New beginner's Tuning Guide (DVD) from Calibrated Success

[eficalibrator]

After lots and lots of prodding, I finally caved and made a training DVD for the GM crew. This DVD walks through the fundamentals of tuning using aftermarket tools on the dyno with live demos for both MAF and VE tuning. I have also included a section on proper fuel injector characterization, along with a data disc with reference data for many popular injectors to take the guesswork out of getting those SD60's (or 80's, or FRPP 30's, or green tops, or....) to work right all the time. Most of the DVD was shot when all I had was brandX GM tools, but I added supplements to each section showing exactly what the corresponding tables look like in EFILive, so no need to worry about the confusion there.

The DVD will be sold through Summit Racing as part number SME-DVD-1 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SME-DVD-1/). I'm planning to ship this week to Summit, so they'll be filling orders soon after. As an added bonus, I'm going to give anyone who buys the disc from Summit a 100% credit of the disc purchase price toward my advanced GM class within one year. You simply will not find better instructional material out there today and my aim is to deliver it in a clear, accurate, and useful manner. Many thanks to Paul and Ross for helping me get set up with their hardware recently. You'll be seeing more and more EFILive in my advanced classes as we move forward.

[joecar]

Cool...:cheers:...thanks Greg.

[mr.prick]

You'll be seeing more and more EFILive in my advanced classes as we move forward.

So you've realized the inferiority of PPtuners? :hihi:

[WeathermanShawn]

I will look for it when it comes out.

I have learned a lot from your book(s) on tuning.

Thanks.

[GAMEOVER]

I'll be looking out for it too...:D
Disc looks cool!!!

[waterbug1999]

man, i could use that.

[TAQuickness]

Thanks for putting this together Greg. Looks like Summit is taking orders but not shipping until 8/14. Anychance you could provide a preview while we wait?

[GAMEOVER]

Demo Link:http://www.buckshaw.com/greg/CSI_BGM.wmv

[exploder]

It looks like a great tuning tool. I just wonder exactly how much of it will directly correlate with EFI live since most everything they showed in the video was Hptuners.

[eficalibrator]

The process is the same whether you're using HPT or EFIlive when tuning. The only difference should be the screens/labels you see in the different windows interfaces. At the end of each section, I show where to find the equivalent tables in the EFILive software. I just didn't go through setting up the custom PIDs/Tables in the EFILive logging tool, since I figure that's already been covered well enough in the help files and on this forum already. What's really important on the DVD is:

1) The PROCESS for properly tuning injectors, MAF, and VE in open loop, and...
2) The EFILive specific injector values that are formatted for direct entry into your software for a bunch of popular applications.

I'll be shipping this week. I have the data discs done for the first batch and DVDs are burning tonight.

[gmh308]

After lots and lots of prodding, I finally caved and made a training DVD for the GM crew. This DVD walks through the fundamentals of tuning using aftermarket tools on the dyno with live demos for both MAF and VE tuning. I have also included a section on proper fuel injector characterization, along with a data disc with reference data for many popular injectors to take the guesswork out of getting those SD60's (or 80's, or FRPP 30's, or green tops, or....) to work right all the time. Most of the DVD was shot when all I had was brandX GM tools, but I added supplements to each section showing exactly what the corresponding tables look like in EFILive, so no need to worry about the confusion there.

The DVD will be sold through Summit Racing as part number SME-DVD-1 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SME-DVD-1/). I'm planning to ship this week to Summit, so they'll be filling orders soon after. As an added bonus, I'm going to give anyone who buys the disc from Summit a 100% credit of the disc purchase price toward my advanced GM class within one year. You simply will not find better instructional material out there today and my aim is to deliver it in a clear, accurate, and useful manner. Many thanks to Paul and Ross for helping me get set up with their hardware recently. You'll be seeing more and more EFILive in my advanced classes as we move forward.

Great news! :) Now we just need to figure how to get you downunder to run some classes so we can get our credit :).

Are you ok travelling economy class? :grin:

Seriously!

[eficalibrator]

If you have enough people interested in a class down under, I'm game. Contact me offline and we can sort out the details.

[5.7ute]

If you have enough people interested in a class down under, I'm game. Contact me offline and we can sort out the details.

The only way to make it feasable is to hold it in the centre of Aus so everyone has to travel the same distance.:angel_innocent:
I reckon I could drum up a car to run the course with as well. Better make it in a couple of weeks when my LS3 goes in. :rockon:

[exploder]

The process is the same whether you're using HPT or EFIlive when tuning. The only difference should be the screens/labels you see in the different windows interfaces. At the end of each section, I show where to find the equivalent tables in the EFILive software. I just didn't go through setting up the custom PIDs/Tables in the EFILive logging tool, since I figure that's already been covered well enough in the help files and on this forum already. What's really important on the DVD is:

1) The PROCESS for properly tuning injectors, MAF, and VE in open loop, and...
2) The EFILive specific injector values that are formatted for direct entry into your software for a bunch of popular applications.

I'll be shipping this week. I have the data discs done for the first batch and DVDs are burning tonight.

That completely answered my questions. I am sending you a PM...I want the cd now. I don't want to wait.

[mistermike]

Thanks, Greg. Nice to see you over here. You're in a great position to unify the GM tuning community around common knowledge, rather than the sectarian bickering over software that often obscures what we're really trying to learn. Perhaps you should collaberate with Ben Strader on a translation manual for tuning jargon. J/K. Best of luck with the new book and video.

[eficalibrator]

Perhaps you should collaberate with Ben Strader on a translation manual for tuning jargon. J/K. Best of luck with the new book and video.
I'm not sure I follow you here. What is missing with regards to "tuning jargon"? My new book will have a glossary of commonly used terms in it, but nothing that program specific like "RAF = running air flow" or "{B000x} = this specific tuning table/parameter in EFILive" since other manufacturers don't use anything like that and it would make for a very narrow scope that doesn't sell many books. It does however define RBT, LBT, Lambda, DFCO, phi, and other commonalities used in both standalones and OE controllers.

[Chevy366]

Dude , I think Summit messed up on the price because it says $249.95 , shouldn't it be $24.95 ?
Does the DVD come with a cable and controller as well ?
How many licenses ?

[mistermike]

I'm not sure I follow you here. What is missing with regards to "tuning jargon"? My new book will have a glossary of commonly used terms in it, but nothing that program specific like "RAF = running air flow" or "{B000x} = this specific tuning table/parameter in EFILive" since other manufacturers don't use anything like that and it would make for a very narrow scope that doesn't sell many books. It does however define RBT, LBT, Lambda, DFCO, phi, and other commonalities used in both standalones and OE controllers.

I was only half serious in making that suggestion. While there are few significant differences in available parameters between HPT and EFI Live, or standalone controllers for that matter, the jargon in the HPT AND EFI Live communities seems to have evolved independently, and sometimes results in confusion for those not intimately familiar with the "other" tuning package, whichever one that may be.

[Aloicious]

right on Greg, I read your advanced tuning book and its a great rescource. I'd love to see what your DVD contains.

when you say that you have info on injectors, does that include tables such as injector voltage offsets (i.e. Dead times)? and unless I'm mistaken, ford and gm use different ways of displaying and calculating the voltage deadtimes so simply using ford data in the gm tables wouldn't work correctly, do you go over differences like this in your DVD for people who are looking to use ford or other non-gm brand injectors?

great to have you on the forum man.

[eficalibrator]

when you say that you have info on injectors, does that include tables such as injector voltage offsets (i.e. Dead times)? and unless I'm mistaken, ford and gm use different ways of displaying and calculating the voltage deadtimes so simply using ford data in the gm tables wouldn't work correctly, do you go over differences like this in your DVD for people who are looking to use ford or other non-gm brand injectors?
I'm intimately aware of the differences in injector characterization methods between Ford and GM. The DVD includes a CDROM data disc with MSExcel format files that have the properly converted data for use of the FRPP injectors in a late model GM vehicle. The data includes offset vs voltage (and MAP) tables, short pulse adjust values, as well as corrected flow rates for the GM 4bar working pressure.

This is a big part of the "behind the scenes" engineering that had to go into place before releasing the DVD. It's also big portion of why the cost is $250 (Summit has it right). Keep in mind that you're also buying professional training here not just some backyard mechanic's how-to guide. I spent a LOT of time putting this knowledge together and have previously only shared it with those who signed up for one of my classes that start out at twice the price. This disc delivers real knowledge that is only currently available from much more expensive sources such as live classes or real world experience as a calibrator on an OEM or high-end aftermarket company. This disc set is far cheaper than your first damaged engine and will go a long way toward making your life easier as a tuner. :cheers:

Mike, I agree on the parallel paths of "jargon". I too get confused when people on either forum start abbreviating too much or calling out table numbers instead of functional names. When I post, you'll see that I typically call a table or parameter by its functional name (e.g.: "VE table" or "idle airflow table") rather than a precise name or "B" number because these are subject to change from year to year or program to program. My intent is to make material and posts that many people can learn from by using common terminology whenever possible.

[mistermike]

Greg, I have to back you up on the value of knowledge. I've been a technical trainer for the telecommunications industry as well as a salesman, and I can tell you that the two most valuable commodities you can give a client are knowledge and time.

There is an old story about a large chemical plant that was having an issue, so they called in a consultant. After spending a couple of hours walking around, he pointed to a pipe and said they needed a 8 inch check valve on that line. After completing the work, the consultant presented them with a bill for $20,000. The buyer balked at the price and demanded that the bill be itemized. He did so as follows:

1 Eight inch check valve w/ installation $600
Knowing where to put the check valve $19,400

[eficalibrator]

Just a quick update fellas...

The first shipment of DVDs should have arrived at Summit TODAY. Those of you who pre-ordered should see them very soon. Everyone else waiting for them to be listed as "in stock" should see that within the next day or so as Summit updates their system.

[GAMEOVER]

Cool...

[scdyne]

...the scenes" engineering that had to go into place before releasing the DVD. It's also big portion of why the cost is $250 (Summit has it right). Keep in mind that you're also buying professional training here not just some backyard mechanic's how-to guide. I spent a LOT of time putting this knowledge together and have previously only shared it with those who signed up for one of my classes that start out at twice the price. This disc delivers real knowledge that is only currently available from much more expensive sources such as live classes or real world experience as a calibrator on an OEM or high-end aftermarket company. This disc set is far cheaper than your first damaged engine and will go a long way toward making your life easier as a tuner. :cheers:...

IMO: You don't have to spend 1 second justifying that price. To be honest I think it would sell just as many copies if it was even $149 more.
When I saw the post and clicked to the Summit link I didn't even blink at the price.
Package the DVD with HPT or EFILive and you are talking about a grand slam tuner deal worth every penny.
In comparison I think at work we just spent about 2 times that on an online Matlab training class that was literally nothing more than a hosted video.

[Bruce Melton]

For, for at least GM ( I am not up to speed on others, but he probably is), Greg is the ultimate teacher. No off the wall concepts, just solid science, explained in practical medthodology. If you tune modified engines you need to really understand the science so you understand how the modifcations relate to and influence the tuning process. The book and cources are unversally aclaimed so the DVD should be the ultimate resource for both HPT and EFIlive.

I sell 100mm MAF components there are damn few folks who really can or will, take the time to properly calibrate a MAF. Same for SD, if you skip or flub a step, it is hopelssly wrong..
There is a lot at stake in tuning, more than we can afford to overlook.

I hope we can all get back to the science of tuning when there is a universal reference source like Greg's DVD.

IMO,
Bruce

[eficalibrator]

Package the DVD with HPT or EFILive and you are talking about a grand slam tuner deal worth every penny.
If I'm not mistaken, Summit already sells EFILive so it would be pretty easy to get everything with a single phone call and world class service from a trusted distributor.

Thank you for the kind words, Bruce. Hopefully, training people on the science behind tuning is a big part of what makes it easier to use products like your new MAF successfully.

Good parts + good tuning practices = great performance! :rockon:

[joecar]

...
Good parts + good tuning practices = great performance! :rockon:Nicely summarized...:rockon::cheers:

[exploder]

I checked my status on Summit today and it showed that my disk shipped today....Hopefully I will get it early next week.

[98 tigershark]

That is a great idea. I have dial up so let me know when it is available so I can go somewhere and down load it.
Good luck with that and I again think that could really help allot.
98 tigershark


The process is the same whether you're using HPT or EFIlive when tuning. The only difference should be the screens/labels you see in the different windows interfaces. At the end of each section, I show where to find the equivalent tables in the EFILive software. I just didn't go through setting up the custom PIDs/Tables in the EFILive logging tool, since I figure that's already been covered well enough in the help files and on this forum already. What's really important on the DVD is:

1) The PROCESS for properly tuning injectors, MAF, and VE in open loop, and...
2) The EFILive specific injector values that are formatted for direct entry into your software for a bunch of popular applications.

I'll be shipping this week. I have the data discs done for the first batch and DVDs are burning tonight.

[98 tigershark]

Hey Greg,
That is good news. Have you looked at "How to tune and modify engine management systems" By Jeff Hartman. Some of these guys are the godfathers of tuning and still have knowledge about tuning that only there years of experience at a very high level can have.
It also has a very decent formula for computing IBPWS at peak torque, MBT and the basic s and advanced areas of spark curves and on and on. It does not show the use of one particular tuning tool but does get into the GM PCMs. It is the best single book I have found and I have read almost everything I can get my hands on. I am a torque guy and like to tune for such and timing does affect torque allot as you know. So I am looking forward to reading your courses and cant wait.
Good Luck and check into Jeff Hartman if you have time.
98 tigershark

[98 tigershark]

Hey Bruce,
98 tigershark here, That is quite a recommendation from someone who know what it really takes. I will most certainly look at it very hard and am looking forward to it.
Thanks Bruce,
98 tigershark


For, for at least GM ( I am not up to speed on others, but he probably is), Greg is the ultimate teacher. No off the wall concepts, just solid science, explained in practical medthodology. If you tune modified engines you need to really understand the science so you understand how the modifcations relate to and influence the tuning process. The book and cources are unversally aclaimed so the DVD should be the ultimate resource for both HPT and EFIlive.

I sell 100mm MAF components there are damn few folks who really can or will, take the time to properly calibrate a MAF. Same for SD, if you skip or flub a step, it is hopelssly wrong..
There is a lot at stake in tuning, more than we can afford to overlook.

I hope we can all get back to the science of tuning when there is a universal reference source like Greg's DVD.

IMO,
Bruce

[Ninety8C5]

Has anyone received their DVD yet and if so what do you think of it?

[exploder]

I got mine, I will sell it to you at a reduced price.

[mr.prick]

:funnypost:

[Ninety8C5]

I got mine, I will sell it to you at a reduced price.

Why?

[exploder]

It was almost solely based on HPtuners with a few EFI smatterings here and there. I and almost everyone here tunes with AFR not LAMBDA (even though lambda may be better). It doesn't go over how to set up any PIDS in EFI at all. I can say that the injector spreadsheet is very nice though. I feel almost like I payed all the money for a set of IFR tables and voltage offsets. Thats just my opinon though. It always just seems like the Hp guys get all the love and we don't have any clear, concise tutorial setup for us.

[eficalibrator]

You really should get into the habit of working with Lambda instead of AFR. Almost everywhere in the U.S. has some blend of ethanol in the fuel, which skews the stoich point. You can account for this in the calibration data, but your wideband will still show "14.6" at stoich when you really want ~14.2ish, depending on the blend. Working in units of lambda eliminates this confusion. I know you've had the "BEN factor" crutch for some time, but now it would benefit you to think a little further ahead and use more precise units that account for the change in chemistry.

Then again, if you're still tooning with a $200 toy wideband, I'm not sure it matters. The only sub $1,000 wideband I've seen that's remotely reliable is the NGK AFX. Lots of the other "consumer" grade widebands lose accuracy as temps go up and mixtures get richer. (Usually right when you need them the most for safety/performance tuning) I know that not everyone is going to use a $3k wideband, but I'm trying to teach techniques that promote minimize the errors with whatever equipment you have. Units of lambda are a significant step in this direction.

The point of the DVD is to lay out a clear process for tuning. This process is the same for me whether I'm using EFILive, HPT, SCT, Sniper, Diablosport, Hondata, Crome, F.A.S.T., DFI, BigStuff3, etc., get my point? People get into trouble when they cut corners on the process and continue along "tooning" after collecting bad data. I am ASSuming that you already know how to configure the datalogger for EFILive to collect the necessary information during a test.

Since Paul and Ross will be changing the config setup for the datalogger in the very near future, it made no sense to create a remedial (for most people) setup guide that would obsolete in the very near future. My experience has been that most of the EFILive users are a little further ahead in their learning curves than the typical HPT user, so adapting the info shown should not be too difficult once I've shown you the exact table effected.

[98 tigershark]

Hello Greg,

I have tried to read everything I can get my hands on for tuning. Jeff Hartman's Book "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management systems"
is only $9.99 at most all book stores and covers every aspect of tuning.
Have you read that book? It addresses what you have said above.
It is also to complicated for beginners that use any tuning system with out a very basic knowlegde of the ABC,s of tuning with one tuning product and I was hoping you would highlight EFILive in a DVD package. The new data logger for EFIlive is not going to make any tuning applications obsolete. Maybe you should put out a CD for each type of tuning Product. That cant be that hard for someone with your knowledge and would always hit the target market. Many of us know what is the right AFR measurement to use for our own application. So I guess I am confused as I thought you were making a beginners guide DVD to tuning.
I cannot suggest strongly enough to have the ABC's first for each tuning tool as there are not that many. And then proceed to more advanced tuning again with it done towards each tuning application tool on a separate DVD as I would feel like I could have bought Jeff Hartman' Book if that is how you are marketing your DVD. You are very talented but you need to identify your markets and have a product for each one( I for one would not be interested in seeing anything on HP tuners as I see them as my tuning competition.)
I would never chalange you on any tuning application as you are clearly an expert. But I think your marketing is off from what I have heard. I see it all the time were some very bright individual has a product that missed his nitch. Tuning and marketing are very different. Think about that as I would not try to tell a tuning expert how to tune and I would not expect a tuning expert to tell me how to market. Good luck and I wish you well as we do need your expertise in the tuning family.
Regards,
98 tigershark

[Aloicious]

You really should get into the habit of working with Lambda instead of AFR. Almost everywhere in the U.S. has some blend of ethanol in the fuel, which skews the stoich point. You can account for this in the calibration data, but your wideband will still show "14.6" at stoich when you really want ~14.2ish, depending on the blend. Working in units of lambda eliminates this confusion. I know you've had the "BEN factor" crutch for some time, but now it would benefit you to think a little further ahead and use more precise units that account for the change in chemistry.

Then again, if you're still tooning with a $200 toy wideband, I'm not sure it matters. The only sub $1,000 wideband I've seen that's remotely reliable is the NGK AFX. Lots of the other "consumer" grade widebands lose accuracy as temps go up and mixtures get richer. (Usually right when you need them the most for safety/performance tuning) I know that not everyone is going to use a $3k wideband, but I'm trying to teach techniques that promote minimize the errors with whatever equipment you have. Units of lambda are a significant step in this direction.

The point of the DVD is to lay out a clear process for tuning. This process is the same for me whether I'm using EFILive, HPT, SCT, Sniper, Diablosport, Hondata, Crome, F.A.S.T., DFI, BigStuff3, etc., get my point? People get into trouble when they cut corners on the process and continue along "tooning" after collecting bad data. I am ASSuming that you already know how to configure the datalogger for EFILive to collect the necessary information during a test.

Since Paul and Ross will be changing the config setup for the datalogger in the very near future, it made no sense to create a remedial (for most people) setup guide that would obsolete in the very near future. My experience has been that most of the EFILive users are a little further ahead in their learning curves than the typical HPT user, so adapting the info shown should not be too difficult once I've shown you the exact table effected.

I totally agree about not using AFR in your tuning. I started out that way and ended up switching after a while. it took some getting used to but is well worth it. I don't typically use Lambda, but rather EQ Ratio (which is the inverse of Lambda for those who aren't familiar with these terms) and it has helped out alot for the exact reasons that greg mentioned.

around here I notice alot of us use EQ ratio more than Lambda, though both are equally good, just don't get them mixed up :shock:, so stick with one or the other would be my advise to anyone out there. here is some good info on how to interconvert between Lambda, AFR, and EQ ratios:

To convert EQ Ratio to AFR, use: AFR = {stoich}/EQ

To convert Lambda to AFR, use: AFR = Labmda/{stoich}

To convert AFR to EQ Ratio, use: EQ Ratio = {stoich}/AFR

To convert Lambda to EQ Ratio, use: EQ Ratio = 1/Lambda

To convert EQ Ratio to Lambda, use: Lambda = 1/EQ Ratio

[mr.prick]

^
:confused:
From all I've heard the PCM uses EQ, at least for all of us LS1 users,
which is the inverse of whatever Lambda is. ({B3601} 14.63?)
What difference does it make if you want "~14.2ish" when B3601 is
set to "14.6ish"?
Most of us are not going to change the OS and add the sensor for flex fuel
so why "get used to Lambda"?

And what is 1.00 Lambda?
I have seen it "advertised" anywhere from 14.6 to 14.7
At least with EQ you can be sure of what 1.00 is because you can set it.

And as for "tooning with a $200 toy wideband",
you tout a <$300 WBO2 :hihi: that came in dead last
in the only WBO2 test I have seen and it has no serial option. :bad:
I am supposed to use analog to get 100% accurate WBO2 readings from a controller that ranked last in test that used calibrated gas? :confused:

I'm not trying to act like I know more than everyone else but I think this all should be put into context,
and I am in no way defending Innovate. :blahblah:

Someone needs to call Consumer Reports and see if a real test can be done to settle the WBO2 question.

