Wide Band Poll

[turbo_bu]

I have read the problems with the Innovate widebands, specifically the LC-1, but was wondering how the Tech Edge WB's have been working? I am waiting for when my LC-1 takes a dump (have only used it briefly) and what to do if it does. It would be nice to stay with something that talks directly to the V2, but if there is something better, then why bother with all the hassel.

Which WB are you using?
How has it held up?
How has it worked with the V2 (if you are using the serial interface).

Thanks,

[swingtan]

repost.... http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=7977

If you want some specific info on the TE though, they are great units and interface very well with the V2 unit. Mine is nearly 8 months old now and is still going strong. I did need to replact the Bosch sensor just after Christmas, but that was because I ran over a large stick that was in the middle of the road and it flicked up hitting the sensor.

I also have the TE LA1 display hooked up. Both the V2 and the LA1 work well together and because they both work of the serial interface, there is not alteration of the WB data. I did a shot video of the 2 working together here....

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=WCDSMmRMtTM

Simon.

[Wasted Income]

My LC-1 is a POS.....the new one died in only 2 weeks.....the first one only lasted a year.

I HATE INNOVATE!!!

[Goldfinger911]

LC-1 was a POS. Worked for 10 months. Then it went TatsUp. The car tuned with it... then I put in an AEM with the serial output.. and then my entire VE map was lean everywhere. To eliminate the possibility of the AEM being bad... I installed a PLX M300 from my Supra and it read exactly like the AEM. SO... the LC-1 was reading lean even after all the calibration procedures followed.

[turbo_bu]

Thanks for the replies. Yes, I saw the original posts of the successes using the LC-1 with the V2 last year, but since then I have also heard of some of the problems with it. A few issues, I can deal with. A POS is something that I do not want to waste my time with.

I am hoping that other people have been having good luck with alternatives than the LC-1. I know that the Tech Edge, PLX and AEM units are supported with serial connections. Have heard a few problems with the AEM's but again, just trying to see how everything's been holding up / working.

Thanks for the feed back so far. Please continue to let us know what has worked and not worked for you.

[GAMEOVER]

My LC-1 worked flawlessly until I switched to the LM-2 Dual sensor. The only reason I switched was because of portability from vehicle to vehicle! The LM-2 is easy to connect and use......
I regret not buying the Lambda Pro made by ECM though....www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?lpro
Greg Banish speaks highly of it...:D

[Chevy366]

2 1/2 years and the LC-1 is still working great , secret , ground to the engine !
99.999999 % is ground problem with LC-1 .

[waterbug1999]

I bought one 3 years ago and it was dead out of the box. They sent me a nwe one and its been good to me ever since.

[nonnieselman]

my first one lasted almost 2 years.. the next 2 only lasted a couple weeks.

Now i have a PLX and it flucuates at idle and cruising.. but reads consistant at WOT.

its quite aggravating.

[mr.prick]

My LC-1 worked flawlessly until I switched to the LM-2 Dual sensor. The only reason I switched was because of portability from vehicle to vehicle! The LM-2 is easy to connect and use......
I regret not buying the Lambda Pro made by ECM though....www.ecm-co.com/product.asp?lpro
Greg Banish speaks highly of it...:D

You regret not dropping $3500 for this (http://www.powertrain.net/product_pages/lambda_page.htm)?

If I need to replace my LC-1 I will go with the AEM 30-4100 (http://www.aempower.com/ViewProduct.aspx?ProductID=73)
The accuracy and speed are close to the LC-1 and
maybe it doesn't eat sensors like it. :bad:

[exploder]

ive been happy with my plx dm100

[GAMEOVER]

You regret not dropping $3500 for this (http://www.powertrain.net/product_pages/lambda_page.htm)?

