuff someone ahead of me has done it and has perfected it or made it work somehow.

0.02

Stealth

[TBMSport]

I just got the GM Service catalog on CD...haven't installed it yet, but it covers up to '08 so I can get the TBSS schematics. Anyone got the pin layout of the CTS-Vs e67?

[TBMSport]

ok...where are my north NJ area tuners? Can the CTS-V e37 be programmed to remove boost so we can do a N/A engine through it? And can the VIN be changed to my vehicle while keeping all other things as is?

[XLR8NSS]

Hey guys, I don't have any updates right now, just been too busy to mess with anything. :(

Stealth97 - I think one thing I need to check also is a '09 Caddy accelerator pedal. Maybe that accelerator pedal code is keeping the engine from turning over. It would make sense to kill the starter if there was a pedal fault detected. Anyone got a '09 Caddy pedal to donate? :)

[XLR8NSS]

Also, I might have a 6spd auto close by that I could use for testing purposes. :D

[TBMSport]

That would make sense. Already got my eye on a 6spd auto. Can anyone confirm if the pedal of a regular CTS is different than a CTS-V?

[ScarabEpic22]

Well now that Ive got my 08 TBSS Im happy to test anything anyone needs me to. Still have to pay for my SS before I can do anything besides working on a tune and a CAI (plus mats, running boards, ect).

I think the first thing we need to figure out here is if we can get the CTS-V OS/ECM working on a TBSS. Doubt any wiring has changed between 07-09 TBSSs too. If we can get it running on the Caddy ECM and OS, hopefully bolting up a 6L90E is the easy part.

Thinking out loud again, what other E67/T43 combos are out there? I like the CTS-V but if there's another one that would be a better match (maybe something with an 07-08 OS so we can simply full flash it)?

[TBMSport]

As soon as you EFI tuners can confirm the T43 aspect can be integrated into our e67 without the boost, I'm pulling the trigger. But I need to know I have timely support when stuff isn't working so I'm not at the mercy of a local tuner who doesn't have a clue.

I already see the price of a CTS pedal is about 100...assuming the '08 is the same as the '09 and its all the same from v6 to v8.

[TBMSport]

oh wait...don't the Cadillac DTS and STS's run E67?:fluffy:

http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100&Itemid=82


Gen IV V8, V6, L4 E67 ECM - Stream S-E67
06-09 Cadillac DTS 4.6L
06-09 Cadillac STS 4.4L, 4.6L
06-09 Cadillac XLR 4.4L, 4.6L
07-09 Cadillac SRX 4.6L
08-09 Chevrolet Malibu 3.5L, 3.6L
06-08 Chevrolet Monte Carlo 3.5L, 3.9L
06-09 Pontiac G6 3.5L, 3.6L, 3.9L
07-09 Saturn Aura 3.6L
08 Buick Enclave 3.5L, 3.9L

Transmission T43 TCM - Stream S-T43
08-09 Cadillac CTS 6 Speed Auto
07-09 Cadillac STS 6 Speed Auto
07-09 Cadillac XLR 6 Speed Auto
8-09 Chevrolet Malibu 6 Speed Auto
07-09 Pontiac G6 6 Speed Auto
07-09 Saturn Aura 6 Speed Auto
08-09 Buick Enclave 6 Speed Auto
07-09 Cadillac SRX 6 Speed Auto
07-09 GMC Arcadia 6 Speed Auto

[TBMSport]

Ok...I got the ECM E67 TCM T43...let's DO THIS GUYS! lol:rockon: :cucumber:

Let's make a deal...someone get this ECM issue handled so I can move to the next stage and you got a harness and kit on me in it for ya! :cheers:

[MN C5]

Also, I might have a 6spd auto close by that I could use for testing purposes. :D

What are your plans for a wiring harness? I'm hoping you can run your stock ECM program with the TCM. I installed a ECM program from a Manual Tranny and mine still shifted as directed. The 4.03 and your all wheel drive will make your TBSS a rocket ship..

I've got a harness that John from SpearTech made for me that plugs into the tranny and has pig tails to go right to the pcm. I'm not going to use it if you'd like to give that a whirl.