[Aloicious]

^
:confused:
From all I've heard the PCM uses EQ, at least for all of us LS1 users,
which is the inverse of whatever Lambda is. ({B3601} 14.63?)
What difference does it make if you want "~14.2ish" when B3601 is
set to "14.6ish"?
Most of us are not going to change the OS and add the sensor for flex fuel
so why "get used to Lambda"?

And what is 1.00 Lambda?
I have seen it "advertised" anywhere from 14.6 to 14.7
At least with EQ you can be sure of what 1.00 is because you can set it.


he's talking about Lambda UNITS, which are typically misunderstood with lambda sensors...i.e. lambda sensors (narrowbands) detect 14.68 AFR or an EQ of 1 using pure gasoline (meaning no ethanol or stoich modifying additives). alot of folks assume then that the term "lambda" = 14.68 AFR. but in actuality, lambda units are just a way of expressing how close a mixture is to its stoichiometric coefficient.

so for example, using gasoline with stoich of 14.68:1
EQ = 1.00, Lamda = 1.00, AFR = 14.68

5% rich:
EQ = 1.05, Lambda = .95, AFR = 13.946

20% rich:
EQ = 1.20, Lambda = .80, AFR = 11.744

10% Lean:
EQ = .90, Lambda = 1.10, AFR = 16.148

15% lean
EQ = .85, Lambda =1.15, AFR = 16.882

(see what I mean about choosing EQ vs Lambda and sticking with it, they're total opposites, so its easy to get confused if you're constantly switching back and forth.)

and if the mixture was altered so that stoich was 9.0:1 like with pure ethanol, a EQ ratio of 1.00 would still equal a Lambda of 1.00, which in this case, would equal an AFR of 9.0

which is why its best to use unit like EQ or Lambda for commanding fuel, because they are a percentage factor of B3601, and not an absolute number. like if your commanded fuel table was in EQ, and you commanded 1.05 in a specific cell, it would give you 5% rich mixture, compared to whatever was in B3601, regardless of what that number may be, now if you ran solely on AFR, then if you ever changed B3601, you'd need to change all your commanded fuel tables, actually all your fuel tables that reference AFR because the stoichiometric point of the fuel has been changed. this kind of stuff is important where I live since MOST gas stations still run 0% ethanol, but every once in a while you'll find a 10% or so mix being sold, so with using EQ ratios, I can just change B3601 to the correct stoich point of the fuel mix I am running and all my fueling tables are in line since I use a percentage factor, EQ ratio.

sorry if this is fairly elementry Mr. Prick, I know you're a smart guy, I'm just putting this out there for anyone's benefit.

[98 tigershark]

mr.prick is right. GM uses EQ and translates it to 14.7. So what about Lambda?
The thing is as I mentioned above. What is the DVD and Greg's target market.
It certainly is not EFILive users as I see it. He is clearly a smart guy. He has no branding identification with his product. That does not mean EFI or HP or Hon-data etc.. (Gregs Basic with EFILive and Gregs basics with HPTuners or hondata with seperate DVDs). Do you get the point? What are trying to sell and to who. It is very confusing. I have found that Most Tuners are very loyal to there Tuning tool as I am with EFILive and it would bother me to see most everything done in HP tuners or even the import tuner scene as that is the market that uses Lambda. Greg, you are a very knowledgeable guy, but spend some time identifying your target market and how to approach it with a product that is brand-able as a small sample above. You did the tuning research but also need to do have a niche specific product that has a brand. Your reputation is somewhat of a brand for example but not exactly. Again I thought this was for beginners, am I wrong. If that is the market did it miss the target?
Greg, EQ, Lambda, AFR is a preference so demonstrate to all not just what you prefer. Marketing! Greg what you are trying is needed but is it the beginner market you are trying to hit? Then what is their demographics and does your product hit that market profitably with an acceptable absorption rate? Greg, I am not picking on you, honestly trying to help.
I wish you well.
Regards,
98 tigershark

[WeathermanShawn]

Give me a book and I will read it cover to cover a half-dozen times to make sure I learn it.

In all honesty I do see see a market for tuning knowledge, but this recession has made a lot of purchases more of an luxury now. If excess dollars start flowing in again, signing up for a combination dyno and tuning workshop would be something of interest to me.

Not knocking the value of any knowledge. Just curious how this recession has hit this particular hobby/business.

[Aloicious]

mr.prick is right. GM uses EQ and translates it to 14.7. So what about Lambda?


GM does use EQ, but EQ isn't translated to 14.7, thats a common misconception. EQ is just a scale, its just a way to say how close something is to stoichiometric. for pure gasoline an EQ of 1.00 is 14.7:1, but with another fuel, it may not be. an EQ of 1.00 using pure ethanol is 9.0:1, using Diesel its 14.6:1, Hydrogen is 34:1, Methanol is 6.4:1....

I agree with you on marketing to your key demographic, but I also feel the truely advanced tuner wants to understand everything, not just what is applicable to their vehicles. which is why its nice to understand things like Lambda units (which you CAN use in EFILive, you just need to change some settings to do so). however the ambitions of a minority of the consumers shouldn't change the need for good marketing, so I think your points are still very valid. after all, if I'm looking to buy a product to help me tune, I'd be looking for GM based, EFILive based, etc and thats what I'd buy first....would I like to read HPT, ford, FAST, etc. stuff? sure I would, but is it worth my money? thats where the question mark is. and I think thats where you've got a good point.

[Chevy366]

Not to add to much salt to the wound , but @ $249 that is a little much for a basic tuning DVD , $24.95 and it would be more in line with books and perhaps sell 1000s more copies . There are basic tuning guides on the Internet for free .
One of the first things to do in EFILive is change from Lambda to EQ so you can AutoVE correctly .
EQ , AFR and Lambda are all easy to learn , once the general concept is explained , but sounds like EQ is measurement of choice .

[98 tigershark]

Hello WeathermanShawn,

I do agree with you. The market today is a value oriented market so already you have identified a market that is worthy. The next question is how to profitably approach that market in a value oriented maner. This is a very profitable market to get a start in or expand as the market is there but it takes more work than the product itself quite often.
You made a very good point so thank you weathermanShawn.
Regards,
98 tigershark



Yea, I am kinda of an old-school type learner. Give me a book and I will read it cover to cover a half-dozen times to make sure I learn it.

In all honesty I do see see a market for tuning knowledge, but this recession has made a lot of purchases more of an luxury now. If excess dollars start flowing in again, signing up for a combination dyno and tuning workshop would be something of interest to me.

Again, not knocking the value of any knowledge. Just curious how this recession has hit this particular hobby/business.

..WeathermanShawn..

[98 tigershark]

We need a beer summit I think! Lets have a beer summit to think about the beer summit!
98 tigershark

Not to add to much salt to the wound , but @ $249 that is a little much for a basic tuning DVD , $24.95 and it would be more in line with books and perhaps sell 1000s more copies . There are basic tuning guides on the Internet for free .
One of the first things to do in EFILive is change from Lambda to EQ so you can AutoVE correctly .
EQ , AFR and Lambda are all easy to learn , once the general concept is explained , but sounds like EQ is measurement of choice .

[98 tigershark]

We need a beer summit I think! Lets have a beer summit to think about the beer summit!:cheers::cheers:
98 tigershark

Not to add to much salt to the wound , but @ $249 that is a little much for a basic tuning DVD , $24.95 and it would be more in line with books and perhaps sell 1000s more copies . There are basic tuning guides on the Internet for free .
One of the first things to do in EFILive is change from Lambda to EQ so you can AutoVE correctly .
EQ , AFR and Lambda are all easy to learn , once the general concept is explained , but sounds like EQ is measurement of choice .

[2004gmc]

sweet dvd but to rich for me at the moment i hope they come down in price in the future is there a book that would be cheaper?

[eficalibrator]

Hello Greg,

I have tried to read everything I can get my hands on for tuning. Jeff Hartman's Book "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management systems"
is only $9.99 at most all book stores and covers every aspect of tuning.
Have you read that book? It addresses what you have said above.
Yes, I have a copy of Jeff's book and read it completely before publishing my first book (SA135, Engine Management: Advanced Tuning). I structured my book to fill in some of the gaps on late model systems that Jeff's book hadn't addressed directly, along with spelling out the general tuning procedure that I use. I didn't list the procedure as "Step 1: do this, Step 2: do this," but reading through the chapters in order along with seeing the examples in the appedices should make this fairly clear. People tend to miss this when they either skim through it or skip around.

I cannot suggest strongly enough to have the ABC's first for each tuning tool as there are not that many.
The ABC's are covered in the (cheaper) books. My second book coming out this fall focuses much more on the speed density stuff, but it also includes a glossary of common tuning terms. To me, the basic terms and fundamental procedures are the same whether I'm using EFILive, HPT, SCT, FAST, DFI, MegaSquirt, or whatever. The individual software systems usually do a decent job of telling you where to find these general tables within the program. I see it as my job to highlight WHEN and WHY it's a good time to touch one table instead of another.

^
:confused:
From all I've heard the PCM uses EQ, at least for all of us LS1 users,
which is the inverse of whatever Lambda is. ({B3601} 14.63?)...
And what is 1.00 Lambda?
I have seen it "advertised" anywhere from 14.6 to 14.7
At least with EQ you can be sure of what 1.00 is because you can set it.
Lambda is just 1/(EQratio). Both equal 1.000 at a stoichiometric balance. Lambda is just excess air ratio where EQR is excess fuel ratio. The GM pcm's natural units are EQR, so I tune the actual commanded ratios in those units, but I use Lambda units when doing calculations to the MAF or VE tables because lambda represents the exact factor I need to multiply by to get back to stoichiometry when adjusting airflow models. I'm lazy and prefer to do less math.


And as for "tooning with a $200 toy wideband",
you tout a <$300 WBO2 :hihi: that came in dead last
in the only WBO2 test I have seen and it has no serial option. :bad:
I am supposed to use analog to get 100% accurate WBO2 readings from a controller that ranked last in test that used calibrated gas? :confused:
1) That test was sponsored by the "winning" O2 sensor, coincidence? :bangin:
2) The "losing" sensor is actually manufactured by the same company (ECM) as the "reference" sensor, using the same control algorithm.
3) The test methods were anything but scientific. I can assure you that no OEM lab calibrates UEGOs by holding them in front of a stream of cal gas freely escaping the mother bottle.
4) Digitally transmitted crap signals are still worse than analog transmissions of quality signals. My OEM test vehicles use a 0-5v analog output from the wideband (also made by the same company as the "losing/reference" sensor) to my measurement stack and seem to work fine. I have a problem with their signal generation, not the transmission thereof.
5) My personal tuning wideband is an ECM LambdaPRO, using the same electronics as the losing/reference sensor, tied to my EFILive cable via analog 0-5v signal. I've never had trouble with floating grounds, bad data, or overheated sensors that fail once a week.


In all honesty I do see see a market for tuning knowledge, but this recession has made a lot of purchases more of an luxury now. If excess dollars start flowing in again, signing up for a combination dyno and tuning workshop would be something of interest to me.
I've actually been doing live classes (http://www.calibratedsuccess.com/Basic.htm) for about 4 years now. All of these include a dyno and demo vehicle. I've had guys who use both EFILive and brandX GM software in my advanced class and everyone seems to come away learning a lot about how to use whatever software they own. Howard @ Redline Motorsports (http://www.redline-motorsports.net/) is probably one of my best students and he's a hardcore EFILive guy.

If it makes you feel any better, I give anyone who buys the $250 DVD a 100% credit of its price toward the advanced class fee, so you're not out a penny if you take the class. The DVD just gets the basics out of the way so we can focus on better stuff in the class like virtual VE tables, scaling injectors and airflow, ETC control, and other neat stuff in the limited time of a weekend class. Heck, I even sent FREE copies of the DVD to all of my previous Advanced GM class students.


Not to add to much salt to the wound , but @ $249 that is a little much for a basic tuning DVD , $24.95 and it would be more in line with books and perhaps sell 1000s more copies . There are basic tuning guides on the Internet for free...
"Free" internet advice is often worth the price. There's a LOT of bad info out there. The DVD is formal technical training, not an entertainment or movie experience. It's priced very competitively considering the current rate for such materials/training today. The last SAE course I took was $1600 for two days in a classroom and NO live demos of anything. See my previous note about crediting the DVD purchase price toward the Advanced GM class (http://www.calibratedsuccess.com/GM%20Advanced.htm) as well.

The whole marketing discussion could easily be its own thread. I'd be all to happy to sit down and talk about it with you guys at the PRI show if anyone makes it there. Just remember that my goal is not to flood the market with 1000's of DVDs or books just to claim high sales numbers. I'm more interested in helping individual tuners/shop owners develop good calibration practices that translate into great running cars and happy customers. I have a day job that pays my mortgage, so this is just something extra I do because I like staying plugged into the performance industry. I won't compromise my quality for quantity, but only have limited time to do all of this.

[GAMEOVER]

I'll definitely be looking out for an Advanced Class near me...:D

[mr.prick]

Lambda is just 1/(EQratio). Both equal 1.000 at a stoichiometric balance. Lambda is just excess air ratio where EQR is excess fuel ratio. The GM pcm's natural units are EQR, so I tune the actual commanded ratios in those units, but I use Lambda units when doing calculations to the MAF or VE tables because lambda represents the exact factor I need to multiply by to get back to stoichiometry when adjusting airflow models. I'm lazy and prefer to do less math.

Lamda = BEN when stoich is commanded?
If so it would seem like you are saying that the common method/multiplier sucks even tho the outcome would be the same.

FYI EFILive can do the math for you free of charge.



1) That test was sponsored by the "winning" O2 sensor, coincidence?
I seemed to have missed that in the article,
looks like the magazine has no credibility. :shock:


2) The "losing" sensor is actually manufactured by the same company (ECM) as the "reference" sensor, using the same control algorithm.
They should have used the losing sensor for reference. :grin:


3) The test methods were anything but scientific. I can assure you that no OEM lab calibrates UEGOs by holding them in front of a stream of cal gas freely escaping the mother bottle.
Is that actually how they did it or is that just a picture? :confused:


4) Digitally transmitted crap signals are still worse than analog transmissions of quality signals. My OEM test vehicles use a 0-5v analog output from the wideband (also made by the same company as the "losing/reference" sensor) to my measurement stack and seem to work fine. I have a problem with their signal generation, not the transmission thereof.
Looks like digital TV (HD) and cable are a scam and just a gimmick for all
manufacturers of any digital/serial devices. :secret:


5) My personal tuning wideband is an ECM LambdaPRO, using the same electronics as the losing/reference sensor, tied to my EFILive cable via analog 0-5v signal. I've never had trouble with floating grounds, bad data, or overheated sensors that fail once a week.
I'm not trying to play "my WBO2 is better than your WBO2" but
those are little pricey for most people,
although I would like to replace my sensors less.
Too bad all the other WBO2 controllers are worthless,
otherwise everyone that owns one could trade them in for something that works properly. :sly:
These PCM can't tune bank to bank let alone cylinder to cylinder,
for next to perfect fueling you will need an emulator and a $3000 WBO2.
It would still be nice to get Consumer Reports to do a test.

:Nothing_funny_to_ad

[5.7ute]

Looks like digital TV (HD) and cable are a scam and just a gimmick for all
manufacturers of any digital/serial devices. :secret:



What Greg is saying is that it doesnt matter how the data is transferred to the tunetool, digital or analog. If the data is crap, its crap.
FWIW my innovate LM-1 correlates with the high end wideband the local dyno shop uses. Makes it accurate enough for me.:rockon:

[eficalibrator]

Lamda = BEN when stoich is commanded?
If so it would seem like you are saying that the common method/multiplier sucks even tho the outcome would be the same.
You run into trouble when the fuel's stoich point is not 14.6:1. e10 is about 14.13:1, which means that this same "14.13" should show up as the PCM's commanded actual ratio when targeting stoich. However, many cheaper widebands ALWAYS show "14.6" at Lambda=1.00 (stoich) because they think they're doing you a favor by translating to gasoline units. Dividing 14.6/14.13 will NOT give you 1.00, as done with the BEN factor and can lead to errors when tuning. As you mention, it costs nothing to just use units of Lambda or EQratio to avoid this in the first place when tuning with ethanol blends like the vast majority of the country actually has.


Is that actually how they did it or is that just a picture? :confused:
That is my understanding. Nowhere did they show the proper calibration apparatus, so that leaves me questioning a LOT of their results.


Looks like digital TV (HD) and cable are a scam and just a gimmick for all
manufacturers of any digital/serial devices. :secret:
It would be more like using you 52" HD plasma to watch public access shows filmed with a pawn store clearance rack camera. I'd still rather watch a BluRay on a 35" LCD if you catch my drift.


I'm not trying to play "my WBO2 is better than your WBO2" but
those are little pricey for most people,
although I would like to replace my sensors less.
Too bad all the other WBO2 controllers are worthless,
otherwise everyone that owns one could trade them in for something that works properly.
I don't sell widebands, but I'm happy to share my experiences. If you're an enthusiast on a tight budget, it's tough to beat the NGK AFX. Professional shops/tuners that tune cars for a living can easily justify ~$1500 for an AFM1000 box for tuning a large number of cars with industry standard accuracy.

[98 tigershark]

Hello Greg, or mr.prick or anyone,

I have a question that I have used maybe incorrectly in tuning. whether gas or ethanol ( 100% gas 92 %oct, 90% gas with ethanol that = 92 oct, or 92 octane with an E85 type of fuel (E85 is 85% octane right?). Is not the true purpose that the amount of octane in the fuel delivered is the issue with the actual amount of air calculated correctly that is ingested to the motor whether forced or N/A is what gives the actual AFR whether AFR(14.63), EQ, Lambda. 88 octane or 92 octane require the same adjustments you are referring to as the type of fuel is not the real issue rather than octane and the newer GM operating system are actual octane adjustments and not really fuel types even though it appears to be the fuel.
If your fuel is truly 92 octane and EQ/Lambda or AFR is obtained from a wide band does it really mater what adjustments you are making for the type of fuel as long as the octane is correct as to the amount of fuel vs air given you are measuring the ratio of the correct octane fuel to air with all 3?
If not please explain as I would appreciate it as this could make me off by allot in the event I am wrong.
98 tigerhsark
PS this is clearly an example of using good fuels not 86 octane gas as the flash point is to far off. (And AFR to EQ or AFR to Lambda do not equate as it states in the EFILive tutorials) We are also not talking consumption just AFR,EQ,Lambda.
93 octane with the right amount of air = 14.63 AFR=1EQ=1 lambda, right or wrong and why, please?

[gmh308]

Hello Greg, or mr.prick or anyone,

I have a question that I have used maybe incorrectly in tuning. whether gas or ethanol ( 100% gas 92 %oct, 90% gas with ethanol that = 92 oct, or 92 octane with an E85 type of fuel (E85 is 85% octane right?). Is not the true purpose that the amount of octane in the fuel delivered is the issue with the actual amount of air calculated correctly that is ingested to the motor whether forced or N/A is what gives the actual AFR whether AFR(14.63), EQ, Lambda. 88 octane or 92 octane require the same adjustments you are referring to as the type of fuel is not the real issue rather than octane and the newer GM operating system are actual octane adjustments and not really fuel types even though it appears to be the fuel.
If your fuel is truly 92 octane and EQ/Lambda or AFR is obtained from a wide band does it really mater what adjustments you are making for the type of fuel as long as the octane is correct as to the amount of fuel vs air given you are measuring the ratio of the correct octane fuel to air with all 3?
If not please explain as I would appreciate it as this could make me off by allot in the event I am wrong.
98 tigerhsark
PS this is clearly an example of using good fuels not 86 octane gas as the flash point is to far off. (And AFR to EQ or AFR to Lambda do not equate as it states in the EFILive tutorials) We are also not talking consumption just AFR,EQ,Lambda.
93 octane with the right amount of air = 14.63 AFR=1EQ=1 lambda, right or wrong and why, please?

Hi 98TS,

Just to home in on some terms and what they mean, without getting into too much tech......:), as my memory on this is rusty :hihi:. Some of this will double up, but lets try and get the Octane term in the right space.

"Octane" rating is a measurement of the anti knock quality of a fuel. There are various Octane measurements: Research Octane Number - RON, Motor Octane Number MON. Generally pump gas (in the US at least) is (RON+MON)/2.

Octane is not referred to as a %, it is a relative number to the knock resistance reference fuel iso-Octane. (see Wiki).

Google and ye shall find all the info you need on this.

Lead was once added to fuel to increase the Octane rating. Not good for us humans or the environment.

More compression (compression ratio) generally needs higher octane fuel to prevent knock.

Knock occurs when the mixture ignites at the wrong time or too quickly. (there are various causes). Often also called pinking, pinging, pre-ignition etc.

More timing advance may create more knock tendency. Reducing timing, the opposite.

E0 is 100% Gasoline.
E85 is 85% Ethanol, 15% Gasoline.
E10 is 10% Ethanol, 90% Gasoline.

Generally the Octane rating of E85 is around 105-106, depending on the measurement method. Whereas premium is 93, and on down from there.

(Different countries use different measurements (?).

Gasoline (Petrol) and Ethanol require a certain proportion of air to burn correctly. (or at least chemically correct. Chemists call this the stoichiometric mixture.)

Gasoline is generally around 14.7:1. Air to Fuel.

