converter will not lock under wot

[camcojb]

it definitely locks, and is fine at anything under 100% tp. But at wot if it down shifts it unlocks and will not lock again.

I can get it to work properly for 1-3 times if I reload a different tcm tune, or usually if I just reload the same tune. But it always goes back to not locking. If I get it locked, and then go wot at a speed that doesn't allow downshifting, then it will remain locked throughout the run. But if it's completely locked in say 5th gear at 50 mph or so and I go wot, it downshifts and will not re-lock at any speed.

I've tried everything I can think of. I've lowered the locking to super low mph's also, but no matter what, if it downshifts it's over. Like I said it will work fine a time or two or three after a flash, just long enough for me to think it's fixed, but then you jump in the truck the next time and no lock. Does it in normal and tow/haul.

Again, this is only at wot, no problems locking at lower tp%. I've reset taps and it's hit or miss as to whether it will work or not. This is on a high power tune with twins, SCIV and 1058 billet converter, LMM with 6 speed.

Final question since I know Mike L will ask, but is there any way to know if the tcc is being commanded in the EFI Live software? I saw a pid but it does not work as far as I can tell. I do not have access to a Tech II. I do not think there's any issues with the trans or converter, they work perfect except for this one glitch. It never fails to lock at normal or spirited driving. It's like once you get above a certain power level there's a table in the tcm that says "hell no, not going to lock it............. " I've heard this is an issue on high powered trucks, but as of yet I have not heard of anyone solving it.



Jody

[vortecfcar]

Jody,

I have a log file sitting in my email box from a customer with an issue I fear is similar to yours. I have a quick question for you just so that we're on the same page.

Have you tried raising your minimum TCC apply?

My thought is that the Alllison has a table that references TCC slip to PWM gain in order to figure out how much pressure it should apply to the converter clutch in order to get a clean, but not harsh lock. If you downshift under WOT you may put the TCC slip axis beyond the factory limits or into a new range where lockup is simply abandoned. My first plan of attack on this truck was going to be to raise minimum lockup pressure to see if we can get the converter to lock quickly before it goes into the dead zone. Second would be to see if there's a way we can aviod converter unlock on certain shifts altoghether.

I still have to look over the logs when I get to my other computer.

Nick

[camcojb]

Jody,

I have a log file sitting in my email box from a customer with an issue I fear is similar to yours. I have a few questions for you just so that we're on the same page.

Have you tried raising your minimum TCC apply?

My thought is that the Alllison has a table that references TCC slip to PWM gain in order to figure out how much pressure it should apply to the converter clutch in order to get a clean, but not harsh lock. If you downshift under WOT you may put the TCC slip axis beyond the factory limits or into a new range where lockup is simply abandoned. My first plan of attack on this truck was going to be to raise minimum lockup pressure to see if we can get the converter to lock quickly before it goes into the dead zone. Second would be to see if there's a way we can aviod converter unlock on certain shifts altoghether.

I still have to look over the logs when I get to my other computer.

Nick


no, raised the maximum which I thought helped, but after 3 wot datalogs it wasn't locking anymore.
What you're thinking would go exactly with what is happening. I'll give it a shot and see what happens. My stock tune was zeroed out on the minimum table everywhere.

The only way I've been able to keep it locked every time at wot is to not let it downshift, which is easy to do. However, that's certainly not an ideal trans tune on the street.

Thanks Nick, I'll post back.

Jody

[OSUBeaver]

How about when you do a boosted 4wd launch from a dead stop?

[camcojb]

How about when you do a boosted 4wd launch from a dead stop?

nope, same issue. It will lock sometimes a run or two after flashing the tcm tune in, but then stops locking altogether.

Jody

[OSUBeaver]

Not meant to be a dumb question, but do you mean "stops locking" like won't lock at any speed RPM, etc..... or just locks late?

Or does it just spin like a mother from a stop like mine......... I hit 3500rpm on the 1-2 shift, 3700 right before it locks, then it shifts into 3rd and we're off to the races.

Copilot doesn't do poop..... race mode or not.

[IdahoRob]

This is a problem for some trucks, and not just the LMM's I have a customer with a 700-800HP LB7 that is having the same issue.

The TCM does see too much slip and will not lock the converter to save it self from breakage. I have tried different settings on Min. duty cycle and ramp rate for him without sucess. I'd try to raise the lockup to coinside with the 2-3 shift. This may allow the lockup when the defuel is in effect on the shift.

My truck shifts perfect and the converter locks everytime, so I can't test theorys on it. Need more test subjects with big brass ones. The customer above, hooked up a manual lockup switch. This works to lock the converter, but throughs codes and you have no reverse until they are cleared.

[camcojb]

Not meant to be a dumb question, but do you mean "stops locking" like won't lock at any speed RPM, etc..... or just locks late?

Or does it just spin like a mother from a stop like mine......... I hit 3500rpm on the 1-2 shift, 3700 right before it locks, then it shifts into 3rd and we're off to the races.