If I need to replace my LC-1 I will go with the AEM 30-4100 (http://www.aempower.com/ViewProduct.aspx?ProductID=73)
The accuracy and speed are close to the LC-1 and
maybe it doesn't eat sensors like it. :bad:

Holy Shitnizz!!! I didnt know the Lambda Pro was $3500. I thought it was close to the LM-2 in price....
"INNOVATIVE" ALL THE WAY!!!

[mr.prick]

$3500 is too much accuracy for me too. :hihi:

[joecar]

That's out of my budget.

[Bruce Melton]

As a freqent plug and play user, I like the LM-2 best, with serial connection to V2. Tracks right with dyno WB AFR.

Previous LM-1 was ok and so so was PLX (after serial mod).

To avoid significant lag with any of these, serial connection is essential, IMO.

[mistermike]

Lambda Pro has no RS 232 output. That's a deal breaker for me. I have a pair of first gen LC1's still going strong.

Innovate sells huge quantities of LC1's. Naturally some of them will fail and some will be sold to morons. However it is human nature for someone to selfishly believe that their broken unit is representative of thousands of others. Statistically, unhappy customers are 10 times more likely to speak up than satisfied ones. When was the last time someone started a thread entitled: "My XYZ is working fine. Just thought I'd let you know."?

Most of the problems with Innovate are ground offsets and idiot owners. Following instructions or using V2 serial input takes care of the first, a good slap takes care of the latter.

I wouldn't buy a paper clip from AEM. They stole the design of the Versafueler and dared the patentholder to sue them. That puts them permanently on my bad guy list.

[RWTD]

The NGK AFX is the most accurate of all the budget widebands. With that being said, I thought I'd share this information given on ModularFords.com by David Darge of Powertrain Electronics.

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1225791#post1225791
(post #84)


Air Fuel Ratio Reference Information: Posted 9/25/08

There appears to be a great amount of confusion in the area of air fuel ratio (AFR) meter readings and accuracy. This issue is very simple and straight forward when facts are presented and opinions are not used. Hello to all who read this post as this is David Darge from Powertrain Electronics. My experience and background started in 1985 with being the only USA technical engineer for Horiba Instruments. Horiba held the first UEGO sensor patent (1978) and manufactured the world’s first AFR analyzer called MEXA-101 in 1985. This analyzer being the only solution and early on as over 500 units were purchased by GM, Ford and Chrysler for $10,300 each. I also worked at Whipple Industries and with Kenny-Bell for the past 16 years and have experience using AFR data for well over 6000 hours. In 1998 we decided to market the AFM1000 which is AFR analyzer that is OEM industry tested and recommend by Kenne-Bell and considered a standard by many professionals.

Last year we helped with a test of many AFR meters/analyzers at Westec Performance engine dyno where 10-sensors were installed into a single exhaust collector. All of the data was recorded by Opto-22 (a world leader in data acquisition systems) on a 16-bit DAQ system with isolated channels to prevent any possible offsets caused by ground loops. The reference analyzer selected was the ECM Model 4800 manufactured and supplied by the world wide leader of analyzers. The Model 4800 ($12,000) is used and certified by GM, Ford, Chrysler, EPA and validated by NGK the sensor manufacturer. In fact GM high performance engine assembly plant uses 12 of the 4800’s to test every LS7 or now the LS9 engines everyday. The below test data shows to be very interesting as each meter was tested at various AFR’s while monitoring the EGT and battery voltage throughout each test. The complete test data to be posted soon as below is listed a single test at 12.30 AFR. When tested at 10.50 AFR some of the meters showed richer not leaner as indicated by the data below.

