nitrous help

[blue99ta]

Hello everyone, I have added a zex nitrous kit to my 99 ta. I have a 402 ls2 with a 239/242 cam. I want to spray a 180 shot. I have read that its better to place it after the maf. However I read that after install. I have it before the maf. I know I need to pull some timing before useing the nitrous. Can I get some help on where I would pull timing and how much? I have a wideband installed for doing this. Any info would be great!:rockon:

[blue99ta]

do I use b5913 to set spark? for the nitrous?

[5.7ute]

Without seeing your set up it is hard to give any reasonable advice. Especially when playing with something that can easily kill your motor if done incorrectly.
First up is this a wet or dry shot you are spraying? Is your IAT sensor in the maf or seperate? Is the gas spraying before or after the IAT (if seperate from the maf)?

[blue99ta]

Sorry for not letting you know more info.. I have a wet nitrous kit, spraying before the maf and iat is in the air box so the nitrous sprays after it. the nitrous doesnt effect the iat I have looked at the log.. I took out 4 degrees and ran a log with nitrous it was at 13.9 afr. so I put in a bigger jet for fuel. went from a .033 to a .040 and now im at 13.3 afr. but no kr.

[waterbug1999]

Wet shots go after the MAF... Dry shots go before the MAF and use injectors for fuel.

[5.7ute]

Sorry for not letting you know more info.. I have a wet nitrous kit, spraying before the maf and iat is in the air box so the nitrous sprays after it. the nitrous doesnt effect the iat I have looked at the log.. I took out 4 degrees and ran a log with nitrous it was at 13.9 afr. so I put in a bigger jet for fuel. went from a .033 to a .040 and now im at 13.3 afr. but no kr.

Can you post up your tune & a log? Spraying a WET shot before the maf should run way too rich not around 13 like you are.(Still way too lean)
Is the fuel solenoid fed from a stand alone tank or the fuel rail?

[blue99ta]

Ok I have been looking for a plate system to move the jets. here is my log but I dont have the lm2 connected to efi its a handheld.
Let me know if the tune is loading.

[waterbug1999]

Why you shifting at 6300 rpm?

You dont need a plate system, just put the nozzle in the bellows facing towards the throttle body. I have a plate system.

[5.7ute]

Having a quick look at your log shows a few problems that I believe you need to sort out.
First is that it appears you are setting a p0103 dtc when spraying. This will be caused from the maf measuring both the fuel & nitrous as airmass & hitting the upper frequency limit. To address this you will need to move the nozzle to after the maf, or tune in speed density.
Injector duty cycle is exceeding 100%. This may be due to a supply issue that has been tuned around or too small an injector. Since when spraying you also have the fuel jet running, and are still reading lean on your wideband, I would be looking at fuel supply.
I would also be getting your LM-2 set up to log in Efilive asap.

[blue99ta]

Why you shifting at 6300 rpm?

You dont need a plate system, just put the nozzle in the bellows facing towards the throttle body. I have a plate system.

do you think I need to shift lower? That is where the guy at the dyno said i should shift.. any info would be great..

[blue99ta]

Having a quick look at your log shows a few problems that I believe you need to sort out.
First is that it appears you are setting a p0103 dtc when spraying. This will be caused from the maf measuring both the fuel & nitrous as airmass & hitting the upper frequency limit. To address this you will need to move the nozzle to after the maf, or tune in speed density.
Injector duty cycle is exceeding 100%. This may be due to a supply issue that has been tuned around or too small an injector. Since when spraying you also have the fuel jet running, and are still reading lean on your wideband, I would be looking at fuel supply.
I would also be getting your LM-2 set up to log in Efilive asap.

Ok I will order a bellows or plate before spraying again and also look into a fuel pump. I had 36 lb injectors when I got the engine. Texas speed said those would be fine. Do you think I need to get biggger ones?

[waterbug1999]

do you think I need to shift lower? That is where the guy at the dyno said i should shift.. any info would be great..

My h/c combo I have is shifting at 6600. My buds 402 TA hes shifting at 7000+.

If you have a build 402 (which it looks like you do) I think having the car shift that early is leaving some power on the table, you are barely over where a stock car would shift.

[5.7ute]

What is your max injector duty cyle at WOT without the spray? Since you are running a wet shot they only need to be large enough to cover this condition.

[blue99ta]

Here is a log without spray, I ran it to check timing.

[5.7ute]

That log shows your injectors should be fine.
A few more questions though. Why are you commanding so rich an AFR under WOT conditions? Does your actual/commanded AFR match when running N/A? Where are you getting the fuel supply for the nitrous shot? Fuel rail or stand alone?

