Supercharger with N2O tuning help

[brobradh77]

This is my tune I got for my Radix with N20..I am running a 50 shot right now but will up it to a 75..I am concerned about a couple of things...I feel the timing is off..I know nothing but at WOT I am seeing 16* down to 12...I know its coming from IAT reduction but I feel it is taking to much and I need to throw more timing at it...Also my shifting points is 1->2 6000 and 2->3 at 5800 I would like to bump them up to 6200 and 6000.. and I'm running a bit rich 10.8ish

Any opinions would be great..I feel the tune is too conservative..Thanks in advance

[MICK]

I have seen a few USA tunes done like this.

D0940 and D0945 should take care off your shift rpm.

Do you have any logs of when your up it on the n2o?

Can I have a looks see?

Cheers

Mick

[brobradh77]

when I get home for lunch I'll post up a log. My tuner is awesome he is just busy busy so I was hoping not to bug him over this. I am a rookie so I need some guidance so I dont blow my truck up...lol

[brobradh77]

there are 2 WOT sections..the first is with out N20 and the 2nd one I am spraying

[brobradh77]

bump

[5.7ute]

You are losing timing to KR under WOT so I would be looking at that first. First blip is up to 7 degrees KR down to 3 degrees KR for the last run.
As for actual spark advance give the engine what it wants, not what the internet says. You may only need 14 degrees to give you best power with a few degrees for safety.

[brobradh77]

You are losing timing to KR under WOT so I would be looking at that first. First blip is up to 7 degrees KR down to 3 degrees KR for the last run.
As for actual spark advance give the engine what it wants, not what the internet says. You may only need 14 degrees to give you best power with a few degrees for safety.

yeah I saw that..when i sprayed it almost all went away..fnny thing is the night befre I tested it and got no KR whats so ever so why it popped up in those 2 runs i dunno.

I'm just looking for guidance..I dont even know where to begin to add timing i.e. RPM range vs. TP% and I dont like how much timing is pulled vs. IAT's and i would like to change that but I do not know what is a safe amount to pull.

[5.7ute]

yeah I saw that..when i sprayed it almost all went away..fnny thing is the night befre I tested it and got no KR whats so ever so why it popped up in those 2 runs i dunno.

I'm just looking for guidance..I dont even know where to begin to add timing i.e. RPM range vs. TP% and I dont like how much timing is pulled vs. IAT's and i would like to change that but I do not know what is a safe amount to pull.

Spark in these PCM's is related to cylinder airmass/RPM and not TP%. Check out the B5913 high octane spark table.
If you open up the {B5913-5914}high low timing_spark advance maf map & spark retard map & plot your log against it you will see exactly which cells are being used, which cells have KR & need timing reduced etc.
Your logs are too short & dont cover enough variables for me to make an educated guess at your spark IAT correction. But I would not be adding timing anywhere until I found & rectified the KR that you are already seeing. Since it appears you are already past the knock threshold, timing will need to be reduced further (or fuel added, sometimes both)to see if the KR is genuine or a mechanically induced(false knock)

[brobradh77]

Spark in these PCM's is related to cylinder airmass/RPM and not TP%. Check out the B5913 high octane spark table.
If you open up the {B5913-5914}high low timing_spark advance maf map & spark retard map & plot your log against it you will see exactly which cells are being used, which cells have KR & need timing reduced etc.
Your logs are too short & dont cover enough variables for me to make an educated guess at your spark IAT correction. But I would not be adding timing anywhere until I found & rectified the KR that you are already seeing. Since it appears you are already past the knock threshold, timing will need to be reduced further (or fuel added, sometimes both)to see if the KR is genuine or a mechanically induced(false knock)

Thanks so my next questionis obviously how do you plot your log against those tables to see what cells are being used? Will the cells highlight?

[brobradh77]

i think i have it figured out..when i highlight a section of my log I can open my tuing file and it highlights the 3 or so cells being used at that time correct?

[5.7ute]

Thanks so my next questionis obviously how do you plot your log against those tables to see what cells are being used? Will the cells highlight?

Yes. The easiest way is to highlight a section in the scan tool chart page by left clicking & dragging over the section you want. Then when you look in the tune file at the tables the cells hit in that section will be highlighted. See pic attached.
For this function to work the pids you log must match the linked pids in the table axis.

[brobradh77]

Thanks alot..I appreciate the help..I am trying to learn this...I am surpirsed that I only see a couple of cells highlight..I figured there would be a bunch...So I guess to fine tune it I only need to mess with the highlighted cells? If so do I need to adjust all three timing charts High/low octane and IATs or can I just change one?

[5.7ute]

i think i have it figured out..when i highlight a section of my log I can open my tuing file and it highlights the 3 or so cells being used at that time correct?

