PDA

View Full Version : Complexity Remedy



killerbee
May 15th, 2009, 03:25 AM
Just a thought, and courteous suggestion for development.

This (bosch) ECU is proving to be quite overwhelming. The detail that is coming out of revisions, is, without doubt, very "comprehensive", cudos...keep up the effort, it is much appreciated.

However, here is a "new guy" perspective, which i am sure is lost in the back office. I want to point out, from a newb perspective, the shear number of tables is jaw dropping, and so many of them could be considered peripheral. :shock:

Here is my suggestion. Is there perhaps a way that the user can opt for 2 different presentations in the GUI? One would be "COMPLETE", the whole enchilada of a zillion tables. The other would be, "BASIC", the essential, less peripheral tables only, probably 10% of the present number.

This would be helpful, not only for the sales to the 06+ newbs, but for us tuners, who would love to "hide" the peripherals from time to time, to save our own sanity.
:rockon:

This is a suggestion, not a put down. I love this product, and the diligent ongoing effort. I will leave it to you.

VegasDMAX
May 15th, 2009, 05:04 AM
Like KB said, this is not a put down and I think the support for EFILive is great!

Personally, I would rather see the available effort go toward a more detailed analysis of what goes on in the Bosch ECM and the operating systems. For example, there seems to be sort of a consensus that if you have an EGR problem, the dealer will reflash your ECM to OS 12632483, and you will get poorer fuel mileage. That was the case with me when I got reflashed from OS 12606128. I know small changes in fuel mileage are hard to nail down, but comparing stock to stock I lost about 2.5 mpg. I have compared the Engine Operation tables entry-by-entry in these OS's and they are identical except for post injection #2 timing. It's tempting to say that is the reason for the poorer mileage, but by zeroing out the post #2 quantity in both OS's I got about 3/4 of an mpg improvement. That still leaves the original difference.

I would hate to see Ross put forth a lot of effort on just my say, and I would hate even more to have him do it and not find anything. Can anybody else chime in on this with similar findings?

killerbee
May 15th, 2009, 06:19 AM
This ECU is still in development, and my suggestion is to help with a quicker understanding of the established basics, using a basic graphic reveal, perhaps even with a logical visual presentational order (foot-->torque-->fuel, etc). The learning curve aspect of this tool is what I consider highly improveable, it simply lacks a logical tree-like appearance. Even the delphi ECU did, but it was less complex at least. This is going to be a subjective issue, and not everyone will share my concern, especially the more experienced.

This truck spends 95% of its time in less than 10% of the tables (apparently). This is the point of this thread. EFILive's product support team should be left unburdened with what GM is implementing, albeit as long as it doesn't help them unlock more of the reverse engineer mystery. IMO

No disrespect intended.

GMPX
May 15th, 2009, 09:01 AM
We can quite easily set the calibrations to Basic , Intermediate or Advanced modes which will only show calibrations in those groups. There is already the option in the software for this.

Michael, as user who understands these engines / computers at an Advanced level if you want to volunteer to write a Basic / Intermediate / Advanced list of calibration numbers I can certainly regen the calibrations to suit.

Cheers,
Ross

ScarabEpic22
May 15th, 2009, 09:14 AM
Ross, where is this calibration hiding setting? I just looked through my P10 and E67 file and cant seem to find it...

Thanks!

bballer182
May 15th, 2009, 01:04 PM
This ECU is still in development, and my suggestion is to help with a quicker understanding of the established basics, using a basic graphic reveal, perhaps even with a logical visual presentational order (foot-->torque-->fuel, etc). The learning curve aspect of this tool is what I consider highly improveable, it simply lacks a logical tree-like appearance. Even the delphi ECU did, but it was less complex at least. This is going to be a subjective issue, and not everyone will share my concern, especially the more experienced.

This truck spends 95% of its time in less than 10% of the tables (apparently). This is the point of this thread. EFILive's product support team should be left unburdened with what GM is implementing, albeit as long as it doesn't help them unlock more of the reverse engineer mystery. IMO

No disrespect intended.

I can kind of see where you are coming from. However, In my opinion I would want nothing less than every single available table shown to me at once. I personally think that the current tree of tables is quite logical and needs only more tables. hahhaha.

just my $0.02

joecar
May 15th, 2009, 01:08 PM
I like to see all tables listed at all times.

$0.02

OSUBeaver
May 15th, 2009, 01:29 PM
Unless you could do some sort of quick user-customizable mask, not showing tables is kind limiting in my opinion Time spent learning the tree structure would be a good investment.

There aren't any tables that are not important, or they wouldn't be there.... it just depends on what you are working on.

MMLMM
May 15th, 2009, 02:54 PM
I can kind of see where you are coming from. However, In my opinion I would want nothing less than every single available table shown to me at once. I personally think that the current tree of tables is quite logical and needs only more tables. hahhaha.

just my $0.02

X2. Overwhelming is more helpful to me :grin:

killerbee
May 15th, 2009, 03:52 PM
The shear numbers of tables is entirely too scary for new users, who need a better first experience IMO. This is also a workload for resellers, who spend a lot of time handholding.

Suggest the tables you would want to see listed, say, the ones you would use for a tutorial for doing your first comprehensive tune, that would be helpful. Exluding, for example, IAT timing, what I refer to as the peripherals, which 99% of the users don't know how to use anyway, also tables that have little impact on performance, economy or ride refinement.

This thread may also serve as an education as well. Please limit your beginner list to 12 tables, that will force you to really prioritize. List in the order that logically progresses. I am no authority on this, and I hope to learn something here.

MMLMM
May 15th, 2009, 04:26 PM
The shear numbers of tables is entirely too scary for new users, who need a better first experience IMO. This is also a workload for resellers, who spend a lot of time handholding.

Suggest the tables you would want to see listed, say, the ones you would use for a tutorial for doing your first comprehensive tune, that would be helpful. Exluding, for example, IAT timing, that sort of thing, which 99% of the users don't know how to use anyway, also tables that have little peripheral effect on performance, economy or ride refinement.

This thread may also serve as an education as well. Please limit your beginner list to 12 tables, that will force you to really prioritize. List in the order that logically progresses. I am no authority on this, and I hope to learn something here.

I think it should be broke down Diesel/gasser specific too.

joecar
May 15th, 2009, 04:51 PM
Maybe what is needed is multiple favorites lists.

bballer182
May 16th, 2009, 01:29 AM
Maybe what is needed is multiple favorites lists.

Word! that's a very good idea. just have preloaded favorites lists that way no extra programming has to be done.


BTW Michael, WE diesel guys have it easy. Take a look at some vortec tunes. or LS tunes...

joecar
May 16th, 2009, 07:18 AM
- user shall be able to create/delete lists;
- user shall be able to add/delete pids to/from a list;
- user shall be able to sort a list by preference or by table id number;
- user shall be able to write-protect a list (i.e. prevents deletion/sorting), and to un-write-protect.

i.e. same as the current favourites list, just multiple ones... (multiple tabs).

A user could have different lists for different "levels" of pids, or different lists for air/fuel/spark or eng/trans/other...

GMPX
May 17th, 2009, 10:50 AM
From day one we had the Basic / Intermediate / Advanced option, I remember all the Emails "Why can't I see 'x' table when my friend can", I am sure that won't change, but since then we just made everything appear in the basic list. I can't even remember how the user selects to view each option :doh2: , but to flag a particular table / parameters as B,I or A it only requires me to mark the table/param as such as then regen the .calz files. It's not the end of the world to do it.

A most commonly used favourites list would probably also work just as well.

Cheers,
Ross

joecar
May 17th, 2009, 05:13 PM
From day one we had the Basic / Intermediate / Advanced option, I remember all the Emails "Why can't I see 'x' table when my friend can", I am sure that won't change, but since then we just made everything appear in the basic list. I can't even remember how the user selects to view each option :doh2: , but to flag a particular table / parameters as B,I or A it only requires me to mark the table/param as such as then regen the .calz files. It's not the end of the world to do it.

A most commonly used favourites list would probably also work just as well.

Cheers,
RossMultiple fav's lists would allow expert uses to have categories like eng, trans, speedo etc.

GMPX
May 17th, 2009, 10:43 PM
Well, new ideas will be taken to Version 8, V7 is pretty much what it is, development (as in new features) is no longer going to happen for Version 7.

But as I mentioned above, the user level smarts is already in V7 and I can change the .calz files to have the options if needed.

Cheers,
Ross

Enigma
May 29th, 2009, 02:54 AM
Interesting discussion, I for one have been using the “Basic, Standard, Enhanced” groups since I downloaded the program just to play with it and frankly I find it immensely useful. For those wanting to play with these near the top of the “Navigator” pane you will see a “Group” listing with a drop down menu which currently has “(All)” selected. If you click the drop down you will see the remaining groups.

Currently (at least in my version) the “Basic, Standard and Enhanced” groups are empty.

To activate / change these groups in the “Edit” menu click on “Configure display units...” this will open the “Change units...” window. From here at the bottom center of the screen you again see the “Group” item with the drop down. The main window shows information such as “ID”, “Description”, and “Group”, by default all items are in the “All” group.

