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View Full Version : Injector flow rate maxxed out fuel gauge error



hymey
July 1st, 2009, 10:42 PM
I have done some research into injector flow rate and trip meter/fuel gauge error. Everyone is aware the maximum hard limit is 63 pounds per hour in the injector flow rate table. So my siemens 63 pound injectors at 58 psi actually flow more like 73lb/hr. So my fuel calcs are 15% out. If I am reading 8L/100kms I am actually well into the 9s.

Another problem we face is that if IFR is low from bigger injectors and we cant raise the IFR number high enough. VE is then low and then g/cyl calculations is also low.Higher IFR is leaner mixture hence higher VE. If we could increase IFR to 73 or more we would have to increase VE which fixes the 15% error and our fuel gauge calcs are correct.

Now the e38 has a lot of untouchable hard limits. IFR tables being one of them, there have been suggestions of increasing the voltage multiplier and IAT multipliers, but this DOES NOT WORK. I have changed all of them to 1.1, 1.5, 3! and still no change so the hard limit is there!.

There is a way though. Tables B0179 and B0180. B0180 we don't have to touch it is only a multiplier and if you are SD anything over 0 is ignored anyway,But I recommend you change this table to 0.1. Now B0179 is very important. I ALWAYS tune cars with this at a constant value. Because as speed increases the mixture richens by a fair bit which is why i had issues with afrs richer in higher gears at speeds over 130km/h. This is a charge temp table, based on the fact that as speed increases VE is more efficient so more fuel is added. Now this has caused me nothing but issues and if anything the mixture needs to be leaned if load increases, which is what I have done with my own car...and numerous other e38s. The table does work. Higher numbers leaner, lower numbers are richer.

Now what I have done with my own vehicle is work out the fuel gauge error of 15%, I initially tuned my car with the whole B0179 table at .50 and B0180 at 0.100. I increased the B0179 table 15% which decreased my VE by 15% which was noticed by both w/b and STFT. I then increased the whole VE table by 15% to correct VE and AFR's. Now my g/cyl is 15% higher and where it should be and I am looking forward to checking the trip meter next tank to see how close it is. I am hoping within two percent if it's still too low I will increase B0179 and the VE. If error is high I will decrease the B0179 table and VE by the correct amount. Atleast I now know and am confident that my g/cyl calculation is correct.

I wanted to share this info in hoping some other guys can try it just to ensure it works across the board. Very promising.

cheers

Joel

GMPX
July 2nd, 2009, 11:27 AM
Thanks for your post Joel, the injector limit is annoying (though GM sorted it in the 2009+ OS's), we looked at modifying the earlier OS's but it's just too massive!
I had also said in the other thread the IFR multipliers would not work, you can't make a 16bit number bigger than 65535 no matter how much you multiply it.

Cheers,
Ross

oztracktuning
July 24th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Its unfixable, an old issue Joel. You can either use the FAST 65lb at 4bar injectors and be close or change the cars entire system to a E67!

hymey
July 24th, 2009, 04:21 PM
Hi steve, it definately works, from ur reply it appears u have not checked this, once the injector tables are maxxed to 8 i just altered the charge temps tables and all fixed.

oztracktuning
July 24th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Hey Joel,
Ross has just stated that it doesn't work. This was an old issue.

What i meant doesnt work is the fuel usage is unchanged. You may get the g/cylinder to report right though.

hymey
July 24th, 2009, 06:58 PM
ok, as u said though it corrects the g/cyl which gets the ve right. I have my fuel gauge working accurately with the 63 pounders.

oztracktuning
July 24th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Its the fuel usage data and L/100km values. Tripmeter etc that is the problem, if that is fixable it is good news.

hymey
July 25th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Yeah I checked the trip meter, its spot on against the factory gps.

ringram
July 27th, 2009, 12:58 AM
Ross can we flash to an 09 OS? Or does that kill ECU's?

Also guys I use voltage mod with a factor of 2.2 and while the trip meter is probably bad as well as the g/cyl fueling seems spot on.

Hymey your plan sounds interesting. I too have the siemens injectors.

