Long Term fuel Trims..

[waterbug1999]

I know that -5% to 0% is ideal.. Is this only under a load, idle, hwy speed, etc?

Im going to pay for some dyno time to hit all the cells for the mainVE table, just wanting to see how close I can get the LTFT's to 0 before hand as thats whay im suppose to do right?

[mr.prick]

When commanded is stoich. {B3601}
If LTFTs are greater than 0% when PE kicks in,
AFR will most likely be richer than you want and they will stay positive.
When PE is on LTFTs should be 0%.

[waterbug1999]

When I am cruising, its -.8 & -6.. When I let off the gas, they go to -12 & -12. Is that ok or what steps should I try to get them better?

Ive always had a problem with the cars RPM dropping (and sometimes dieing) after I let off the gas rather it be at a stop light or after a burnout at the drag strip. IT will find its idle but it takes a ~6 secounds if it didnt die.

[mr.prick]

See the link at the bottom of my sig. :)

[waterbug1999]

See the link at the bottom of my sig. :)

Ive been trying to understand it, but its tough to go step by step... Where are you making the PHP CODEs at in EFILive? I sat here yesterday with my scan tool open trying and I cant find anything close like that you got.


Create CALC.PID

PHP Code:
#Units Low High Fmt Expression
#------------ ------ ------ ---- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
*CLC-00-010
factor 0.0 1.4 0.2 "({SAE.LONGFT1}+{SAE.LONGFT2})/2/100+1"

#Code PRN SLOT Units System Description
#---------------- ---- ------------ --------- ---------- -------------
CALC.LTFTBEN F010 CLC-00-010 factor O2-Wide "LTFT BEN"



Where do you set up / make this?






1. Set up Closed Loop Speed Density (no DFCO)
What map # is NO DFCO so I wont ask "is this right"?

2. Set the O2 switch point {B4105} to 450.0mV
I understand.

3. DO NOT DISABLE PE
Dont know how you would do that.


Log PIDs (minimum)
CALC.LTFTBEN
GM.AFR
GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA
GM.KR
SAE.ECT
SAE.IAT
SAE.LONGFT1
SAE.LONGFT2
SAE.MAP
SAE.RPM
SAE.SPARKADV
SAE.TP
Add relevant WBO2 PIDs


I can select PID's, good to go there.



Filter out:
SAE.TP.% changing more than 5% 100ms OR
GM.AFR.:1 is less than {B3601}

Paste LTFTBEN to {B0101}

Dont you need to make some map/bens like I did in the autoVE part for this filter?


Enable the edit mask and shield the cells changed by LTFTBEN

I dont understand what this means or where edit maks/shiled are?


Then for WOT/PE mode filter out:
SAE.TP.% changing more than 5% 100ms OR
GM.AFR.:1 is greater than 14.62 or just under {B3601} OR
CALC.LTFTBEN is not equal to 1.00
Paste BEN to {B0101}


Dont you need to make some map/bens like I did in the autoVE part for this filter?


Reflash and retset LTFTs.

I can do this.


Notes:
1. Tuning with LTFTs will take a little more time because a higher cell count
is need for the PCM to learn LTFTs.

O.k...


2. LTFTs between 0% and -5% are the target but 0% to -3% is obtainable.

O.k..



3. Don't alter cells where average LTFTs* are between 0% to -3%.

Im assuming this applies in the maps after data logging.



4. You want LTFTs to be 0% or negative before entering PE.

What exactly is PE so so Ill know not to put a 0 in.

[mr.prick]

Where do you set up / make this?The calc.pids.txt is located in
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration


Dont you need to make some map/bens like I did in the autoVE part for this filter?Yes, use the LTFTBEN PID for data and the row and column will be MAP and RPM.


I dont understand what this means or where edit maks/shiled are?The edit mask is not mandatory but it makes things easier, it keeps selected cells from being altered until you turn it off or deselect cells you want to edit.
i.e. you won't be able to paste over the cells that don't need to be changed, also you could just copy with labels and paste with labels manually.
See this post for the location of the edit mask icon. (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=9896)


Dont you need to make some map/bens like I did in the autoVE part for this filter?I'm not sure what you mean by this but you don't need a separate map for a different filter, just make another filter and toggle between your filter with the filter properties.