Copilot doesn't do poop..... race mode or not.

when it doesn't work which is more often than not, from a 4wd boosted launch it will not lock at all, at any speed. It always locks in normal or even "spirited" driving, as long as you are not wot. If it is locked at say 55 mph and you go wot, it unlocks at the downshift and never re-locks, again at any speed. Easy to see on the datalogs as the rpms on the 3-4 or 4-5 wot upshift only drop to 2800-2900 rpms after the shift instead of the normal 2500 rpms they would be at if the converter was locked. It also really slows the truck down.

Jody

[IdahoRob]

Jerry yours is trying to lock in 2nd gear, but can't and blows threw the converter until it shifts into 3rd. This is what it looks like to me in the logs. I'll work you up a tcm tune to see about locking the converter on the 2/3 shift.

[camcojb]

This is a problem for some trucks, and not just the LMM's I have a customer with a 700-800HP LB7 that is having the same issue.

The TCM does see too much slip and will not lock the converter to save it self from breakage. I have tried different settings on Min. duty cycle and ramp rate for him without sucess. I'd try to raise the lockup to coinside with the 2-3 shift. This may allow the lockup when the defuel is in effect on the shift.

My truck shifts perfect and the converter locks everytime, so I can't test theorys on it. Need more test subjects with big brass ones. The customer above, hooked up a manual lockup switch. This works to lock the converter, but throughs codes and you have no reverse until they are cleared.

yeah, this 1058 is a bit looser I think than some of the other converters like the 1057, at least that's what I was told. That plus making even more power/torque gets the slip factor up there.

[camcojb]

Jerry yours is trying to lock in 2nd gear, but can't and blows threw the converter until it shifts into 3rd. This is what it looks like to me in the logs. I'll work you up a tcm tune to see about locking the converter on the 2/3 shift.

I'm not sure how to tell, but I don't think my truck with this converter has ever locked until 4th gear when doing a 1/4 mile run, even before twins. I haven't been able to tell, but the rpms after the shifts on 2-3 never drop below 3400 rpms or so. Only going into 4th does it drop down to 2500 rpms as well as into fifth. Then again I haven't figured out the gear ratios, but it sure doesn't look like mine has ever locked before 4th gear at wot during a 1/4 mile run.

Jody

[OSUBeaver]

I meant to post this here, not in the other thread

Looks at the little drop in RPM right before 3rd gear Jody. That's what mine does

[camcojb]

here's mine on the old stock turbo at 12.75 and 108 mph. In third gear the lowest the rpms get is 3400 rpms or so, then it upshifts to 4th and drops to 2500 rpms and the truck flys.

Click on the image again to get it big enough to read the graph.

[camcojb]

ok, tried adding back in torque reduction (50% max) and bumped the minimum tcc duty cycle at 87.5 and 100% tp to 40. Now it always locks. Of course I've said this before, but it appears to be working. I went wot at least a dozen times at all different speeds, in and out of tow/haul, always locked.

Thanks to Rob and Nick for the help. I guess I should go back and disable torque reduction to see if it was the min tcc table that made the change, or vice versa, or maybe a combo of both. But since it's working I don't feel like changing it. :)

Jody

[IdahoRob]

Good, glad that worked. Now lets see if I can get Jerry's to do the same thing.

[OSUBeaver]

so change minimum duty cycle, not max.....correct?

[IdahoRob]

The stock LLY/LBZ max duty is at 97% so I can't see how the LMM and LBZ would hurt doing the same. Then change the min. duty cycle to what Jody has. I believe your requested torque is all ready correct Jerry.

[camcojb]

so change minimum duty cycle, not max.....correct?

I moved minimum for 87.5 and 100% tp to 40, and then raised max at the same points only 10 numbers to 75 (instead of the factory 65).

Jody

[OSUBeaver]

So Rob,

You are saying load the race TCM back in and make the TCC duty cycle changes? Right now, I'm running almost stock..... 89% max torque reduction, the requested torque table is stock, etc.

[IdahoRob]

The tcm tune I sent you Jerry, not your stock. Hold off for now if you want me to make sure of what you have, doing yard work and getting on here during beer runs, lol.

I'll work you up a proper tcm tune in the AM.

[rcr1978]

I thought that everybody said the TCC solenoid would smoke if apply percentage was raised on the LBZ/LMM ? Oh well I guess it's just a solenoid replace when toast. Has anybody at EFI ever mentioned getting us a usable pid to log what the convertor is actualy doing like apply percentage? Also stock to mildly modified trucks are seeing the same issues at least on my LMM and a budies bone stock LMM. I always thought it was just the junk LMM TCM OS, I wonder if it would run on a LBZ TCM OS? But we can't full flash OS's on the six speed TCM yet even if we could who knows what would happen may not even run?

[IdahoRob]

I thought that everybody said the TCC solenoid would smoke if apply percentage was raised on the LBZ/LMM ? Oh well I guess it's just a solenoid replace when toast. Has anybody at EFI ever mentioned getting us a usable pid to log what the convertor is actualy doing like apply percentage? Also stock to mildly modified trucks are seeing the same issues at least on my LMM and a budies bone stock LMM. I always thought it was just the junk LMM TCM OS, I wonder if it would run on a LBZ TCM OS? But we can't full flash OS's on the six speed TCM yet even if we could who knows what would happen may not even run?