[blue99ta]

the wideband says i'm at 12.8 afr. I just had it tuned by a guy who tunes lsx motors pretty well. lsxtune.com I'm using the fuel rail for the fuel. I think I will change the fuel pump this weekend see if that helps..and will move the spray location. the guys who tuned used hptuners and we had the wideband hooke up with it so he can see what its doing. I really want to thank you for all your help..

[blue99ta]

is there any way I can have the tune add more fuel ?

[5.7ute]

the wideband says i'm at 12.8 afr. I just had it tuned by a guy who tunes lsx motors pretty well. lsxtune.com I'm using the fuel rail for the fuel. I think I will change the fuel pump this weekend see if that helps..and will move the spray location. the guys who tuned used hptuners and we had the wideband hooke up with it so he can see what its doing. I really want to thank you for all your help..

I dont want to sound like an ass here, but you are lucky that the maf frequency was pegging & causing the PCM to enter Speed Density mode. There is only some timing taken from a small area in your high octane table between 0.60-0.80g/cyl. If SD mode hadnt been hit, which will make the pcm use the low octane table, you would have been commanding 28 deg advance all the way to 1.2g/cyl. Possibly causing some serious engine damage.
Personally, I would be starting from scratch & getting your N/A airmass model right before spraying.

[5.7ute]

is there any way I can have the tune add more fuel ?

Have a search on AutoVE & Automaf. This will explain better than me on what you are trying to achieve.

[blue99ta]

Ok thanks for taking time to help. What should I work on first with the na mass? I thought it was pretty good but shows what i know... any advice?

[5.7ute]

Ok thanks for taking time to help. What should I work on first with the na mass? I thought it was pretty good but shows what i know... any advice?

IMO the first thing to do is get your wideband logging into Efilive. If you have the V2 unit the best way is to get a serial cable from TAquickness. If you have the V1 you will need to go from the EXT.ADx analog ports with the supplied cable(if they ship one with the lm-2). Once this is done you will need to ensure that your IFR table is correct for your injectors & rail pressure & then go through the AutoVE & Automaf procedures.
Fuel supply definately seems to be a problem so you will need to check that out as well. Logging fuel pressure is a good way but it costs a few dollars to set up.

[blue99ta]

how do I tell what version of efi i have?
i think i have v 7
How do I get ahold of taquickness?

[waterbug1999]

how do I tell what version of efi i have?
i think i have v 7
How do I get ahold of taquickness?

shoot him a PM. :hihi:

[5.7ute]

how do I tell what version of efi i have?
i think i have v 7
How do I get ahold of taquickness?

V1 or V2 is the flashcan device. V7.xx is the software. If you have a look at the heading on this forum V1 is the one on the left. V2 on the right.

[blue99ta]

Ok I think I have found out what the problem is. I took the fuel solenoid apart and cleaned it. I then with the car off and nitrous off hit wot. the fuel sprayed out like crazy, before I cleaned it it wouldnt spray much at all. Now I run a 12.4 with the .033 back in. So now I'm going to ordr a fuel filter and try again. Thanks for all the help!

[waterbug1999]

you moved your nozzle AFTER the MAF now right?

[blue99ta]

going to this weekend..:cheers:

[waterbug1999]

I still cant believe you are spraying a wet shot before the MAF... You should get the Nirto Daves plate, its a nice piece.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk151/waterbug19999/fuelcell001.jpg

[5.7ute]

I still cant believe you are spraying a wet shot before the MAF...

I agree. At a minimum I would ensure that the timing is pulled right up to the 1.2g/cyl limit. In that log you posted you can see the first hit of the gas run up to 28deg advance.:doh2: Luckily the P0103 code set before the second hit or damage could have been done to the engine.

[joecar]

I'm no expert, but I agree with what 5.7ute (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?u=1610) and waterbug1999 (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?u=7079) have said.

Log DYNAIR and DYNCYLAIR; get rid of some other pids (get channel count to 24 or less).

HO2Sx1 voltages indicate you're lean (altho do not rely on those, get a wideband or two).

If you have a wet plate before the MAF, then the MAF getting wet will cause it to misread.

[joecar]

Jody, nice clean car...:cheers:

[waterbug1999]

Jody, nice clean car...:cheers:

Thanks Joe, too bad im not as inclined with the software/tuning part. lol

[blue99ta]

how much do those plates run?

[waterbug1999]

http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog/products.asp?group=35&model=51&dept=11

[blue99ta]

thanks waterbugg,

[blue99ta]

I agree. At a minimum I would ensure that the timing is pulled right up to the 1.2g/cyl limit. In that log you posted you can see the first hit of the gas run up to 28deg advance.:doh2: Luckily the P0103 code set before the second hit or damage could have been done to the engine.

Ok I really appreciate all the help you guys. I have changed timing and I'm going to move the spray. Should I change any timing in the lower octane table? Just incase it uses it? it's set to 25 degrees around those areas. I also found my relay wasnt working to spray the fuel. I will get everything working right and move everything and log again this weekend and let you know if I need a new engine..:blahblah: I would like to get a dyno tune done I sent a pm to sr tuning to see how much it will be. Thanks again for all the help. I'm learning as I go.

[waterbug1999]

Ok I really appreciate all the help you guys. I have changed timing and I'm going to move the spray. Should I change any timing in the lower octane table? Just incase it uses it? it's set to 25 degrees around those areas. I also found my relay wasnt working to spray the fuel. I will get everything working right and move everything and log again this weekend and let you know if I need a new engine..:blahblah: I would like to get a dyno tune done I sent a pm to sr tuning to see how much it will be. Thanks again for all the help. I'm learning as I go.

Since I have a 4000 stall, I retarded timing from there on up (thats the way I used to do it, now I have a timing tuner).. So, you would want to do it from 3600 on up. Dont worry about the RPM's down low.

25 * of timing might still be too much, depneds on your shot size. My TA runs 28* full timing and I pull 4* for a 100 shot, so far so good but each car is different.

I dont know how your set up is, but for your two noids (fuel and N20) should be on the same relay. Here is the basic wiring with a window switch.

This how exactly mine is wired.

http://www.fquick.com/images/vehicles/full/382147031.jpg?1181310243

[waterbug1999]

All the different combos can be found here.

http://www.fquick.com/garages/viewgallery.php?albumid=1&carid=3821

[5.7ute]

Ok I really appreciate all the help you guys. I have changed timing and I'm going to move the spray. Should I change any timing in the lower octane table? Just incase it uses it? it's set to 25 degrees around those areas. I also found my relay wasnt working to spray the fuel. I will get everything working right and move everything and log again this weekend and let you know if I need a new engine..:blahblah: I would like to get a dyno tune done I sent a pm to sr tuning to see how much it will be. Thanks again for all the help. I'm learning as I go.

Easy way to save your engine is to log a run without the gas bottle on but the system armed. This will ensure the fuel side of things are working before you hit the gas. With a 100 shot I aim for around 10.4-10.6 without the gas which gives me around 11.5 with the bottle on.
I would also remove some timing from the low octane table in the sprayed areas to give the pcm some room to learn if necessary.

[waterbug1999]

Easy way to save your engine is to log a run without the gas bottle on but the system armed. This will ensure the fuel side of things are working before you hit the gas. With a 100 shot I aim for around 10.4-10.6 without the gas which gives me around 11.5 with the bottle on.
I would also remove some timing from the low octane table in the sprayed areas to give the pcm some room to learn if necessary.

As in N20 I am assuming.. Just making that clear so he doesnt spray straight N20.

[5.7ute]

As in N20 I am assuming.. Just making that clear so he doesnt spray straight N20.

Thanks for clarifying that. I forgot you guys talk funny.:doh2:

[blue99ta]

Ok that is a great idea. I didnt know i could do that.. I also have found out I cant get the relay I got with my system anymore.. I'm looking for one that will work. Any info on which relay you use would be awesome!

[5.7ute]

Ok that is a great idea. I didnt know i could do that.. I also have found out I cant get the relay I got with my system anymore.. I'm looking for one that will work. Any info on which relay you use would be awesome!

I just use a standard 12V 40amp automotive relay. This way I only have to keep the one spare relay for a couple of systems I have on my car.(linelocker etc)
This also removed any confusion with the pins as the relay I got with my kit was a switching relay. Mess those up & you could end up in strife.

[waterbug1999]

I need to ask, what kind of system you have? If your system is a single stage then you only need one relay.. IMO, you say you want to spray a 180 shot, Id hit all that at once and let'er rip!

[5.7ute]

I need to ask, what kind of system you have? If your system is a single stage then you only need one relay.. IMO, you say you want to spray a 180 shot, Id hit all that at once and let'er rip!

An 8" tyre is lucky to hold a 100hp shot here. I throw in the 150 pill when I feel like blacktracking.:rockon:
I use a seperate relay to ground the pin for the nitrous tables. I also use the same type of relay for the linelocker etc. One spare suits all.

[waterbug1999]

An 8" tyre is lucky to hold a 100hp shot here. I throw in the 150 pill when I feel like blacktracking.:rockon:
I use a seperate relay to ground the pin for the nitrous tables. I also use the same type of relay for the linelocker etc. One spare suits all.

I guess that depends on your track prep.. I've cut 1.45 60 on my stock 16x8" rim with a 255/50/16 MT DR with no problem. My other bud has a stroked 402 in his TA and is hooks a 1.42" on the same tire set up..

I hope the OP has something wider then a 8" wheel being that hes at ~500hp N/A to begin with.

Why do you have a relay for your line lock?

[5.7ute]

I guess that depends on your track prep.. I've cut 1.45 60 on my stock 16x8" rim with a 255/50/16 MT DR with no problem. My other bud has a stroked 402 in his TA and is hooks a 1.42" on the same tire set up..

I hope the OP has something wider then a 8" wheel being that hes at ~500hp N/A to begin with.

Why do you have a relay for your line lock?

The track prep was the best its ever been here a couple of weeks ago. The times the top fuel bikes were pulling showed that. Unfortunately just under 500rwhp wont get down to the track without serious suspension mods. That is something I do not wish to do as the vehicle is a genuine daily driver that pulls work duties.
The driver (me) also needs a kick up the ass to start getting off the line properly. Unfortunately when the last amber is starting to glow the clutch is dumped & its time to hold on.:doh2: Best 60 so far is a low 1.6. 1.5's should be obtainable with a bit more smarts at the line.

The line lock is on a relay to keep the dash switches wiring small & on the one main power feed.

[blue99ta]

Ok guys, I got a relay today moved the spray behind the maff. I just threaded the maf behind the wires. Also changed timing like you said and now wow! take a look at the log if you have time. I ran a 12.3 afr and i'm going to change the fuel to a 35 a buddy had one so that should put me well in the boundries. It felt very good but I noticed that the maf is now showing a lot lower grams. Why is that? I figured the nitrous was just moving that much air past it? it used to top out at 439 now ist around 280ish which I have ran NA. I'm running 24 degrees timing and that where its at I think its doing great! let me know what you think. Also I think both of you have awesome cars! I wish I lived closer to the track.:hihi:

[blue99ta]

I need to ask, what kind of system you have? If your system is a single stage then you only need one relay.. IMO, you say you want to spray a 180 shot, Id hit all that at once and let'er rip!

Yes its a single stage ZEX kit.

[5.7ute]

Ok guys, I got a relay today moved the spray behind the maff. I just threaded the maf behind the wires. Also changed timing like you said and now wow! take a look at the log if you have time. I ran a 12.3 afr and i'm going to change the fuel to a 35 a buddy had one so that should put me well in the boundries. It felt very good but I noticed that the maf is now showing a lot lower grams. Why is that? I figured the nitrous was just moving that much air past it? it used to top out at 439 now ist around 280ish which I have ran NA. I'm running 24 degrees timing and that where its at I think its doing great! let me know what you think. Also I think both of you have awesome cars! I wish I lived closer to the track.:hihi:

When you were spraying before the maf the fuel & nitrous were being measured as airmass. This was causing the injectors to dump more fuel until the maf was pegged. You do not need the maf to measure any more airflow as the nitrous jet is taking care of fuelling for you.
FWIW 439g/sec is the maximum that your maf table is set to read. I gauruntee it would have been much higher if the calibration let it do so.
Around 24 degrees is where mine sits at on a 100 shot. Each vehicle is different though so a trip to the dyno is needed to gain the best out of your combo.
IMO 12.3 AFR on the gas is also too lean. I would be looking around the low 11's, but again, a trip to the dyno will work out what the engine wants.

[waterbug1999]

11.8 - 12.3 is where I shoot for my AF on the spray.. I also run TR7 plugs and pull 4 * of timing on my 100 shot.. For extra insurance I had 102 octane in the stand alone.

Plan on running a 150-175 shot as soon as i get the time to hit the track.

[blue99ta]

Ok sweet, I'm not getting any knock at all so this is a good thing right? I will put the .035 in and shoot for 12.0 and see. I would love to go to the dyno!

[waterbug1999]

you do have colder plugs in as well right?

[blue99ta]

I did order plugs with the kit. which ones do you use and what gap?

[waterbug1999]

What plugs came with it? The norm for a N20 plug gap is .035".

[blue99ta]

i will pull one tomorrow and look i just cant remember.. but i think they are gaped at 50

[waterbug1999]

i will pull one tomorrow and look i just cant remember.. but i think they are gaped at 50

Get at least a cold range of 6 or even better a 7 if your going to run your 180 shot.. Gap at .035" and on that big of a shot, I would pull at least 6* of timing if not a few more to be safe.