E85 is around 8.8:1. Pure Ethanol lower again. Methanol is down in the 6.5:1 area. Nitromethane around 4.5:1.

(Around 45% more liquid is required when running E85, to achieve stoichiometric, compared to gas, so your gas mileage will plummet. :shock:)

E10 is a around 14:1 or so as Greg mentions.

At these various stoichiometric values, lambda = 1 for each. It is independant of fuel type. Hence it's use.

Regardless of what is in your tank, running closed loop, lambda = 1, and the ECM will adjust injector flow to achieve this (well, within its specs. Generally a DTC will be raised if it needs to add 25% more, or flow 20% less, give or take, depends on ECM calibration.)

The ECM does not know anything about Octane. Except it will pull timing if it hears knock.

Pump fuel actual octane rating will vary during the year, across the seasons.

This is due to the mix being changed (additives?) to ensure in the cold of winter, the fuel will still vaporise and permit relatively easy starting. And likewise in the heat of summer, so it does not boil so easily.

The AFR will vary slightly too. Lambda always the same for stoich.

Think in Lambda as Greg recommends. Fuel AFR's vary too much these days to try and target AFR's.

Now with some context set, what was the question again? :grin:

[98 tigershark]

Thanks gm308,

Thank answers most all of my questions. The main reason I needed clarification is i am considering running E85 exclusively and I really need to upgrade my fuel pump, regulator and Injectors anyway and was wondering if the higher octane and the much lower lambda needs more fuel volume and does the walbro 650+hp at 255 LpH get it done with the E85. Right now my pump is wearing down and needs to replace very soon and I would like to have room for dreaming of a need for allot more flow in the future as the wife lets me.
I am Nat asp and like the supercharger that MTI uses and maybe at some time when I win the lottory I can upgrade my 625hp L/92 427 to around 850hp as that has always been my goal. I plan for around a year until I have enough facts to get the setup right. SO thank you and If you have a pretty affordable solution to reach that fuel level that would be great. I have received some pretty wild ideas so far. I do not want a dual pump system.
That is the real issue that was behind the post about octane and E85 ETC(Lamda is fine with me but I do prefer EQ).
Thanks again,
98 tigershark
Thor
I would like a bigger clean pump system that integrate with the stock 98 dual line system with an adjustable regulator and bigger injectors and maybe a boost a pump. But for right now a good fuel pump and regulator that can handle future goals affordably would be great.

[RWTD]

"LOL"ing at the prick (;)) who thinks that the Innovate Widebands are "the best" based on an article that they had biasely written after giving tons of advertising dollars to that magazine.

The NGK AFX is the ONLY budget wideband that is deadly accurate. ALL other budget widebands = JUNK = $|_|><Ω®! (that's "SUXOR" in leet speak, FYI)!

[GAMEOVER]

"LOL"ing at Mr. Prick who thinks that the Innovate Widebands are "the best" based on an article that they had biasely written after giving tons of advertising dollars to that magazine.

The NGK AFX is the ONLY budget wideband that is deadly accurate. ALL other budget widebands = JUNK = 5UX04!

Where are they available?

[98 tigershark]

If thats even worth talking or arguing about seriously, I am going to go back to a Carburetor and sell all the junk that I have spent thousands on and then I will send the bill to innovate for damaging my motor with a known piece of junk. Not!!!!! This is ridiculous and we need a beer summit.
LOng live PLX , innovative and all of the peice of crap sensors all of us tuners have used for years.
Frankly I tried to be polite and asked not to have my equipment insulted and if this is how to teach people by calling their tuning equipment junk? I hate know it alls that insult my stuff!!!
Ticked off
98 tigershark

[RWTD]

If thats even worth talking or arguing about seriously, I am going to go back to a Carburetor and sell all the junk that I have spent thousands on and then I will send the bill to innovate for damaging my motor with a known piece of junk. Not!!!!! This is ridiculous and we need a beer summit.
LOng live PLX , innovative and all of the peice of crap sensors all of us tuners have used for years.
Frankly I tried to be polite and asked not to have my equipment insulted and if this is how to teach people by calling their tuning equipment junk? I hate know it alls that insult my stuff!!!
Ticked off
98 tigershark

Well, if that's the "mentality" you want to exhibit, then I'll happily insult you.

EFIL and HPT both give us the ability to properly tune, but using subpar quality materials to do it with makes zero sense. I assume you'd rather the manufacturers to tune like you, 'eh? What's the old adage, anyone can teach a monkey...

[RWTD]

Where are they available?

The standard NGK AFX comes with a Bosch sensor. While this is a great tool, it is vastly superior when equipped with the NTK sensor. NGK ultimately will switch the sensor out to the NTK sensor once they run out of the Bosch sensor stock.

There's quite a few performance companies online that sell this system, and there is one that I know of that sells it with the NTK option. Possibly NGK's future kit with the NTK sensor won't be much of anymore money than their current kit is now (I know an NGK employee stated in email that it may be around $30 more, but that's also not official, so you can't put faith in it right now).

[98 tigershark]

My vette just ran a 9.84 sec 1/4 mile friday with my monkey tune and equipment. Buy the way when you train us monkeys you should give us Bananas when your not inhaling exhaust. FYI the guy who tuned the 605 hp super cobra for ford used a LC1. Not NKG!!! But I forgot you know everything.
98 tigershark


Well, if that's the "mentality" you want to exhibit, then I'll happily insult you.

EFIL and HPT both give us the ability to properly tune, but using subpar quality materials to do it with makes zero sense. I assume you'd rather the manufacturers to tune like you, 'eh? What's the old adage, anyone can teach a monkey...

[RWTD]

My vette just ran a 9.84 sec 1/4 mile friday with my monkey tune and equipment. Buy the way when you train us monkeys you should give us Bananas when your not inhaling exhaust. FYI the guy who tuned the 605 hp super cobra for ford used a LC1. Not NKG!!! But I forgot you know everything.
98 tigershark

I tune 500, 600, 700, 800 rwhp Fords ALL day long, but I don't screw my customer and give them a raped/fake/false tune by using POS equipment to do it with. I also don't rape their injector calibrations, their spark tables, their PE tables, nor their MAF and/or VE tables, like so many in the GM and Ford field do. I'm not exactly sure who you are referring to, but I can also assure you that Ford would NEVER release an EPA approved tune to the masses based on the LC1.

That's awesome your car ran what it did. Congrats (I'm being sincere here)! I have a few RX-7 customers that have converted over to LSx based engines. They are SICK vehicles! I have a close friend that is about to drop his 402 out of his C5 into one. He was able to run a mid-10 in his C5, so with 500# less weight it should be NASTY like yours!

[waterbug1999]

I tune 500, 600, 700, 800 rwhp Fords ALL day long, but I don't screw my customer and give them a raped/fake/false tune by using POS equipment to do it with. I also don't rape their injector calibrations, their spark tables, their PE tables, nor their MAF and/or VE tables, like so many in the GM and Ford field do. I'm not exactly sure who you are referring to, but I can also assure you that Ford would NEVER release an EPA approved tune to the masses based on the LC1.

That's awesome your car ran what it did. Congrats (I'm being sincere here)! I have a few RX-7 customers that have converted over to LSx based engines. They are SICK vehicles! I have a close friend that is about to drop his 402 out of his C5 into one. He was able to run a mid-10 in his C5, so with 500# less weight it should be NASTY like yours!

And how much do you charge?

[RWTD]

And how much do you charge?

Not a knock by any means, but I really don't think that's important to the scope of this thread, and I certainly didn't want this all to turn into a frenzy within Greg's thread. My point was merely to state facts concerning the widebands, and that using subpar equipment is akin to the same as raping your tune. Did I come across as a bit harsh in my post, possibly, but over the years this industry has given me a direct and to the point attitude. I want my customers to excel with their vehicles. Knowledge = Power!

So called "professional" tuners who use subpar equipment are honestly the laughing stock of the true pro tuning industry. Those who support them are just unfortunately clueless to the situation. When one can purchase equipment that is vastly superior, all for the same, possibly less, or not much more in price, yet they don't, they generally do it because either they are amateurs and clueless (again, not a knock, as we all have to start from somewhere), or they do it purely for aesthetics ("this gauge will look great in my car").

[waterbug1999]

I am running OLSD... I was looking into buying the CD, but as others have mentioned, its a bit too much.
If the CD would show me how to get rid of cold start surging, cold start 18.0 A/F, decel surging at a stop, etc I would buy it..
If I could get a quarantee that the CD would show me how to fix my problems I would buy it, otherwise ill just keep reading and trying to understand and use the trial and error adjustments. WOT, it runs like araped ape.

I pair 600 for a "performance shop" to tune my car 3 years, it ran like shit ever since and I dont think it was linked to crappy equipment.

[RWTD]

Do you have aftermarket injectors? If so, I'm well sure that some of your issues may be due to incorrect injector calibration. You'd be shocked to know how important it is to input ALL the correct injector calibration data. Everything starts here in the tuning process, then the the MAF and SD tuning. Otherwise the tune literally becomes a raping contest.

[waterbug1999]

Do you have aftermarket injectors? If so, I'm well sure that some of your issues may be due to incorrect injector calibration. You'd be shocked to know how important it is to input ALL the correct injector calibration data. Everything starts here in the tuning process, then the the MAF and SD tuning. Otherwise the tune literally becomes a raping contest.

36ers from FAST... I re-did the calcualtions according to the spread sheet.

Ive been playing around with the B5934, B5935 and B5936 as of yesterday for the cold start surge, it did help so I am going to keep adjusting it and see if it will eliminate it.. I see the B5935 and B5936 set too high so its just bouncing the timing from way low to way high until it smoothes out (after 8 to 10 secs).

[Bruce Melton]

I am running OLSD... I was looking into buying the CD, but as others have mentioned, its a bit too much.
If the CD would show me how to get rid of cold start surging, cold start 18.0 A/F, decel surging at a stop, etc I would buy it..
If I could get a quarantee that the CD would show me how to fix my problems I would buy it, otherwise ill just keep reading and trying to understand and use the trial and error adjustments. WOT, it runs like araped ape.

I pair 600 for a "performance shop" to tune my car 3 years, it ran like shit ever since and I dont think it was linked to crappy equipment.

No one can guaranty results based on what knowledge YOU apply. If you have EFIlLive you have the hardware/software capability to create good and bad tunes for most any late model GM, including yours. Proper tuning is very challenging , tedious and unforgiving. Like training for a marathon.

What Greg is selling, and what you may be missing, is years of proven success demonstrated in "live" methodical manner. The beauty of it is he will patiently lead you through it as many times as it takes to get it right for half the price of a cheap tune.

I have been working with EFIlLive for ~ 8 years and have learned more in the first three viewings the DVD than I ever hoped. Not sure how many more it will take to prepare before I am back on the dyno to retune my car, but with the DVD in my laptop it is like having a personal certified expert consultant available on a moment's notice.

[waterbug1999]

What books you guys recommend?

[98 tigershark]

Everyone in this discussion knows that we are talking about WBO2 sensors as which one is the best as tested. The truth is that in the same test they all can be off for different reasons which is mainly electrostatic charges by the exhaust gases. Why some say NKG is the best because they do understand this as with their spark plugs and other parts. The WBO2 sensor works off of a very small voltage except for heating to around 600 degree.
The real truth of which sensor is the best is impossible to determine for this reason, explanation and tests required to make a determination have really never been done. Why?
The flow of gases in automotive exhaust systems creates a static charge. While this is not a problem if the charge dissipates as it forms, it can become a serious problem if the electrostatic potential builds to the point were it interferes with sensors. Several trends in automobile exhaust systems have heightened the potential for charge buildup.
This change increased the volume of gases or exhaust through the exhaust
pipes, increasing charge accumulation. Charge accumulation may increase in the exhaust system as fuel pressure is boosted to aid fuel injection. In addition, some oxygenates blended into fuels can increase static charge as they flow through the exhaust system Test for Electrostatic Charge to determine the best WBO2 sensor should includes test methods for measuring the electrostatic characteristics of materials, components, and assemblies to ensure they will not cause electrostatic charges.
Uneven dispersion can make also make conductivity spotty and render a part nonconductive. Exhaust and sensor designers should use uniform wall thicknesses and generous fillets and corner radii to keep material flowing freely and to prevent a filler or fiber from concentrating in parts and on sensor geometries.
The tester must evaluate components to ensure to classify the electrostatic-dissipation characteristics of materials.
The ESD Association classifies material having a resistance below 104 Ohms as conductive, between 104 and 1011 Ohms as static-dissipative, and above 1011 as insulating. Unfilled plastics are usually insulators. Although these classifications were developed primarily for static-safe packaging materials, they are also referenced throughout the static-control industry.
Volume resistivity (in Ohm-cm) is the measured resistance times the area of the measuring
electrode Resistance and static-dissipation measurements should be performed using surface contacting electrodes that simulate real-world surface contact. Standard test probes- pinpoint probes that come with digital multimeters or alligator clips—should not be used. The former lack sufficient contact area, while the latter make random point surface contact and could also punch through the surface and contact the conductive parts. Silver-paint electrodes should also be avoided. They can give false low resistance
readings because the paint makes total surface contact and can penetrate the surface layer to make contact with the conductive additive, neither of which occurs under normal conditions.

In other words unless you use a new exhaust system each and every test and equally discharging every sensor and system every time, you can not be certain as described above as NKG has not done the testing nor has the other manufactures. It is therefore impossible to form an intelligent conclusion as Electrostatic discharge is not the same on any vehicle anyway.
If you understand this then you understand the importance of good grounding procedures for all parts of your EFI system including the sensors and eliminating static electric interference charges if possible. It is impossible to eliminate all the static charge for a WBO2 sensor and therefore no way to tell which is better unless these and other intense factory testing is done.
Regards,
98 tigershark

[98 tigershark]

eficalibrator has a book out and so does Jeff Hartman " How to tune and modify Engine management systems. The second is a good book and has some important tuning understandings but it does fall a little short as to what I have heard about Gregs Book (eficalibtator) so check them both out.
Good Luck,
98 tigershark

What books you guys recommend?

[Aloicious]

What books you guys recommend?

like 98TS mentioned, Greg's book is excellent, I've got it and its a great reference. this is it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Management-Advanced-Greg-Banish/dp/1932494421
just remember that its not a step by step how to tune or anything, its more of something that helps you understand how the PCM works with the engine sensors so you can do the tuning. if you read some of the reviews of the book the ones that are all upset are the ones who want a step by step book made for HPT (at least thats how they all sound, they mention that it isn't specific to HPT. I say good. who needs a HPT book anyways.) so if you want a book that helps you understand how the engine works with the PCM then its a great buy. but if you're looking for some step by step guide. I don't think you'll find it outside the free tutorials on here like autove, etc.

I'm sure his new DVD is also very good, but at the moment, the price is prohibitively high for me. I will most likely get it sometime though.

[waterbug1999]

I was looking at the exact same spot.. I have a 25 gift card from amazon, might as well use it.

[RWTD]

36ers from FAST... I re-did the calcualtions according to the spread sheet.

Ive been playing around with the B5934, B5935 and B5936 as of yesterday for the cold start surge, it did help so I am going to keep adjusting it and see if it will eliminate it.. I see the B5935 and B5936 set too high so its just bouncing the timing from way low to way high until it smoothes out (after 8 to 10 secs).

Unfortunately, the "infamous" injector spreadsheet only helps you in ratioing the IFR table. Everything else is "unknown", and I can assure you that "playing" with those parameters isn't going to cut it, as that data can ONLY be generated on a variable based flow bench. Greg has specifically asked FAST for specific information in the past, so that he can utilize such to build proper injector calibration data in GM units, but they aren't listening.

FWIW, Greg took Ford Racing's injector calibration data and backcaculated everything from Ford units to GM units. His training DVD has ALL the calibration data for the following injectors:



Part Number Flow Body Imped Len Conn Cal Data
M-9593-C302 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=1682) 19 #/hr EV1 11-18 L Jet/Min Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-c302.pdf)
M-9593-LU24 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10972) 24 #/hr EV6 11-18 L USCAR Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-m23.pdf)
M-9593-A302 24 #/hr EV6 11-18 L Jet/Min Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-a302.pdf)
M-9593-AA302 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9043) 24 #/hr EV6 11-18 L Jet/Min Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-aa302.pdf)
M-9593-B302 30 #/hr EV6 11-18 L Jet/Min Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-b302.pdf)
M-9593-BB302 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9044) 30 #/hr EV6 11-18 L Jet/Min Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-bb302.pdf)
M-9593-MU32 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10512) 32 #/hr EV14 11-12 M USCAR Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-mu32.pdf)
M-9593-LU34 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10991) 34 #/hr EV6 11-12 L USCAR Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-lu34.pdf)
M-9593-M39 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=5941) 39 #/hr EV6 11-18 L USCAR Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-m39.pdf)
M-9593-F302 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=4814) 42 #/hr EV1 11-18 L Jet/Min Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-f302.pdf)
M-9593-G302 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9614) 47 #/hr EV14 11-18 M USCAR Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-g302.pdf)
M-9593-LU60 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9988) 60 #/hr EV6 11-12 L USCAR Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-lu60.pdf)
M-9593-LU80 (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=10702) 80 #/hr EV6 11-12 L USCAR Link (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-lu80.pdf)


Keys:
Flow = Flow Rate in lb/hr of injector at 39.15 psi
Body = Body style of injector
Imped = Ohms value
Len = Length of injector (L = long, M = Medium)
Conn = Connector style of injector (Jetronic is the old rectangle style conn, and USCAR is the new smaller square conn)
Cal Data: Links you to the actual Ford Racing injector calibration data you will use to input into your tuning software (note, this data is for Ford vehicles, and will not work if you attempt to use with other non-Ford vehicles)

Notes:
M-9593-A302 and M-9593-B302 are the old "blue tops" and "red tops", respectively, that are not produced any longer.
M-9593-LU60 and M-9593-LU80 are the Siemens (Continental) injector that Ford Racing offers. The LU80 is the original equipment used on the FR500CJ Mustang.
M-9593-F302 is the original equipment on the '99-'04 SVT Lightning.
M-9593-G302 is the original equipment on the '07-'10 GT500.
M-9593-M39 is the original equipment on the '03-'04 SVT Cobra.
M-9593-MU32 is the original equipment on the '05-'06 Ford GT40 (they had 16 total), and is the same injector Whipple uses in their '05-'09 Mustang GT supercharger kits (fuel pressure at WOT is raised to increase their output substantially).
M-9593-LU24 is the original equipment on the '03-'04 Mach 1.

[RWTD]

98 tigershark, that article you referenced from here...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-3768006/Seeking-neutral-controlling-charge-in.html

...talks about nothing in regards to widebands and exhaust systems. It's merely a "safety" article in regards to using plastics inside of the fuel delivery system. All manufacturers conform to ESD testing standards for their fueling systems. Regardless, the ESD (electrostatic discharge) issue that the manufacturers resolve is during the flow of fuel from the tank to the injector. After that, it's in the cylinder, and all you get is combustion.

Edit: Wait I minute, I just figured it out! Someone made up some crap! They literally took that real article I linked above and raped it like newbs do to their tunes! Everyone, look at what was stated, and then look at what the real article said:

A quote from from the hacked up article posted above:


The flow of gases in automotive exhaust systems creates a static charge. While this is not a problem if the charge dissipates as it forms, it can become a serious problem if the electrostatic potential builds to the point were it interferes with sensors. Several trends in automobile exhaust systems have heightened the potential for charge buildup.
This change increased the volume of gases or exhaust through the exhaust
pipes, increasing charge accumulation. Charge accumulation may increase in the exhaust system as fuel pressure is boosted to aid fuel injection. In addition, some oxygenates blended into fuels can increase static charge as they flow through the exhaust system

Quote from the "real" article, titled "Seeking neutral: controlling charge in auto fuel systems.":


The flow of fuel in automotive fuel systems creates a static charge. While this is not a problem if the charge dissipates as it forms, it can become a serious problem if the electrostatic potential builds to the point where arcing occurs. Repeated arcing can pierce a hole through a plastic fuel-system component, which will cause fuel or vapors to escape. During refueling, even a single electrostatic discharge can cause a thermal event.

Several trends in automobile fuel systems have heightened the potential for charge buildup. One is the growing use of plastics, which has generally been a boon to the industry. As insulators, however, plastics heighten electrostatic issues. Another is the shift to fuel injection, which prompted designers to move the fuel pump from near the engine to the fuel tank. This change increased the volume of fuel through the fuel lines, increasing charge accumulation. Charge accumulation may increase in the future as fuel pressure is boosted to aid fuel injection. In addition, some oxygenates blended into fuels can increase static charge as they flow through the system.


Not only just that part, but they took the ENTIRE real article and deleted and added to it in multiple other areas with blatant bullshit! This is about as bad as plagiarism gets, and all for the sake of someone, whomever it was, attempting to make themselves look brilliant.

Here's more:

Quote from from the hacked up article:


Test for Electrostatic Charge to determine the best WBO2 sensor should includes test methods for measuring the electrostatic characteristics of materials, components, and assemblies to ensure they will not cause electrostatic charges.

Quote from the "real" article:


All plastic elements that carry fuel--filler necks, fuel modules, filter, lines, fuel rails, onboard vapor recovery refueling systems and more (Table 1)--receive close scrutiny regarding electrostatic charge. The industry's fuel-system ESD standard, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1645, "Fuel System--Electrostatic Charge," includes test methods for measuring the electrostatic characteristics of materials, components, and assemblies to ensure they will not cause electrostatic hazards in vehicles

And again:

Quote from from the hacked up article:



Uneven dispersion can make also make conductivity spotty and render a part nonconductive. Exhaust and sensor designers should use uniform wall thicknesses and generous fillets and corner radii to keep material flowing freely and to prevent a filler or fiber from concentrating in parts and on sensor geometries.