LBZ tcm in a LMM will run and shift, but causes all kind of other crazy stuff.

The max duty cycle on 5 speeds is 97% so I do not see any reason for the 6 speeds to have problems there. Remember it is the Max setting and doesn't necesserly go there.

[jpowel29]

Jody,

Have you tried raising your minimum TCC apply?

Nick

Nick,

I went into the TCC min apply/duty cycle table (which was factory set to zero) and increased it to 45% (and applied some smoothing to avoid knocking my teeth out on the steering wheel). I also went into the TCC max apply/duty cylce table (which was factory set to 65.62%) and increased these to 95%. The data logs only show max duty of 65.62% even after my changes. Max TCC Pressure apply solenoid commanded shows 152psi when max duty cycle is attained.

These changes helped TC Clutch lock up initially but as was posted earlier in this thread, it did not keep it from unlocking. Once it unlocks, it will not re-lock due to the clutch slippage rpms (my educated guess here but it looks to be the case in my data logs). From here the slippage continues, heats the trans fluid, and will eventually throw a P0741 DTC. Does this during normal street driving (up through all 6 gears) and also did the same thing on the dyno (locking out 4th gear). CoPilot does not seem to prevent TCC unlock (even in race mode/TH). Going to try a different CoPilot control box. Trans/converter will be coming out. Going to discuss symptoms/solutions with trans builder and converter manufacturer.

My converter has a mech diode (no stator). This may be adding to the excessive slippage rpms.

[IdahoRob]

Nick,

I went into the TCC min apply/duty cycle table (which was factory set to zero) and increased it to 45% (and applied some smoothing to avoid knocking my teeth out on the steering wheel). I also went into the TCC max apply/duty cylce table (which was factory set to 65.62%) and increased these to 95%. The data logs only show max duty of 65.62% even after my changes. Max TCC Pressure apply solenoid commanded shows 152psi when max duty cycle is attained.

These changes helped TC Clutch lock up initially but as was posted earlier in this thread, it did not keep it from unlocking. Once it unlocks, it will not re-lock due to the clutch slippage rpms (my educated guess here but it looks to be the case in my data logs). From here the slippage continues, heats the trans fluid, and will eventually throw a P0741 DTC. Does this during normal street driving (up through all 6 gears) and also did the same thing on the dyno (locking out 4th gear). CoPilot does not seem to prevent TCC unlock (even in race mode/TH). Going to try a different CoPilot control box. Trans/converter will be coming out. Going to discuss symptoms/solutions with trans builder and converter manufacturer.

My converter has a mech diode (no stator). This may be adding to the excessive slippage rpms.

I'm guessing you have converter issues with this example.

[jpowel29]

I will keep everyone posted. This has not been as much fun as I'd hoped but I'll get there eventually. Looks like my old converter will be going back in.

[vortecfcar]

Damn John, I was really hoping for a miracle on that one. I anxious to hear what your trans man says about the converter.


Thanks for the update,

Nick

[camcojb]

Nick,

mine seems to be locking now with increased min tcc duty cycle at 87.5 and 100% tp, went up to 40. Also increased maximum in the same area to 90%. Added some torque reduction and it now locks in 4th and 5th on a 1/4 mile run. It will not lock in 2nd or third though which would be worth 2-3 tenths it appears from rolling locked datalogs where it doesn't downshift and is locked before going wot, so it holds.

I just wish it could lock in 2nd and 3rd gear also for a boosted launch at the track, and I'm inclined to believe the looseness of my 1058 is probably an issue. Unless Ross can find a TCM control map to ignore slippage and lock anyway.

Jody

[jpowel29]

Damn John, I was really hoping for a miracle on that one. I anxious to hear what your trans man says about the converter.


Thanks for the update,

Nick

Nick,

I have been a little timid on the initial adjustments. I am still tweaking on it (I plan on another test drive tonight). I have everything laid out in a big excel spreadsheet to help me keep it all straight. I am now re-working a little on the TCC Apply & Release Speeds to better navigate away from where I THINK I am seeing the TCC dis-engage on the data logs. I'll let you know.

John

[rcr1978]

Nick,

I went into the TCC min apply/duty cycle table (which was factory set to zero) and increased it to 45% (and applied some smoothing to avoid knocking my teeth out on the steering wheel). I also went into the TCC max apply/duty cylce table (which was factory set to 65.62%) and increased these to 95%. The data logs only show max duty of 65.62% even after my changes. Max TCC Pressure apply solenoid commanded shows 152psi when max duty cycle is attained.

These changes helped TC Clutch lock up initially but as was posted earlier in this thread, it did not keep it from unlocking. Once it unlocks, it will not re-lock due to the clutch slippage rpms (my educated guess here but it looks to be the case in my data logs). From here the slippage continues, heats the trans fluid, and will eventually throw a P0741 DTC. Does this during normal street driving (up through all 6 gears) and also did the same thing on the dyno (locking out 4th gear). CoPilot does not seem to prevent TCC unlock (even in race mode/TH). Going to try a different CoPilot control box. Trans/converter will be coming out. Going to discuss symptoms/solutions with trans builder and converter manufacturer.

