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View Full Version : Car is running VERY rich all of a sudden



alwaysinboost
May 20th, 2009, 03:00 AM
I posted this over in the Gen III forum but haven't received any responses so I'm trying here...

Had my 01 procharged Z06 on the rollers a little while ago just for kicks before I started hitting the road courses again this year. this is the same dyno I always use and my results have been a pretty consistant 730whp SAE all the time regardless of the time of year.

the car is running an EFILive custom OS (its an 03 OS) with an SD tune that Cartek did a couple years ago. For hardware I'm running 96# injectors, an injector driver box, two fuel pumps (the second activated by a hobbs switch) and a boost-a-pump. Previously my A/F has been mid-low 11's on this dyno.

For some reason this time my A/F was a super rich 10:1 all the way from when I went WOT until I lifted @ 6.5k RPM. It might have been richer then that but the WB sensor on the dyno only goes to 10:1 as the richest. As a result power was down about 40-50whp and about the same decrease for TQ depending on the pull. On the street I can't notice the power difference at all but my fuel economy has always sucked and my car is DUMPING black smoke out the exhaust when I step on it.

Any idea what would cause this sudden rich condition? I'm thinking it might be a stuck injector or maybe my injector driver box is messed up or something, but I'm thinking its a mechanical problem and not something with the tune because aside from swapping in new head gaskets recently nothing has changed on the car.

I recently installed an innovative LC1 wideband and purchased EFILive V2 flash/scan so I can start to log/tune. I'm not new to tuning an engine but the EFILive software takes a little getting used to. The wideband is all over the place most of the time. even at idle it will swing from super rich to 18:1. I can get the A/F to read about 14.7ish when crusing if I'm VERY light with the throttle, but any real movement of the go pedel and the WB shows a rich condition.

Here is the part that is really weird and makes me thinks its an injector or driver box issue. When in decel above 2k RPM the injectors should be shutoff and the engine is basically just pumping air, so the WB should read 20.9% oxygen, which is the amount of o2 in the atmosphere. when I left off and coast down however its showing as rich as 8:1 A/F, which is a low as I have the gauge set. Sometimes if I coast down from like 4k or above it will show 20.9% o2 for a could seconds but it will always go to 8:1 after a very short period.


some other things I suspect "might" be a problem but don't know enough about how the EFILive SD tune calcs things are:

shot front o2's - i haven't looked at my fuel trims yet, still trying to get the logging program bugs worked out. Plus I don't know if the SD tune uses the front o2s for anything but it is possible they are shot from the few times I put leaded gas in the car.

boost leak - again, not sure how the SD tune operates but it should be reading the pressure in the manifold and adding fuel accordingly. if there was a leak it should effect the fueling, correct?

Faulty WB sensor - I'm just grabbing straws here. I doubt the dyno's WB and my LC1 are off. plus the car is DUMPING black smoke out the exhaust when I step on it which is a clear indicator of a rich condition.

Faulty Coolant temp sensor - ???

Bad 03 OS - I read about a bug in the 03 COS that does something with the coolant temp sensor. Could the situation I'm seeing be a result of that bug?

sorry for the long post but I wanted to put as much info out there as I could so people can get a clear picture of the situation.
what do the experts think?

joecar
May 20th, 2009, 06:01 AM
Always,

Post some logs (that include IBPW, ECT among others)... and tune file if possible.

Did the problem just start showing up, or was it already there...?

O2's might be contaminated by lead... but if you set some cells in b3647 for semi-open loop (SOL, uses STFT to trim to EQ 1.00) then logging HO2Sxx voltages can tell if they are working or not.

Might be a driver/injector problem... those big injectors have a larger minimum pulse width.

We'll see what other members say.

Joe

alwaysinboost
May 20th, 2009, 07:19 AM
Thanks for the response Joecar. I'll post up some logs as soon as I get back to the house.

