Correct IFR tables for LS3/LS7 injectors in Gen III

[SweetS10V8]

I have an 04 Silverado PCM and Ive swapped LS3 heads, intake, and injectors on my 6.0L (LQ9).

Ive been doing some AutoVE tuning just to get the hang of things. Ive got that down and my LTFT are 0-3% almost all the time.

Now I want to stop practicing and do it right, Ive read that its best to use a GM injector because GM did all the work with ALL the other setting besides flow rate. So I chose a stock injector specifically for that reason. I thought it would just be a "copy and paste" all of the tables, but they do not line up at all and some tables just dont exist. Im assuming its since the LS3 and LS7 cars use a different PCM.

How do I make sure my IFR tables are correct? Ive found stock tunes for LS3 and LS7 Vettes on holdencrazy but dont have the knowledge to swap/convert everything.

[SweetS10V8]

http://inlinethumb33.webshots.com/44512/2324981190060344825S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2324981190060344825xSTgtF)


http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/43815/2595555370060344825S600x600Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2595555370060344825hKszYs)

I used the spreadsheet I found on here to get my numbers in my tune. I just told the spreadsheet I had 41lb/hr injectors and copied and pasted the table.

[dfe1]

I have an 04 Silverado PCM and Ive swapped LS3 heads, intake, and injectors on my 6.0L (LQ9).

How do I make sure my IFR tables are correct? Ive found stock tunes for LS3 and LS7 Vettes on holdencrazy but dont have the knowledge to swap/convert everything.
The LS3/LS7 injectors are flow rated at 4-bar, the same as LS1/LS2 injectors. All you need to do is use the values in a file from a vehicle that uses the injectors you've selected. Couple of suggestions-- make sure the flow units are the same in both files-- either Imperial or metric, keep in mid that the IFR tables in Gen4 ECMs are referenced to "Delta MAP"-- the difference between Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) and fuel rail pressure. and-modified fuel system pressure. A Delta MAP of 400 kPa equates to 4bar of fuel pressure and 0 manifold vacuum so the value at 400kPa in a Gen4 file equate to the value at 0 in a Gen3 file. Note the flow rate table in both files is B4001.

[SweetS10V8]

All you need to do is use the values in a file from a vehicle that uses the injectors you've selected.
That was the plan until nothing matched up. Thats why I posted the differences under my injector folders in my tune ('04 Silverado) and the stock tune ('08 Vette) which has the exact injectors Im using.

keep in mid that the IFR tables in Gen4 ECMs are referenced to "Delta MAP"-- the difference between Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) and fuel rail pressure. and-modified fuel system pressure. A Delta MAP of 400 kPa equates to 4bar of fuel pressure and 0 manifold vacuum so the value at 400kPa in a Gen4 file equate to the value at 0 in a Gen3 file. Note the flow rate table in both files is B4001.So i400kpa in gen IV = 0 in gen III? Thats great, but the helps me fill in one single input. How do I convert the rest?

What about the rest of my inputs under my injector file that dont line up with anyhting from the tune that uses the injectors Im running?

[Gelf VXR]

That was the plan until nothing matched up. Thats why I posted the differences under my injector folders in my tune ('04 Silverado) and the stock tune ('08 Vette) which has the exact injectors Im using.
So i400kpa in gen IV = 0 in gen III? Thats great, but the helps me fill in one single input. How do I convert the rest?

What about the rest of my inputs under my injector file that dont line up with anyhting from the tune that uses the injectors Im running?

Ive just done this


http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=11878

[joecar]

Expanding on what dfe1 said:

GenIII:
pressure difference across injector = FP + MANVAC
so then: IFR = R0 * sqrt((FP + MANVAC) / P0)
where: FP = fuel rail pressure = 58 psi = 4 bar = 400 kPa

GenIV:
pressure difference across injector = DELTAMAP
so then: IFR = R0 * sqrt(DELTAMAP / P0)
This is what Gelf did using the spreadsheet.

:)

[dfe1]

That was the plan until nothing matched up. Thats why I posted the differences under my injector folders in my tune ('04 Silverado) and the stock tune ('08 Vette) which has the exact injectors Im using.

Things aren't going to match up exactly because, among other things, the voltage offsets are different between LS1 and LS3/LS7 style injectors. Don't worry about every number being exactly what you think it should. There are a number of factors that come into play, not the least of which is that even in a bone stock LS3 or LS7, the fuel trims are likely to be off a good bit. I can't remember the last time I saw a stock tune with long term trims that were consistently in the 0 to -5% range.

[joecar]

Expanding on what dfe1 said:

GenIII:
pressure difference across injector = FP + MANVAC
so then: IFR = R0 * sqrt((FP + MANVAC) / P0)
where: FP = fuel rail pressure = 58 psi = 4 bar = 400 kPa

GenIV:
pressure difference across injector = DELTAMAP
so then: IFR = R0 * sqrt(DELTAMAP / P0)
This is what Gelf did using the spreadsheet.

:)
So it seems that DELTAMAP is the same as FP + MANVAC... they are both the pressure difference across any one injector.