The Alchemist
November 7th, 2010, 03:42 PM
Hi Hymey, I'm tring to do the VVT in this VE ute and am having issues with a weird 0.3ms jump in IPW at a calc load of 32g/s. At 2700rpm this becomes 0.2ms at the same load 0f 32g/s. screen shot and log attached. I have B0179 and B0180 standard at the moment. Could this be my problem? I turned off dynamics and all pulse adders made no difference. I have 65lbs Fast injectors with my IFR table fudged at 8g/s at 512 delta map :)
I have been creeping up on the problem with the slightest of throttle movements on the dyno and me VVE table is smooth around the problem area.

Cheers,
Mike

The Alchemist
November 7th, 2010, 04:02 PM
nah just set it all to 0.25 didn't make any difference al all. Bugger!
what next

hymey
November 7th, 2010, 09:36 PM
Ross can we flash to an 09 OS? Or does that kill ECU's?

Also guys I use voltage mod with a factor of 2.2 and while the trip meter is probably bad as well as the g/cyl fueling seems spot on.

Hymey your plan sounds interesting. I too have the siemens injectors.

Hey mate, long time no hear. I normally do this mod with 63 pounders to bring the g/s back into line and the vve gets more "real" values and doesn't mess up the timing tables. We know that to get fueling back where it should be we have to increase the flow rate much more then 8. The voltage multipliers haven't worked for me.

hymey
November 7th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Let me have a think about that one Mike just got home mate will get back to you very soon. I have not come across it personally but a friend of mine has in Melbourne.

Is it running Mafless or Maf on Mike? If it is Maf tune could try turning off the vve with the high speed fuelling table which is sety at 4000rpm stock set it to below idle speed and see if it logs differently. As the VVE is pure mathematical calcs, more so then any other commodore pcm ve, it is not as simple as command x value in VVE and get y amount of pulse width.

Is there is missfire ?

Joel

The Alchemist
November 8th, 2010, 08:34 AM
Hi,
running in full open loop in Mafless with the Maf unplugged and failed in the tune. :help2:
I'm glad someone else has seen this!!! thought I was going a bit mad :shock:
cheers,
Mike

oztracktuning
November 8th, 2010, 10:43 AM
I use the same injectors in my own car and the average fuel is about 0.3L/100km worst than indicated. The error gets worst the bigger the injectors. There is nothing that can be done to fix the error. Some of the more recent OS's let the correct injector numbers to be entered and then there isnt a problem

The Alchemist
November 8th, 2010, 01:05 PM
Hi Oztrack, have you seen this problem with the IPW jumping up and down at certain g/s loads > see my earlier post on this thread.....
Mike

eboggs_jkvl
November 16th, 2010, 07:50 AM
Has the "fix" for the limit been published? I just hit this with my Edelbrock SC and the 53 PSI injectors. What harm does this flatline cause on my E38 ECM and my engine. Can we flash in the 09 ZR1 into my E38?

Elmer

hymey
November 16th, 2010, 09:45 AM
Hi Elmer,

I would not worry about the fuel gauge so much, But work on modifying the other tables out lined so it gets your VE numbers back in check and allows "real" accurate g/cyl values which makes it easy for tuning AND real torque values to the A6 if you have one. This works wonders with A6 tuning..... You will know how far it is out after you swapped out injectors and seen the error of fuel % with fuel trims after the inj tables are maxxed out. It can be corrected then via the intake charge tables. This table has tremendous benefits to in drag racing where under high loads in taller gears the afrs go richer which may hurt hp a little you can lean it out a touch after a certain speed ie 140 or 160km/h. It can be worth an extra mph or so. Hope this helps.

Joel

E67boostquest
December 9th, 2010, 05:37 PM
I bought FIC 52# injectors rated at 3 bar. My fuel system runs a hard 4 bar... So I get over the 7.999 hard limit. I'm not sure what to put into the table now... it goes past 8 well before 80 KPA. So what am I supposed to do? Also the car will be boosted. What will happen to my VVE as boost rises and starts to reverse the flow, how is it going to react, it'll start to lean out even though I have my VVE dialed in?

joecar
December 10th, 2010, 05:01 AM
The 80kPa you mention might be vacuum... post your calibration file here (actually, post it in your other thread).

If the IFR is limited to a max value, then you may have to scale the IFR and VE tables.