Yes, thats it. Sorry about the delayed reply. Phone was ringing off the hook while I was trying to type it.

[brobradh77]

thats ok..I am glad your helping me.....I have alot of money in my truck and i want to learn to tweak it with out bugging my tuner everytime i want to try something...I am hoping i can learn the basics like playing with timing to get the most out of my truck.

[joecar]

Make sure that scantool pid units are the same as the tunetool table axis pid units (e.g. both kPa).

[joecar]

i think i have it figured out..when i highlight a section of my log I can open my tuing file and it highlights the 3 or so cells being used at that time correct?Post sreenshots of scantool chart and tunetool able.

[brobradh77]

No Nitrous WOT
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/noN20.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/NoN20IAT.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/noN20lowoctane.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/noN20HighOctane.jpg

[5.7ute]

Thanks alot..I appreciate the help..I am trying to learn this...I am surpirsed that I only see a couple of cells highlight..I figured there would be a bunch...So I guess to fine tune it I only need to mess with the highlighted cells? If so do I need to adjust all three timing charts High/low octane and IATs or can I just change one?

You quite often need to smooth in the surrounding cells. Also when trying to maximise the spark it pays to log the ASPARK pid. This will tell you what weighted amount of the high/low table is being used in the spark calculation. This is necessary to try & ensure you are not raising the high octane map while the final spark is being calculated from the low table.(due to previous knock etc)

[brobradh77]

N20 run
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/N2Olog.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/N2OLow.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/N2OIAT.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l111/brobradh77/N2OHigh.jpg

[brobradh77]

You quite often need to smooth in the surrounding cells. Also when trying to maximise the spark it pays to log the ASPARK pid. This will tell you what weighted amount of the high/low table is being used in the spark calculation. This is necessary to try & ensure you are not raising the high octane map while the final spark is being calculated from the low table.(due to previous knock etc)


ok i will enact that for next time. So it tells you you how it calculates final spark? Will it doit in lamens terms?

[brobradh77]

NM I figured it out..My dashboard was in degrees C while my F9 data was in degrees F fixed it all to show F

[5.7ute]

ok i will enact that for next time. So it tells you you how it calculates final spark? Will it doit in lamens terms?

No. Spark has many modifiers that result in the final calculation. It will just tell you the percentage weighting between the high & low spark table. 1.0 means only the high octane table is being used. 0.5 means half the difference between the two tables is being subtracted. 0.0 means the low table is being used.
Spark, especially in your combo should not be messed around with until you fully understand the system. Even then changes should be kept small & logged through various conditions while checking for knock etc.

[5.7ute]

Make sure that scantool pid units are the same as the tunetool table axis pid units (e.g. both kPa).

Good catch Joe:fluffy:

[joecar]

Thanks Mick... that one is permanently burned on my forehead... :D

[brobradh77]

No. Spark has many modifiers that result in the final calculation. It will just tell you the percentage weighting between the high & low spark table. 1.0 means only the high octane table is being used. 0.5 means half the difference between the two tables is being subtracted. 0.0 means the low table is being used.
Spark, especially in your combo should not be messed around with until you fully understand the system. Even then changes should be kept small & logged through various conditions while checking for knock etc.


Thanks for the quick tutorial..I'll have to go out and re log it with the new PID's and see what it says.


Good catch Joe:fluffy:

LOL.Thanks..I'm trying to catch all the bugs.

[SSpdDmon]

Are you running pump gas?!?!? I don't know what kind of setup you have or how much boost, but as a reference - I run 7psi peak and don't usually push timing above 15~16*. If you're running a 50-shot on top of that, you're probably pushing too much timing. Isn't the rule of thumb -1* for every 25 hp of N20 added? That might explain the KR if you're commanding 17* on a boosted setup with a 50-shot.

Then again, I might be a little off here. Anyone else???

[brobradh77]

Are you running pump gas?!?!? I don't know what kind of setup you have or how much boost, but as a reference - I run 7psi peak and don't usually push timing above 15~16*. If you're running a 50-shot on top of that, you're probably pushing too much timing. Isn't the rule of thumb -1* for every 25 hp of N20 added? That might explain the KR if you're commanding 17* on a boosted setup with a 50-shot.

Then again, I might be a little off here. Anyone else???

I run 93 Octane Pump gas.. I Usually see about 7.5#'s of boost w/2.8 pulley....218/224 .563/.568 114 LSA cam, meth kit with WW fluid, Long Tube headers, and right now a 50 shot but plan on upping it to a 75 shot in the next weeks.

I was thinking about making the meth to water conc. 50/50 instead of the 60/40 in washer fluid by addding that heet to it. but was under the impression i would have to change the tuning if I did that also.