Quote from the "real" article:


Uneven dispersion can make conductivity spotty and render a part nonconductive. Designers use uniform wall thicknesses and generous fillets and corner radii to keep material flowing freely and to prevent a filler or fiber from concentrating in part geometries such as comers.

Yet more:

Quote from from the hacked up article:


The tester must evaluate components to ensure to classify the electrostatic-dissipation characteristics of materials.
The ESD Association classifies material having a resistance below 104 Ohms as conductive, between 104 and 1011 Ohms as static-dissipative, and above 1011 as insulating. Unfilled plastics are usually insulators. Although these classifications were developed primarily for static-safe packaging materials, they are also referenced throughout the static-control industry.

Quote from the "real" article:


Resistance is used to classify the electrostatic-dissipation characteristics of materials. The ESD Association classifies material having a resistance below 104 Ohms as conductive, between 104 and 1011 Ohms as static-dissipative, and above 1011 as insulating. Unfilled plastics are usually insulators. Although these classifications were developed primarily for static-safe packaging materials, they are also referenced throughout the static-control industry.

And finally:


Volume resistivity (in Ohm-cm) is the measured resistance times the area of the measuring
electrode Resistance and static-dissipation measurements should be performed using surface contacting electrodes that simulate real-world surface contact. Standard test probes- pinpoint probes that come with digital multimeters or alligator clips—should not be used. The former lack sufficient contact area, while the latter make random point surface contact and could also punch through the surface and contact the conductive parts. Silver-paint electrodes should also be avoided. They can give false low resistance
readings because the paint makes total surface contact and can penetrate the surface layer to make contact with the conductive additive, neither of which occurs under normal conditions.

Quote from the "real" article:


Conductive polymers are defined by their volume resistivity, as opposed to surface resistivity, because current flows through them and not just along the surface. Volume resistivity (in Ohm-cm) is the measured resistance times the area of the measuring electrode or material surface, whichever is smaller, divided by sample thickness. The resistance of loaded thermoplastics is nonlinear and is a function of the test voltage applied.

Resistance and static-dissipation measurements should be performed using surface-contacting electrodes that simulate real-world surface contact. Standard test probes--pinpoint probes that come with digital multimeters or alligator clips should not be used. The former lack sufficient contact area, while the latter make random point surface contact and could also punch through the surface and contact the conductive filler or fiber. Silver-paint electrodes should also be avoided. They can give false low-resistance readings because the paint makes total surface contact and can penetrate the surface layer to make contact with the conductive additive, neither of which occurs under normal conditions.


What's going on here? :confused: 98 tigershark, please explain yourself! :sly:

[XLRVIII]

James has an incredible knack for sniffing out BS.
RWTD FTW!

[XLRVIII]

I was looking at the exact same spot.. I have a 25 gift card from amazon, might as well use it.

you will like gregs book.
I bought it a couple of years ago, and it's still on top of my "reading stack".

I've read it cover to cover many times and it's still a "good read".

one of my favorite quotes comes out early on in the book
Suck,Crush, Bang, Blow.. which sounds alot like many internet message boards....but it's good stuff!

hats off to Greg, as I've said many times in various places.

[KenB]

WOW is all I have to say.

[Chevy366]

If this guy is so famous , how come no one has ever heard of him ?
Lots of Trolls around lately .
If his book is $24.95 , now $16.47 , how come the DVD is $249 ?

[KenB]

If this guy is so famous , how come no one has ever heard of him ?
Lots of Trolls around lately .
If his book is $24.95 , now $16.47 , how come the DVD is $249 ?

I'd put Greg up against just about anyone. I believe the book is more theory and concepts while the DVD takes an instructional approach. I plan on buying the DVD myself.

[RWTD]

If this guy is so famous , how come no one has ever heard of him ?

I can assure you that Greg is WELL known in the automotive history. How many engineers/calibrators for manufacturers have you seen that actually come online and post?

Another software site has 13,266 members, and most all the members that have been there for more than a few months have heard of Greg and his work. Greg also has 472 posts there. This site has 5,269 members and 602 active members, and while that's quite a nice number, there's obviously bound to be those who haven't heard much of Greg if all they do is frequent only this site, especially when Greg only has 35 post counts here. On the commercial sites that require sponsorship, Greg doesn't use this particular tradename.


Lots of Trolls around lately .

Don't know what you are inferring by that, but Greg is certainly not a troll. I could call you an uninformed, uneducated dope, but I won't go to that extent.


If his book is $24.95 , now $16.47 , how come the DVD is $249 ?

Then again...

Anyone can buy an informative "book" on Office 2007 for $19.99, but you're going to pay hundreds of dollars for online or DVD instructional training for it, and potentially a thousand or more for in-person training.

[WeathermanShawn]

We all must enjoy tuning or we would not have purchased tuning software and became active participants on this board. Look, whether a book, DVD, or classroom instruction, everyone is free to choose whatever instructional aids are available and what their budget can afford.

It is possible many people are looking for a simple panacea to understand the complexities of tuning. Quite frankly I relied 99% on the tutorials and search on this forum. I am not sure I could have accelerated the learning curve substantially no matter how many books or DVD's I had. This is not to say they are not of great value. But, learning is doing, and having a core interest in a subject. No book or DVD can fulfill that alone, or we would all be masters at everything we did.

While it is an interesting topic, what are the technical points we are learning from this discussion. If anything, I think a great tool would be a simple 20-30 page 'cliff-note' version of tuning with EFILive. You could combine and update the tutorials (minor tweaks) and probably help 90% of the issues that many people have when they begin tuning.

This is a tough economy right now and I wish all the luck in the world to the author. He has offered to credit the cost of the DVD's if you attend one of his tuning classes. It is a little out of my reach right now, but perhaps we need to keep all of this in perspective. For some it is a business, but for me it is a simple hobby. It is all about having fun with your car.

[98 tigershark]

I agree,

Lets go back to the begging of this post. This is what eficalibrator said.
"After lots and lots of prodding, I finally caved and made a training DVD for the GM crew." Think about that statement, I did and I call BS.

Exactly who at GM would ask this guy for a beginners guide to tuning.
NO ONE!!!! I personally spoke to GM and they are trying to stop this kind of thing as it costs them a small fortune and that is a direct quote from GM.

Below is a recent email from Greg regarding my last post on this thread. Below is my response. I think that says it all. You decide.

Widebands actually work on the pricinciple of pumping current through the nernst cell, not return voltage from the Zirconium Dioxide ceramic as seen in narrowband O2's. Further, I've yet to read anything about significant, repeatable effects of static charge due to gas flow influencing HEGO signals from either the manufacturers or a Society of Automotive Engineers paper. At first glance, the story you're repeating seems to come from the same line of thought that has people marketing snake oil such as magnets for the fuel lines or other magical additives that increase fuel ecomony or atomization or whatever. In short, take it with a huge grain of salt. If there were such a profound effect, EVERY OEM would be compensating for it in their own research and production hardware. I can't tell you how many times I've seen claims like this, and 100% of them turned out to be crap. Sorry. I'd hate to see you brainwashed by someone's PT Barnum impersonation with respect to real testing science.

Greg Banish
Calibrated Success, Inc.


My response;
Hello Greg,

I just ordered your book and I am looking forward to reading it very much. The information I put together was from SAE. The laboratory I mentioned is the gold standard for testing period!!. The issue of static charge is real and even effects the fuel system. The materials only a few years back that were thought to reduced the SE build ups or discharges have been found to be worse in many cases. Such as the use of polymers in the fuel lines and to date this Electro Static charge and discharge is an issue that the SEA has not taken on at this point in regards to the use of WBO2 sensors. The problem is real and in some cases can make any WBO2 off by as much as 10-15% according to some members of the SEA. The UL laboratory is not an interested party and the gentlemen I mentioned is an enthusiast an indisputable expert and a family member. ESC and ESD does interfere with WBO2's but to what extent and when is the only question. Polymers, ceramics and metals all store ES charges simply by the movement of any charged particles. On a wide band 0-1V with the medium being stoich .5 is affected by electrostatic charge from the movement of particles in the exhaust, to the extent that this would effect any sensor in its self or readings from any sensor in that system. It is already somewhat based on charge anyway. My friend is a top researcher for electronic measuring devices and also an enthusiast. Since we are looking for the medium of ESC/ESD and how it effects measurements (WBO2 sensors in this case) we can find which sensor is the most consistent to this naturally occurring event in any exhaust system and the sensors involved). It is a fact that the SAE is aware of this as many other industries use the laboratory mentioned to find ways to deal with this as they cannot accurately measure because of ESC/ESD. Until a gold standard for testing is established you do not know what you are claiming is true. My friend and family member is an expert in this field so that is no PT Barnum impersonation (that is very rude Greg!). He is a member of our family and an expert far and above what any WBO2 sensor assembler has in its service. I had thought you were seeking the truth and you insult a very respected expert in this field and a family member and his laboratory that almost every electronic manufacture respects and uses. He says this is a fact and he does this type of testing for a living. The info is from an expert and enthusiast and someone who really knows. I had thought that since you and I are sticklers for the truth and accuracy in measurement that you would have jumped on this opportunity to find the best device and the most accurate WBO2 sensor. By the way some of the measuring equipment they test is in your shop I am sure.
Take care,
Thor

PS; I canceled my book order!

[Aloicious]

If this guy is so famous , how come no one has ever heard of him ?

I knew about Greg's work before I started tuning, he's more well known in the ford circles as (unless I'm mistaken) thats where he got his start and really made a name for himself before really branching out to GM and others. I've got several poor misguided ford friends so thats where I originally heard about him. he's good at explaining tuning principles easily. I agree that his DVD is priced on the high side. but if you think about the work and experience he has to put in it, I don't think its unreasonable.
FYI here is his website for his tuning/teaching business:
http://www.calibratedsuccess.com/


one of my favorite quotes comes out early on in the book
Suck,Crush, Bang, Blow.. which sounds alot like many internet message boards....but it's good stuff!

I forgot about that mnemonic device he used. it never really stuck with me though because I have a background in chemistry and have been working on engines since I was 5 so the proper intake, compression, power, and exhaust terms are more descriptive to me.


Lots of Trolls around lately

Don't know what you are inferring by that, but Greg is certainly not a troll. I could call you an uninformed, uneducated dope, but I won't go to that extent.

Can't we all just get along?:hihi:
and why is everyone arguing over widebands? I dont think either of you are wrong. IMO, first off the LC-1 is NOT the most accurate WB out there by any means. and I would not want a shop to use one as its commercial tuning device. however a commercial shop also shouldn't be really using a NGK if absolute accuracy is desired either. IMO they should just invest in a commercial grade high quality sensor to begin with like an AFM1000 or something. however for a person who simply tunes their own vehicle the LC1 is a good tool. LOTS of quality tunes have used the LC1, saying that some other WB happens to be a little more accurate doesn't discredit the LC1. and its a hell of a lot better than trying to tune with narrowbands only.

[Aloicious]

I agree,

Lets go back to the begging of this post. This is what eficalibrator said.
"After lots and lots of prodding, I finally caved and made a training DVD for the GM crew." Think about that statement, I did and I call BS.

Exactly who at GM would ask this guy for a beginners guide to tuning.
NO ONE!!!! I personally spoke to GM and they are trying to stop this kind of thing as it costs them a small fortune and that is a direct quote from GM.

...

On a wide band 0-1V with the medium being stoich .5

I don't believe he was saying he made the DVD for GM employees. he's a Ford tuner, he's saying he made the GM tuning DVD for GM enthusiests like us. he could have said the "GM posse" "GM tuning folks" "GM Gangstas", or whatever, It was just a figure of speech.

and BTW, widebands don't run off 0-1v they run off 0-5v. narrowbands use 0-1v.

[RWTD]

I agree,

Lets go back to the begging of this post. This is what eficalibrator said.
"After lots and lots of prodding, I finally caved and made a training DVD for the GM crew." Think about that statement, I did and I call BS.

Exactly who at GM would ask this guy for a beginners guide to tuning.
NO ONE!!!! I personally spoke to GM and they are trying to stop this kind of thing as it costs them a small fortune and that is a direct quote from GM.

Ole 98 tigershark, you know damn good and well you haven't spoken to anyone at GM.


My response;
Hello Greg,

I just ordered your book and I am looking forward to reading it very much. The information I put together was from SAE. The laboratory I mentioned is the gold standard for testing period!!. The issue of static charge is real and even effects the fuel system. The materials only a few years back that were thought to reduced the SE build ups or discharges have been found to be worse in many cases. Such as the use of polymers in the fuel lines and to date this Electro Static charge and discharge is an issue that the SEA has not taken on at this point in regards to the use of WBO2 sensors. The problem is real and in some cases can make any WBO2 off by as much as 10-15% according to some members of the SEA. The UL laboratory is not an interested party and the gentlemen I mentioned is an enthusiast an indisputable expert and a family member. ESC and ESD does interfere with WBO2's but to what extent and when is the only question. Polymers, ceramics and metals all store ES charges simply by the movement of any charged particles. On a wide band 0-1V with the medium being stoich .5 is affected by electrostatic charge from the movement of particles in the exhaust, to the extent that this would effect any sensor in its self or readings from any sensor in that system. It is already somewhat based on charge anyway. My friend is a top researcher for electronic measuring devices and also an enthusiast. Since we are looking for the medium of ESC/ESD and how it effects measurements (WBO2 sensors in this case) we can find which sensor is the most consistent to this naturally occurring event in any exhaust system and the sensors involved). It is a fact that the SAE is aware of this as many other industries use the laboratory mentioned to find ways to deal with this as they cannot accurately measure because of ESC/ESD. Until a gold standard for testing is established you do not know what you are claiming is true. My friend and family member is an expert in this field so that is no PT Barnum impersonation (that is very rude Greg!). He is a member of our family and an expert far and above what any WBO2 sensor assembler has in its service. I had thought you were seeking the truth and you insult a very respected expert in this field and a family member and his laboratory that almost every electronic manufacture respects and uses. He says this is a fact and he does this type of testing for a living. The info is from an expert and enthusiast and someone who really knows. I had thought that since you and I are sticklers for the truth and accuracy in measurement that you would have jumped on this opportunity to find the best device and the most accurate WBO2 sensor. By the way some of the measuring equipment they test is in your shop I am sure.
Take care,
Thor

PS; I canceled my book order!

You just made that shit up! Geezus Christ!

Hey newb, care to explain your blatant plagiarism and made up BULLSHIT that I called you out on? You can't, can you? You're a false prophet of your own cult.

You claim you're some marketing genius in your emails, but you're nothing more than a CON ARTIST and an attention whore!

P.s. It's SAE, not SEA, and it's NGK, not NKG. :rolleyes:

[98 tigershark]

A Beer summit is in order here. But how can we test for the best beer?
By drinking allot of them. So a beer summit is in order.:cheers::cheers::cheers:
98 tigershark

[RWTD]

No, I'm not letting you off that easy. Until you admit what you did, I'm going to continue calling you out, so EVERYONE can see you're nothing more than a fake and a "wanna-be" plagiariser.

Again, based on your post #72 of this thread (and don't try to delete it, as I have it copied to a notepad):

98 tigershark, that article you referenced from here...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-3768006/Seeking-neutral-controlling-charge-in.html

As I said before, that article talks about nothing in regards to widebands and exhaust systems. It's merely a "safety" article in regards to using plastics inside of the fuel delivery system. All manufacturers conform to ESD testing standards for their fueling systems. Regardless, the ESD (electrostatic discharge) issue that the manufacturers resolve is during the flow of fuel from the tank to the injector. After that, it's in the cylinder, and all you get is combustion.


Furthermore, I figured out that you made up some crap! You literally took that real article I linked above and raped it like newbs do to their tunes, in an attempt to make you look like some marketing genius! Everyone, look at what he stated, and then look at what the real article said:

A quote from from the hacked up article posted above:


The flow of gases in automotive exhaust systems creates a static charge. While this is not a problem if the charge dissipates as it forms, it can become a serious problem if the electrostatic potential builds to the point were it interferes with sensors. Several trends in automobile exhaust systems have heightened the potential for charge buildup.
This change increased the volume of gases or exhaust through the exhaust
pipes, increasing charge accumulation. Charge accumulation may increase in the exhaust system as fuel pressure is boosted to aid fuel injection. In addition, some oxygenates blended into fuels can increase static charge as they flow through the exhaust system

Quote from the "real" article, titled "Seeking neutral: controlling charge in auto fuel systems.":


The flow of fuel in automotive fuel systems creates a static charge. While this is not a problem if the charge dissipates as it forms, it can become a serious problem if the electrostatic potential builds to the point where arcing occurs. Repeated arcing can pierce a hole through a plastic fuel-system component, which will cause fuel or vapors to escape. During refueling, even a single electrostatic discharge can cause a thermal event.

Several trends in automobile fuel systems have heightened the potential for charge buildup. One is the growing use of plastics, which has generally been a boon to the industry. As insulators, however, plastics heighten electrostatic issues. Another is the shift to fuel injection, which prompted designers to move the fuel pump from near the engine to the fuel tank. This change increased the volume of fuel through the fuel lines, increasing charge accumulation. Charge accumulation may increase in the future as fuel pressure is boosted to aid fuel injection. In addition, some oxygenates blended into fuels can increase static charge as they flow through the system.


Not only just that part, but you took the ENTIRE real article and added and deleted to it in multiple other areas with blatant bullshit! This is about as bad as plagiarism gets, and all for the sake of your attempt to make yourself look brilliant.

Here's more:

Quote from from the hacked up article:


Test for Electrostatic Charge to determine the best WBO2 sensor should includes test methods for measuring the electrostatic characteristics of materials, components, and assemblies to ensure they will not cause electrostatic charges.

Quote from the "real" article:


All plastic elements that carry fuel--filler necks, fuel modules, filter, lines, fuel rails, onboard vapor recovery refueling systems and more (Table 1)--receive close scrutiny regarding electrostatic charge. The industry's fuel-system ESD standard, Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1645, "Fuel System--Electrostatic Charge," includes test methods for measuring the electrostatic characteristics of materials, components, and assemblies to ensure they will not cause electrostatic hazards in vehicles

And again:

Quote from from the hacked up article:



Uneven dispersion can make also make conductivity spotty and render a part nonconductive. Exhaust and sensor designers should use uniform wall thicknesses and generous fillets and corner radii to keep material flowing freely and to prevent a filler or fiber from concentrating in parts and on sensor geometries.

Quote from the "real" article:


Uneven dispersion can make conductivity spotty and render a part nonconductive. Designers use uniform wall thicknesses and generous fillets and corner radii to keep material flowing freely and to prevent a filler or fiber from concentrating in part geometries such as comers.

Yet more:

Quote from from the hacked up article:


The tester must evaluate components to ensure to classify the electrostatic-dissipation characteristics of materials.
The ESD Association classifies material having a resistance below 104 Ohms as conductive, between 104 and 1011 Ohms as static-dissipative, and above 1011 as insulating. Unfilled plastics are usually insulators. Although these classifications were developed primarily for static-safe packaging materials, they are also referenced throughout the static-control industry.

Quote from the "real" article:


Resistance is used to classify the electrostatic-dissipation characteristics of materials. The ESD Association classifies material having a resistance below 104 Ohms as conductive, between 104 and 1011 Ohms as static-dissipative, and above 1011 as insulating. Unfilled plastics are usually insulators. Although these classifications were developed primarily for static-safe packaging materials, they are also referenced throughout the static-control industry.

And finally:


Volume resistivity (in Ohm-cm) is the measured resistance times the area of the measuring
electrode Resistance and static-dissipation measurements should be performed using surface contacting electrodes that simulate real-world surface contact. Standard test probes- pinpoint probes that come with digital multimeters or alligator clips—should not be used. The former lack sufficient contact area, while the latter make random point surface contact and could also punch through the surface and contact the conductive parts. Silver-paint electrodes should also be avoided. They can give false low resistance
readings because the paint makes total surface contact and can penetrate the surface layer to make contact with the conductive additive, neither of which occurs under normal conditions.

Quote from the "real" article:


Conductive polymers are defined by their volume resistivity, as opposed to surface resistivity, because current flows through them and not just along the surface. Volume resistivity (in Ohm-cm) is the measured resistance times the area of the measuring electrode or material surface, whichever is smaller, divided by sample thickness. The resistance of loaded thermoplastics is nonlinear and is a function of the test voltage applied.

Resistance and static-dissipation measurements should be performed using surface-contacting electrodes that simulate real-world surface contact. Standard test probes--pinpoint probes that come with digital multimeters or alligator clips should not be used. The former lack sufficient contact area, while the latter make random point surface contact and could also punch through the surface and contact the conductive filler or fiber. Silver-paint electrodes should also be avoided. They can give false low-resistance readings because the paint makes total surface contact and can penetrate the surface layer to make contact with the conductive additive, neither of which occurs under normal conditions.


Again, 98 tigershark, please explain yourself! :sly:

[SOMhaveit]

There have already been a number of used sets posted for sale. A set went on the Corvette forum for $135.

There will be more and if there is any information we haven't seen before, we'll hear about it.

[RWTD]

...if there is any information we haven't seen before, we'll hear about it.

One of those is injector calibration data for the most popular injectors being used. This wasn't around whatsoever until Greg devoted his hardwork and energy into figuring out. That right there is worth its weight in gold! Unless one has the proper calibration data, they're just raping their tune.