This can be used to convert the vertical axises between the GenIV and GenIII B4001 tables...

OEM stock value of FP is 4 bar (58 psi, 400kPa):



MANVAC MANVAC+FP
[kPa] [kPa]
0 400 <--- WOT
10 410
20 420
30 430
40 440
50 450
60 460
70 470 <--- idle (small cam)
80 480
I need a sanity check, does that make any sense...?


So, in other words:
the GenIV B4001 cells between DELTAMAP 400 and 480 [kPa] correspond to
the GenIII B4001 cells between MANVAC 0 and 80 [kPa].


See the highlighted cells in the attached ZR1/LS9 B4001 table.

[joecar]

Same with GenIV B1210 --> GenIII B3701... copy the slice ranging 400-480 kPa, and interpolate between missing cells.

The other injector tables can be matched up by their name and/or description.

[5.7ute]

So it seems that DELTAMAP is the same as FP + MANVAC... they are both the pressure difference across any one injector.

This can be used to convert the vertical axises between the GenIV and GenIII B4001 tables...

OEM stock value of FP is 4 bar (58 psi, 400kPa):



MANVAC MANVAC+FP
[kPa] [kPa]
0 400 <--- WOT
10 410
20 420
30 430
40 440
50 450
60 460
70 470 <--- idle (small cam)
80 480[FONT=Courier New]
I need a sanity check, does that make any sense...?




Consider yourself sane. lol.

[joecar]

Thanks Mick, I appreciate a second set of eyes... :cheers:

[dfe1]

Consider yourself sane. lol.
I don't know, seems to be that's reaching a bit. The fact that Joecar can figure out these tables doesn't necessarily imply he's sane. After all, like the rest of us, he spends entirely too much time messing with cars.

I think part of the challenge to understanding these tables is the fact that almost every other manifold-oriented parameter is referenced to manifold pressure, as opposed to vacuum. One is simply the inverse of the other, but sometimes switching back and forth between two perspectives can be confusing. Back in the day, the common reference was manifold vacuum expressed as inches of Mercury. People who used to work with carburetors had to make the transition from thinking in terms of vacuum in inches of mercury to manifold pressure expressed in kPa. I've always found it easier to work with the terms of the relevant measurement units as opposed to trying to convert from one to another. You can't really get a handle on things until you learn to think in the units you're using.

[jfpilla]

Same result use calculator.

[joecar]

Hi Joe,

My understanding is that they wanted to lift the OEM injector tables, but they didn't fit.

You have a good point... either way they should still do a sanity check using the spreadsheet IFR calculator.

Cheers
Joe
:^)

[joecar]

lol... my definition of sane is when your math agrees with your measurement, then you're happy...:cheers:

edit: ... regardless of your actual mental state :rotflmao:

[jfpilla]

Hey Joe,
I was using the same idea that you pointed out by getting the IFR values between 400 to 480 to correspond to 0 to 80. There are 6 steps in the LS7 table from 400 to 480 and 17 steps from 0 to 80 in my LS1 table. The calculator seemed like an easy solution.

[joecar]

Hey Joe,
I was using the same idea that you pointed out by getting the IFR values between 400 to 480 to correspond to 0 to 80. There are 6 steps in the LS7 table from 400 to 480 and 17 steps from 0 to 80 in my LS1 table. The calculator seemed like an easy solution.That solves the problem of how to interpolate the missing steps... good thinking...:cheers:

[WHYTRYZ06]

ok, what about the voltage offsets?

[joecar]

For voltage offsets, copy this slice from LS9:B1210 to LS1:B3701.

The DELTAMAP slice 400-480kPa in LS9:B1210 is the MANVAC range 0-80kPa in LS1:B3701.

You have to copy each cell one at a time, matching up the row and column labels...
do copy-with-labels from B1210 and paste into a spreedsheet,
then edit spreadsheet row/col labels to match B3701 (see below),
also interpolate the in-between cells,
then paste-with-labels the spreadsheet into B3701.

to match the rows, subtract 400 from DELTAMAP to get MANVAC... you will need to round to nearest 5...
i.e.
400 -> 0
416 -> 15
432 -> 30
448 -> 50
464 -> 65
480 -> 80

[WHYTRYZ06]

joe u are something else :) ill call u on monday...

thanks again for everyone's help

Oh one other thing...how do u make a spread sheet to get the missing units? Ive never made a spread sheet... excel, i guess? ive never used MS excel...lol, mabe someone could make if for us? lol HINT HINT...:)

thanks again...

[joecar]

Ok, thanks, no worries, sometime in afternoon will be fine...:cheers:

[SweetS10V8]

I found an actual spreadsheet on HP Tuners forums, although their X and Y axis is reversed, but thats easily fixed with a few clicks in Excel.

Ill post it when I get it fixed for EFILive.

It contains copy and paste for;

B3701 Injector Pulse width Voltage Adjustment
B4001 Injector Flow Rate
B4003 Minimum Injector Pulse Width
B4005 Small Pulse Adjust

Edit: thanks for fixing the misspelling on the title.....it bugged the crap out of me.