Data averaged (200 samples)

Delta from master
AFR Analyzer AFR
12.30 ECM4800 0.00

12.27 AFM1000 -0.02
13.05 PLX M300 +0.75

13.02 Innovate LC1 +0.72
13.34 DynoJet Commander +1.05

12.80 FAST A/F Meter +0.50
12.74 PLX R500 +0.44

1097 EGT (deg F)
13.81 Battery (volts)

FAST is a trademark of Competition Performance
Dynojet Commander is a trademark of Dynojet

As you can see most of the meters show an AFR leaner from the reference analyzer. The values range from 1.05 AFR leaner to 0.02 AFR richer. The data was averaged to take out any single sample error. In fact in the past we experienced more than one AFR meter reading drifted from 1.0 to 2.0 AFR’s plus or minus over time. This makes it impossible for anyone to predict the actual AFR error based on time or previous experience. Some dyno operators claim they can calculate the AFR error and make a correction factor based on time but this is not feasible. One of the AFR meter company warns to not use when the EGT is above 1330 deg F and then sometimes shuts down where the AFM1000 functions well to 1643 deg F. The AFM1000 will provide repeatability of 0.5% over the life time of the sensor with accuracy of better than 1.5% when the air calibration procedure is performed.

The AFR Meter Shootout article in Ford Muscle Magazine is not a true test because a reference analyzer was not used and errors could be caused when a common ground 8-bit data logger was used. Also it is not a proper procedure to hold a sensor near a calibration gas and expect to obtain a reference AFR. You may ask, How would I know that? Well while working at Horiba I wrote the calibration test procedure the automobile OEMs preformed on the MEXA101 and this procedure was not used for this AFR comparison test. Did you ever think, What if poorly rated analyzers were the most accurate and the best rated analyzers were the least accurate? How would you know if this was a valid test unless one included a reference analyzer that is certified in the USA and Europe such as the ECM 4800?

There are many professionals such as Jim Bell at Kenne-Bell and many other professional Ford tuners or engine builders that recommend and trust AFR data provided the AFM1000 when the fuel is gasoline, ethanol or methanol. The AFM1000 uses the best NGK sensor, is validated, well engineered, manufactured and tested by the world wide leader in air fuel ratio analyzers. In fact the AFM1000 uses the same NGK laboratory grade UEGO sensor as the Horiba Mexa110 and the ECM 4800. If you depend on accurate AFR for your business or performance engine then I would recommend using the AFM1000 and trust the data from now on.

As an addendum to this post, Mr. Darge has privately communicated that for the budget minded consumer and performance enthusiast, the NGK AFX (which is nothing more than an AFM-1600 with a modified display), tho not as accurate as an AFM-1000, is the best and most reliable of the "budget widebands" on the market. Although the AFX comes with a Bosch sensor by default, it is recommend to upgrade to the NTK sensor (approx. $150).

[joecar]

RWTD, welcome to the EFILive forum...:cheers:

[98 tigershark]

If thats even worth talking or arguing about seriously, I am going to go back to a Carburetor and sell all the junk that I have spent thousands on and then I will send the bill to innovate for damaging my motor with a known piece of junk. Not!!!!! This is ridiculous and we need a beer summit.
LOng live PLX , innovative and all of the peice of crap sensors all of us tuners have used for years.
Frankly I tried to be polite and asked not to have my equipment insulted and if this is how to teach people by calling their tuning equipment junk teach some were else!!! I hate know it alls that insult my stuff!!!
Ticked off
98 tigershark

[RWTD]

If thats even worth talking or arguing about seriously, I am going to go back to a Carburetor and sell all the junk that I have spent thousands on and then I will send the bill to innovate for damaging my motor with a known piece of junk. Not!!!!! This is ridiculous and we need a beer summit.
LOng live PLX , innovative and all of the peice of crap sensors all of us tuners have used for years.
Frankly I tried to be polite and asked not to have my equipment insulted and if this is how to teach people by calling their tuning equipment junk teach some were else!!! I hate know it alls that insult my stuff!!!
Ticked off
98 tigershark

Well, if that's the "mentality" you want to exhibit, then I'll happily insult you. ;)

EFIL and HPT both give us the ability to properly tune, but using subpar quality materials to do it with makes zero sense. I assume you'd rather the manufacturers to tune like you, 'eh? What's the old adage, anyone can teach a monkey...