Regardless, this boils down to exactly what WeathermanShawn said in post #84 of this thread:


Wow, this thread has became a little counter-productive at this point.

We all must enjoy tuning or we would not have purchased tuning software and became active participants on this board. Look, whether a book, DVD, or classroom instruction, everyone is free to choose whatever instructional aids are available and what their budget can afford.

It is possible many people are looking for a simple panacea to understand the complexities of tuning.

So if one's input is nothing more than nagging and bitching Greg to death, then don't post in this thread. One should see how much more civil the other software site has been to him on his amazing work. What's the deal here from some of you?

[98 tigershark]

Yes we applied some of the info and principles in that article to exhaust and it proves that ESD is a big deal now doesnt it. I am done with this post. Name calling as you posted is not acceptable to me. Is that what you teach?
98 tigershark



No, I'm not letting you off that easy. Until you admit what you did, I'm going to continue calling you out, so EVERYONE can see you're nothing more than a fake and a "wanna-be" plagiariser.

Again, based on your post #72 of this thread (and don't try to delete it, as I have it copied to a notepad):

98 tigershark, that article you referenced from here...

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-3768006/Seeking-neutral-controlling-charge-in.html

As I said before, that article talks about nothing in regards to widebands and exhaust systems. It's merely a "safety" article in regards to using plastics inside of the fuel delivery system. All manufacturers conform to ESD testing standards for their fueling systems. Regardless, the ESD (electrostatic discharge) issue that the manufacturers resolve is during the flow of fuel from the tank to the injector. After that, it's in the cylinder, and all you get is combustion.


Furthermore, I figured out that you made up some crap! You literally took that real article I linked above and raped it like newbs do to their tunes, in an attempt to make you look like some marketing genius! Everyone, look at what he stated, and then look at what the real article said:

A quote from from the hacked up article posted above:



Quote from the "real" article, titled "Seeking neutral: controlling charge in auto fuel systems.":



Not only just that part, but you took the ENTIRE real article and added and deleted to it in multiple other areas with blatant bullshit! This is about as bad as plagiarism gets, and all for the sake of your attempt to make yourself look brilliant.

Here's more:

Quote from from the hacked up article:



Quote from the "real" article:



And again:

Quote from from the hacked up article:



Quote from the "real" article:



Yet more:

Quote from from the hacked up article:



Quote from the "real" article:



And finally:



Quote from the "real" article:




Again, 98 tigershark, please explain yourself! :sly:

[SSpdDmon]

:blahblah:

Enough's enough guys - this is rediculous!!! Supporters or opposers, this thread is way out of line IMO. If you don't like the guy's stuff, don't buy into it. If you're a believer, understand that not everyone is going to agree with you and stop peddling the material like it's some kind of devine creation.

If you want to sell your shit, there's a Tuning Services Forum (http://forum.efilive.com/forumdisplay.php?f=52) for a reason...

[RWTD]

Yes we applied some of the info and principles in that article to exhaust and it proves that ESD is a big deal now doesnt it. I am done with this post. Name calling as you posted is not acceptable to me. Is that what you teach?
98 tigershark

You're a LIAR, and you know this is fact! You blatantly LIED and plagiarized, and then did what you could, using that hacked-up bullshit article of yours, to discredit Greg and others, all while attempting to make yourself look like some brilliant marketing genius. As I'm sure you're well aware of such already, but people don't care for fakes like you. This thread wouldn't have succombed to what it did if you just wouldn't have stuck your e-Drama and lies into it!

You have been called out and now you're putting your tail between your legs. Run Forest Run!

[Aloicious]

:blahblah:

Enough's enough guys - this is rediculous!!! Supporters or opposers, this thread is way out of line IMO. If you don't like the guy's stuff, don't buy into it. If you're a believer, understand that not everyone is going to agree with you and stop peddling the material like it's some kind of devine creation.

If you want to sell your shit, there's a Tuning Services Forum (http://forum.efilive.com/forumdisplay.php?f=52) for a reason...

agreed, unsubscribed.

[Ninety8C5]

agreed, unsubscribed.


Ditto!

[hquick]

Gotta agree with SSpdDmon.
One thing I'm getting really tired of seeing is this
"raped it like newbs do to their tunes"
RWTD....I've read alot of your posts over on the 'other' forum....and I've learned alot from them, thankyou. I do however consider myself a 'newb' (amateur...and always will be as my real job is too good to throw in for a hobby) in this industry/world. You're not doing yourself any favours by inferring that all 'newb's' RAPE their tunes. It makes you sound elitist. I understand that some people just need to be called out on their claims (it happens in all areas of life) but have a think about how the 'newb's', whom are trying to learn to tune their own vehicles (and hang off posts from 'pro's' such as yourself and Greg) may feel when you constantly refer to them as 'rapists'.

[RWTD]

I understand what you're saying. True, without any instructional information, individuals do rape their tunes. They buy the software, do not read any of the help files, and attempt to think that they can start tuning blindly. It's not much different than most of us men who refuse to read instructions on electronics we buy, or the instructions that came with the other half's computer desk.

If you do not rape your tune, then I wouldn't consider you a "newb". There's a difference between being new at tuning and being a "newb" at tuning. The main raping I see is the PE table. They use it instead of properly dialing in the MAF and/or VE table. You should see all the so called "pro" shops who still rape tunes. And, yes, I'll call them "newbs".

I consistently lend my experience and knowledge to countless individuals all over the world, both in-person and on the various automotive forums. I've spent hundreds of hours of my time giving replies full of ideas and answers for those needing help, including building hundreds of base tunes for many individuals needing such help/advice. I'll continue to do this, day in and out, as I love helping others. Greg does the exact same thing, as do many of us.

[SSpdDmon]

I understand what you're saying. True, without any instructional information, individuals do rape their tunes. They buy the software, do not read any of the help files, and attempt to think that they can start tuning blindly. It's not much different than most of us men who refuse to read instructions on electronics we buy, or the instructions that came with the other half's computer desk.

If you do not rape your tune, then I wouldn't consider you a "newb". There's a difference between being new at tuning and being a "newb" at tuning. The main raping I see is the PE table. They use it instead of properly dialing in the MAF and/or VE table. You should see all the so called "pro" shops who still rape tunes. And, yes, I'll call them "newbs".

I consistently lend my experience and knowledge to countless individuals all over the world, both in-person and on the various automotive forums. I've spent hundreds of hours of my time giving replies full of ideas and answers for those needing help, including building hundreds of base tunes for many individuals needing such help/advice. I'll continue to do this, day in and out, as I love helping others. Greg does the exact same thing, as do many of us.
1 - I hope you're never sent to prison. It'll give you new meaning to the word you abuse so freely.

2 - I don't think we have a choice to fudge our tunes, whether you conform to the old-school method, the Banish method, or whatever. Maybe I'm not fully informed on what's what. But after several years of experience, logic to me says that a sensor such as a MAF should perform consistently (like an IAT, MAP, or ECT sensor) unless you alter the manner in which it takes measurements (i.e. obstruct or alter the path of incoming airflow). In other words, what happens down stream of the MAF shouldn't matter IMO. At that point, the measurement has been taken and it's a fairly sealed system (i.e. what's measured is consumed during combustion). So assuming you leave the stock intake assembly in place, the MAF shouldn't need recalibration. Yet, the method that is always pushed is that a MAF recal is required when modifications are made to the engine. Why should the addition of a catback and headers on a stock vehicle affect the way the MAF reads airflow?? How do those headers change 5,000hz from "X" grams/second to "Y" grams/second of airflow?? Why does a cam only car need upwards of a 15% increase to the MAF curve to get the AFR right - even on stock injectors?? That's what I'm getting at when I say "logic" above.

Keeping that in mind - show me one modified vehicle...maybe heads, small cam, headers, catback....still utilizing a stock intake setup...that can use the highly praised injector values that you so frequently push AND a stock MAF/MAF curve....all without running lean. We can take the VE out of the fueling equation by reducing the RPM limit in B0120, so the PCM can be setup to run that way (without interference from the other main fueling calc source). But in my experience, you can't perform the experiment successfully.

To me, that says that regardless of the accurate data that we accumulate, something has to be fudged at some point along the way. Honestly, what's the difference in fudging the MAF vs the injectors? You can almost argue that it can be seen straight from GM. If they used the same injectors in the trucks, the vettes, and the f-bodies, why aren't they the exact same IFR numbers in the tunes? Do the laws of physics apply differently in a Corvette vs an F-body vs a truck??? Are they magic grits? Did you get them from the same guy that sold Jack his beanstalk beans??

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/images/videomoviespeechmycousinvinny3.jpg

...sorry - sidetracked for a second...

Again, maybe I'm not fully informed since this is merely a hobby for me. But, I'm definitely going to need a LOT more than your repeated praise of some magic numbers before I spend $250 on some DVD. Yes - a lot of work may have gone into the numbers on that disc. But, if something else is fudged in the process, is it worth it???

Personally, I've decided to bite my tongue from commenting on my observations of Greg's methods from the past....as noticed in a tune he did for a friend of mine and others' input locally....and I will continue to bite my tongue. Maybe that's changed now - I don't know. But PLEASE, for the love of all things holy, PLEASE don't come on here with your 19 posts and start cramming this marketed material down our throats. :bad: If you want to debate theory - great. I'm sure we're all happy to debate theory. But, let the theory be the focal point....not the who.

[mr.prick]

I seemed to have dragged this thread into the gutter. :bad:
Some things I read here made me ask some questions and they were answered satisfactorily. (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/satisfactorily)
I never meant to insult or discredit anyone,
I merely sought clarity and if I lived up to my name so be it.
Everyone else should not follow my lead. :doh:
We all can ask questions and be skeptical but if you don't like what you read
be civil about it, there is no need surly to each other.

Besides this thread technically is spam. :angel_innocent:

[Blacky]

But, let the theory be the focal point....not the who.

A wise comment.

If you can't agree to disagree, the please do more listening and less posting. If you must post, then at least be civil and courteous.

Regards
Paul

[Blacky]

We all can ask questions and be skeptical but if you don't like what you read
be civil about it, there is no need surly to each other.

Ahh, you beat me to it...
Paul

[waterbug1999]

Looks like Greg is having another book comeing out in September.

Designing and Tuning High-Performance Fuel Injection Systems

http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/muze/books/L9781932494907.jpg

[WeathermanShawn]

In tuning using EFILive, I have exclusively used the tutorials, idle tuning, and asked questions. I do have Greg's book which I have re-read several times. I have also used a lot of the tuning methods that SSpdDmon has posted over the years and have had great success following verbatim his work on idle tuning and spark advance. So far it has all been for free. Sometimes the reward is just to share what you know.

Thanks for those on this board who have helped over the years for not much more than a thank you. And I have no ill will for those who must make a living in this business. It is when you mix the two on a technical discussion that it can get confusing to many people.

[SOMhaveit]

Jeff (SSpdDmon) and a handful of other people who have been around this forum for years and have spent countless hours tweaking LSx tunes to find out what works and what doesn't, have been saviors to those of us who have the software and want to make necessary adjustments because we have reamed by alleged PROs.

On the other hand, the disciples of people selling their wares who post up and tell us that what we're doing is incorrect methodology or that we are newbs or uninformed but refuse to impart their secret wisdoms with their commentary add nothing to this forum.

I fully appreciate and thank the guys like Jeff who really take their time to help the individual owners that buy EFILive and want to do their own thing. Then there are the PROs that linger and malinger and pick the brains of the good guys when they are stumped, but never make a single contribution to help another forum member one scintilla.

[joecar]

Everyone can express their own opinion(s), but please keep it civilized...

Yeah, I know, we all have manly thick skins, but if you think your written tone may sound harsh, punctuate with a smiley or a pic or something...

(hmmm... actually our wives/kids may be reading over our shoulders...)

[joecar]

...
I have also used a lot of the tuning methods that SSpdDmon has posted over the years and have had great success following verbatim his work on idle tuning and spark advance. So far it has all been for free. Sometimes the reward is just to share what you know.

...

Thanks for those on this board who have helped over the years for not much more than a thank you.

...


Jeff (SSpdDmon) and a handful of other people who have been around this forum for years and have spent countless hours tweaking LSx tunes to find out what works and what doesn't, have been saviors to those of us who have the software and want to make necessary adjustments because we have reamed by alleged PROs.

...

I fully appreciate and thank the guys like Jeff who really take their time to help the individual owners that buy EFILive and want to do their own thing.

...
Yes, we are forever thankful to those people that have contributed their experience/efforts/procedures/analysis to the forum over the years... their willingness to share is what makes this forum a great source of technical knowledge...

we are indebted to you and we thank you always.

[98 tigershark]

A while back I sent Joecar an email as I needed help for a kid that did not have the money to fix the bad tune he paid for that blew his motor. Joe was great and looked at the tune he had and was very helpful. That went along way with me and the kid is now saving for EFILive. Joe that was cool. Thank you as I might not have said so yet.
98 tigershark

[joecar]

Thank you sir for the kind words... I always try to help my brother/sister.

[waterbug1999]

I dont remember what my issue was but I tracked joecar down and was able to speak with him... Thats was sweet and saved me from driveing the car and efilive off a cliff.

[WeathermanShawn]

I know this is probably the last thing Joecar wanted with this thread..but thank you Joecar for all your help.

I can not think of anyone Moderator who obviously looks through every thread and answers virtually all of them. I only saw him wrong once..something about LS1 COTP and Commanded AFR..:)

In all seriousness (since this thread has pretty much died), both you and Jeff (SSpdDmon) have really opened my eyes on injector adjustments vs airflow modeling. You gave usa very important tip about if you are going to change your IFW, you must also adjust your VE Table by the same amount.

Those tips really helped me to understand the entire concept of tuning.

Thanks again.

[5.7ute]

I only saw him wrong once..something about LS1 COTP and Commanded AFR..:)



What:shock: Joe made a mistake, better supply a link to that.:grin:
Seriously I am glad this thread has moved on from the crap before. There are plenty of other forums where that sort of behaviour is prevelant, lets keep it from this one.

[Ira]

why is everyone arguing over widebands? I dont think either of you are wrong. IMO, first off the LC-1 is NOT the most accurate WB out there by any means. and I would not want a shop to use one as its commercial tuning device.

And then again, it might be. If you really want an accurate wideband I believe, but might be wrong that you need to check the calibration with known mixtures. If you're in the business of building and testing widebands you should have an assortment of know AFR gases to test with, if you're actually in a situation where you need to know your wideband is accurate you would likely have a selection of those gases and you'd check the calibration every morning. Past that, the LC1 is probably on average about as good as anything else. It at least admits that widebands need calibration and provides a way to do a free air calibration, which while better than nothing, is not what you'd do if it really mattered. All the smog stations I've been to in Los Angeles all have tanks of gas to calibrate with and rules about how often they need to be calibrated. When I was at Innovate looking around the lab I saw bottles of calibrated gas, so I know they have the ability to know what their sensors are doing. The problems and complaints I've seen with LC1s have all had to do with grounding problems and blown analog output circuits.

I see lots of talk about this wideband is better or worse than that one, but they almost all concern reliability as no one I'm personally aware of other than Innovate has any way to actually test one.

For the purposes of tuning a street car, plus or minus a few tenths of a AFR is not really an issue and if they read 14.7 or so at idle in closed loop it can likely be assumed that they're close enough at the 12 or 13 to 1 we care about.

Ira

[Ira]

And I forgot to say in the last one, chill people. The guy wrote a book and made a DVD. Lets see what the people who bought and read or watched them have to say. Maybe it is the best tuning intro ever and is well worth the money. I would have bought it for $35, probably won't for $225 or whatever it is but I don't tune cars so it's a lot of money for a couple hours of entertainment. If it was the difference between success and failure on a $10,000 engine it's easily worth double what he's asking and even if it's not the best thing possible, it might be well worth that to someone wanting a kick start at tuning. As long as it's not leading them down the wrong path it's likely worth that for a lot of people who are trying to get over the steep initial learning curve.

Ira

[DrX]

My Review of this DVD package:

As titled, this is a "Beginner's Guide." It is a good review of the general process of engine tuning with specific detail on how available consumer software(primarily HPT) can be used to accomplish this. It will aid the beginner in understanding some of the concepts and the process of engine tuning and should be viewed once he has read and understood the user's manual and tutorials associated with his particular tuning package. The video is an educational adjunct rather than a shortcut to learning how to tune.

Intermediate users would likely already be familiar with most material covered and would find Greg's books more informative. The DVD does demonstrate nicely though how the dyno is used in the tuning process.

The hard to find fuel injector data that is included is a significant bonus, but for the beginner/hobbyist that value would depend on whether his particular injectors were among those listed........ I could use some data for my 95lb/hr Delphi Low Z's.:cheers:

[hitecrn]

what about a online version you could just download instead of waiting for a dvd to be delivered....?
:sly:

[ssvolvo]

Just received mine and am delighted.
Viewing this DVD should be a prerequisite before posting on LS1tech forum!
Just wish I had been able to get this kind of help 2 years ago when I first fooled with EFIlive. I must have a thousand hours trying to figure stuff out that is clearly laid out in Greg's tutorial.
The DVD just reassures me that what I learned over the past couple years have not been in vain.
My hat is off to Greg for a job well done.
John

[ScarabEpic22]

I think I might be saving up for it, I took the EFI101 class and it was great! But having a DVD I can play over and over might be nice.

[WeathermanShawn]

I still think you could combine, condense, and summarize a number of the EFILive Tutorials and produce a great 20-30 page 'book' on "Tuning with EFILive". Granted it would take some work, but I agree that I also spent countless hours going through all of the SD, MAF, Trims, Idle, WOT, etc.

I have thought of doing it myself, but that may be beyond my 'pay grade'. In no way is this a negative assessment of the Tutorials that are available, but it is the sequence and process that can be heard to learn. In my case the process of 'Calibrating the MAF' with a wideband after you you constructed the VE Table really threw me. Ultimately I decided on going to Closed-Loop, so that required further tuning to adjust the Trims.

Whether Mr. Banish's DVD went exactly through that process I do not know. But, if the DVD did that for you that is great. But, truthfully it could be done quite easily and available to all EFILive customers online at 'no charge'.

Again, I have enjoyed his books and admire his way of teaching. I still believe that information and knowledge is something that is of great value to share. However, doing it free is an admirable quality and many do it on this forum almost daily.

Again, no offense to anyone..just sharing a viewpoint that I hope others might also have.

[hitecrn]

very well said shawn, i previously owned a website of my own a private one that provided a service to its customers and i setup a beginners section and a advanced section. both sections were setup with very detailed step by step how to's. it was a group effort and the members all helped one another out as needed.

[hquick]

Yeah...that reminds me...I think I owe Joe (Joecar) some Cherry Ripes!
One thing I've noticed since the release of Gregs DVD....injector tuning advice has almost come to a standstill.
Could be any reason for this but I see it as two main issues:
1) people are worried about being 'sued' for sharing info learned from the DVD and spreadsheets provided with it.
2) People are worried about being 'wrong' and so therefor 'afraid' to share their ideas/thoughts.
Personally....I think the forum has been negatively effected by it...but that's just my opinion.

[SSpdDmon]

Yeah...that reminds me...I think I owe Joe (Joecar) some Cherry Ripes!
One thing I've noticed since the release of Gregs DVD....injector tuning advice has almost come to a standstill.
Could be any reason for this but I see it as two main issues:
1) people are worried about being 'sued' for sharing info learned from the DVD and spreadsheets provided with it.
2) People are worried about being 'wrong' and so therefor 'afraid' to share their ideas/thoughts.
Personally....I think the forum has been negatively effected by it...but that's just my opinion.
I'll still handout advice. LOL

I haven't purchased the disc myself and am happy to share what I have come to learn thus far. If I'm wrong...point it out. I don't care. It's an opportunity for us all to learn. :)

[joecar]

I don't have the disc, it's outside my budget...

I'll still share what I've learnt... and I'll research anything else... and like SSpdDmon/Jeff said, do point out my mistakes (how else am I going to learn)... :)

Thanks hquick/Howard, I can wait for now, I'm trying to cut down on sugar/carbs... lol, is there a pun in that... :hihi:

[WeathermanShawn]

Great replies!

There are some really smart and good people on this forum. Very compelling point about some people's concern about getting "sued', "or being wrong". If that is the case, that is a very unfortunate viewpoint.

Thanks to those that share. We know who they are. I am fairly good at writing, but probably not at the point to actually work on combing SSpdDmon's Idle work and some of the tutorials. And the knowledge I have gained about tuning is all focused on my own 2002 Camaro OS. but, I still think it would be a great idea to actualy produce an "EFILive Guide to Tuning". Combining all of the procedures in one short booklet would be of great use.

Again, it is encouraging to see replies about the talent available to members here, and at no cost. I could not have learned tuning without this forum.

[dfe1]

I think the fear of being sued is a bit overdone. This is a free forum which by definition is a place for the interchange of opinions and ideas. Since these are supplied free of charge, and are simply suggestions, I think it would be pretty difficult to make a case in court. Especially since it's entirely possible that the person seeking advice didn't follow it properly.

[hquick]

What I see from looking at this and other forums is people writing "don't publish your tune because your injector numbers are the intellectual property of Greg".
I need to stress that this is in my opinion...from my observations.
I have no intention of buying Gregs DVD (I did buy one of his books) and don't really care if I never end up with the 'correct' numbers or not. Yes it interests me but I won't lose any sleep over it.
My Burb runs well for my amateur efforts of tuning it along with the help of many members here.
I just think it's unfortunate that of late whenever a 'newby' or anyone for that matter asks an injector related question the first response seems to be "buy the DVD".
That's not what forums are about...as you posted DFE.