These groups appear to be logical in order, in other words if you add an “ID” to the “Basic” group it will also populate in the “Standard” and “Enhanced” groups (as well as the “All” group). Add an ID to the “Standard” group and it will not appear in the “Basic” group it will appear in the “Standard” and “Enhanced” groups.

Placing “ID” into a group is very simple. You can individually right click on each “ID” and in the context sensitive sub menu choose the “calibration group” menu and from the pop-up menu chose the group you wish to assign the “ID” to. You can also ctrl+click several items (shift click works as well) to choose multiple “ID”s to place into a specific group. Finally you can click the “All” button to select all “ID”s and then right click to assign to a group.

Clicking the “Recall” button sets all “ID”s to the “Standard” group (which I find odd but whatever). Obviously “Cancel” button will discard any changes you made.

By the way the little blue + just to the right of the “Group” drop down menu will allow you to add “ID”s to the “Favorites” tab which is in my humble opinion the greatest thing to use. Just add the fields (what they call “ID”s) that you most commonly tweak on a tune and no more hunting for them. :grin:

As a note to the developers and possibly for discussion here perhaps to fulfill the idea that KB had you could rename the “Group” drop down to something like “Calibration Options” or “Tuning Options” and start off with the “standard” drop down selected. This might lead people to look at the options presented as in my opinion “Group” doesn't make much sense from a tuning parameter availability perspective. If it (group) were renamed to something like “Tuning Options” when you click the drop down you'd see the “Basic”, “Standard”, etc and more intuitively understand these are the basic tuning options I have, the standard options, etc. At least it makes more sense to me that way.

Lots of cool toys in this software if you take the time to poke around, thanks again guys for building an awesome software package for us to explore.

joecar
May 29th, 2009, 04:35 AM
Enigma,

Welcome to the forum...:cheers:...and excellent tutorial on setting groups...:cheers:

killerbee
May 29th, 2009, 04:38 AM
ditto

Enigma
May 29th, 2009, 09:19 AM
Hehe thanks, obviously been lurking here for quite some time. Didn't realize I'd never posted before.

bballer182
May 29th, 2009, 10:41 AM
X3 well written. I had no idea that was there. However, i still don't find it useful (personally), but i'm sure that it will make some users very happy.

Something to add to that...
It might be cool to add the functionality for a tuner (or anyone) to provide an installable list that would set the default list to a customized one with the three levels of viewable tables.

giesbrecht
July 5th, 2009, 09:07 AM
Some excellent ideas here, I've learned something already. After doing a lot of "handholding" to new users, I would like to see someone come up with a tree version of the tables that would show all the ties to each other in a visual perspective if that were possible. Maybe there already is a way that I have not found?

GMPX
July 5th, 2009, 09:22 AM
As I had said earlier, we can easily make the change to the calibrations to show different levels (beginner, expert etc), If anyone wants to come up with a list we can make the change.

Cheers,
Ross

killerbee
July 5th, 2009, 11:20 AM
sorry I dropped the ball. I will get to it this week. it will be a combination of my opinion and BB.

killerbee
July 11th, 2009, 01:59 PM
LBZ

Beginner List:

Torque and Fuel
B0701
B1115
B1102
B1122
B0720

Timing
B0909

Boost
B2206
B2209
B2224
B2226

H0102-0108 (could we get these speeds in Imperial?) :)

Intermediate Tables:

B1116
B1117
B1121
B1122
B9101
B1118
B1119
B1128
B0908
B0970
B0971
B1201
B1501-1525
B1001
B2204-2208
B2222-2224

Advanced/Peripheral

everything else


If anyone can suggest additional intermediate tables, chime in. IIRC, only Pilot 1 is used with LBZ.

bballer182
July 12th, 2009, 11:31 AM
LBZ

Beginner List:

Torque and Fuel
B0701
B1115
B1102
B1122
B0720

Timing
B0909

Boost
B2206
B2209
B2224
B2226

H0102-0108 (could we get these speeds in Imperial?) :)

Mine are in Imperial... It's all about how you set it up.

Intermediate Tables:

B1116
B1117
B1121
B1122
B9101
B1118
B1119
B1128
B0908
B0970
B0971
B1201
B1501-1525
B1001
B2204-2208
B2222-2224

Advanced/Peripheral

everything else


If anyone can suggest additional intermediate tables, chime in. IIRC, only Pilot 1 is used with LBZ.

Just saw another injection event today other that pilot 1. I was BBL'ing so i couldn't tell what it was. need to record it to find out what it was.

replies in Blue