My converter has a mech diode (no stator). This may be adding to the excessive slippage rpms.



What pid did you use to log the duty cycle?

[jpowel29]

PID Caption - TCCDC
PID Description - Torque Converter Clutch Duty Cycle

I also log
TCCPCSCP - TCC Pressure Control Solenoid Commaned Pres
TCCSLIP - Transmission Converter Clutch Slip Speed
TP - Throttle Position
TFT - Fluid Temp
TIS/TOS - Trans input/output shaft speed
GEAR
Engine RPM

[jpowel29]

My converter has a mech diode (no stator). This may be adding to the excessive slippage rpms.[/QUOTE]

After re-reading this part of my post I wish to edit the part that makes no sense. My converter does have a stator...it is just missing the sprag. It is a spragless design (not a mech diode either) which I believe could be partially responsible for the excessive slippage and extra heat. It does not help me explain why the lock-up will suddenly dis-engage and then not re-engage however.

[rcr1978]

Thanks, the duty cycle one must be new I have not seen it yet was it included in the last release?

[jpowel29]

I believe that I am running build #84

[camcojb]

My converter has a mech diode (no stator). This may be adding to the excessive slippage rpms.

After re-reading this part of my post I wish to edit the part that makes no sense. My converter does have a stator...it is just missing the sprag. It is a spragless design (not a mech diode either) which I believe could be partially responsible for the excessive slippage and extra heat. It does not help me explain why the lock-up will suddenly dis-engage and then not re-engage however.

once locked mine will only disengage if it downshifts. Again, goes back to the theory many have that we with the aftermarket looser converters and bigger power are making more slip than the trans wants to see so it won't command the converter to lock.

Solutions seem to be:
1. Find a table that controls the un-lock of the converter at downshift, and change it to not unlock. That would solve the rolling wot issues where the converter is locked and then you go wot to pass for example, it downshifts and unlocks and will not relock until you back off the throttle.

2. For the drags, we need to find out if there is a table that references slip in regards to locking the converter and see if it can be adjusted. It seems like once slip goes past a certain point it will not command lockup.

3. Get a tighter converter.

I have a good friend who is a trans calibrator for GM, and I've sent him an e-mail in regards to this. This may not even be a tuning issue in the trans, it may be a mechanical issue with the slippage that they cannot overcome. I'm interested in what he has to say, and will post back.

Out of curiosity, have any of you guys got your truck to lock in second or third gear on a dragstrip run? I think Rob mentioned his locks in 3rd. I've lowered the 2nd and 3rd gear lockup down to 18 mph, but mine won't lock until 4th on a boosted 4wd launch and run. At least it's locking again in 4th and 5th gear, but getting it to lock in 3rd and maybe 2nd would definitely pick up some et.

Jody

[jpowel29]

I have not logged the slippage before on the strip but I will be doing so from here on to keep up with it.

I will be re-installing my old converter and I will get some data logs on it to see how it behaves. It is a Georend and is likely comparable to a SC 1055.

I agree that there have to be some "hidden" tables/parameters that are over-riding the tuneable parameters we can see in the TCM. It is about the only plausible explanation for the unlocking we are seeing. I maxed out the TCC duty cycle tables and lowered the apply speeds (in 2nd & 3rd gears) that should have locked the converter and kept it locked (even down to zero throttle position at speeds above 25mph).

I will know if the cause is mechanical or hydraulic by next week (should have the trans/converter out this weekend).

[camcojb]

I've found a similar thread on another board. There were a couple guys who aren't having a problem locking in second and third gear at the track, but they both have five speeds. Are there any six speed guys with aftermarket converters that can get second and third gear to lock off a boosted 4wd launch? It seems worse with the 6 speed guys from what I've read.

Jody

[rcr1978]

I spent a while digging around for the duty cycle pid and I don't have it, I'm running build 84 also. Maybe on some TCM os's we can't get it yet?

[IdahoRob]

I've found a similar thread on another board. There were a couple guys who aren't having a problem locking in second and third gear at the track, but they both have five speeds. Are there any six speed guys with aftermarket converters that can get second and third gear to lock off a boosted 4wd launch? It seems worse with the 6 speed guys from what I've read.

Jody

Jody, mine locks every time in 2nd gear(100's of passes). I have a couple LMM twin customers that have 1054's and they lock perfectly in 2nd gear on boosted launches at the race track. One of them, I ran personally, at the track many times and it is a 8500+lb dually with huge bumpers, winch, 5th wheel hitch, etc. I also have many LBZ twin customers that do not have any locking problems

I believe it's a converter issue.

[camcojb]

Jody, mine locks every time in 2nd gear(100's of passes). I have a couple LMM twin customers that have 1054's and they lock perfectly in 2nd gear on boosted launches at the race track. One of them, I ran personally, at the track many times and it is a 8500+lb dually with huge bumpers, winch, 5th wheel hitch, etc. I also have many LBZ twin customers that do not have any locking problems

I believe it's a converter issue.

thanks Rob. I haven't heard of anyone that gets second to lock, so that's encouraging. I know this converter is a problem, so I'm trying to find someone to get a converter from. Probably going with a 1054 to be safe.