[Chuck CoW]

My first LM2 SUCKED. Broke my balls...and died.

An innovate rep told me that the early LM2s had problems and arranged to replace mine 6 or 7 weeks later than promised, but I finally got it.

When I called a second time, the guy I spoke to denied that anyone ever told me anything like that...So I asked....

"Why did you send me a FREE REPLACEMENT LM2 if there was no issues with the early ones????" You been caught LYING!

The second works flawlessly with efi live serial, but...The sensors are GARBAGE!

They tell me "we don't understand...We sells tons of them..."

TRANSLATED: The sensors are cheap consumer grade Volkswagen GARBAGE. They will fail if you stare at them too long. 1 sensor only lasts for 2 jobs and we'll sell you tons of them (since you have no other options) and we'll get rich selling you crap!

Then, you call innovate and 3 different reps tell you 3 different stories...and then you get that young kid over there with the bad attitude that tells me it's my fault they fail...Who wants to punch him???? I do.

How can a dyno operator put other brand sensors in the tailpipe after the cat, spit moisture on them, drop them on the floor, and make hundreds of dyno pulls with them and the sensor the innovate uses dosen't last for 2 or 3 quick street tunes?????:rippedhand:

Anyone have a better suggestion for a portable wideband or a different sensor that might work with the LM2????

When I asked innovate if I could use a better quality sensor then their crap VW junk, they told me that the unit was designed on that sensor and that no other sensor could be made to work...

Is this crap or can someone help me find a sensor that will last that I can retrofit to the LM2???:help2:

Anyone want to buy 20 slightly used (dead) innovate WO2 sensors????Cheap!

Chuck CoW

[mr.prick]

LOL the Bosch sensor is not durable for %&$!
I have to replace mine yearly and they are going up in price.
I think it is the firmware that Innovate refuses to fix.
If a Reichswagen can use them and not need replacing so often why do I need to
replace mine so often?
I can't believe those chicken %&$!s answered the phone for you Chuck,
they treat they're customer like %&$! :cussing:

[turbo_bu]

Stupid question - I have an old LM-1 and it has a switch in it for chaning over from a Bosch (LSU style) to a NTK (L1H1). I have never had to do this since my old Bosch unit still appears to work just fine.

Are there similar options or settings on the LC-1 and LM2???

[jetblast]

i always had my suspicions that the average budget wb systems were not terribly accurate for wot tuning, and so i have always relied on several parameters for a sanity ck.{kr,nb02s,idc,ipw,ect}, but above all, is the visual inspection of the spark plug for a master reference. additionally, i do not trust interfacing the wb data, and so i always get it directly from source. i'm glad to know the average wb sensor sys. reads slightly leaner. i don't have egt indication or an exhaust gas analizer, but they would certainly be helpful in obtaining a solid wot tune. i have had the lm-1 for several seasons, and i'n very happy with the performance.

[mr.prick]

LC-1 = Bosch only
LM-2 = ?

[GAMEOVER]

LC-1 = Bosch only
LM-2 = ?

LM-2= Bosch only too! Thats from what I see.

[ScarabEpic22]

See this makes me nervous to throw down the $330+ for an LC1 and a WBO2 guage for my TBSS. Ive heard people are having huge issues with them, I talked to a local tuner who swears by AEMs WBO2s and says he has never had a problem with them. Bought a new one after 2-3 years and he does dyno tuning every day 5 days a week. I just read the WBO2 comparo and the AEM doesnt rank that high so Im lost. I just want a quality WBO2 that I can output to my V2 and a digital guage mounted in my dash. Thats it, I cant afford to be without one or have one fail as often as the LM2s are.

[swingtan]

My first LM2 SUCKED. Broke my balls...and died.


You have it fitted in the wrong place, it should be fitted to car.....

[GAMEOVER]

You have it fitted in the wrong place, it should be fitted to car.....

Funny guy...hahaha!!!