Still Knockin'

[tatasta]

Well, I am at the end of my rope. Still getting KR while rolling on the throttle all the way to WOT.

For reference, I am using EFI Live and custom operating system COS5.

I can stand on it from a stop or stand on it at a given speed and generally won't get any KR but gradually increasing load (as in the attachment), I get it often.

I dropped the timing values in the high octane spark table by 4-5* and will still get 4* KR. The highest is always 4*.

I have NEVER heard the knock or any type of valvetrain chatter, ever. I have to wonder if it is real or some type of resonance.

I have attached some images to review.

Thanks for any help

[Aloicious]

Well, I am at the end of my rope. Still getting KR while rolling on the throttle all the way to WOT.

For reference, I am using EFI Live and custom operating system COS5.

I can stand on it from a stop or stand on it at a given speed and generally won't get any KR but gradually increasing load (as in the attachment), I get it often.

I dropped the timing values in the high octane spark table by 4-5* and will still get 4* KR. The highest is always 4*.

I have NEVER heard the knock or any type of valvetrain chatter, ever. I have to wonder if it is real or some type of resonance.

I have attached some images to review.

Thanks for any help

I JUST read you post over on LS1tech, heh. do you have that log file you could post up? its kinda hard to tell from those screenshots, but it looks kinda goofy, I wonder if it is a false knock, or bad sensor type problem.

[GAMEOVER]

Have you tried to richen up your AFR @ WOT? Command PE? Tables B3618 & B3647
12.90 AFR is a little lean for my taste....

[tatasta]

Yes Sir,

A couple different logs comin' up!

Thank you!!

The two Version 3 logs are from the tune posted in the original post. The other is from a recent tune.

I feel like I am chasing a ghost. I will get knock with 28* of advance, drop the area where it occurs by 6* and fade it out to -2* in adjacent cells and still get in almost the same amount in the same areas.

Thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

Have you altered your 'Spark IAT table' B5911?

Those are some high IAT's for WOT.

A lot of people will adjust the B6203 & B6207, Knock Attack Rate and Knock Recovery Rate to lessen the usual amount of spark being pulled.

If it is resonance, I would try to find a different stretch of road or track and see if it is just an exhaust pipe banging around. Sometimes you will register knock on a highway ramp that actually had a decline in it, but never will on a flat stretch.

I never had much luck with the 'try higher octane gas' answer. If it is real hot outside, I just do not run as much timing.

[Aloicious]

Have you altered your 'Spark IAT table' B5911? My tune would pull spark with those IAT's. Those are some high IAT's for WOT. It would be interesting to try it in 40F air and see if you still get some knock.

A lot of people will adjust the B6203 & B6207, Knock Attack Rate and Knock Recovery Rate to lessen the usual amount of spark being pulled. Maybe you have already done that.

If it is resonance, I usually try to find a different stretch of road or track and see if it is just an exhaust pipe banging around. Sometimes I would register knock on a highway ramp that actually had a decline in it, but never did on a flat stretch.

I never had much luck with the 'try higher octane gas' answer. If it is real hot outside, I just do not run as much timing. Higher cc heads, just get hot.

Always a tough one to figure out. Hope you find the answer.

..WeathermanShawn..

I just got my internet working again, I'll try to take a look at those logs and see if I can see anything

I have adjusted the knock recovery rate in my tune, this allows it to still pull the needed timing for KR and safety, but it recovers quicker, rather than dragging out the KR longer than needs be. it'll get you back to normal faster but still won't fix the knock itself. I'd say work on eliminating the knock first, then worry about the recovery rate.

[Aloicious]

okay I looked over your logs, and both the newer tune, as well as the other tune you posted in your other thread. I noticed a few things off the bat, first off your new tune spark map doesn't look like you lowered the spark maps much, in fact your new map looks even more agressive in areas than the old one. secondly, your KR max is only 4* when in PE, this means you're maxing out the PE, meaning the PCM may *need* to retard the timing even more, but it isn't allowed to. try this tune out, I lowered your spark map in the problem areas and smoothed it out a bit, I also raised your KR limit to 15* at any point, this should allow you to see ALL the KR that it needs to retard. I also raised your KR recovery rate so that when you DO get KR, it will return to normal faster. from the looks of your log and tune, its really looking like you DO have spark knock to me. so this should help

so load up this tune and do some more logging, and post up your new logs. don't be surprised if you still have some KR, it SHOULD be less than before, but since you were maxed out on the KR previously, there is a little possibility that you could get more.