Don't alter cells where average LTFTs* are between 0% to -3%.Once you make enough adjustments, LTFTs will be consistent and you won't need to
alter them, 0% to -5% is fine.


What exactly is PE so so Ill know not to put a 0 in.
PE = Power Enrichment {B3618} & {B3616}
Commanded AFR will be lower than stoich {B3601} when PE is on.
If LTFTs are positive when PE comes on you will most likely be overly rich.
The WOT/PE filter will exclude positive LTFTs during PE so you wont need to worry about that.

Her's the calc.pid.txt with LTFT average and the LTFTBEN PIDs,
compare it to your calc.pids.txt to see how to format it or just use it if you don't have any calc.pids.
5899
Do all this in Closed Loop Speed Density (can be used w/MAF as well),
see the tutorial for how to set CLSD up.

[waterbug1999]

The calc.pids.txt is located in
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration

Oh I see, I just copy and pasted it... And I see the CALC.PID text file but I dont see the Average LTFT PID text file?

Yes, use the LTFTBEN PID for data and the row and column will be MAP and RPM.

Since "A" & "B" are used for the VE Table, can I just use the next letter? Also, I see it has bank 1 and bank 2? Doest it matter?

[mr.prick]

Oh I see, I just copy and pasted it... And I see the CALC.PID text file but I dont see the Average LTFT PID text file?
They are both on the .txt


Since "A" & "B" are used for the VE Table, can I just use the next letter? Also, I see it has bank 1 and bank 2? Doest it matter?

Both PIDs are for bank1 & bank2 average.
The LTFT Average PID is for reference for using the edit mask,
you will multiply with LTFTBEN.
The PCM uses the average for both banks, no need for a map for each bank.
I fill A-J with maps myself.

[waterbug1999]

They are both on the .txt

Alls I have is the CALC_PID. (see attachment)


Both PIDs are for bank1 & bank2 average.

What I meant was when setting up the map properties.. I go to data and I have LTFT bank 1(%) and LTFT bank 2 (%).. Which ones do I choose? (see the 2nd attachment)

[mr.prick]

You choose one of the LTFT PIDs,
they both need SAE.LONGFT1 & SAE.LONGFT2 to be selected.
In the map data tab choose CALC.LTFT or CALC.LTFTBEN.
5903

[waterbug1999]

You choose one of the LTFT PIDs,

Are you talking in the PIDS (F8) or in the MAP properties?

they both need SAE.LONGFT1 & SAE.LONGFT2 to be selected.

Where are you talking about??

In the map data tab choose CALC.LTFT or CALC.LTFTBEN.

There isnt either one.. (look at the attacment)

Im at work and cant unzip the file.

[mr.prick]

SAE.LONGFT1 & SAE.LONGFT2 will need to be selected under the PIDs tab
for the LTFT PIDs to be valid, then select the LTFT PIDs on the PIDs tab.
Use the maps in post #10
(http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=99712&postcount=10)

[waterbug1999]

ok.. im confused as shit!

they both need SAE.LONGFT1 & SAE.LONGFT2 to be selected.

Those PID's are selected under F8.

In the map data tab choose CALC.LTFT or CALC.LTFTBEN.

Its not there.

What am I suppose to do with this?

[waterbug1999]

Log PIDs (minimum)
CALC.LTFTBEN
GM.AFR
GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA
GM.KR
SAE.ECT
SAE.IAT
SAE.LONGFT1
SAE.LONGFT2
SAE.MAP
SAE.RPM
SAE.SPARKADV
SAE.TP
Add relevant WBO2 PIDs


Not there.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/Untitled1.jpg

[waterbug1999]

ok.. i think I know what you are saying.

Here is the user config. I added the two, but leve it like this?

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/pids.jpg

Here are the two.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/ltft-1.jpg

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/ltftben.jpg

I must have done something wrong, I dont see the CALC.LTFT or CALC.LTFTBEN pids under the F8 drop dpwn menu.

[mr.prick]

The name isn't right, it should be calc_pids.txt
Either edit your original calc_pids by merging it the ones I posted or overwrite it.

[waterbug1999]

The name isn't right, it should be calc_pids.txt
Either edit your original calc_pids by merging it the ones I posted or overwrite it.