The problem started sometime between the beginning of 08 and the beginning of 09. lol I know thats a pretty large span of time but its all I've got to work with.

alwaysinboost
May 20th, 2009, 08:57 AM
5420

log attached of a quick drive

5.7ute
May 20th, 2009, 01:37 PM
There is no working wideband input in that log. Rectify that & post another with a tune file if possible.

alwaysinboost
May 20th, 2009, 11:01 PM
yeah, I'm still having problems getting flashscan to see the LC1...

joecar
May 21st, 2009, 02:33 AM
Do you have FlashScan V1 or V2...?

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 02:51 AM
i have v2

joecar
May 21st, 2009, 03:03 AM
Are you getting the AFR from the LC-1 using analog signal or serial connection...?

mr.prick
May 21st, 2009, 03:58 AM
Be absolutely sure of your WBO2 install and configuration.
No leaks and your settings are what you want them to be. (gasoline AFR ect.)

I first installed my sensor in the drivers side of the Ypipe. (Fbody)
This gave me values that fluctuated quite wildly,
I moved it to the catback and have more stable values.

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 04:43 AM
joecar, I'm using a female to female serial adapter I got from radioshack. no analog signals are being used.

mr.prick, I'm pretty sure the WB is hooked up correctly. I had a hell of a time getting the LC1 setup and operating the way it should but I'm sure its set to gas 14.7afr. I might try another recalibration ( I only did about half a dozen so far) to be sure the HUGE a/f swings aren't a miscalibrated sensor. it does hover around 14.7 a few minutes at startup and while I'm crusing but its not nearly as steady of a reading as my LM1 is.

Chevy366
May 21st, 2009, 04:52 AM
Use "serial" with the V2 , LC-1 combo , the LC-1 1.10v firmware is flaky in analog form .
Hmmm , like joecar says in a CO3 the O2s are only active if you have a semi-open loop mode enabled .
No DTCs ?

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 05:09 AM
^^ how would I know if semi-open loop mode enabled... can't that be figured out by looking at the log, it doesn't appear that the o2 voltages move that much.

joecar
May 21st, 2009, 05:15 AM
female-female won't work... you need a null-modem adapter... see this:
http://www.sfcable.com/cable/p/30D1-C1-S.html
showthread.php?p=80536 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=80536) post #2

Or get a pre-made LC-1 serial cable from TAQuickness:
showthread.php?t=8858 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8858)



http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/6460/db9malemalenullmodemada.png

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 05:29 AM
^ that pic looks exactly like the adapter I have... except I don't know if it says null modem on it, I don't think it does. So I guess that means I've got the wrong adapter, bummer. I'm going to order the one from the link you posted right now, THANK YOU!

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 05:32 AM
this is the one I bought

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062207

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 05:35 AM
will this one work? It says null modem adapter but I think its male on one side and female on the other... not 100%

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062210&tab=techSpecs

sorry for all the questions.

joecar
May 21st, 2009, 05:57 AM
See how the null modem adapter crosses pins 2 and 3...

http://usera.ImageCave.com/joecar/LC-1-to-FlashScan-Serial.png

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 06:16 AM
I'm an idiot sometimes... thanks for the HUGE pic

Chevy366
May 21st, 2009, 06:30 AM
Get the LC-1 cable form TAQuickness , direct connect .

joecar
May 21st, 2009, 09:31 AM
+1.

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 09:59 AM
I should have just ordered it from TAQUickness in the first place to support this forum and its members but I was in a rush and just got the one joecar linked above.

joecar
May 21st, 2009, 10:01 AM
The $3 adapter will work.

alwaysinboost
May 21st, 2009, 10:26 AM
ok, so now that we've got the adapter thing squared away (thank you everyone), is there any input as to my rich condition???

Chevy366
May 21st, 2009, 12:22 PM
IAT , ECT , can cause a rich condition , with COS3 you pretty much have control of AFRs so it must be something small .

joecar
May 21st, 2009, 12:30 PM
Oh, need some logs with wideband AFR.

nathans1987
May 24th, 2009, 03:39 PM
how do you log other pids other than wo2 with the serial connector? like map and rpm todo the autoVE

joecar
May 25th, 2009, 03:58 AM
You edit Options.txt using the new Scan&Tune user interface (you edit the existing pid lists, and/or create new ones), and you program it to the V2... then on V2 you select the pid list you want and start logging.

alwaysinboost
May 27th, 2009, 01:50 PM
update:

I installed the null modem connector and followed the instructions here:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=8858

I was able to seer the LC1 on the V2 warming up and reading free air, so I had it connected right. I didn't actually start the car at this point, the key was in the on position. I went inside to read more and see about setting up BBL.

while following the instructions for BBL I updated my firmware to some new version 2.6.10 I think is what it was... but anyway thats when some weird issues started.