Jody

[OSUBeaver]

I had some luck it looks like

Thanks Rob :grin:

[camcojb]

I had some luck it looks like

Thanks Rob :grin:

what converter do you run?

Jody

[OSUBeaver]

what converter do you run?

Jody


ATS 5 star. I need to do some more runs to make sure it works under true 100% WFO launch.

Rob said something about some chick named Sally and her skirt....it's almost like he was referring to me :music_whistling_1:

I think it will work, just have to prove it to myself. That launch wasn't any different than ones right before it that locked later.

[jpowel29]

Changed converters today (swapped back to my old Georend converter) and that solved my lock-up issues. Converter locks as soon as the trans shifts into second and stays locked up through the gears. I need to dial the lock-up apply speeds back up a little and tweak the release speeds & TCC solenoid min/max duty cycle setttings. Otherwise I am very happy with the results. Now I can re-focus on the remainder of the trans tune. The other converter has been sent back to be re-worked.

[camcojb]

ATS 5 star. I need to do some more runs to make sure it works under true 100% WFO launch.

Rob said something about some chick named Sally and her skirt....it's almost like he was referring to me :music_whistling_1:

I think it will work, just have to prove it to myself. That launch wasn't any different than ones right before it that locked later.

yeah, my 1058 will lock in second and on with a non-boosted 4wd launch, but doesn't lock until 4th gear on a boosted launch. Need another converter, made a $1500 mistake I guess.

Jody

[DuramaxPowered]

made a $1500 mistake I guess.
I believe thats the same boat I'm in with the 1057 :damnit1: ....

[jpowel29]

Have not had an opportunity to log mine at WOT launch yet. From my experience on the dyno/track, it did not lock until 3rd or 4th but I had not tried anything different in the trans tunes.

[fire0021]

Nick,

mine seems to be locking now with increased min tcc duty cycle at 87.5 and 100% tp, went up to 40. Also increased maximum in the same area to 90%. Added some torque reduction and it now locks in 4th and 5th on a 1/4 mile run. It will not lock in 2nd or third though which would be worth 2-3 tenths it appears from rolling locked datalogs where it doesn't downshift and is locked before going wot, so it holds.

I just wish it could lock in 2nd and 3rd gear also for a boosted launch at the track, and I'm inclined to believe the looseness of my 1058 is probably an issue. Unless Ross can find a TCM control map to ignore slippage and lock anyway.

Jody

jody i tried this same thing a month ago and it cause my trans to limp. not sure why. but it did not like it what so ever. i belive this is a 1058 issue as they age and wear. i never had this issue unitll lately in my truck and it gets worse and worse. never had this problem for the first 10,000 miles and never had this issue with my 1057. I will be switiching this converter out as soon as money alows since the trans builder dosent want to honor his warranty on my truck.

[fire0021]

once locked mine will only disengage if it downshifts. Again, goes back to the theory many have that we with the aftermarket looser converters and bigger power are making more slip than the trans wants to see so it won't command the converter to lock.

Solutions seem to be:
1. Find a table that controls the un-lock of the converter at downshift, and change it to not unlock. That would solve the rolling wot issues where the converter is locked and then you go wot to pass for example, it downshifts and unlocks and will not relock until you back off the throttle.

2. For the drags, we need to find out if there is a table that references slip in regards to locking the converter and see if it can be adjusted. It seems like once slip goes past a certain point it will not command lockup.

3. Get a tighter converter.

I have a good friend who is a trans calibrator for GM, and I've sent him an e-mail in regards to this. This may not even be a tuning issue in the trans, it may be a mechanical issue with the slippage that they cannot overcome. I'm interested in what he has to say, and will post back.

Out of curiosity, have any of you guys got your truck to lock in second or third gear on a dragstrip run? I think Rob mentioned his locks in 3rd. I've lowered the 2nd and 3rd gear lockup down to 18 mph, but mine won't lock until 4th on a boosted 4wd launch and run. At least it's locking again in 4th and 5th gear, but getting it to lock in 3rd and maybe 2nd would definitely pick up some et.Jody

mine will lock in 3rd if in th mode only other wise my truck will not luck untill i let off the throttle a little i have hit 4000 rpms getting on the freeway before becasue the converter never locked:shock:

[OSUBeaver]

You can all disregard my above post about it working. The only reason it was playing nice is because I was launching like grandma.

[camcojb]

You can all disregard my above post about it working. The only reason it was playing nice is because I was launching like grandma.

yeah, if I launch wot but no boost, it will lock in 2nd gear on. If I do a boosted launch, even at lower psi levels it will not lock until 4th gear. Difference is the non-boosted launch has 15 psi less boost at the 1-2 shift than the boosted one; less boost, less power, less slippage............. so it commands the lock up.

Jody

[camcojb]

jody i tried this same thing a month ago and it cause my trans to limp. not sure why. but it did not like it what so ever. i belive this is a 1058 issue as they age and wear. i never had this issue unitll lately in my truck and it gets worse and worse. never had this problem for the first 10,000 miles and never had this issue with my 1057. I will be switiching this converter out as soon as money alows since the trans builder dosent want to honor his warranty on my truck.

may be, but I have datalogs a couple days after the install and it wasn't locking until 4th gear then either. With mine, it's always been this way.

Jody

[jpowel29]

I will get some data logs while at TS to see how my converter is doing on a full pass.

[IdahoRob]

I really feel this is a converter issue as I've personally raced a very heavy 8500+ lb, high HP LMM with a 1054 converter that locked everytime in 2nd gear without changing a thing in the stock tcm.

I believe that with the higher HP that we are now obtaining, the older converter styles are too loose.

[jpowel29]

Switched converters and lock-up is back. Unfortunately did not get to make a single pass down the strip while at TS because the drags were canceled and then I was at the truck pulls while they opened up the track for test & tune. The converter locked up fine on the dyno but I was not running my truck.

[camcojb]

Switched converters and lock-up is back. Unfortunately did not get to make a single pass down the strip while at TS because the drags were canceled and then I was at the truck pulls while they opened up the track for test & tune. The converter locked up fine on the dyno but I was not running my truck.

good to know that the converter is the issue. I'm just hoping that we can gain access to some slip tables in the tcm so that I don't have to spend $1500+ install for a converter that locks in second and third gear on a boosted launch.

Jody

[jpowel29]

I sent my Hughes converter back for them to take a look at it. They opened it up and said it looked like new (looked as if the lock-up clutched had never applied). I re-explained the issues we are seeing with excessive slippage and the inability of the tuning software to influence lock-up under these conditions. The Goerend converter locks up hard in T/H and holds (and does not heat up the trans fluid fast due to less slippage). Dyno data logs were done while the truck was holding 4th gear under WOT so I have yet to get a full data log with the truck up-shifting through all the gears under WOT. I will be back on the track May 29th-30th for more testing and racing.

[Sparky8370]

I am about to order a scIV kit (hopefully), should I be avoiding the 1058? The 1057 was originally recommended when I was looking into this, then the 1058 back in January.

[camcojb]

I am about to order a scIV kit (hopefully), should I be avoiding the 1058? The 1057 was originally recommended when I was looking into this, then the 1058 back in January.

I would avoid it, unless you aren't going to race the truck, or possibly if you are running a milder combo. You can still race with it, but it won't lock in second at the track with a boosted launch, so that does affect the et some. I still went 12.75 at 108+ with it that way, but now that I know that other converters will lock in second gear on, it bugs me that this one won't.

Jody

[cmitchell17]

I just got a stage 3 with a 1056 with about 500rw. I havent had a chance to log, but I think it is not locking in 2nd and 3rd. I know it was locking on the highway even at WOT.

[OSUBeaver]

I having a 1054 installed tomorrow. Might be able to run it Friday night.

[fire0021]

I would avoid it, unless you aren't going to race the truck, or possibly if you are running a milder combo. You can still race with it, but it won't lock in second at the track with a boosted launch, so that does affect the et some. I still went 12.75 at 108+ with it that way, but now that I know that other converters will lock in second gear on, it bugs me that this one won't.

Jody

x2 i would avoid it all together

[jpowel29]

Anything new with this issue? Both of my converters are too loose to allow the TCM to allow lock-up under WOT.

[camcojb]

Anything new with this issue? Both of my converters are too loose to allow the TCM to allow lock-up under WOT.

Ross is looking as time permits, and there are others looking for ways to control the lockup, but nothing finalized at this point.

Jody

[jpowel29]

I may go ahead and try the lock-up switch until the programming is ready. It seems this has been a fix in use for a while. I will talk with my trans builder first.

[vortecfcar]

The fixed table has been released, John I sent you a tune to try.

Jody, see table D5072 for updates.

Nick

[camcojb]

The fixed table has been released, John I sent you a tune to try.

Jody, see table D5072 for updates.

Nick

I checked and loaded updates first, but I do not see any changes to that table. Am I missing something? And will that table have any effect on the tcm not commanding lockup under high slippage, seems like it would just affect how it comes on once commanded.

Jody

[DuramaxPowered]

I checked and loaded updates first, but I do not see any changes to that table. Am I missing something? And will that table have any effect on the tcm not commanding lockup under high slippage, seems like it would just affect how it comes on once commanded.

Jody x2......where's the update?

[vortecfcar]

Maybe it's been out for a while and I just never saw that table or haven't updated in a while.... wouldn't be the first time.

Have you guys messed with D5072 in the past to try to fix this?

Nick

[camcojb]

Maybe it's been out for a while and I just never saw that table or haven't updated in a while.... wouldn't be the first time.

Have you guys messed with D5072 in the past to try to fix this?

Nick

yeah, I've tried several mods to that table with no success in the past, as far as this lockup issue.

Jody

[vortecfcar]

Well crap, here I was all excited for nothing. :)

[rcr1978]

Speaking of that table what kind of results did you get with it? Softer or firmer lock up when you actually had a lockup ?

[camcojb]

Speaking of that table what kind of results did you get with it? Softer or firmer lock up when you actually had a lockup ?

I could not really feel any differences in lockup when I changed that table. It seems like it would affect that but I suspect it's only one of many tables used that affect lockup speed, like many of the other tables in the Allison tuning.

If you're trying to soften lockup with an aftermarket converter I had some success with D5071 and lowering the max numbers in the light throttle areas. But I think WHEN it locks makes a bigger difference, and the lower the gear, sooner you have it lock at part throttle the harsher the lockup feels. Also, on mine, removing torque reduction affected the lockup, even at super light throttle areas where you wouldn't be getting any TR; definitely softened the lockup of my 1058 to have TR back in at 40-50%.

Jody

[jpowel29]

I have tried raising & lowering the min/max apply percentages. As previously stated these will really firm up the lock-up at part throttle. I have left the max apply percentages around 95%. I am not sure why this value would need to be at 65%. I am at the point where I am ready to swap converters (again). I will keep my looser ones in hopes that the secret tables get discovered in the near future.

[DuramaxPowered]

I have left the max apply percentages around 95%. I am not sure why this value would need to be at 65%.
to keep from burning up the solenoids. That being said, I'm going to make a controller that will do full lock-up without pulse width modulation......."F" solenoids are $16-18, I'll take my chance at smoking one by running 100% duty cycle for 11 seconds:hihi:

[jpowel29]

Anyone care to share any wiring diagrams and schematics for the 6spd TCM and wiring harness. I am at the point of sitting out the next few races until I can get a lock-up switch or controller figured out.

[DURAtotheMAX]

The fixed table has been released, John I sent you a tune to try.

Jody, see table D5072 for updates.

Nick

no that table doesnt fix it...I tried a long time ago. :(

[jpowel29]

I should have the switch/wiring diagrams this week to attempt manual lock-up. I will post up my results. If the switch works, we are going to start putting together a simple microcontroller to help pulse/ramp up the solenoid (similar to a progressive nitrous controller).

[DURAtotheMAX]

here is one I drew up a while ago...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/penguin1494/lockupschematic.jpg

Use this at your own risk. You could very well blow stuff up by doing this. I wont be responsible for anything broken that results.

ben

[jpowel29]

Thanks for the diagram. It is essentially what I will be using.

Did you try it at WOT? Did it lock the converter w/o limping the trans? My thoughts were that if it did work at WOT then I would get my buddy to make a micro controller to help with PWM. I may be SOL but I wanted to try something before sinking more money in a tight converter that will make my engine combo miserable to drive.

[jpowel29]

I just ordered the Lock-Up controller from Fleece

[camcojb]

I just ordered the Lock-Up controller from Fleece

I'm going to call him, did not know he had one.

Jody

[jpowel29]

Jody,

I just found they had one this morning by reading the thread that Trent posted on DD. Apparently these are the Turbo Brake controllers that can manually command lockup and use PWM on the F solenoid (exactly what I was looking at doing but much better engineered and packaged).

I will be racing on June 20th so I could not have come up at a better time.

Let me know if you get one as well

John

[OSUBeaver]

Interested to see how that controller works since the Copilot didn't do Jack S for my first converter.

[jpowel29]

Interested to see how that controller works since the Copilot didn't do Jack S for my first converter.


I installed the first Lock-up controller and it made my truck run extremely rough and throw codes. Turns out it was sent out with the wrong inline wiring harness for my truck. The replacement harness finally arrived yesterday morning and once it was installed the truck went into Limp Mode (which it has never done before). I called and left Brayden a voicemail and several PMs asking for help with this. I have a race tomorrow so I may just end up taking it off to get the truck back to normal.

Others may have had good luck with it but my experience thus far has been less than expected for sure.

[camcojb]

I installed the first Lock-up controller and it made my truck run extremely rough and throw codes. Turns out it was sent out with the wrong inline wiring harness for my truck. The replacement harness finally arrived yesterday morning and once it was installed the truck went into Limp Mode (which it has never done before). I called and left Brayden a voicemail and several PMs asking for help with this. I have a race tomorrow so I may just end up taking it off to get the truck back to normal.

Others may have had good luck with it but my experience thus far has been less than expected for sure.

bummer. I think it was Trent that just tried one also, and his worked great, went his quickest et so far. I'm sure Brayden will get it figured out.

Jody

[IdahoRob]

bummer. I think it was Trent that just tried one also, and his worked great, went his quickest et so far. I'm sure Brayden will get it figured out.

Jody

Trent's did work as advertized, without problems. I was there at the track with him. Trent never had a lockup problem before though.

This should help cover for poor converters. Great idea and Brayden will get the bugs worked out.

[jpowel29]

My lock-up controller needed lots of tweaking before it would not throw codes or limp my truck. Brayden walked me through it and I now have it where the truck is happy with it on there. I am heading to the track tomorrow to race so I will get some data logs of the 6spd Allison pids to show when the lock-up occurs under power.