[blue99ta]

Ok guys here is a run with spray what do you think?

[blue99ta]

Here is a NA run at the track yesterday..

[waterbug1999]

What did you run? 132 MPH, a 10.3 would be my guess.

What was your A/F?

[blue99ta]

What did you run? 132 MPH, a 10.3 would be my guess.

What was your A/F?

AFR was 12.0 it was 100 degrees out and that was on a long stretch of road.. i just posted a track run. I hit a 12.2 NA with a 1.8 60' i spun a lil off the line because I had the shocks pretty tight.

[waterbug1999]

AFR was 12.0 it was 100 degrees out and that was on a long stretch of road.. i just posted a track run. I hit a 12.2 NA with a 1.8 60' i spun a lil off the line because I had the shocks pretty tight.

gotcha... I see your IAT's are 110* +.

12.0 A/F on the jug is fine IMO.


I did see that N/A your TB % is at 97% and on the jub its 100%.. I wonder why?

Whats your elevation?

[blue99ta]

gotcha... I see your IAT's are 110* +.

12.0 A/F on the jug is fine IMO.


I did see that N/A your TB % is at 97% and on the jub its 100%.. I wonder why?

Whats your elevation?

3850 it was way hot out.. kicked my azzzzzz....

[blue99ta]

gotcha... I see your IAT's are 110* +.

12.0 A/F on the jug is fine IMO.


I did see that N/A your TB % is at 97% and on the jub its 100%.. I wonder why?

Whats your elevation?

the iat's are something i have had trouble adjusting/.. the tuner wanted them around 60 i couldnt get them below 75/90 im not sure why..

[waterbug1999]

The IAT is the temp of the incomming air.. Not much you can do about that.

[blue99ta]

The IAT is the temp of the incomming air.. Not much you can do about that.

I was thinking air counts. they are way high also.. I have tried setting and resetting them time after time to get the idle right and I have it doing ok sometimes but other times it will idle to 25 mph.

[98 tigershark]

Hey Guys,

It is my experience that 402 is a pretty hot motor all by its self and I would think a new RX-C5-FPKG Racetronixs fuel Pump System is needed along with larger injectors (maybe 42 LB) and an adjustable fuel regulator with a gauge, especially since you are spraying a healthy shot. I am not to sure about the stock fuel pump in LBs per hour but last I checked you should be pulling to much horsepower for that. May be I came in a little late on this thread but it is always better to be safe than sorry. It is not that expensive as compared to a new motor now that you seem to have the NOS setup right. You can upgrade the fuel pump and cheat a little more out of your injectors but with the NOS + gas added it makes me nervous for you.
I have never sprayed but do know a guy who toasted his LS2 402 from fuel starvation with a 150 shot of NOS in a Camero. I think he even had the same NOS brand as you do.
Good luck and I will cross my fingers for you as you have already received some great advice from these guys. It is possible that your maf could also been damaged from the NOS hitting the MAF elements and do not know it yet. Those are very sensitive to anything but air going across them.
Regards,
98 tigershark

[blue99ta]

Hey Guys,

It is my experience that 402 is a pretty hot motor all by its self and I would think a new RX-C5-FPKG Racetronixs fuel Pump System is needed along with larger injectors (maybe 42 LB) and an adjustable fuel regulator with a gauge, especially since you are spraying a healthy shot. I am not to sure about the stock fuel pump in LBs per hour but last I checked you should be pulling to much horsepower for that. May be I came in a little late on this thread but it is always better to be safe than sorry. It is not that expensive as compared to a new motor now that you seem to have the NOS setup right. You can upgrade the fuel pump and cheat a little more out of your injectors but with the NOS + gas added it makes me nervous for you.
I have never sprayed but do know a guy who toasted his LS2 402 from fuel starvation with a 150 shot of NOS in a Camero. I think he even had the same NOS brand as you do.
Good luck and I will cross my fingers for you as you have already received some great advice from these guys. It is possible that your maf could also been damaged from the NOS hitting the MAF elements and do not know it yet. Those are very sensitive to anything but air going across them.
Regards,
98 tigershark

Hey there, never to late. I agree and have been talking to some friends here at home. I'm putting in a after market fuel pump and a fuel pressure gauge as well as a fuel pressure cut off. I have parked the car for winter till I can get all the safty stuff I need to make sure the engine will live. Thanks for any and more info you have. is there any way to tell if the MAF is messed up a little?