[tatasta]

Aloicious,

Thank you for working over the tune. I understand what you have done and it certainly makes sense. I know I am always too concerned about pulling timing, thinking that lowering timing will equal lost performance. I simply don't understand the intricacies of these engines yet. It is a bit confusing looking at dozens of different tunes and trying to find the "silver bullet".

Will an LS1 make max HP/Torque at a setting of 20-24* advance at WOT? Obviously there are endless combinations that require different values but should I get "the more the advance, the better the performance" thought out of my head?

Thanks again and I will load this tune in a few days when I am off of work.

Robert

[Aloicious]

Aloicious,

Thank you for working over the tune. I understand what you have done and it certainly makes sense. I know I am always too concerned about pulling timing, thinking that lowering timing will equal lost performance. I simply don't understand the intricacies of these engines yet. It is a bit confusing looking at dozens of different tunes and trying to find the "silver bullet".

Will an LS1 make max HP/Torque at a setting of 20-24* advance at WOT? Obviously there are endless combinations that require different values but should I get "the more the advance, the better the performance" thought out of my head?

Thanks again and I will load this tune in a few days when I am off of work.

Robert

more timing can be better for performance, to a point, but not when you're getting KR. and higher isn't better when its causing problems. knock is bad, if you're getting knock at 24*, or 12* (and its spark related) you need to lower the timing, period. detonation will destroy performance and engines, much more than reducing the timing a few degrees. Ideally you want to get on a dyno and tune the spark there. that tune I posted is just kinda preliminary, if you run it and find the KR is totally gone, rock on, then you can experiment, try lowering the AFR, and increasing the spark a little bit at a time, doing logs in between, when you see ANY KR, back off the timing a little, until its gone, then an extra ~2* for safety.

[WeathermanShawn]

I make more power at 22-24 degrees of timing at WOT, than 27-28 (Dyno Tested).

A lot depends on your Heads, Cam, CR, etc. I was also doubter for a long time than less timing could produce more power. I have made more power gains just keeping AFR from 12.7-12.9 at WOT with zero ping, or knock (unless it is 100F+).

The 22-24 degrees of Timing was still 2-4 degrees less than my knock threshold.

[tatasta]

more timing can be better for performance, to a point, but not when you're getting KR. and higher isn't better when its causing problems. knock is bad, if you're getting knock at 24*, or 12* (and its spark related) you need to lower the timing, period. detonation will destroy performance and engines, much more than reducing the timing a few degrees. Ideally you want to get on a dyno and tune the spark there. that tune I posted is just kinda preliminary, if you run it and find the KR is totally gone, rock on, then you can experiment, try lowering the AFR, and increasing the spark a little bit at a time, doing logs in between, when you see ANY KR, back off the timing a little, until its gone, then an extra ~2* for safety.


If it makes you feel better, I make more power at 22-24 degrees of timing at WOT, than 27-28 (Dyno Tested).

Depending on your Heads, Cam, CR, etc. I was a doubter for a long time than less timing could produce more power.

I have probably made more power gains just keeping AFR from 12.7-12.9 at WOt with zero ping, or knock (unless it is 100F+). F.Y.I., the 22-24 degrees was still 2-4 degrees less than my knock threshold.

Something to think about.

..WeathermanShawn..

Thank you guys. I sure appreciate the help.. I will take the tune that Aloicious provided for me and work from there. EFI Live is great but I can see it can dangerous to stubborn people, like me. I honestly wish that there was a dyno closer to me than 250 miles. Tough to justify that these days.

Two final questions that would really help me out:
1. In OLMAF, I am struggling some to make small adjustments to AFR the WOT area. I am at ~ 13:1 now and want to get to 12.8. B3647? B3618? Or MAF calibration?
2. Other than the ability to pull timing through the tune for N2O, is running a COS worth it in my case?

No more posts from me until I post up a winner.

[Aloicious]

Thank you guys. I sure appreciate the help.. I will take the tune that Aloicious provided for me and work from there. EFI Live is great but I can see it can dangerous to stubborn people, like me. I honestly wish that there was a dyno closer to me than 250 miles. Tough to justify that these days.

Two final questions that would really help me out:
1. In OLMAF, I am struggling some to make small adjustments to AFR the WOT area. I am at ~ 13:1 now and want to get to 12.8. B3647? B3618? Or MAF calibration?
2. Other than the ability to pull timing through the tune for N2O, is running a COS worth it in my case?

No more posts from me until I post up a winner.