Ok.. I just changed it and it shows up in the PID selection and in the maps.... I made this one, good eh?


http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/ltftben1.jpg

[mr.prick]

WTF?
it looks like the table is inverted in that map. :Eyecrazy:
Extract the maps in post #10 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=99712&postcount=10) to
C:\Documents and Settings\My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\Maps
then load them.

[waterbug1999]

WTF?
it looks like the table is inverted in that map. :Eyecrazy:
Extract the maps in post #10 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=99712&postcount=10) to
C:\Documents and Settings\My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\Maps
then load them.

I saw that too.. Its becuase I mixed the column and rows up when I made it.

[mr.prick]

So everything is good?

[waterbug1999]

So everything is good?

There were two maps correct?? I was able to clear the one I goofed up on and then I did what you said and I was able to pull the LTFTBEN.MAP up. The other one, LTFT.MAP I see it but it wont come up.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/lltftben.jpg

[mr.prick]

The names are similar and the row and column PIDs are the same, the data PID
and the title are the only things that are different.
Check each maps properties to make sure you are not confusing the two for each other.
I just down loaded the .zip and loaded each map and they are fine.

As long as SAE.ECT, SAE.LONGFT1, SAE.LONGFT2, SAE.MAP, SAE.RPM & SAE.TP
are logged you can add CALC.LTFT & CALC.LTFTBEN after the log is made,
but it is easier to select them all and then log.

[waterbug1999]

I double checked, all the PIDS are selected..

I click on the highlighted one and nothing happends. The 1st one on the list is the one ffrom above.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/Untitled-2.jpg

[mr.prick]

I guess try making one, it is the same as the other except for the data.

[waterbug1999]

This would be it right??

After I selected it and nothing came up/happened, I went to the "edit map" (the finger pointing at the paper) and it was there. I just had to select the LIFTBEN in the data.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/average-1.jpg

[mr.prick]

That's the one that will give you the multiplier.

[waterbug1999]

That's the one that will give you the multiplier.

Those two are the only ones I need right? Im just trying to take it step by step here..

It took this much just to get the maps right. lol

[mr.prick]

CALC.LTFTBEN is the multiplier, CALC.LTFT if for reference.
When CALC.LTFT is 0% to -5% in cells consistently you will not have to
change those cells.
LTFTBEN 1.00 to 0.95 = LTFT 0% to -5%
I don't change cells in which LTFTBEN is 1.00 to .975
Hide cells with a count less than 10. (minimum)

[waterbug1999]

CALC.LTFTBEN is the multiplier, CALC.LTFT if for reference.
When CALC.LTFT is 0% to -5% in cells consistently you will not have to
change those cells.
LTFTBEN 1.00 to 0.95 = LTFT 0% to -5%
I don't change cells in which LTFTBEN is 1.00 to .975
Hide cells with a count less than 10. (minimum)

I only have the CALC.LTFTBEN.. I thought I had the other one but I just clicked on the (0) LTFT BEN (factor) in the parameter so its prolly the same one under "C" and "D".. I dont know how I would make the one.

How do I get the CALC.LTFT pid??.. I tried doing the copy and paste thing from your sig but its leading me to no where as usual.

[mr.prick]

Both PIDs are under fuel and calculated in the system drop down box of the PIDs tab. (F8)
LTFT Average and LTFTBEN%

[waterbug1999]

Both PIDs are under fuel and calculated in the system drop down box of the PIDs tab. (F8)
LTFT Average and LTFTBEN%

I have the LTFTBEN but are you talking about bank 1 and bank 2 being averaged together somehow? In the maps under parameter, ther eis nothing other then the LTFT BEN.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/average-2.jpg

[mr.prick]

Try downloading it again
calc_pids(LTFT).txt (http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5899&d=1248402890)

It should be there or did you edit your original calc_pids.txt?

[waterbug1999]

Try downloading it again
calc_pids(LTFT).txt (http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5899&d=1248402890)

It should be there or did you edit your original calc_pids.txt?

Here is what my CALC_PIDS in my user config looks like.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/pids-1.jpg



Where do I copy that too?? I went to put it in the MAPS but there was one there and I didnt want to replace it if you didnt say to.