[NASABlue]

people are talking about market place and target buyers, I agree with those above:

There needs to be a COMPREHENSIVE "EFI Live Guide to tuning".

TAquickness, joecar, and SSdeamon have contributed greatly to providing support for EFIlive and this forum and software owes them a great deal.

For software to come out based on an HP tuners platform but be marketd to EFI live users just makes them further question the choice of tuning software in their shrinking market presence. Sitting where I am, I think it's a slap in the face.

18 months of unsuccessful tuning, I want to push my car off a cliff and haven't decided if I want to go with it or not.

[eficalibrator]

One thing I've noticed since the release of Gregs DVD....injector tuning advice has almost come to a standstill.
Could be any reason for this but I see it as two main issues:
1) people are worried about being 'sued' for sharing info learned from the DVD and spreadsheets provided with it.
2) People are worried about being 'wrong' and so therefor 'afraid' to share their ideas/thoughts.
First and foremost, I still spend plenty of time handing out FREE advice both here and on other popular tuning boards. I can't even begin to count how many PMs and emails I answer for free on a regular basis as well. Please don't attempt to turn a helpful training aid into some greedy exercise on my part. I participate in the aftermarket tuning community because I actually enjoy it, and the DVD is priced fairly considering the level of professional instruction included.

1) To date, I'm not aware that I've had to resort to that anywhere. All I ask is that my work is not plagarized or distributed illegally. You are free to share your own work on your own vehicle files. The DVD addresses how to properly apply the raw data to just about any late model GM vehicle, which is where the justification for the price lies.

2) Let's face it, there's been a lot of "bad advice" handed out over the years with regards to injector "tuning." The simple fact is that if you start with the right data that represents your actual hardware, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Conversely, if you don't really KNOW how your injectors perform (moreso than just linear flow rate!), then you're in for a long, painful tuning exercise. I have worked with several injector suppliers to encourage them to post this data for free the same way FRPP has for the Ford tuning crowd. To date, the only taker in the GM market has been Paul Yaw at Injector Dynamics (http://www.injectordynamics.com/) (YawPower), since creating this data certainly takes a large effort OUTSIDE THE VEHICLE, and on something more capable than the typical ASNU (http://www.asnu.com/history.htm) bench used by many injector resellers.

Even if you have that raw data, it's still important to understand how it's applied to a PCM. There's a bit more to training than just having raw injector data.


...I still think it would be a great idea to actualy produce an "EFILive Guide to Tuning". Combining all of the procedures in one short booklet would be of great use.
I originally proposed almost exactly that to the "Brand X" software guys, but they weren't interested. The result was the DVD that's out today with real working examples from both popular software systems. If Paul and Ross would like me to put something together for them using EFILive exclusively, I'll certainly entertain it.

[WeathermanShawn]

Greg, it appears you may have been unfairly attacked. I certainly apologize if any of my comments suggested that. I certainly feel it is fair to be reasonably compensated for one's work.

Greg, as far as the injector tuning..I have no idea of whatever controversy exists there. I agree one should always credit the use of anyone work's and abide by all copyright laws. It does get blurry as to what is public domain and what is not. Especially the Internet..it all gets blurry about authorship.

I commend you for offering a short summary of detailing tuning with various software services. It is interesting to hear [there was no interest]. I am just telling you and others that would be a great service. But, I appreciate your honesty.

As far as the 'free' comments, I certainly did not intend to offend anyone. Perhaps the price of the DVD shocked a few members. To some degree I was a little shocked also, perhaps this latest recession has made people fearful of spending money in general. So it could just be the current economic reality.

My 100% genuine intent was to acknowledge those that share information so readily. A lot of experts in many fields keep their knowledge to themselves. I see that a lot in my field also. It is just an admirable trait when the really knowledgeable people share it no matter who is asking.

Again, I mean no offense. Your book is up on one of my shelves along with only about 20-30 other books, so I like it. Please accept my apology if I contributed to any unfair attack on you. However, there are those out there who don't share like you do. That was the opinion I was attempting to express and the audience I was trying to reach.

[hitecrn]

personally i have heard nothing but praise for greg, i also myself applaud his efforts. and no his dvd shouldnt be pirated or shared freely. he took time out of his (i suspect extremely busy life) to compile this learning tool for those interested in bridging their learn gap concerning efi tuning and yes he should be compensated, i think their are enough people in this site should they wish to take time could (like i suggested earlier) setup a beginners section and also a advanced section. this site is a great site with alot of knowledgeable people and has the potential for far more, forums are a group effort. when i had my site what i am suggesting worked very well. some people have greater learning curves than others , but this is not to say their drive to learn is any less. the best advertisement is "WORD OF MOUTH" if you wish to sell a product ease of use and great support it also what sells. this is why most average Joe's buy EDGE, PPE, Bullydog and others, simply because its plug and play. efi live and Hp tuners are awesome and hands down 2 of the best tuning tools on the market. and the majority that buys these products hear "By Word Of Mouth" how awesome they are but havent a clue on how to use either one. if you had a beginners section with tutorials on where to begin and what and how then follow with a advanced section for the ones more experienced it would rock, and i suspect EFI Live and HP's sales would probably show a substantial increase.
course this is only my observation, and in no way intended to hurt any ones feelings :-)

[hquick]

First and foremost, I still spend plenty of time handing out FREE advice both here and on other popular tuning boards. I can't even begin to count how many PMs and emails I answer for free on a regular basis as well.

And that's very good of you Greg...nobody is disputing that.


Please don't attempt to turn a helpful training aid into some greedy exercise on my part. I participate in the aftermarket tuning community because I actually enjoy it, and the DVD is priced fairly considering the level of professional instruction included.

I'm not trying to attack you in any way, shape or form. These are my observations over the last few months...both here (not AS much) and over on the HPT board.
I'm sure the DVD is very reasonably priced (The Allen Bradley software we use for our PLC, SLC, Devicenet etc...is EXTREMELY expensive).


1) To date, I'm not aware that I've had to resort to that anywhere. All I ask is that my work is not plagarized or distributed illegally. You are free to share your own work on your own vehicle files. The DVD addresses how to properly apply the raw data to just about any late model GM vehicle, which is where the justification for the price lies..

It's not even you...it's your 'fans' that push the issue.
Can't find the thread but some were saying "you shouldn't let your buddy sit down and watch the DVD with you...because he didn't pay for it" (or words to that effect). God...what a load of crap!!! That's ludicrous.


OUTSIDE THE VEHICLE, and on something more capable than the typical ASNU (http://www.asnu.com/history.htm) bench used by many injector resellers[/I].

Even if you have that raw data, it's still important to understand how it's applied to a PCM. There's a bit more to training than just having raw injector data.


I originally proposed almost exactly that to the "Brand X" software guys, but they weren't interested. The result was the DVD that's out today with real working examples from both popular software systems. If Paul and Ross would like me to put something together for them using EFILive exclusively, I'll certainly entertain it.


Again...I wasn't trying to attack you...this was an observation.

Here's a list of replies I gathered in about 5 mins of searching, to injector related threads where people have asked for help regarding their injector settings,


"Fuel adjustments mentioned below are really just small tinkering. Nothing major and really won't notice any difference. But...

Your short pulse adder values need ever so slightly adjusted as per the Banish Dvd walk thru. Start watching at approximately 38:16 (video time) for directions."

"Min. Pulse width is very close but not exact as per the Banish DVD info. as well."


"get greg DVD from summit racing and you will find every thing in there about how to tune and data for the injectors so you can do them right ."


"It available on Gregs Dvd. 250 bucks plus shipping."


"I would buy greg banish's DVD to make sure that you know tuning basics + it has full injector data for your injectos so that you controll them better than only adjusting the IFR table which is not the only table to adjust."


"Get greg DVD it will tell you how to do it ."


"These are a great injector & wok perfectly well, provided you have all the calibration data on them (Greg's training DVD has the calibration data, and also instructs you on how to apply the data to your tune)."


"I have all the right data for these (along with instructions for properly applying this data and tuning) in my training DVD."


Nobody will post numbers for fear of being pounced on by your 'followers'.
That's fair enough...they've paid for the DVD. But I just see the board as becoming a closed community where people are now alot less willing to share.
It's very difficult to help someone with their tune if they can't/won't post it.
People say "PM me your tune...it's OK...I have the DVD" (not showing me something I haven't paid for). If the forum became all PM's...it's no longer a forum!
As I stated earlier....I have the necessary numbers for my injectors...so don't need the DVD and don't particularly need the help with my tune.
I just feel for the new guys who just get the standard answer "buy the DVD".
There are alot of people who can't afford it!

[hitecrn]

ditto: beginners section / advanced section
most dont even know where to start

[SSpdDmon]

It's not even you...it's your 'nut huggers' that push the issue.


Fixed...





J/k I keeeeed, I keeeeeeed. ;)

[hitecrn]

just another observation , why would you need to buy the dvd when you have a forum devoted to tuning enthusiast? you spent 800$ for the turner do you think you should have to spend another 250$ for an instructional dvd when you have this site with many very knowledgable people here that could probably answer most any question you have....?
hmmm........i would bend over backwards with my site helping anyone that had question or problems. but thats me

[hquick]

Fixed...





J/k I keeeeed, I keeeeeeed. ;)


Lol!
:hihi:

[DrkPhx]

just another observation , why would you need to buy the dvd when you have a forum devoted to tuning enthusiast? you spent 800$ for the turner do you think you should have to spend another 250$ for an instructional dvd when you have this site with many very knowledgable people here that could probably answer most any question you have....?
hmmm........i would bend over backwards with my site helping anyone that had question or problems. but thats me

That is a valid point and one I agree with; but in all honesty the DVD fills a huge void left on a every tuning board including this one because the pertinent information is scattered throughout countless threads posted over the last few years.

It is frustrating for a beginner to spend alot of money on tuning software and have virtually no basic "how to get started tuning" guide. Frankly this process should be laid out clearly and concisely for the beginner. Instead you get the "do a search" or "there are different ways to skin a cat" comments. That's total BS and very discouraging as well.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, perhaps I am naive but I am clueless as to the assertion that injector flow or what is common engineering knowledge could be protected under Copyright Law. The Internet and the vast amount of information that is now considered 'Public Domain' is very blurry.

I mean I have seen Greg Banish's Engine Management Book published word for word on "Google" and about every auto magazine cover to cover available online for no charge. I am not encouraging plagiarism, but how can injector flow results be copyrighted?

I mean I have always wondered how tuning software have been developed. Did the auto companies agree to share code?

Again while I agree a Training DVD is needed, the debate in my mind is totally based on the market and economics. While I paid $800.00 for a tuning suite, I have used it for many many hours and feel it was worth every penny. Knowledge by reading, DVD, or even classroom learning has a retention rate that can be below 10%. So the value is really determined more by how motivated or passionate a person is in their own learning. If you use a book or DVD over and over then I say it is worth it.

I think the legitimate constructive criticism is that tuning with our software suites could be made a little easier by some thoughtful combining of some of the Tutorial Material and separating some of the Basic Tuning Procedures from the Advanced. For Closed-Loop people using Trims, you can get it down to about 3-4 steps to have your car running pretty good.

Again, thanks for listening. Any other members share these views?

[hitecrn]

sad to say i am just getting started, love my EFI already and if i was alot more advanced than i am i would surely take the time myself to create the beginners guide... :-)

[dfe1]

A few observations-- When I started "tuning", I worked on carburetors and mechanical distributors. Then I started working with chips, the early flash computers and now current systems. One thing that has been constant across all of those platforms is that an extremely high percentage of tuning problems are the result of the tuner not understanding engine operation. That problem has become worse as control systems have become more sophisticated. Just because a person understands computers and software doesn't mean he or she knows how to tune an engine. I continually answer questions from experienced tuners, that indicate they really don't have a firm understanding of the air flow, fueling and ignition requirements of engines. So before anyone worries about "learning how to tune", they need to learn about engines. There are plenty of carburetor books around (I wrote a couple of them) that will provide much of this information. If you think reading a book about carburetors won't teach you anything about fuel injection, you've completely missed the point.

Also keep in mind that EFILive is nothing more than a tool. (The best tool of its type in my opinion). If you feel like pushing your car off a cliff and throwing EFILive in the trash, you either have a tool you don't know how to use, or you have mechanical issues with your engine that software can't fix.

[eficalibrator]

No offense taken, Shawn. I have a thicker skin than that, so it takes quite a bit to piss me off.

As far as the 'free' comments, I certainly did not intend to offend anyone. Perhaps the price of the DVD shocked a few members. To some degree I was a little shocked also, perhaps this latest recession has made people fearful of spending money in general. So it could just be the current economic reality.


I'm sure the DVD is very reasonably priced (The Allen Bradley software we use for our PLC, SLC, Devicenet etc...is EXTREMELY expensive).

I picked the price point based on a number of market issues. Currently, the DVD is 1/2 the price of both my live "basic" class (http://www.calibratedsuccess.com/Basic.htm) and a competing learn at home booklet (which I'm not sure of whether it properly addresses injector calibration), and some other calibration training alternatives from SAE (http://www.sae.org/pdevent/otherproduct/PD130701/PDD) that don't even mention this kind of software. The live version of anything from SAE is significantly more expensive, such at this emissions seminar (http://www.sae.org/pdevent/97011) I took a while ago.

To further sweeten the deal, I'm offering a 100% credit on the DVD purchase price toward my Advanced GM training class (http://www.calibratedsuccess.com/GM%20Advanced.htm). Anyone who plunks down the money for the disc from Summit can get all of it back if they decide to further their training. I don't see anyone else in this arena offering that kind of deal in this economy. Heck, I even sent FREE copies of this DVD to all of my previous advanced GM class attendees from over a year ago.


It's not even you...it's your 'fans' that push the issue.
Can't find the thread but some were saying "you shouldn't let your buddy sit down and watch the DVD with you...because he didn't pay for it" (or words to that effect). God...what a load of crap!!! That's ludicrous.

Some people jump to conclusions and take things a little too far. That's beyond my control, as I certainly don't have a problem with people sitting down together to learn with a friend. All I ask is that nobody violates existing copyright laws by making bootlegs or anything like that. I've seen plenty of these come up for sale used in the classifieds, so that may be an option for those looking for a deal. The downside is that I can't give the class discount to people who didn't buy it new.

Judging by the comments and reviews posted above, I would guess that there's a lot of people who are satisfied with what they got for the money. The DVD was intended (much like my original book) to help people avoid making costly mistakes at the beginning of their tuning adventures. Even without engine damage, I've seen lots of wasted gas money and personal time from people who were looking for a shortcut around the proper procedures; where they ended up spending more in the long run and increasing their aggravation unnecessarily all because they thought they were "saving money" by taking some questionable advice online.

Paul and Ross make a great tool, much like a Snap-On torque wrench, ECM wideband, Glock pistol, or Bruel & Kjaer RTA. As is the case with all of these, they're only as good as the user; and training is a vital part of that.

[DrkPhx]

dfe1 -Well said and so true, but let me add some points. I had solid knowledge of workings of a PCM controlled EFI motor along with good computer skills before tuning. Yet when I started tuning it was very overwhelming with a steep learning curve.

The only reason I didn't blow up the car and burn the software was because I had a friend with EFIILive walk me through the basic steps and explain things. What a difference that made. Now, I try to do the same and help out new users as much as I can.

[dfe1]

dfe1 -Well said and so true, but let me add some points. I had solid knowledge of workings of a PCM controlled EFI motor along with good computer skills before tuning. Yet when I started tuning it was very overwhelming with a steep learning curve.

The only reason I didn't blow up the car and burn the software was because I had a friend with EFIILive walk me through the basic steps and explain things. What a difference that made. Now, I try to do the same and help out new users as much as I can.

DrkPhx- You're correct, knowing how EFI engines operate doesn't preclude the requirement of knowing how tuning software operates. One of the major advantages I see with EFILive is that it's extremely well thought-out and intuitive. That makes learning it a bit easier, but that doesn't negate the fact that there is a lot to learn. I think a lot of the tuning issues some people have when using other software is a result of the cumbersome and non-intuitive nature of that software.

[injectordynamics]

I registered with this forum just so that I could respond to this thread.

This is my first and last post, and my only purpose is to promote Greg's seminars and DVD's.

Kickback...commission...just being a nice guy...

None of the above.

I'm doing this for my own selfish reasons. To sell more injectors.

As Greg mentioned, we offer data for GM ECU's with all of our injectors.

This should solve a lot of tuning problems, but if the tuner doesn't understand the fundamentals of the GM control strategy, good injector data doesn't make a bit of difference.

If I sell you injectors, and you use internet wisdom put forth by the black magic keyboard warriors, your results will end up somewhere between mediocre and horrible.

If the results are horrible, I get blamed for supplying bad injectors, or bad injector data.

There are dozens of strategies you can use to change the air fuel ratio, but few of them are correct.

And few know which ones are correct.

Don't think that I'm calling you stupid; it's not like that at all.

Consider this. I don't know what any of you guys do for a living, but I guarantee if I do your job for a day I am going to make a mess of things.

Not because I am stupid, because I am not educated in the details of your profession.

For most guys tuning the GM ECU that is exactly the case, and from what I can see that goes for most shops as well as individuals tuning their own stuff.

This is not an attack on anyone’s character or brainpower, it is simply an observation.

Previously there was no training available so how could I blame anyone?

In fact, I was not even able to generate the proper data because I couldn't find anyone who understood the GM control strategy.

Luckily I found Greg on the internet. I thought I struck gold because he is a calibrator for GM. A guy who actually knows what's going on because he works with this stuff daily.

Unless some other GM calibrator shows up on the scene, Greg is the only guy qualified to teach this stuff.

The good news is that it is actually quite simple once you understand the control strategy.

I attended the advanced seminar to be sure that I understood the strategy, and because of that I am able to fill a hole in the market by supplying the correct injector data.

If you are using Injector Dynamics injectors and are having a problem I will do what I can to help. If you attended Greg's seminar, or watched his DVD it means you are tuning properly and we should be able to get things sorted out.

On the other hand if you are "tuning" with the offset tables, not scaling the right tables, and just generally making a mess of things because you don't understand the GM control strategy, there is little I can do to help aside from flying to you and tuning your car.

I want everyone to be happy with their purchase, and educated customers will be happier than uneducated customers because they will get far better results.

In my opinion, the training is more valuable than the tuning tool and if I had it my way, EVERY SINGLE ONE of my customers would attend the class, or view the video before using my product.

So there it is. IMHO doesn't apply here. This is more like a baseball bat to the head because I feel that strongly about it

Learn the control strategy and it will benefit all of us.

Paul Yaw
Injector Dynamics

[joecar]

A few observations-- When I started "tuning", I worked on carburetors and mechanical distributors. Then I started working with chips, the early flash computers and now current systems. One thing that has been constant across all of those platforms is that an extremely high percentage of tuning problems are the result of the tuner not understanding engine operation. That problem has become worse as control systems have become more sophisticated. Just because a person understands computers and software doesn't mean he or she knows how to tune an engine. I continually answer questions from experienced tuners, that indicate they really don't have a firm understanding of the air flow, fueling and ignition requirements of engines. So before anyone worries about "learning how to tune", they need to learn about engines. There are plenty of carburetor books around (I wrote a couple of them) that will provide much of this information. If you think reading a book about carburetors won't teach you anything about fuel injection, you've completely missed the point.

Also keep in mind that EFILive is nothing more than a tool. (The best tool of its type in my opinion). If you feel like pushing your car off a cliff and throwing EFILive in the trash, you either have a tool you don't know how to use, or you have mechanical issues with your engine that software can't fix.Dave,

Well spoken...:rockon:...engine operating principles (including airlfow/fuel requirements and ignition requirements) need to be understood as a pre-requiste.



Are you DE...? If so, I have several of your books... :good:

[joecar]

Hi Paul (injectordynamics), (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?u=9528)

Welcome to the forum...:cheers:...you make some very good/valid points.

Feel free to post here all you like... you may find customers asking you questions here on this forum.

[dfe1]

Dave,

Well spoken...:rockon:...engine operating principles (including airlfow/fuel requirements and ignition requirements) need to be understood as a pre-requiste.



Are you DE...? If so, I have several of your books... :good:
Yes-- you have a carburetor book or two?

[joecar]

Yes-- you have a carburetor book or two?Maybe more (I know of 5 or 6 that I have).

[NASABlue]

I was leaning to letting the efi live and the car go off the cliff together...
No need to spend the extra energy finding a trash can for EFI live.:grin:

Even an outline of steps would be helpful in addition to getting into the details so deeply and one issue at a time in the posts. The way it is now the information is fragmented. Is it good detailed information, sure, but what are we supposed to do first? What are the key words for the search?

IE:

I. Preliminary Adjustments
A. First adjust injector setting
B. Adjust idle airflow and engine rpm so you can keep the thing running

II. Then adress the VE and Back up VE tables
A. Insert the Auto VE tutorial PDF
B. Put in something about idle spark control adjustment

III. MAF Calibration
A.
B.

IV. Timing and Knock Sensor adjustment


By no means am I saying this is the order to do things in because, quite frankly, after 18 months, I'm not sure! The one thing I know with certainty is I probably left out a 3-5 dozen steps because every time I turn around, there's something that I left out which voids any previous work and I get to start all over.