Im not at my tuning computer right now so I cant look up those tables, but for WOT, look at your PE mode commanded fuel. that should help out. I use COS3 and love it, mainly for the RPM vs MAP commanded fueling. I love that table. plus now that I'm going boosted soon the COS will come in even more usefull. (BTW I run OLMAF too, and its my daily driver.)

I wish I could dyno too, its a little expenisve for me, I would probably end up using a ton of time on it, I do have a hookup for a good dyno shop about ~60 miles from me, perhaps when I get a roadrunner.

BTW where in NV are you?

[joecar]

To set your AFR look in both B3647 and B3618.

[tatasta]

Im not at my tuning computer right now so I cant look up those tables, but for WOT, look at your PE mode commanded fuel. that should help out. I use COS3 and love it, mainly for the RPM vs MAP commanded fueling. I love that table. plus now that I'm going boosted soon the COS will come in even more usefull. (BTW I run OLMAF too, and its my daily driver.)

I wish I could dyno too, its a little expenisve for me, I would probably end up using a ton of time on it, I do have a hookup for a good dyno shop about ~60 miles from me, perhaps when I get a roadrunner.

BTW where in NV are you?


I live just outside of Elko, NV. About 230 miles from Salt Lake if you are not familiar with the town. Do you ever get over to Nevada?

Thanks

[Aloicious]

I live just outside of Elko, NV. About 230 miles from Salt Lake if you are not familiar with the town. Do you ever get over to Nevada?

Thanks

yeah I grew up in sacramento and we'd drive out to Idaho every summer to visit relatives, I've gone through Elko TONS of times so I'm fairly familiar with the whole carlin/elko/wells/jackpot/wendover areas, we'd always stop for gas at that big flying J on the edge of town by the freeway.. right now I'm just south of SLC, I don't get out to NV much these days, I'm mostly up in Idaho if I go somewhere. actually the Dyno that I have a connection with is up just outside of Logan at Moonlight Diesel.

[tatasta]

I need to get to a dyno and never really knew where to start looking. Logan is not too bad from here. Pretty much SLC, Boise or Reno to find a shop with a dyno. All pretty much equidistant to me. If I get set up to do a dyno tune, could I PM you to get some info?

Thanks for the help. I'm looking forward to loading that tune on Friday. I'll get some logs posted up Friday or Saturday.

[Aloicious]

I need to get to a dyno and never really knew where to start looking. Logan is not too bad from here. Pretty much SLC, Boise or Reno to find a shop with a dyno. All pretty much equidistant to me. If I get set up to do a dyno tune, could I PM you to get some info?

Thanks for the help. I'm looking forward to loading that tune on Friday. I'll get some logs posted up Friday or Saturday.

yeah, shoot me a PM if you'd like, I'm no dyno vet, but I'll try to help if I can. let us know about that tune once you get a chance to work on it.

[tatasta]

Will do.

[tatasta]

Hey,

Well, I loaded up the tune that Aloicious put together for me and the car ran very well on it. The main purpose of the tune was to help me find the cause of my KR. I would seldom get KR when going WOT off the line or standing on it. Normally, I get it when rolling on the throttle and causing a downshift, but not at WOT. Before this tune I could never get rid of it, regardless of how much I dropped the timing in the problem area.

So, out of the kindness of his heart, Aloicious put a tune together to help me out. The tune ran very well but the KR still happens in the same areas. More and more, I am thinking that it is a false knock. It always occurs at the 3>2 shift. I know my relocated torque arm slaps hard going into a load.

I attached some images of KR, the first log of the tune and the tune itself.

Comments welcome.

Thanks

[joecar]

What was the change in the tune...?

[Aloicious]

Hey,

Well, I loaded up the tune that Aloicious put together for me and the car ran very well on it. The main purpose of the tune was to help me find the cause of my KR. I would seldom get KR when going WOT off the line or standing on it. Normally, I get it when rolling on the throttle and causing a downshift, but not at WOT. Before this tune I could never get rid of it, regardless of how much I dropped the timing in the problem area.

So, out of the kindness of his heart, Aloicious put a tune together to help me out. The tune ran very well but the KR still happens in the same areas. More and more, I am thinking that it is a false knock. It always occurs at the 3>2 shift. I know my relocated torque arm slaps hard going into a load.

I attached some images of KR, the first log of the tune and the tune itself.

Comments welcome.

Thanks

you can also see that since I raised the KR limit from 4* to 15*, there are times you're getting WAY more knock than the 4* you were getting earlier. so now, what I would do, is go extreme on it, take those areas that you're getting the knock (looks like up to 11ish* in some places) and lower the spark map 11*+ and do some more logs, also try making the mixture richer too. if you lower them THAT much AND increase fuel, and if you're still getting the same amount of KR, I'd say its probably not spark/fuel related, and false knock or a bad sensor may be the culprit. but you really want to rule out spark or AFR as the cause first. make absolutely sure it is not a dangerous or problematic condition first before jumping to false knock. but if you lower the timing and richen up the mixture and it DOES dramatically reduces the KR, or eliminates it, then you can rule out false knock.

also something I noticed is your knock sensitivity settings are quite a bit different than the 2002 OS, I'm guessing it is from your PCM swap and the table migration but in looking at the 98-99 knock tables, they're quite a bit different, even the tables that are offered are different. I wonder if you should transfer the knock sensitivity tables to what the 2002 OS has and if that would make a difference. hopefully someone with more experience with setups simmilar to yours will chime in.

[Aloicious]

What was the change in the tune...?

I lowered the spark maps in the troubled areas, increased the KR limit, thats basically it. you can see the difference in KR from the raised limit alone. he had it at 4* max, i set it at 15* so we could see what the PCM was trying to pull since he was maxing out on the 4*.

edit- I also increased the KR recovery rate

[tatasta]

Here's the new tune that I intend to run. The spark has been edited based on the KR map and AFR is dropped to 12.2:1.

We'll see how it works. The worst area that KR was happening is lower by a total of 18 or so degrees from my original tune (before Aloicious worked it over the first time).

I will post up some logs soon.

Thanks

[Aloicious]

Here's the new tune that I intend to run. The spark has been edited based on the KR map and AFR is dropped to 12.2:1.

We'll see how it works. The worst area that KR was happening is lower by a total of 18 or so degrees from my original tune (before Aloicious worked it over the first time).

I will post up some logs soon.

Thanks

I can't look at the tune, I'm at work, but if its 18* less than what I saw, and you STILL get the same knock, then I'd say you could likely rule out actual spark related knock and look into stuff like false knock. I'm also curious about the knock sensitivity tables too. but we can look at that after you try this new tune.

[tatasta]

Here are some items from the last run. More spark pulled from Aloicious' initial tune. Same results. Up to 6+ degrees of retard mainly across the 4800 rpm row. The only real change I have seen is a 0.7 second slower 0-60 time.

On a good note, I do have my actual AFR matching commanded pretty well. Still a bit of tweaking to do in the cruise/idle areas. The cars starts easier, runs smoother for the most part and seems to have a bit better overall drivability. Thanks to all of you for all of that.

Bob

[Aloicious]

Here are some items from the last run. More spark pulled from Aloicious' initial tune. Same results. Up to 6+ degrees of retard mainly across the 4800 rpm row. The only real change I have seen is a 0.7 second slower 0-60 time.

On a good note, I do have my actual AFR matching commanded pretty well. Still a bit of tweaking to do in the cruise/idle areas. The cars starts easier, runs smoother for the most part and seems to have a bit better overall drivability. Thanks to all of you for all of that.

Bob

I'll have to get my laptop and check out your log and tune, but I agree, if you were getting 6ish KR with my tune, then that spark map you posted is at least 8* lower than my version, and you're still getting 6ish degrees of KR, somethings up thats not spark related. I'll take a look tonight and see whats going on.

[joecar]

If you get knock sufficiently "large/intense" to cause that much KR I would imagine it would be clearly audible... can you actually hear it...?

[Aloicious]

If you get knock sufficiently "large/intense" to cause that much KR I would imagine it would be clearly audible... can you actually hear it...?

I agree.

[tatasta]

If you get knock sufficiently "large/intense" to cause that much KR I would imagine it would be clearly audible... can you actually hear it...?


I agree.


No, I have never heard my car knock. I know what it sounds like and am confident it is not happening.

Since it shows up mainly at one rpm range (~4800 rpm), would resonace make sense or would it be more likely that a part is failing?

Thanks

[joecar]

Resonance from valvetrain noise, piston slap, headers banging frame, loose bolts on accessories or motor mounts.

[joecar]

An interesting thread regarding knock... read carefully:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagnostics-tuning/212614-how-much-timing-you-running-wot.html

[tatasta]

Hello,

I am a bit embarrassed about asking this BUT, what would the correct way to tie into the PCM to enable the nitrous fueling and timing options on my COS5?

The attached image is basically the wiring I use for my N2O. To use the arming switch to enable A0016, could someone explain the basic wiring to add a relay or tap into the existing setup???.....

For some reason, I just can't get my head around this. :help2:

Thank you!