[TBMSport]

:doh2: that GM has a generic TCM tune in the E67 that will automatically sense and direct trans operations based upon feedback from what TCM it's plugged into. Maybe it assumes it's a manual tranny if no tranny is sensed. *getting excited*

The guy at Speartech did tell me that one thing he is confident of, is that we TBSS's will lose our cruise control feature because it's controlled by the BCM. For this reason as well as the fact that I want to add the manumatic shifter, I know a new harness will be necessary for my application

[Stealth97]

:doh2: that GM has a generic TCM tune in the E67 that will automatically sense and direct trans operations based upon feedback from what TCM it's plugged into. Maybe it assumes it's a manual tranny if no tranny is sensed. *getting excited*

The guy at Speartech did tell me that one thing he is confident of, is that we TBSS's will lose our cruise control feature because it's controlled by the BCM. For this reason as well as the fact that I want to add the manumatic shifter, I know a new harness will be necessary for my application

You say a new harness. Why? Fuel injectors take the same amount of wires, as does most items. I could go on and on down the list.

Why not just add the wires to your harness to make it the same as an 09 CTS-V harness? That seems simpler or is that what you will end up doing anyway and that is just a simpler way of saying it over the computer forum posts?

[TBMSport]

You say a new harness. Why? Fuel injectors take the same amount of wires, as does most items. I could go on and on down the list.

Why not just add the wires to your harness to make it the same as an 09 CTS-V harness? That seems simpler or is that what you will end up doing anyway and that is just a simpler way of saying it over the computer forum posts?

The simple answer...I DON'T KNOW!!!:help2: Therefore I always 'assume' a worst case scenario, so I will not be surprised later.

As a layman with regards to this OS and tuning stuff, it seems to me that the easiest scenario is that I could jam a T43/6L in the truck and slap a CTS-V -43 harness in there and call it a day. It seems to me that these specific potential mix or match ecm/tcm conflicts can be relatively easily confirmed by someone more familiar with the inner workings of the E67.

BUT, no one has confirmed if the new boogey man '09 OS system means different PIN outputs, hence useless harness. :secret: I doubt it, but I'd like to be sure before wasting time/money on that harness. Is a T43 program feature already built into our E67? If not, can it be programmed in, unlocked, or does it just need the harness to connect to the proper PIN? If that's not possible, will it require a STS or Enclave E67 (as they have the the T43) and can the engine parameters be reflashed for LS2 rather than Northstar and V6? Second, though less or a priority, I'm concerned about the cruise control aspect that Speartech brought up. Thirdly, as I said, I want that manumatic shifter! :rockon:

If it's a matter of time and money, let me know. It is my goal to A) knock this out on my truck. B) Do a tech article for a magazine. C) If extra parts are needed beyond a reflash and stuff readily available from GM, make a kit to sell other TBSS owners.

Plain and simple...I HATE THIS 4L65!!!! :bad:

[ScarabEpic22]

You mean 4L70E man. :D

And the E67 as an ECM really has no say in what TCM is hooked up to it, pretty sure it could care less if its a T42 or T43. But Im not familiar with the code so I cant tell you if there are certain enable/disable flags built into specific OSs that dictate manual vs auto and 4 or 6 spd autos.

I think someone needs to check the pinouts on the 09 CTS-V connectors and change a TBSS harness to match it. Once this is done and we know what happens (if anything), we can check that box off and try other things. I cant afford a test ECM, Im saving my pennies for an E67/T42 combo so I can start tuning and not be extremely worried about losing my warranty.

[TBMSport]

You mean 4L70E man. :D

And the E67 as an ECM really has no say in what TCM is hooked up to it, pretty sure it could care less if its a T42 or T43. But Im not familiar with the code so I cant tell you if there are certain enable/disable flags built into specific OSs that dictate manual vs auto and 4 or 6 spd autos.

I think someone needs to check the pinouts on the 09 CTS-V connectors and change a TBSS harness to match it. Once this is done and we know what happens (if anything), we can check that box off and try other things. I cant afford a test ECM, Im saving my pennies for an E67/T42 combo so I can start tuning and not be extremely worried about losing my warranty.

Who here can do that?:welcome: Or does anyone at least have a wiring schematic of the CTS-V?

[TBMSport]

http://www.public.asu.edu/~pheanis/documents/VBI_CLASS2.pdf :secret:

[ScarabEpic22]

What exactly are you referencing in the article? All I got out of it was that GM made a device that interfaces with the vehicle comms (just like FlashScan does)????

So back to the question, who has access to pinouts for an 08/09 TBSS and an 09 CTS-V?

[TBMSport]

I should have noted...I spoke with a few ECM guys and they were explaining that our TBSS Class 2 Bus BCM system is the biggest problem regarding any CAN based 6L80E E37 swap. Apparently the T43 operates on this SWCAN system and therefore requires an intermediate computer adapter if it is to be used with our system.

[ScarabEpic22]

I see, havent heard that before...anyone know if the other E67/T43 combos have said adapter? I mean we have a weird CAN/Class 2 bus system already.