I think the other Ideas here are on the $$, there really needs to be a beginners section where instructions are given step by step for certian mods or an over all comprehensive tune. Certainly taking people through the steps for adjustments needed for common mods like injectors, manifold, headers, heads, and cam that can be used for reference in simpler adjustments adjustments for a manifold or headers only. The comprehensive process would already be there, just pick out what you need and reference it.

Like a choose your own story, but choose your on mods...

I don't think we are trying to cut on efi live as a tool, it has every capability possible; however, it's the supporting documents that leave much to be desired on outlining the overall process. This is very clear from the need of this CD, unless the efi instructions are left vauge to sell products which fill the gap and/or ultimately tuners that have to be paid in addition to purchasing the software.

Some of this stuff in the thread may not be fair to the original posting promoting the CD, but it shows areas of efi live instructions are not conveying what the software is billed/capeable of doing or what the users purchased it for. The responses here show there is validity to question if a person dropping $750+ on the software and wideband should have to turn around and pay 33% more for the instructions.

It's like those bank commercials with the little girl that goes to ride her bicycle but is stopped after 6 inches because the guy providing the bike keeps her from riding outside the box. You can ride the bike, just not very far...

You can use the software but you have to pay more to learn how to actually make it work.

Efi Live should definately take Greg up on putting something together which comes standard with their software and/or speaks directly to efilive customers.

If it makes the product cost $50 more, it would be well worth it in prolificating a reputation of being easy to use. Now that would capture market share through happy customers. Happy customers talk. People with modded cars draw attention. If it was a giant PITA to tune the car so the person wish they never started the process, that certainly won't encourage anyone else to take the plunge.

Move past defending efilive and listen to the actual deficiencies in use or the user. In this case it's not the product that's deficient, it's the fragmented instructions ability to conve the info to the common guy.

[dfe1]

NASABlue-
You've made some good points. I'm sure better instructions, books and DVDs will come in time. Part of the instruction deficiency problem is a result of the time and/or money required to produce documentation. All of the companies offering tuning software are relatively small and simply don't have the resources to cover documentation expense. But I can tell you, some things to improve the situation are in process.

[hitecrn]

now things are headed in the right direction and on track to being more organized.
NASABlue very good post. i applaud you .
injectordynamics you have made an extremely good observation and are 100% correct. greg is one awesome dude both of you have contributed enormously.
This is for you Greg, i would like to make a suggestion, you know i speaking for myself i suspect i would have jumped on the DVD from summit the other night but what turned me off was having to wait for the dvd to be delivered to my door. now if it had been a downloadable version i suspect i would still be studying it now. or as was mentioned earlier does summit sell efi-live...? not from what i was able to see. so why not work a deal with efi-live and include the dvd with the tuner. if the dvd was 150 extra to have it with the efi pkg seems to me if would sell alot more and everyone would benefit .

[hquick]

Paul Yaw,
I'm aware of your background...so don't take this the wrong way.
Why don't you 'injector suppliers' provide ALL injector data with the injectors you sell?
This would go a long way to alleviate the issues alot of people have when tuning.

[Blacky]

I've not read this entire thread but there have been numerous comments asking why EFILive does not have instructions on "how to tune my vehicle?".

There are a number of reasons why EFILive will not offer tuning advice in any form - ever!


EFILive supports literally hundreds of different model years. There are significant differences between most model years. Very few companies (if any) smaller than GM have the capability to research the tuning vagaries of each different model-year.
EFILive is a tool and tools do not ship with instructions on how to tune vehicles. The instructions that ship with tools are how to use the tools.
Most of our customers use EFILive to re-tune a modified engine. We cannot possibly hope to know (or offer advice) on tuning each of the millions of combinations of modifications.
Contractually EFILive does not offer tuning advice, that is left to our resellers and workshop customers.
Legally EFILive cannot offer tuning advice, due to the possibility of one or two nutters who would claim to follow our "tuning advice" and still manage to damage engine or trans components.

If you know how to tune an engine, EFILive is a great tool, just like if you know how to build and engine, wrenches are great tools. If you don't know how to tune en engine then start by taking the EFI University 101 intro to tuning. Just like if you don't know how to build an engine you take a trade course at your local college. I'm sure you would not expect the wrench manufacturers to provide you with instructions on how to build an engine.

It sounds simple to ask "why doesn't EFILive offer tuning advice or training or documentation?", but it is really a minefield that we are not going to enter.

Regards
Paul

[mr.prick]

It's not the onus of EFILive to teach you how to tune,
the products they offer enable you to tune.
Some more in depth instructions would be nice but not absolutely necessary,
practice makes perfect.

[GAMEOVER]

Paul Yaw,
I'm aware of your background...so don't take this the wrong way.
Why don't you 'injector suppliers' provide ALL injector data with the injectors you sell?
This would go a long way to alleviate the issues alot of people have when tuning.
X's(2)

Every "INJECTOR SUPPLIER" at the very least, should supply all injector data with a purchase of Injectors...IMO:)

[hitecrn]

i think the gist of all this is advice on using the equipment and software, tutorials on the proper steps to begin learning. no offense intended blacky. and you are correct. efi live offers the means to tune at the users descetion it is his responsibilty to learn how.

[NASABlue]

I feel a torque wrench is quite a bit different than tuning software. It's early, so I'll spare everyone the analysis, but certainly we can agree on that.

I understand the liability aspect, but we agree to mutiple libiality statements even down to the last "accept" button we push when program the ECU. Are the semantics of legalities really keeping a "tuning overview" or "beginners guide" (different than instructions) from being developed? After all this, we run to the lawyers for defense of why things are the way they are instead of taking it upon ourselves to make things better.

Agreed, there are an indeterminate # of options to mod a car, no one person could cover every last scenario for every part made. However, there is a definate process to adjust the fuel, airflow, and timing which will cover the majority of modifications.

It makes me a little sad on a Saturday morning... and I have an X pipe to wrap in heat tape (Yes, it did come with instructions) so I can go instruct at a Pocono driving school. I don't have students pay $350 for a weekend at the track and just throw them out there to watch them wreck their car for fear of being liable from giving them too much direction. That would be a poor excuse and end up in a big unhappy experience at best. I want them all to return home safe, tell their friends, and return with them so we can have fun all over again. At the end of the day, they are better safer drivers which will benefit them, their families, and others in every day life.

Life isn't about the money we make, things we have, cars we drive, or where we live. It's about how the interactions of our lives can positively affect and influence others. This, in turn, can be extended exponentially by those we help to others they help. Botteling up information so that only a few can have the knowledge will choke out the growth, create negativity, and build frustration towars a person or product.

So, I guess I can agree, the software doesn't have to show you how to tune (which is good because it doesn't), but wouldn't it be more successful if it did? THere are lot's of things we don't have to do, but we will be more successful if we do them.

[NASABlue]

So I'll bite on the EFI University.

I live in Northern Virginia, what is available to me?

[hquick]

So I'll bite on the EFI University.

I live in Northern Virginia, what is available to me?

Lol!...Atleast it's in the same country as you! :grin:

[Blacky]

Sure a torque wrench and a tuning tool are different and my comparison of the two was probably a bit flippant, sorry.

I'll try a gain with a more appropriate example. Say you're running a business and you want to purchase computer software to handle the business' accounting needs. Lets say you go out and purchase MYOB. That purchase will not include instructions on how to be an accountant. It will include instructions on how to install the software, how to use the software, what buttons do what function etc, but it will not teach you how to be an accountant.

Or if you purchase Microsoft Word, it will not teach you how to read and write.

Or if you purchase a CAD/CAM package it will not teach you how to design or engineer products.

Each of those packages are designed to help people perform certain tasks within a skill set that they already posses or are prepared to learn by educating themselves via the appropriate educational facilities.

In that regard, the EFILive software is no different to those types of packages.

As for the legal restrictions, there are people that will litigate given any opportunity. Unfortunately, those that don't believe in litigation as a business tool suffer because of the few that do.

We do not withhold tuning information because we want to keep people in the dark. We have many competent and professional tuners that use our software. Part of our support agreement and privacy policy is that if there is a fault in our software we may need them to send their tune files to us for analysis. Those tune files may contain years worth of development work. They need to be confident that the information they send to EFILive is kept confidential, and it is. If we were to be handing out tuning advice willy-nilly, many of our high end customers would not feel comfortable sending us their tunes and that would hamper our efforts to improve the software.

Regards
Paul

[hitecrn]

like me....lol
how many classes do yal offer in mississippi....?

[NASABlue]

I can appreciate all of this.

I hope someday to better understand.

Given the logistics of the EFI University, would Greg's CD suppliment EFI University 101 or better?

[hitecrn]

wonder if greg would offer a downloadable version of his dvd........
course wouldnt be hard to do make a image split the image with winrar and d/l it

[hitecrn]

or online classes like a lot of the colleges do ...... efl live 101 online would rock

[WeathermanShawn]

Paul:

At the risk of being forever banned from this forum I think some of the reasons you gave for not offering better introductory tuning instructions are valid and others are fallacy.

It just sounds like a cop out. I have read through the entire thread, but I am disappointed you have not taken the same time to take honest feedback from your purchasers.

I am just saying there could be a better organization of the material. If the legal aspects you cited were true you would not even publish a tutorial.

I will say I agree there are way to many platforms to properly address every platform. Your answer just sounded like you did not want to be bothered.

Respectfully.

[hitecrn]

i think we should take a poll, see how many here are advanced enough to prepare a beginners guide to efi-live and where to start tuning. then see how many are willing to make it happen... :-)

[DrkPhx]

It just sounds like a cop out. I have read through the entire thread, but I am dissapointed you have not taken the same time to take honest feedback from your purchasers.

The liability comments do come off like an excuse. To EFILive's defense their stance is not that unusual when dealing with software. 2 years ago my work spent $2m on new software and there was no manuals or instructions for individual departments so we had to create our own. We demo'd several different brands and it was the same for everyone. Anyway, the goods news is it can be worked around. Make users download the instructions with their license number and key along with a typical software disclaimer. That should be plenty enough to cover any possible legal issues. I seriously doubt any user would have a problem with that.

EFILive owners- You have a great product. I use it extensively and have convinced others to use it. However, every one of those users have complained about one thing; lack of initial start up support.

I don't think anyone here or any new owners of the software are looking for detailed instructions how to tune their specific setup. That would be ridiculous. Rather we are saying a basic 'how to get started tuning' process (i.e. what to tune first, what each table does and the results of adjusting those tables) that helps a newbie get their feet wet. Focus on a handful of tables to keep it simple and straightforward.

In my experience every time a newbie sees the net result of their adjustment a light goes off and they start to undetstand the process. The "how to" should focus on getting newbs to this point and nothing beyond. After that the training wheels are off and this forum can support the user at that point. Having a beginner section would help as well.

Please don't take this as flames, just trying to offer some constructive criticism along with some suggestions.

[eficalibrator]

I don't think anyone here or any new owners of the software are looking for detailed instructions how to tune their specific setup. That would be ridiculous. Rather we are saying a basic 'how to get started tuning' process (i.e. what to tune first, what each table does and the results of adjusting those tables) that helps a newbie get their feet wet. Focus on a handful of tables to keep it simple and straightforward.
This is almost exactly what's in the DVD, as con be confirmed by those who have viewed it. The tables are shown in both software systems with a "here's exactly where to find it" description. My classes do much of the same as well, just taken a step further.

There are no current plans to make an online version of either the DVD or my live classes. In all honesty, piracy becomes a very real concern here that's very difficult to police. My experience has been that it's very difficult to get better nationwide (world-wide, even!) distribution and response times than what Summit offers. Literally everything I've ordered from them arrives in 1-2 days, and many people have spent more than that much time debating whether or not to make a purchase in the first place.

I still do live classes occasionally coast-to-coast in an effort to make it possible for more people to attend with reasonable travel expenses. My class schedule is dominated by the day job schedule, so I can't always just drop everything and have a class right nextdoor to someone.

[WeathermanShawn]

Again Paul and other Forum Readers:

It is meant to be constructive criticism and in the spirit of good will. I do not do tuning as a business. It is solely a personal hobby. I would not have purchased the software, a laptop, and Roadrunner PCM if I did not think the software did not have great value.

Don't you guys want honest feedback? From an user's perspective the 'legal' angle gets old. I mean honestly, some tutorials talk about disabling catalytic converters..disabling O2 sensors, etc. I mean lets be honest..if that does not bring Civil or U.S. Federal EPA liability, how can just some refinement of the existing tutorials and general tuning concepts be an issue? Obviously, the practice of piracy is revolting and I can understand those concerns.

It is meant to be constructive, and not a slam on any existing guidance.

Perhaps I just do not understand the exclusivity and lack of sharing of some aspects of the automotive world. So much scientific information is shared, so perhaps I am just naive. It just seems so much information from tuning came from regular folks who simply enjoyed sharing information.

Well, I think I made my point. If I was doing tuning as a business I would certainly sign up for professional classes. All I can offer anyone is a free and generally highly accurate weather forecast if you ever need one for personal use.:grin:

Sincerely

[Blacky]

I have read through the entire thread, but I am dissapointed you have not taken the same time to take honest feedback from your purchasers.

Maybe my comment about "I have not read the entire thread" was not very clear. Much of this thread is just bitching and complaining about one thing or another. I've read the posts I consider relevant (to EFILive), I just skipped over the ones that read like a two year old having a tantrum.

Sorry that I gave the impression I didn't care.

Regards
Paul

[Blacky]

Don't you guys want honest feedback? From an user's perspective the 'legal' angle gets old. I mean honestly, some tutorials talk about disabling catalytic converters..disabling O2 sensors, etc. I mean lets be honest..if that does not bring Civil or U.S. Federal EPA liability, how can just some refinement of the existing tutorials and general tuning concepts be an issue?

Yes, good constructive feedback is great and is highly appreciated.

The emissions issue is a country by country issue. We sell EFILive to countries where the US EPA has no jurisdiction. EFILive is manufactured in a country with zero vehicle emissions laws. There is a very clear warning about emissions compliance in the EFILive software. That is not what I meant when I mentioned legal issues.

EFILive has been hit with multiple lawsuits from variety of sources, mostly from within the tuning industry (there are some crazy people with even crazier ideas in this industry). So far none have had any validity and all of them have been rejected.

If we published a tuning guide, based on previous legal challenges that we've faced, I believe it would open up other avenues of attack and give the crazies even more ammunition to try and take a shot at us. At the very least it would provide a lot of fodder for flame wars on various forums.

However, the legal reason is probably a very small part of why we do not intend to publish a tuning guide. The main reason is and always has been, it is difficult (if not impossible) to do properly and to make it useful to a broad cross section of people. Which is probably why no-one else has done it either.

Let's assume for a moment that someone was prepared to develop a beginner's guide to tuning.

What topics would it cover? Which vehicles? Which engine setups, would it include transmission setups? Diesel or Gas? Open loop or closed loop? Would it cover tuning using a wide band? Which ones? Would it focus on MAF or MAF-less? Dare I mention injectors and flow rates fuel pressures, referenced to manifold vacuum or not? Should it cover how to tune on a dyno, a load cell dyno or not? Or maybe how to tune on the road? Normally aspirated or forced induction? Street legal or off-road? Which country's emissions laws would it adhere to? Would it cover tuning for maximum power or drive-ability or maybe just economy?

It is not a trivial task and forgive me for re-stating the obvious but there are as many ways to tune an engine as there are customers who want to tune. Heck, even our own customers do not tune their vehicles the same way.

If anyone invested the time and effort developing a beginners guide to tuning, some newbies may find it useful but I have no doubt that most everyone else would just sit around bitching about how its not what they expected and that it doesn't cover the exact application that they wanted to tune.

Regards
Paul

[Chevy366]

Sounds to me like if Greg just cut out the Injector Tuning section and made a CD of just that he could flog a few of them . $.2
I agree EFILive 101 (http://www.efi101.com/efilive.html) is a great way to get started because it does teach you the software ins and outs .
So how did anyone tune before Greg's DVD ? Seems a lot of people were successfully tuning before it .

[dfe1]

.
So how did anyone tune before Greg's DVD ? Seems a lot of people were successfully tuning before it .
This thread is starting to degenerate into a typical internet piss and moan extravaganza. The complaining will undoubtedly continue until someone offers a complete tuning guide-- with personal instruction-- free.

There's an old saying in aviation-- the reason you get a pilot's license is so you can learn how to fly. EFI tuning is pretty much the same-- if you really want to become proficient, you have to read extensively and/or get formal instruction so you're ready to start some serious learning. You never truly understand a subject until you get some hands-on experience.

There are a lot of excellent EFI tuners around who never had any formal instruction or hand holding. They just did whatever it took to become proficient.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well Paul, when you explain it like that I certainly understand more of your points that I previously did.

One ugly truth about the 'Internet" is that it at times it can be nearly impossible to discern tone and even context when communicating.

It sounds like with many things there is no substitute for hard work and no substitute for putting in the hours to learn.

I agree, maybe this thread has gone too far. You and others make some excellent points. Hopefully we can all remember when we first started learning..for me it is relatively fresh (15 months) and still remains a fascinating hobby.

Cheers to all..:cheers:

[joecar]

Yes, the written word loses most of its tone... it takes more than just disagreeing to get banned from this forum... I find that the majority of forum members can discuss hot topics in civilized/intelligent manner, there are very few cases of blatant disrespect... I thank you all for being grown-up acting... :cheers: ...if you are unsure about your tone, just add smilies (upto 6)...:)

To everyone who has read this thread, have you see the Tutorials section of the forum: forumdisplay.php?f=17 (http://forum.efilive.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)

In particular have you seen this thread: showthread.php?t=7866 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=7866)

Most of that information has been put together by forum members...

Ok, granted, some of it is not beginner level, but that just prompts/motivates the beginner to do more research and ask questions in order to understand the concepts...

for example, the AutoVE tutorial contains step-by-step instructions on how to do AVE... there are concepts in there like OL, SD, BEN that the user is unfamiliar with... sure he could still follow the steps, but it would be better if he researched those concepts first... if the AVE tutorial were to explain all the concepts, then it would become a textbook and that would defeat the purpose of a tutorial.

Continuing the CAD analogy from a prior post:
A CAD drawing software package lets you "draw" objects, but a ME degree gives you the knowledge to "design" the said objects... for example, in the attached "drawing" are the bolt holes sufficiently far from the corners to avoid breaking off the corners...? The CAD tool can't give you that knowledge, it simply lets you exercise that knowledge that you have gotten from a course or from experience... and also, consider how many different engineering applications can the drawing software be used for... if the drawing software had to embody that much engineering knowledge it would not fit on anyone's PC.

$0.02
:)

:cucumber::banana:

[gmh308]

And to echo what Joecar points out, the ME degree that provides one with the knowledge to constructively utilise CAD based tools for example is based on an enormous amount of foundation learning, knowledge and generally experience.

Internal combustion engines have changed little in principle in their many many decades of use. They draw in an air/fuel mix, compress it, and add spark so it turns over and creates power.

An EFI engine is no different just as a CAD program doesnt really do anything different to what any ME can do with pencil, paper and slide rule :) (+ cubic time).

It just does it far more effectively and more highly optimised.

The key to leveraging a toolset like EFILive rapidly is understanding the operation and physics of an internal combustion engine, so reading up on theory and operation of an IC engine and general tuning of same is a great start and provides a lot of foundation knowledge and context which accelerates the learning curve once EFILive enables one to delve into that little black box GM calls the PCM or ECM.

And while GM sells these little black boxes as part of cars & trucks, or over the counter as a spare, they dont tell you anything about them. :) :)

Greg's book and/or DVD enables the gap to be bridged between black box and effective and productive tuning more quickly if you value your time highly enough.

As for specific ECM tuning manuals, GM makes so many changes to how tables influence engine tuning, even within the same model let alone model to model, that no single manual or tutorial could hope to be accurate in more than one case. Add that to the myriad of different performance applications and combinations, plus different platforms including conversions and retrofits...the mind boggles.

Like with any building, a good foundation is key. :)

Just like WeathermanShawn says "It sounds like with many things there is no substitute for hard work and no substitute for putting in the hours to learn".

No free lunch in this game. :)

[ryans1000]

Well I'll throw in my 2 cents that I agree witht he weatherman, there needs to be better write ups and beginner tutorials posted somewhere in one place rather then randomly all over the forums. Writing the software is the hard part, writing guides is the easy part and an easy way to make your product that much more enjoyable and competitive.

As for Greg's cd, yea I think its too pricey for a dvd for a novice but let the man sell what he wants and how he wants, its his business. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. I think he would probably sell 10x as much if they were $50 but that is for him to decide.

[2004gmc]

Well I'll throw in my 2 cents that I agree witht he weatherman, there needs to be better write ups and beginner tutorials posted somewhere in one place rather then randomly all over the forums. Writing the software is the hard part, writing guides is the easy part and an easy way to make your product that much more enjoyable and competitive.

As for Greg's cd, yea I think its too pricey for a dvd for a novice but let the man sell what he wants and how he wants, its his business. If you don't like the price, don't buy it. I think he would probably sell 10x as much if they were $50 but that is for him to decide.

i have to agree i to wish there was a beginner write up posted. if the dvd was $50 i would get one but as it stands now i cant do the $250us which would be like $300cad by the time it lands here. i think i might sell my v2 since i cant seem to get a better understanding of the efi live tuning as much i dont want to get rid of it but if i cant figure it out its no point of holding on to it since i could use the money for something else

[Bruce Melton]

Let's not forget there is a 188 page PDF users manual with EFILive, plus 10 special topic tutorials. I have never see such good documentation with any software. When you select HELP you get that, and lots more.

Tuning is science project that can be developed into an art form.