[JoshH]

My lock-up controller needed lots of tweaking before it would not throw codes or limp my truck. Brayden walked me through it and I now have it where the truck is happy with it on there. I am heading to the track tomorrow to race so I will get some data logs of the 6spd Allison pids to show when the lock-up occurs under power.
How did you tweak it?

[jpowel29]

Just needed some re-wiring (only needed to see MAP sensor from the main ECM harness. My truck was not happy with the pass-thru inline harness. Once we took that off everything was back to normal.

I posted up my new times on the d-max forums. The lock-up controller made a big difference on my truck. Having the converter lock-up early in the run made a lot of things improve.

[jpowel29]

Anyone have any luck with tuning their lock-up controllers? I know the Brayden was working allowing us to adj the lock-up speed, boost threshold, etc.

[TeddyBear]

I know this thread is a little old, but I am having similar problems as the OP. Doing 4wd, WOT launches my converter will not lock until 4th gear, and seldomly 3rd. I'm looking into getting a lockup controller. Just wondering though, I know you can use the scan tool to activate the TCC solenoid, would it be ok to do this on a WOT run? Or would it still not lock?

[KB3MMX]

Nick,

mine seems to be locking now with increased min tcc duty cycle at 87.5 and 100% tp, went up to 40. Also increased maximum in the same area to 90%. Added some torque reduction and it now locks in 4th and 5th on a 1/4 mile run. It will not lock in 2nd or third though which would be worth 2-3 tenths it appears from rolling locked datalogs where it doesn't downshift and is locked before going wot, so it holds.

I just wish it could lock in 2nd and 3rd gear also for a boosted launch at the track, and I'm inclined to believe the looseness of my 1058 is probably an issue. Unless Ross can find a TCM control map to ignore slippage and lock anyway.

Jody

Is there any real gain in lockup quality/strength by raising the max value for the TCC solenoid? Also wondering at which point it is safe to raise it to.....will 95% burn it out?

I'm skeptical on raising the minimum values for fear of dragging/wearing the TC clutch when it's not supposed to be locked up, or am I incorrect?

Thanks !!

[KB3MMX]

I know this thread is a little old, but I am having similar problems as the OP. Doing 4wd, WOT launches my converter will not lock until 4th gear, and seldomly 3rd. I'm looking into getting a lockup controller. Just wondering though, I know you can use the scan tool to activate the TCC solenoid, would it be ok to do this on a WOT run? Or would it still not lock?

Does yours work ok in T/H mode?

[MaxPF]

Is there any real gain in lockup quality/strength by raising the max value for the TCC solenoid? Also wondering at which point it is safe to raise it to.....will 95% burn it out?

I'm skeptical on raising the minimum values for fear of dragging/wearing the TC clutch when it's not supposed to be locked up, or am I incorrect?

Thanks !!

6 speeds use a PPC solenoid rather than the PWM solenoids used in the 5 speeds. The PWM solenoids have a DC resistance of over 20 ohms, which limits the current to a safe value even at 100% duty cycle. The PPC solenoid only has a DC resistance of 5 ohms or so. It limits current by it's AC impedance at it's 1KHz operating frequency. If you increase the duty cycle too far you risk saturating the solenoid (which is just an iron core inductor from an electrical standpoint), at which point the impedance will drop sharply and current will rise equally sharply, as will power dissipation. So yes, there is a max safe value, although I don't know what it is.

[DURAtotheMAX]

6 speeds use a PPC solenoid rather than the PWM solenoids used in the 5 speeds. The PWM solenoids have a DC resistance of over 20 ohms, which limits the current to a safe value even at 100% duty cycle. The PPC solenoid only has a DC resistance of 5 ohms or so. It limits current by it's AC impedance at it's 1KHz operating frequency. If you increase the duty cycle too far you risk saturating the solenoid (which is just an iron core inductor from an electrical standpoint), at which point the impedance will drop sharply and current will rise equally sharply, as will power dissipation. So yes, there is a max safe value, although I don't know what it is.

01-05 5-speed PWM TCC solenoids have a DC resistance of ~10ohms

[MaxPF]

Not according to the info I have. They use the same coil as the shift solenoids.

[THEFERMANATOR]

I've checked a few of the F sol for 5 speeds and they measure from 12-14 ohms for the ones I have. The 6 speed one I have measures 4.9 ohms.

[MaxPF]

Hmm, interesting. At any rate, you cant run a high duty cycle or DC into a PPC solenoid or it will go up in smoke. With a DC resistance of only 5 ohms, and assuming a supply voltage of 13.6V, dissipation would be 37 watts :nuke:

[DURAtotheMAX]

Not according to the info I have. They use the same coil as the shift solenoids.

I have one sitting right here in front of me and it measures 10-11 ohms at room temperature according to my fluke multimeter..

a 5-speed tcc solenoid will burn up within 6-7 minutes of straight 100% duty cycle at 13.2v

[MaxPF]

I have one sitting right here in front of me and it measures 10-11 ohms at room temperature according to my fluke multimeter..

a 5-speed tcc solenoid will burn up within 6-7 minutes of straight 100% duty cycle at 13.2v

I believe you. Which is why the max duty cycle is limited in software.