[TBMSport]

Shoot me your email Scarab. I got the wiring schematic of the cts

[ScarabEpic22]

Cool, sending PM now.

Now if we can get an 08/09 TBSS wiring diag..

[BigTex]

You might see if JAY4SPEED can get you the wiring pinouts / diagrams for those ECMs. He has offered up similar TBSS diagrams on the TBSS forums.

[ScarabEpic22]

Ill do that Richard, thanks for the tip.

[ScarabEpic22]

Ive got an 07 TBSS wiring diagram that will work (99% sure GM didnt change anything from 07-08 and probably 09 too).

I need 09 CTS-V ECM and TCM pinouts, and if anyone has 07-09 TBSS TCM pinouts that'd be appreciated too.

[TBMSport]

e-mailed it to you.

[ScarabEpic22]

In the file you emailed me there is just 1 connector pinout man, there are 3 connectors on the E67 that I need to look at.

Ill start going through and match the circuits, pins, and connectors up, when you can get the other 2 connectors to me that'd be great!

Man its annoying not having my GM Techline software working anymore grrrrr.

Update:
Ok so just looking at the 1 blue ECM connector on an 09 CTS-V vs the TBSS blue ECM connector I see why you get nothing happening when you hit the key. I dont think Ive seen a single pin on the CTS-V calibration that lines up with the TBSS cal, the throttle pedal sensor 1 voltage is pin 47 on the V and the same pin on the SS isnt even used. Hate to say it but this isnt looking too good right now. What we need is to get an 08 OS with an 08 6L80E (or 6L90E) ECM/TCM combo from whatever car is closest to the SS (aka like a fullsize truck) and get the pinouts for that. Id be more help but I dont have Techline to get these from.

[joecar]

What happened to Techline, does their server not respond anymore...?

[ScarabEpic22]

What happened to Techline, does their server not respond anymore...?

No idea, I have an old DVD from late 04 that worked great with my 02 TB but now that Ive got an 08 TBSS and am looking for 09 CTS-V stuff its not there ha. Im not cool enough to have a Techline subscription for the online stuff...:doh2:

[joecar]

It is way too expensive.

[TBMSport]

Helms told will give you a 48hr online for $75 or so.

[ScarabEpic22]

Helms told will give you a 48hr online for $75 or so.

Im going to buy the 08 TBSS factory service manuals either DVD or hardcopy soon, $75 for 48hrs better be for ALL of Helms service manuals sheesh!

[TBMSport]

For the money...get the full GM service manual DVD for $400...you'll thank me later when you need to cross reference other model years or vehicles.

[joecar]

+1 on the DVD... it is good value if you own multiple cars (covers all service manuals for all models from1998 thru 2008).

[ScarabEpic22]

Thats what the TechLine DVD I had before, but I bought it off eBay in 04/05 for $35 shipped. Couldnt beat the deal, too bad the seller stopped selling them shortly after I bought mine. And thats the DVD I was hoping to buy, now just have to come up with $400 which is the hard part.

[JAY4SPEED]

Erik is there anything in specific that you're looking for that I can help you with?

[ScarabEpic22]

Erik is there anything in specific that you're looking for that I can help you with?

Thanks Jay but I think TBMSport has got it all worked out now. Using an extra module to keep cruise control has been the hardest part I think, now all we have to do is see if the stock SS cal will shift with a 6spd attached and the gears changed to 6 from 4 (its somewhere in the ECM file).

Just started my summer job, I barely have time to do anything let alone work on my rides. But I need the $$ so I can work on the rides so its a necessary evil I guess haha,

[55chevdelray]

Thanks Jay but I think TBMSport has got it all worked out now. Using an extra module to keep cruise control has been the hardest part I think, now all we have to do is see if the stock SS cal will shift with a 6spd attached and the gears changed to 6 from 4 (its somewhere in the ECM file).

Just started my summer job, I barely have time to do anything let alone work on my rides. But I need the $$ so I can work on the rides so its a necessary evil I guess haha,

Erik, I've been following your thread and was wondering if you worked anythign out with the E67 and T43 combo?

Brian

[ScarabEpic22]

Erik, I've been following your thread and was wondering if you worked anythign out with the E67 and T43 combo?

Brian

Nothing yet has come to light AFAIK, Ive been waay to busy to tune or even log for that matter.

Id PM member TBMSport and ask him, he's working on a way for the TBSS owners to do this swap and might have some insight.

[MN C5]

I'd go with a complete engine harness from a E38 with a 6L80 plug end and the E38 and see what doesn't work. The BCM doesn't need to have a matching OS or serial #. The gauges and fuel pump are the only problem area's you should have to sort out.