Greg's DVD can take you to the next step but one needs to study, really study, not just watch watch the DVD. Between the included EFILive documentation and the BTG DVD there are more than enough resources to make most any motivated student into a competent tuner. The two pieces constitute a college level course for those who will take it on-

I sure do not have time or patience to walk someone through the steps from opening the EFILive box thru tuning all the various GM models. It is overwhelming to just thinking about what it would take. I have #32 of V1 and a V2 and been at it for ~ 10 years but when I start reading the EFILive users manual I am amazed by what I don't know.

IMO,

Bruce

[WeathermanShawn]

It sounds like a case that even if 95% of the customers wanted a combined Beginner's Tutorial Guide to Tuning, it is just not going to happen.

I was a little surprised by the general rebuff of the idea. Sometimes I think smart people just simply forget, or may not know what it is like to work through some of the 'mazes' involved with beginning tuning.

I agree the most challenging area would just be the infinite number of platforms and how you would address all of them. Until then just realize the tuning software is a great tool and you have to learn it by doing, reading, and asking questions.

As to the DVD, the market will eventually determine pricing. Would it be nice to have a more affordable teaching manual..yes..will it happen..if no one bought tuning software because of the difficulty involved, then there would be a more obvious incentive.

[gmh308]

Let's not forget there is a 188 page PDF users manual with EFILive, plus 10 special topic tutorials. I have never see such good documentation with any software. When you select HELP you get that, and lots more.


Excellent point there Mr Melton.

Add all the EFILive available tutorials to the information on this forum, plus something like Swingtans VVE guide, plus something like Mr Banish's book (published before the DVD), plus considerable time reading and some hands on time, plus the availability of people with experience on this and other forums that will respond to well thought out questions with the right context included...there is a lot of information & help around.

Pulling it together personally into a productive result enrichens and solidifies the learning experience.

If I was to sit down and try and encapsulate 25+ years of tuning experience into a single guide, it would really only be a duplication of what is already available.

What are people having trouble with that makes them want to park their tuning packages?

I would wager that Greg Banish's DVD would pay for itself in wasted gas! Or at least half.

:)

[joecar]

i have to agree i to wish there was a beginner write up posted. if the dvd was $50 i would get one but as it stands now i cant do the $250us which would be like $300cad by the time it lands here. i think i might sell my v2 since i cant seem to get a better understanding of the efi live tuning as much i dont want to get rid of it but if i cant figure it out its no point of holding on to it since i could use the money for something else
__________________
04 gmc cc 4x4 6ltr tuned by w4me

operator error
efi-live v2 sitting on shelf
i am to dumb to operate What can I say... other than I haven't seen you ask many specific questions... sure, you asked "is there a tuning for dummies book...?" and very generalized question... have you looked thru this forum at all...? :confused: ...Some self motivation is required, nobody's going to do it for you.

Greg's DVD assumes you already know a few things, it's not going to teach you how to run the software... the scantool/tunetool have user manual pdf's, and there are various tutorial pdf's... have you seen my post above (have you looked at those links)...?

Maybe tuning isn't for you, it isn't for everyone. :shock:

[2004gmc]

What can I say... other than I haven't seen you ask many specific questions... sure, you asked "is there a tuning for dummies book...?" and very generalized question... have you looked thru this forum at all...? :confused: ...Some self motivation is required, nobody's going to do it for you.

Greg's DVD assumes you already know a few things, it's not going to teach you how to run the software... the scantool/tunetool have user manual pdf's, and there are various tutorial pdf's... have you seen my post above (have you looked at those links)...?

Maybe tuning isn't for you, it isn't for everyone. :shock:

well joecar i know u have helped me out before and i thank you for that.i have tried to read all that i can on learning this but it is a VERY STEEP learning curve.i may not be up to the task of learning this since i am not a garage just someone that wanted to try and learn to do a basic tune.you could be right about it not being for everyone

[WeathermanShawn]

GMC, I wouldn't give up.

And to Joecar and others, don't misinterpret my opinion on a 'tuning guide' as a negative comment. I do think the tutorials far exceed what a lot of tuning companies put out. Personally, I think 90-95% of the information is there in the tutorials..I think most of my opinion is about sequence and order of tuning..and that is where perhaps some improvement could be gained.

Thats where a talent like Mr. Banish could be a great help, but it sounded like there was not any interest in him doing it. And lets be honest..price seems to be the issue on the DVD (no offense).

I totally agree you need lots of self-motivation to learn tuning just as there is any subject that has some complexity. And GMC, the learning curve is probably greater than most people realize. But, the reward is phenomenal. You can make you car run from idle to WOT without a hiccup.

[Lextech]

2004 GMC:
When I first got my software I read EVERY night. I would read every new post and if possible I would open up a tune and reference it against different answers that were posted. I also made several "Notepad files" with info I had gleaned from fellow forum members. I am still a novice and probably always will be but, I have learned a lot.

Jeff

[hquick]

I'm with Jeff.
I think I've read EVERY post in this entire forum.....atleast 10 times.
I just open a tune....go to the forum and start typing the parameter number (B3647...etc) in the search box....and start reading.
When I was in Canada recently....I was helping a frien by 'playing' with his tune whilst we were driving. He said "wow...you're really good at this". I believe I am a complete novice. Just read, read, read...and then ask questions.
I was lucky enough to have some 'direct' help from both Mick (LS1Evil) and JezzaB. Even some of the smaller things they showed me were a big help.
I'm NEVER going to do this for a living so I try and pass on everything I learn....but you have to ask.

[joecar]

well joecar i know u have helped me out before and i thank you for that.i have tried to read all that i can on learning this but it is a VERY STEEP learning curve.i may not be up to the task of learning this since i am not a garage just someone that wanted to try and learn to do a basic tune.you could be right about it not being for everyoneHave you tried doing these things:
- use the spreadsheet to calculate your IFR table to see if it is "correct",
- read thru the AutoVE tutorial, this illustrates some "connections" between tables;

More info:
What to tune first: showthread.php?t=7866 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=7866)
Various "tutorials": forumdisplay.php?f=17 (http://forum.efilive.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
Table relationships: member.php?u=10 (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?u=10)

[joecar]

...
Maybe tuning isn't for you, it isn't for everyone. :shock:When I say this, please understand I am saying this with no harsh tone... :shock:

waterskiing, painting my house, yardwork are not for me... :bad:

:)

[joecar]

2004 GMC:
When I first got my software I read EVERY night. I would read every new post and if possible I would open up a tune and reference it against different answers that were posted. I also made several "Notepad files" with info I had gleaned from fellow forum members. I am still a novice and probably always will be but, I have learned a lot.

Jeff
I'm with Jeff.
I think I've read EVERY post in this entire forum.....atleast 10 times.
I just open a tune....go to the forum and start typing the parameter number (B3647...etc) in the search box....and start reading.
When I was in Canada recently....I was helping a frien by 'playing' with his tune whilst we were driving. He said "wow...you're really good at this". I believe I am a complete novice. Just read, read, read...and then ask questions.
I was lucky enough to have some 'direct' help from both Mick (LS1Evil) and JezzaB. Even some of the smaller things they showed me were a big help.
I'm NEVER going to do this for a living so I try and pass on everything I learn....but you have to ask.
That is what I did (and still do), reading every night, googling things I don't know, keep Notepad files of terms, concepts, procedures...

I log my commute to/from work everyday and I look at the logs, I pick some different pids to log and I log those... if some tables piques my interest, I edit those tables and take a test drive... this will use up all of your time.

Joe

[joecar]

GMC, I wouldn't give up.

And to Joecar and others, don't misinterpret my opinion on a 'tuning guide' as a negative comment. I do think the tutorials far exceed what a lot of tuning companies put out. Personally, I think 90-95% of the information is there in the tutorials..I think most of my opinion is about sequence and order of tuning..and that is where perhaps some improvement could be gained.

Thats where a talent like Mr. Banish could be a great help, but it sounded like there was not any interest in him doing it. And lets be honest..price seems to be the issue on the DVD (no offense).

I totally agree you need lots of self-motivation to learn tuning just as there is any subject that has some complexity. And GMC, the learning curve is probably greater than most people realize. But, the reward is phenomenal. You can make you car run from idle to WOT without a hiccup.

Good luck to all.

..WeathermanShawn..Shawn,

I know you don't make negative comments...

you hit the nail on the head: sequence and order of all the material on this forum... there's a lot of it and it is not easy to compile into a better format... and there's user comments that illustrate some principle or other that I don't want to lose...

And, I don't have the resources at present to compile it all together into a book... I have never written a book, so I don't know what's involved, but I imagine it takes a lot of time... and my experience is limited specifically to F-car LS1B (I don't have resources to get into the details of E38, E40, E67, T43)...

Hmmm... I'll keep open eye/mind to gathering material together as if I were going to write a book (...lol... I'm not necessarily commiting myself...:))...

Joe
:)

[WeathermanShawn]

Joecar:

I actually like some of the work/displays you have on your profile page. That is generally how I would view a 'tuning guide'.

Granted it would take a lot of work. If one wanted a quick and easy suggestion, just simply combing the "What to Tune First" thread along with the 'Idle Thread' into one single tutorial would be a great first step. If someone knows the Font and Style of the Tutorials I or someone else could give it a shot.

Second, I like your collection of various threads (links) in one of the stickies. Thats where a lot could be accomplished. In essence you have all the material..it is a ton of work to then combine and sort through.

If you decide to do a book let me know. I'll be your first buyer. If you need any help let me know. Like you, my direct experienced centers around one platform and a narrow and focused tuning agenda (LS1-M6). So it is always easier to critique or offer suggestions than actually accomplish the task.

Good discussion though. This thread has certainly garnished a lot of views!

Cheers..:cheers:

[dfe1]

Just to make sure I understand where this thread is going-- people are looking for a beginner's guide to tuning and feel it is the responsibility of EFILive to supply it. Following that thought to its logical conclusion--

When you purchase a car, it should come with a beginner's guide to driving
When you purchase a stove, it should come with a beginner's guide to cooking
When you purchase a word processing program, it should come with a beginner's guide to writing (would probably need two, fiction and non-fiction)
When you purchase a book, it should come with a beginner's guide to reading

Do I understand correctly?

[WeathermanShawn]

I think the word 'responsibility' might be a little strong. While I understand your analogy, I would think of more of an enhancement. I.E., if I can get and keep more customers without wasting too many resources..might make business sense.

Obviously, with the publication of a Tune Manual, Scan Manual, Tutorials, etc., someone determined the effort to offer assistance was of value.

Instead of making this an argument, I would just say that from my viewpoint it was merely a suggestion from a customer. I would bet you over 75% of EFILive Readers would agree. But, your point is well taken. Responsibility, of anyone in particular..No, it is an idea that might be a win-win.

[98blackss]

First all, a Noob here. I dont own EFI Live, but thought I would get started down the path of learning before I invest in an expensive paper weight!

I want to learn about tuning so I am researching the crap out of this site.

I am a bit disappointed, people make it sound like I need all these thousands of dollars in tools.... Yes I have a nice laptop, lots of $$ in tools, I believe I can learn, but over $800for a tuner, then $250 for a DVD on top of that all at once! Whew, that is steep. I bought my wrenches one at a time over the last 20 years and am still adding to my toolbox...

In my searching I see .tun file extentions. I'd like to be able to look at some tunes to see what the heck people are talking about... Would be nice if EFI Live would have a reader like Adobe Reader or AutoCad Viewer... Maybe they do and I havent found it yet... again a noob here

Thanks,
TJ

[joecar]

...
In my searching I see .tun file extentions. I'd like to be able to look at some tunes to see what the heck people are talking about... Would be nice if EFI Live would have a reader like Adobe Reader or AutoCad Viewer... Maybe they do and I havent found it yet... again a noob here

Thanks,
TJTJ, welcome to the forum...:cheers:

To view the .tun and .log files, download/install the V7.5 software from the EFILive website downloads page (http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=133).

[Blacky]

Download the software here:
http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=133

With the V7 software, you can open and view the *.tun calibration/tune files and *.efi data log files.

The V8 version software is currently only useful for configuring FlashScan devices for black box logging and black box reading. Eventually it will replace the V7 PC based software, but not just yet.

Regards
Paul

[gmh308]

And EFILive is the only S/W tuning tool that will let you try their product first and view tunes!!! :)

EFILive provides over 100 wrenches at once. Very comprehensive, and with a few minor arguable exceptions, all said and done...nothing comes near it. :rockon:

:cheers:

[98blackss]

Awesome! I will download it and start poking around.... I was PM'ing with another member, from what I have learned so far is that a tune is like human DNA, no two are alike! I definately have a lot to learn....

Thanks,
TJ

[Spuco]

After lots and lots of prodding, I finally caved and made a training DVD for the GM crew. This DVD walks through the fundamentals of tuning using aftermarket tools on the dyno with live demos for both MAF and VE tuning. I have also included a section on proper fuel injector characterization, along with a data disc with reference data for many popular injectors to take the guesswork out of getting those SD60's (or 80's, or FRPP 30's, or green tops, or....) to work right all the time. Most of the DVD was shot when all I had was brandX GM tools, but I added supplements to each section showing exactly what the corresponding tables look like in EFILive, so no need to worry about the confusion there.

The DVD will be sold through Summit Racing as part number SME-DVD-1 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SME-DVD-1/). I'm planning to ship this week to Summit, so they'll be filling orders soon after. As an added bonus, I'm going to give anyone who buys the disc from Summit a 100% credit of the disc purchase price toward my advanced GM class within one year. You simply will not find better instructional material out there today and my aim is to deliver it in a clear, accurate, and useful manner. Many thanks to Paul and Ross for helping me get set up with their hardware recently. You'll be seeing more and more EFILive in my advanced classes as we move forward.

Will this cover Diesel Tunning?

[joecar]

Will this cover Diesel Tunning?No, I'm told it's gassers only, and using HPT.

[TAQuickness]

... If someone knows the Font and Style of the Tutorials I or someone else could give it a shot...

Don't worry about making it pretty. If you can pull the data together, I'll help you with the formatting.

[Spuco]

Thank You

[WeathermanShawn]

Don't worry about making it pretty. If you can pull the data together, I'll help you with the formatting.

Granted, pulling the data together is a monumental task. When this thread first started it was easy to see the need for a "Beginners Guide to Tuning".

With time, the complexities of numerous Vehicle Platforms, legal and copyright issues, etc., one begins to to understand the reluctance of a software vendor to take a project like this on.

TA, so far in all honesty my 'expertise' is limited to LS1 H/C closed-loop tuning. Some of my tuning methods have been unorthodox. I have done some experimentation of re-mapping the VE Table using the 'Calculated VE Pid' from just utilizing the MAF Airflow Calculations. I built my own Spark Tables that utilize up to 44 degrees of Spark Advance at low loads, and rapidly slope to 22 degrees at WOT. MY O2 Switch-Points are all set at 550mv. And while heresy on this forum, I do believe there are times when a simple Injector Flow Rate change might have been the fastest and most effective way to have accomplished the +LTrims I battled with for months.

And to add to the tuning heresy, since my ultimate tuning goals involved running closed-loop, I do not believe that a wideband tuning for non-WOT VE Table mapping was necessary. Like I said, I just reversed the process utilizing MAF Airflow (converting VE Table to MAF) and used closed-loop to 'polish' the VE Table.

So, what I am saying is that I am nervous about publishing my own tuning methods for others to use. I like testing various tuning methods and have used my own time and mileage to figure out what works for me. But, it might not work for everybody.

Not a cop out, I am just being honest. I would be glad to organize my notes and 'publish' my method..but do you see the problem?

If you or others have any comments, feel free to express them. I certainly understand the reluctance of EFILive in publishing their own tuning guide. I have ran into some of the same issues.

Still keeping an open mind. Let me know what you think.

..WeathermanShawn..

[joecar]

Shawn,

Starting a document from scratch is difficult ("where do I start...?")...
but if you publish your notes then other people will find it easier to add to your doc than to start their own.

If you do something in a manner that is "different" then just add an explanation of why... it may be valid under certain conditions, and in some cases valid approximations may save alot of time...

If you do something because it gives you good results, but you don't know the reason, then someone who may know would read this and [hopefully] respond with some knowledge.

Joe

[WeathermanShawn]

Shawn,

Starting a document from scratch is difficult ("where do I start...?")...
but if you publish your notes then other people will find it easier to add to your doc than to start their own.

If you do something in a manner that is "different" then just add an explanation of why... it may be valid under certain conditions, and in some cases valid approximations may save alot of time...

If you do something because it gives you good results, but you don't know the reason, then someone who may know would read this and [hopefully] respond with some knowledge.

Joe

O.K., Joe you are very persuasive (in a good way)!

I will submit some of my notes and theories in the next few days. I have a method for simplifying closed-loop tuning, using MAF Airflow and LTFT's. It allows one to construct a 'matching' VE Table, using the EFILive Pid CALC.VE. As long as you have functional narrow-band O2's, and a wideband for WOT (and verifying stoich) you can construct a VE Table..just using MAF Airflow.

Give me a few days, and I will submit a draft. From there everyone is welcomed to submit their ideas and comments.

Thanks for the encouragement! Perhaps I will just start a new thread.. and see how it goes.

Later.

..WeathermanShawn..

[redhardsupra]

Shawn, send it over, I'd gladly look over some non-traditional approaches.

[ScarabEpic22]

Id like to see your methods as well Shawn, Ive read a bunch of your posts about your methods and would like to learn more.

[WeathermanShawn]

Tuning Notes by WeathermanShawn..

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=12848

[bmax]

Shawn,

Interesting, waiting for more.

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Brad

[redhardsupra]

shawn, i hope i'm reading this wrong: grams per second + celsius = % ?
you might wanna check your units...

[WeathermanShawn]

shawn, i hope i'm reading this wrong: grams per second + celsius = % ?
you might wanna check your units...

Volumetric Efficiency {CALC.VE}

Expression:
% = {SAE.MAF.gps}*({SAE.IAT.C}+273.15)/((displacement()*61.024)*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})* 212544

[joecar]

Shawn,

Yes, please start a new thread, give it a title something like "Tuning Notes by WeathermanShawn".

Thanks for posting...

In science, engineering, and other fields, people get together to bounce their research/methods off of their peers and to share information ("Symposium", "Convention", etc...)... this has several purposes:
- spreads information,
- invites review, comments, corrections, further info,
- makes the originator rethink his work in the context of the 2nd point above and make his contribution better/stronger,
- lunch is included... :D

(ok, we don't have to travel anywhere, we can do it here on the forum).

See, this is how scientists/engineers improve their ideas/methods/etc, rework their models to better reflect reality.

[mr.prick]

Shawn, this may lead to big time DVD sales. ;)

[WeathermanShawn]

Shawn, this may lead to big time DVD sales. ;)

Thanks for the suggestion Mr. Prick!

But, I keeping it all free..:)

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=12848

[ringram]

A year or three ago we had a wiki going. IMO thats the best idea. Just take backups frequently!
But then everyone can chip in.

[joecar]

Idea: let's use WeathermanShawn's new thread to review/discuss the "drafts" and, and then when everyone is happy post the "releases" on the wiki.

[redhardsupra]

i've tried to have a wiki, a forum, and now irc... there's just not enough people willing to put in the work for extensive periods of time. oh well, it's just tuning i guess, nothing important :(

[5.7ute]

i've tried to have a wiki, a forum, and now irc... there's just not enough people willing to put in the work for extensive periods of time. oh well, it's just tuning i guess, nothing important :(

ROFL. Unfortunately life gets in the way at times. I even had to do some work this last week.:grin:

[mr.prick]

A year or three ago we had a wiki going. IMO thats the best idea. Just take backups frequently!
But then everyone can chip in.

Was it this one?
EFILive GM Tuning Resource Wiki (http://gmtuning.info/wiki/index.php/Main_Page)
If so it didn't get much press.

[joecar]

Why don't we continue with it...?

I guess the problem is knowing how organize all the stuff... hmmm, being gearheads means we don't necessarily have that skill...

[joecar]

acomp917 (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?u=10044), welcome to the forum...:cheers:

[ringram]

Yeah I did some of it. I think a few of us chipped in. I think a dude called Gary managed it. He was based in Germany. Im not sure if he still stops by here or not. Good find though, thats the one I meant!

[joecar]

Garry would like us to contribute to the wiki... we aught to do so.

[lilicedout24]

[QUOTE=acomp917;113997]NewB Post,

OK Who did the wiki? I'm new to the forum and would like to thank you/them. I have tuned MANY engines including aftermarket EFI. My basic base of knowledge is reasonably broad, not very in depth.

With that said, I have read many hours of posts while waiting for my EFI live to be delivered. I am REALLY blown away by EFI live capabilities and the ability to offset any information against any other information(calc pid/map/filter...I think).

With that said, I look forward to bothering all of you to no end :) Credit is due! Many of you are very smart and have improved my understanding of the fuel injected internal combustion engine. I hope I will be able to post interesting questions.

i copy that hey i have already bother mr prick lol was up guys get used to this name ill be on alot :shock: no time to sleep

[acomp917]

I think I posted to the wrong area.

Thanks for the welcome "joecar". Other than that, I'm a little lost.

I'm trying to create some interest in the Wiki(elsewhere). Not sure if the(se) responses will make much of a difference.

S

[lilicedout24]

hey i been reading wiki and it helped me so far i spent a few hrs last nitegoing threw it. i dont feel as lost as i did. only problem now when i try to make a pid list and hook up to car nothings not working ill keep reading

[mr.prick]

If you want the scan tool to automatically load a saved set of PIDs:
Edit> Properties> Start Up> PID selection