[mr.prick]

You are missing it.
Since you don't have any other calc.pids, download it again and save as calc_pids.txt
in C:\Documents and Settings\My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration
Then it will be available.

[waterbug1999]

You are missing it.
Since you don't have any other calc.pids, download it again and save as calc_pids.txt
in C:\Documents and Settings\My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration
Then it will be available.

Ok.. I went in the user config and delete the other calc_pids that I had from trying last night, I replaced it with what you just sent over. Yea, I see it.

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/both.jpg

And the two MAPS, just to make sure are the "parameters" suupose to be the same?

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/longterm.jpg

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/llongterm.jpg

[waterbug1999]

Thanks for helping and not giving up with me.

[mr.prick]

Now it's good?

[waterbug1999]

Now it's good?

LOL.. Ive never done it before, so I dont know. You can tell i am horrible at figureing this kind of stuff out. Ill try and log tomorrow, once I get some data im sure ill be back on here wondering what to do with it. I know its like what I did when I did the AutoVE Tuning.

So, before I do more autoVE tuning, I should get these LTFT down as low to 0% as possible right? Then, once these are tamed I can go back and AutoVE Tune?

[waterbug1999]

so, got the maps sorted out finally..

Just to make sure,

1. Set up Closed Loop Speed Density (no DFCO)

{B3313} I should set for 122*c

2. Set the O2 switch point {B4105} to 450.0mV

No problem there.

So, just set the filters up and im good to go for some logging right?

[mr.prick]

So, before I do more autoVE tuning, I should get these LTFT down as low to 0% as possible right? Then, once these are tamed I can go back and AutoVE Tune?
No.
There is no need to go back to OLSD, just make sure you use both filters.
One is for non PE (cruise, idle) the other is for PE mode (WOT)


so, got the maps sorted out finally..
Just to make sure,

1. Set up Closed Loop Speed Density (no DFCO)

{B3313} I should set for 122*c

140°C or 284°F


So, just set the filters up and im good to go for some logging right?

Yes.
FYI

Any cal.pid can be added after the log is saved as long as the dependent pids are selected.

[waterbug1999]

No.
There is no need to go back to OLSD, just make sure you use both filters.
One is for non PE (cruise, idle) the other is for PE mode (WOT)

I have thise in both filters. I was under the assumption that I had to get my fuel trims low, then redo the mainVe table and stay in speed density?

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt85/waterbug199/cells.jpg

But I dont understand what you mean by the 2nd part of the filtering and where i am suppose to put it if there is all ready a filter in place:

Enable the edit mask and shield the cells changed by LTFTBEN.

Then for WOT/PE mode filter out:
SAE.TP.% changing more than 5% 100ms OR
GM.AFR.:1 is greater than 14.62 or just under {B3601} OR
CALC.LTFTBEN is not equal to 1.00 OR
SAE.ECT.F is less than 180°F
Paste BEN to {B0101

[mr.prick]

I have thise in both filters. I was under the assumption that I had to get my fuel trims low, then redo the mainVe table and stay in speed density?
If done right this will get LTFTs where they should be, there will be no need to redo VE.


But I dont understand what you mean by the 2nd part of the filtering and where i am suppose to put it if there is all ready a filter in place
The first filter will make adjustments where LTFTs are high or low.
The second filter will adjust where LTFTs should be off, 0%(PE).

The AutoVE tutorial tells you to first tune in OLSD,
then enable CLSD to check LTFTs are between 0% to -5%.
I found this will not be the case, LTFTs will be highly positive and WOT will be rich
because of high LTFTs.

[joecar]

...

But I dont understand what you mean by the 2nd part of the filtering and where i am suppose to put it if there is all ready a filter in place:

Enable the edit mask and shield the cells changed by LTFTBEN.

Then for WOT/PE mode filter out:
SAE.TP.% changing more than 5% 100ms OR
GM.AFR.:1 is greater than 14.62 or just under {B3601} OR
CALC.LTFTBEN is not equal to 1.00 OR
SAE.ECT.F is less than 180°F
Paste BEN to {B0101

Jody,

Create a new filter with those conditions... I believe this is what Mr.Prick has done (I've been busy this last week, so I'll follow along as best as I can...).