It seems like the V2 is acting funny. the F1 - F4 buttons are all mixed up. for example, when I press F1 it will do the function of whats shown as F3. Also when scrolling down thru the choices with the arrow kyes it will skip over every other option.

what is causing this... is it this new updated firmware?

joecar
May 27th, 2009, 02:00 PM
Have you tried with firmware 2.06.10 May 25 mentioned in post #12 of this thread: showthread.php?t=10900 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=10900)

alwaysinboost
May 27th, 2009, 11:20 PM
yes, thats the version I'm running, see my post right about yours. EFILive automatically updated me to the latest version.

alwaysinboost
May 27th, 2009, 11:21 PM
this sucks. I am supposed to race tomorrow and I wanted to BBL... I need to get this resolved ASAP!

joecar
May 28th, 2009, 03:06 AM
Try this [] sqaure brackets indicate where to do this from:
0. use Scan&Tune to set up an Options.txt with the pids you want to log[S&T],
1. reflash V2 firmware [EE],
2. set time to now [EE],
3. reformat the Config tab [EE],
4. reformat the 2 data spaces (select SD card and internal and format each) [V2],
5. set data space to SD card [V2],
6. copy LS1B_M.pmm (for your 2001 ZO6) and Options.txt to the Config tab [EE],
7. copy the 4 *.dtc files to the Scan tab [EE].

BTW: LS1B_M = 1999-2008 LS1 with M6

You should be good now.

If you want, skip step 0 above and copy the attached Options.txt to C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\EFILive\V8\Config.

joecar
May 28th, 2009, 03:08 AM
PM me your phone number and when is a good time to call... (I'm in CA).

alwaysinboost
May 28th, 2009, 12:05 PM
Joecar, thanks for the help thus far. I ran out of time today to mess with it, its going to have to wait until Saturday. I'll try what you suggested above and report back.

joecar
May 28th, 2009, 01:13 PM
If you want me to call it has to be before Saturday.

alwaysinboost
June 7th, 2009, 10:53 AM
bringing this back up... joecar, I followed your setup above and was able to get the v2 to see the lc1. thank you! :cheers:

I don't know what was wrong with the V2, if it was a software or hardware issue, but when you would scroll down using the arrow keys it was skipping over more then one option at a time.
also the f1-f4 buttons didn't do what the description said, it was really weird & frustrating at the same time. I hope it doesn't happen again.

pass thru logging seems to be working fine as well.
At least now I can start to record with the laptop in the car and get some A/F readings.

I figured since everything was going smooth I'd try BBL,
I formatted the SD card, selected data logging>record data> but I didn't see any data on the v2. :confused:
not sure what I did wrong but, I'm going to look the BBL section and see what I can find...

joecar
June 8th, 2009, 07:28 AM
...
I figured since everything was going smooth I'd try BBL,
I formatted the SD card, selected data logging>record data> but I didn't see any data on the v2. :confused:
not sure what I did wrong but, I'm going to look the BBL section and see what I can find...
Did you first select the pid list you want to log...?

To do this you have to use V8.1 Scan&Tune to setup the pidlists which you then program to V2.

joecar
June 8th, 2009, 07:32 AM
See post #12: showthread.php?t=10920 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=10920)

alwaysinboost
June 8th, 2009, 10:01 AM
ahh, I figured out what I was doing wrong... as usual it was something little. :doh2: (that smiley is PERFECT)
when the flashscan program opens up, it defaults to the first controller on the list. 98 manual - or something like that.
I was loading my selected PID's into that contorller, which wasn't the one I was picking on the V2. :doh2:

once I reprogramed my pid's into the correct controller I was able to take my very first of many bbl's: 5552 :cucumber:

thanks again joecar :rockon: