Convert 2000 F-Body OS to a Flex Fuel OS?

[coctostan]

I'm confused about what is possible with OS swapping and custom OS's. I would like to run the GM flex fuel sensor on my 2000 F-Body PCM. Is it possible to load an OS that offers the flex fuel table onto my PCM?

If that is not possible, could I swap a PCM and wiring harness from a Flex Fuel vehicle?

[coctostan]

Did I post this in the wrong forum?

[joecar]

No... anyone who knows hasn't yet seen this thread.

[coctostan]

Cool. I was just making sure. I'm not too familiar with this forum or EFIlive for that matter.

[coctostan]

Bueller?

[mr.prick]

How to run your LS1 on E85 (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/fueling-injection/602091-how-run-your-ls1-e85.html)

I don't think there is an OS that will fit in the 516k 411 PCM for flex fuel,
it's either one or the other.

[coctostan]

OS 12216125 from the L59 motors in 2002 Silverados and Yukons (and a few others) is a 512k OS and it has the Flex Fuel tables that use the sensor.

Would I be able to simply load that OS (and update fuel/spark tables, etc) or would I need to rewire everything? Anybody know where I can find wiring diagrams for different models?

[mr.prick]

I just looked over a 12216125.calz but all the flex options are empty.
If you have a file with values try using that with the sensor.
A few OS' have things that are not used i.e. lean cruise,
finding values to start with may be hard to find.

[coctostan]

I downloaded this one: http://holdencrazy.com/EFILive/TuneFileRepository/Stock/GMC/2002%20GMC%20Yukon%20Truck%20Automatic%20L59%205.3 %20Litre%20(PCM%2012216125).tun

It has the params table under "B3101 Engine Calibration/Fuel/Flex Fuel" and the stoich conversion under B3101.

I also compared pinouts between the 2002 5.3l and the 2000 5.7l and they are very similar. Maybe 8-9 pin differences (excluding EGR stuff which I don't run).

Is it as simple as loading this different OS onto my PCM and then wiring in the sensor? I'm new to EFIlive.

[GMPX]

No you can't just load that in. Each calibration is specific to a platform, eg F-body won't work in a truck (there is more to it than spark and fuel tables). Don't even bother trying.

[mr.prick]

He can't load both the OS and the calz?
IMO
Go E85 all the way or stay with gas.

[coctostan]

No you can't just load that in. Each calibration is specific to a platform, eg F-body won't work in a truck (there is more to it than spark and fuel tables). Don't even bother trying.

Maybe I should back up a second. This is a 2000 LS1 with its original Camaro PCM, but the motor is in a RX7 race car. I want to run the fuel sensor because I will run different mixtures of Ethanol to Gas. When it is super hot in the summer I will run E98 at times. In the cooler months it will be E70. Anyway, my PCM currently isn't doing much more than fuel, spark, idle etc. Does this help?

What about the possibility of swapping in the Flex Fuel truck ECU? I can get one for <$100. The wiring differences are minimal for my application.

For those that represent EFIlive, this is an opportunity for a sale. Most people in my area tune HPT so that is what we use now. If EFILive can help me to convert to Flex I will buy it.

[mr.prick]

If that OS came from a vehicle with a 12200411 PCM then it should be as "simple" as
loading the OS and calibrations along with the sensors, re-pinning, ETC.
The tune you posted appears very similar to 2001-2002 Fbody OS' except for the
flex fuel options.

It's no different than any hybrid conversion, although that PCM and OS maybe limited
to the type of use you want.
The conversion may end up being the easy part, tuning a modified car on flex
might be another story.

HPT can not do anything more than EFILive in your case in fact if
EFILive has more options with your PCM (RTACS).

You should post in the Conversions & Hybrids section of ls1tech
(http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-hybrids-28/) someone there has probably done this.

[dfe1]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to switch to a 1-meg PCM? Since the only concern is running the engine, as opposed to also interfacing with other modules, it could be as simple as changing PCM connectors/pinouts and programming the 1-meg PCM as necessary. 2003-2004 Hummer H2s ran this style PCM and had provisions for flex fuel. Some trucks also ran the 1-meg PCM through 2007 or 08.

[mr.prick]

:confused:
What other modules?
He said he wanted to make this work with the PCM he has.

[dfe1]

:confused:
What other modules?
He said he wanted to make this work with the PCM he has.
In many GM vehicles, particularly Corvettes, the PCM interfaces with other control modules, and the instrument panel, so there are often complications associated with installing a different PCM. In the case of an LS1 installed in an RX-7, the system is really a stand-alone controller, so any PCM could be used, provided the harness was properly configured. To switch to a 1-meg PCM, all that's required is to make sure the pin-outs at the PCM connectors are correct and that the sensors are compatible.

[mr.prick]

Once the PCM is separated from the fuse box, relays, BCM, ect. (Fbody)
all you need to do is change {G1201} to none.

Whether or not this is installed and working was never a topic of the thread,
he asked about swapping an OS in an '00 Fbody PCM and engine to run flex.

If I'm not mistaken the 1mb PCMs all use ETC and this would require the TB and pedal assembly, not as simple as changing the OS from a 2000 Fbody swap.

[dfe1]

Once the PCM is separated from the fuse box, relays, BCM, ect. (Fbody)
all you need to do is change {G1201} to none.

Whether or not this is installed and working was never a topic of the thread, he asked about swapping an OS in an '00 Fbody PCM and engine to run flex.
True, but he seemed to be having a problem locating a fully functional flex fuel calibration for the 1/2-meg PCM


If I'm not mistaken the 1mb PCMs all use ETC and this would require the TB and pedal assembly, not as simple as changing the OS from a 2000 Fbody swap.Also true, but routinely done. Sometimes, you have to be flexible.

[coctostan]

I'm not sure why I would need the 1meg PCM. OS 12216125 is on a 0411 PCM. It is the OS from the 2002-2003 trucks that used FlexFuel sensors. It should be a 24x crank sensor and non drive by wire.

Aside from 4-5 pins that might need to be rearranged, could I run this OS? I know the tune will need to be changed, but I think all other sensors are the same.

[mr.prick]

Any progress on this?

[gmh308]

If you have the ability to reflash your PCM, why dont you simply build different tunes for each E mix, that use different stoich settings.

The challenge will be to find a flex fuel sensor at the right price. $700 list, $400 street from GM, though maybe you already have one.

[mr.prick]

I said this at first but why not do it.
I have recently found out that despite not being mandated to use E10
in the winter time, we here in northern Arizona still get E10.
It is only mandatory in Maricopa and Tuscon counties.
I personally would like to know what is in my tank when I travel as well.

On a side note I wonder if the E85 tables could be added to an OS with
.cax files or modification to the .calz
A COS is most likely out of the question.

[98 tigershark]

I use V1 and need to pack around my PC to flash a tune But since you know what is going to be in your tank do you think it best as mentioned to just have 2 tunes. 1 E70 and 1 E98? Thats allot of work it would seem to do the sensor deal and questionable results. If you Use V2 it would seem you could flash the PCM with what ever fuel you need to use. Another thing that no one has mentioned Is the Road runner with a WBO2. That certainly would seem to let you dial in whatever AFR for the you are using on the fly with only a few logs since you are using a E70+.
That would be a cool and reliable setup?
Good Luck,
98 tigershark
[QUOTE=coctostan;98136] I want to run the fuel sensor because I will run different mixtures of Ethanol to Gas. When it is super hot in the summer I will run E98 at times. In the cooler months it will be E70. Anyway, my PCM currently isn't doing much more than fuel, spark, idle etc. Does this help?

[mr.prick]

I imagine if your tune is good with gas all you would need to do is change B3601
and make sure B3618 is suitable.
Provided you injectors could handle it.
PE EQ =1.17 would be fine for both gas and E10

[98 tigershark]

Hey mr.prick
I hope you are having a good weekend. I thought you had said that you only had pure Gasoline were you are located? Were we live there must be some new regs as finding a consistent fuel blend seems to be a real problem for me.
What do you think about RR and a WBO2 for a pseudo flex fuel setup. As I recall, don't you have a good deal on one. That might solve coctostan's issue in the best manor for what he wants. Also a great racing setup for his RX7 LS1 setup.
cheers,
98 tigershark

I said this at first but why not do it.
I have recently found out that despite not being mandated to use E10
in the winter time, we here in northern Arizona still get E10.
It is only mandatory in Maricopa and Tuscon counties.
I personally would like to know what is in my tank when I travel as well.

On a side note I wonder if the E85 tables could be added to an OS with
.cax files or modification to the .calz
A COS is most likely out of the question.

[mr.prick]

Remember the point of this thread? ;)
B3601 needs to be changed for type of fuel.
Like I said if your tune is good all you should have to change is the EQ1 value.
I read that we do not get E10 but since then I have talked to a truck driver that
was filling up the tanks at a local gas station.

He told me we get it in the winter even tho we aren't mandated to use it.
I am morally against Ethanol but it would be nice to get the extra power from it
and we do not have any choice in the winter. :bad:

Adding the FF tables via COS would probably be the only way to integrate them to an OS that does not have them although it might be possible with a .cax
I have not heard back from Ross yet. :gossip:

FYI we just had a big Vette show downtown. (I didn't go) :bad:
Corvettes jam downtown in classic display (http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=72593)

[98 tigershark]

What I meant was , if there was and AFR gauge and he had RR. An example is : AFR gauge says lets say 9 for E70 and he puts in E98 then the AFR would jump up to 12.5 approx. That would let you know and then w/RR all you would have to do is change that for the fuel on the fly sort of.
I do know it is not a flex fuel adjustment in the PCM but it does at least let you know what you have in the tank. As in Stoich of 14.63 AFR gauge says 15.00, you know you have E10. True not a flex fuel setup but the gauge does let you know what is in your tank and W/RR cant you change B3601 on the fly?
BTW thanks for the Vette show link. That was nice of you!! Have a good Sunday!
98 tigershark


Remember the point of this thread? ;)
B3601 needs to be changed for type of fuel.
Like I said if your tune is good all you should have to change is the EQ1 value.
I read that we do not get E10 but since then I have talked to a truck driver that
was filling up the tanks at a local gas station.

He told me we get it in the winter even tho we aren't mandated to use it.
I am morally against Ethanol but it would be nice to get the extra power from it
and we do not have any choice in the winter. :bad:

Adding the FF tables via COS would probably be the only way to integrate them to an OS that does not have them although it might be possible with a .cax
I have not heard back from Ross yet. :gossip:

FYI we just had a big Vette show downtown. (I didn't go) :bad:
Corvettes jam downtown in classic display (http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=72593)

[mr.prick]

Without the sensor you won't know exactly what E% you have.
I don't see how AFR will tell you, if LTFTs are being used they will get you to
B3601 regardless of what is in the tank.

If WBO2 reads lean or rich the RR will multiply BEN to VE or MAF to get to commanded,
but with our OS commanded AFR won't change on it's own.
You can set up the RR many different ways this is just one example.

Obviously you won't use the RR with LTFTs but in OL with B3605 or B3616(filtered).
B3605 is in EQ only and will/would change if you had the sensor and FF OS.

[LM7Tuner]

Why would you want a F-body to run flex fuel they are for hauling ass not saving fuel.

[mr.prick]

Why would you want a F-body to run flex fuel they are for hauling ass not saving fuel.
Read this thread. (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=11752&highlight=ethanol)
Ethanol is everywhere and in some cases can not be avoided.
Some people even say it can increase the hauling of ass. :music_whistling_1:

[98 tigershark]

I thought this is an RX7 LS1 Race Car, WOT no LTFTs! What you say is true eventualy and if the LTFTs arent disabled. This is with a WBO2 AFR gauge from the WBO2 directly, also!!

1.) But if you have a new tank of fuel (I would love to say gas but those days are gone) You will get an AFR reading on the WBO2 sensor that is approx +6% out on E10 if the AFR is set to 14.63 for gas for around 10 -20 minutes until the LTFTs adjust, That is right I think. But you can tell what is in your tank by the WBO2 AFR gauge for a short period it would seem and let you know also especially if the trims are way out. So with V2 you just carry a tune or two for the E%. It is not a flex fuel setup for sure but it is not to bad I think for a setup you already own so you dont have to buy a sensor for $400.00

2.) In the case of this thread and the RX7 LS1 race car it will be under WOT mostly, so no LTFTs. It is already E70-98 about 20-25% difference and the AFR gauge should show this w/out ltfts and . Then w/RR you change that (B3601) on the fly w/RR when you start the car up after it is warmed, right? How hard is that? I must be missing something here, I have not used RR but that is my understanding. No need to reflash and change on the fly and would be a great setup for this application as apposed to a flex fuel setup that is questionable?. Again not a flex fuel but this will work right w/RR. You have one and I dont so is that correct no need to reflash and change on the fly? The main idea here is the AFR gauge and what it says and then change b3601 on the fly. If what I have said is correct that is pretty close to a flex fuel setup as we can get I think?
Let me know,
98 tigershark :nixweiss::unsure::master:

Without the sensor you won't know exactly what E% you have.
I don't see how AFR will tell you, if LTFTs are being used they will get you to
B3601 regardless of what is in the tank.

If WBO2 reads lean or rich the RR will multiply BEN to VE or MAF to get to commanded,
but with our OS commanded AFR won't change on it's own.
You can set up the RR many different ways this is just one example.

Obviously you won't use the RR with LTFTs but in OL with B3605 or B3616(filtered).
B3605 is in EQ only and will/would change if you had the sensor and FF OS.

[mr.prick]

1: OL is not dependable IAT&ECT ect. will have an impact on VE/MAF.
If you command xx.xAFR and you have the RR configured to adjust with BEN
then it (RR) will continuously adjust to get AFR to match commanded "on the fly" VE/MAF up, VE/MAF down.
AFR will be as closed to perfect all the time,
but if you change E% in the tank without the ability of the PCM to change EQ1 on it's own then you still need to change B3601 manually which in turn will change B3605 and B3616 ect. :blahblah:

2. I don't know if simply changing fuel in the tank will directly affect AFR
because I have no way of knowing what exactly is in the tank. :hihi:
With VE/MAF being tuned before hand,
I imagine that AFR would be the same with gas as it would with E% thus the need to change B3601.
This may not be the case in OL but in CL LTFTs/STFTs will keep you @ EQ1
they won't change EQ1.
http://smiliesftw.com/x/deadhorse_1.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)
I could be wrong but I don't think you should use AFR difference to determine what's in the tank,
though I don't know from experience whether or not
simply changing/adding E will change AFR.

For OL the RR will keep AFR perfect, provided it is configure properly. :grin:
If you want to run straight off WBO2 for VE/MAF it is the only way to go.

In the case of the OP adding the sensor and FF OS is not a problem with a hybrid build, for you and I it's gas or E or find a way to integrate the sensor and OS. :angel_innocent:

[98 tigershark]

I am a thick headed Norwegian, but I think i finally got it. And yes,OL,WBO2 with RR with AFR VE and Maf is What I wiuld like to do this winter.
Thanks, its just frustrating :crash::throw: w/E10 here, it could be anything.
Thanks
98 tigershark:doh2::master:

[coctostan]

I've been away for a bit. I haven't made any progress on this as the car is still getting sorted. It was recently tuned on the 2002 F-Body OS. That is step one. The next step will be to transfer that tune to one of the flex-fuel OSs with the flex fuel sensor disabled. This way I will be able to see if it needs repinning (my research says it doesn't, but you know how that goes).

If I am able to get it running gasoline on a flex fuel OS without the sensor, I will buy a sensor, hook it up and start tuning for increasing amounts of ethanol.

To address the discussion from the past few days, I will say that I'm only interested in true mixture compensation. I don't want separate tunes for E98, E85/70 and 93 octane gas. I also want the tune tailored to the actual mixture, not a guess. The flex fuel OS can alter fuel/timing according to the mixture. Pretty slick.

I can get a sensor for about $350. If it works, that isn't all that bad.

The reason I want to run Ethanol in a N/A road race car is because it will run much cooler and potentially with more power. I have access to E98 and there is much E85 around here. Unfortunately, sometimes I will be in an area where there is no access to ethanol and I will end up with a mixture of gasoline and ethanol. It could be 50/50.

[mr.prick]

I am in full agreement with your reason for doing this now,
at first I said use one or the other but this "swap" is going to be awesome.
It would be nice to have a COS that would incorporate the FF tables to
an F/Ybody OS, I bet it would be easy for Ross to do. :hihi:

From what I have read the old FF sensor is more accurate
than the newer "virtual" setup.

Good luck with your project.