Joe

[waterbug1999]

Jody,

Create a new filter with those conditions... I believe this is what Mr.Prick has done (I've been busy this last week, so I'll follow along as best as I can...).

Joe

Im just confused.. The car needs a complete tune pretty much, so I followed the AutoVE Tutorial which is a speed density (I get confused with OL and CL). The guys i have talked with say when the temps change the AF barely moves with a SD tune so i am just going to keep trying with the tutorial. (us northern folks only drive the cars in the summer)

I thought that I had to get my LTFT's down with in the -3% to 0 range so thats why i started this thread. But, Im thinking this is a different way to tune is it not?

I just put a new WB02 in along with a normal 02 in on that side, I plan on reseting the LTFT's and go for a spin. If all good I am going to rent some dyno time to get the MainVE tables down by following the tutorial again. I just want to find the best way to tune the car and stick with it. I just pulled the MAF so I am assuming I will need new VE tables now that its better airflow now.

Whats the easiest way and still get max performance?

[mr.prick]

LTFTs are for Closed Loop SD or w/MAF.
AutoVE in OLSD is pointless if you later enable LTFTs,
I already explained why.

[waterbug1999]

LTFTs are for Closed Loop SD or w/MAF.
AutoVE in OLSD is pointless if you later enable LTFTs,
I already explained why.

And thats what I am sticking with, I followed the tutorial. I just reset LTFT's and they are at 4.7 and -3.8, thats ideling.

[mr.prick]

You need to log more than idle.
I imagine they will be all over the place for the first 2 logs.

[waterbug1999]

You need to log more than idle.
I imagine they will be all over the place for the first 2 logs.

well.. I didnt set the car up for the test, wanted to make sure the WB02 was working right to make sure it didnt flake out like it did last time. I also replaced the 02 on the passenger side as well. This is the SD tune I had in from last week after I did the AutoVe tutorial. Only thing different is I took out the MAF completely and put a hose connecting the lid to the TB.

AF was pretty good at WOT, maybe a tad rich but it stayed around the commanded AF for the most part. Im thinking about just upping the commanded AF to 12.85 or so from 80KPA on up, will doing that lean me out a little at WOT?

Here is the log, kind of big but cant really stop in while driving.

[mr.prick]

Your LTFTs for the most part look pretty good,
they are slightly positive just before PE kicks on,
as a result LTFTs are active in the WOT area and you were still a little lean.
Get LTFTs 0% or less before commanded is lower than stoich (PE)

PE AFR can be changed in {B3618}.

You got some KR but you can't see where it's at because you did not select the right PID to track it in SD.
Use these and add any others you need or want up to 24 channels.
5912

Another thing to think about is battery voltage at high RPM,
I had a worn out tensioner and because battery voltage dropped at lower MANVAC
the fuel injector offsets were higher {B3701}, this made fuel inconsistent and rich at high RPM.
A new tensioner solved this problem.

[waterbug1999]

Your LTFTs for the most part look pretty good,
they are slightly positive just before PE kicks on,
as a result LTFTs are active in the WOT area and you were still a little lean.
Get LTFTs 0% or less before commanded is lower than stoich (PE)

PE AFR can be changed in {B3618}.

You got some KR but you can't see where it's at because you did not select the right PID to track it in SD.
Use these and add any others you need or want up to 24 channels.
5912

Another thing to think about is battery voltage at high RPM,
I had a worn out tensioner and because battery voltage dropped at lower MANVAC
the fuel injector offsets were higher {B3701}, this made fuel inconsistent and rich at high RPM.
A new tensioner solved this problem.


That KR has been there ever since my H/C set up. I tried 102 octane and knocked still was the same.

[mr.prick]

Subtract 30% from {B6203} stock values.
Increase {B6207} 50% from stock values.
Log and subtract the KR from both spark tables (they should match).
Be sure to select GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA for SD.

[waterbug1999]

Subtract 30% from {B6203} stock values.
Increase {B6207} 50% from stock values.
Log and subtract the KR from both spark tables (they should match).
Be sure to select GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA for SD.

ill go ahead and try this.. But, I have no idea what my stock values were or what they were set at.

[mr.prick]

You can get a stock tune from EFILive Tune File Repository - Stock Tunes (http://holdencrazy.com/EFILive/stockTunes.php)