[WHYTRYZ06]

I found an actual spreadsheet on HP Tuners forums, although their X and Y axis is reversed, but thats easily fixed with a few clicks in Excel.

Ill post it when I get it fixed for EFILive.

It contains copy and paste for;

B3701 Injector Pulse width Voltage Adjustment
B4001 Injector Flow Rate
B4003 Minimum Injector Pulse Width
B4005 Small Pulse Adjust

Edit: thanks for fixing the misspelling on the title.....it bugged the crap out of me.


yes we need this ASAP....... I NEED IT FOR MY LS9 injectors...

[joecar]

Subscribing...

I'm part way done with transcribing LS9 injectors, but got hung up with honey-do's... :doh2:

[WHYTRYZ06]

Subscribing...

I'm part way done with transcribing LS9 injectors, but got hung up with honey-do's... :doh2:

joe,

u da man...thanks... lemme know when its done...ill call u on monday...

[SweetS10V8]

Guys,

Here is what I found, I cant take any credit(right or wrong), I have no idea where/who it originated from. When I recalculate and then input the new data into EFILive nothing looks out of whack.

Ive attached both the original and the one I tweaked for EFILive. Please feel free to look it over and make sure I didnt screw anything up. It seems to me there are just some simple calulations to change it over for us.

"B3701 Injector Pulse width Voltage Adjustment" I just had to swap the "X" and "Y" axis so you can copy and paste into EFILive instead of typing them in manually. EFILive is on the bottom in blue....I did notice that when Excel transposed this table for some reason it wouldnt do cell 8,10. So I just manually inputed the correct number. Its also way down at 7 volts, if your there anyways, you probably have other issues.

B4001 Injector Flow Rate I made added a calculation for g/sec so you dont have to switch to Imperial to input the lb/hr.

B4003 Minimum Injector Pulse Width No Change

B4005 Small Pulse Adjust I had to change the labels to match the inputs we have on EFILive, Its auto calculated based off the label so it changed the data to be inputed as well. (See graphs below on that page)

[SweetS10V8]

I think you could drop in the LS9 inputs into this graph as long as they have the same data to crossover in the stock file.

You guys know the LS9 injector shoots at a funny angle compared to all the other injectors right? If you use it in a non LS9 engine your most likely going to be spraying all your fuel against the intake port.

[mr.prick]

There are also short Bosch III injectors for 3GEN.
They are "standard" where 3GEN is long body.

Injection Valve EV 6 (http://www.stonis-world.net/docs/bosch_ev6.pdf)
BOSCH FUEL INJECTORS (http://apps.bosch.com.au/motorsport/downloads/fuelinjectors.pdf)

[SweetS10V8]

Like this.... Ive only messed with a few LS9 injectors but they look to be the same body as the LS3/LS7 injectors.

http://www.hinsonsupercars.com/Pics/Products/InjectorComparison.jpg

[mr.prick]

Like this:
http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/images/uploads/NEWMODELS/boschls1mini.JPG
http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/images/uploads/NEWMODELS/boschls1min1.JPG
They are pretty big too.
48.19lb & 65.23lb

[SweetS10V8]

Ive never seen the newer gen IV looking injectors that are the same length as the old LS1 injectors.

[mr.prick]

FIC has them.
Bosch III LS1 mini for use on LS2 manifolds (http://fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=205)

[WHYTRYZ06]

the ls9 tables are a tad different, should work tho... joe is working on an ls9 specific spread sheet tho...:)

STICKY INFO....

[redhardsupra]

Guys, these spreadsheets are wrong. Do not use linear interpolation on non-linear data.

The IFR spreadsheet calculations starts by treating the 400-480kpa range as a straight line of a fixed slope. It isn't, or at least Bernoulli doesn't agree. I understand that in that particular range the curve is fairly flat, but it doesn't mean it is. Besides, with the Bernoulli's formula, we can calculate the IFR values precisely, instead of (badly) interpolating them. Please don't oversimplify things. Also, in the IFR sheet the conversion from gram/sec to pound/hr is slightly off.

The minimum pulse width sheet equates the values incorrectly as well. 1600rpm cell in LS1 dataset is equated to the 2000rpm cell in the LS3 dataset.

The short pulse width table, ironically enough, since it's a nonlinear-adder by nature, is done correctly with linear interpolation.

And I left the Voltage Offset table for the end, because what a mess that it...
Where do I even start? The 50kPa MANVAC table pulls values from the 480kPa LS3-style table, which has nothing to do with it, unless your base fuel pressure is 430kPa and not the usual 400kPa. The 80kPa MANVAC gets its values from the 528kPa LS3-style table. That's completely baffling as far as the 'why?'
As far as the Voltage axis, the linear interpolation is used again, which is incorrect as the relationship between the offset value and the Voltage is something along the lines of offset=k/(V^3) for some value of k.

In general, the whole approach to reshaping this table between LS1 and LS3 styles is wrong. You could just come up with an underlying model, fit a surface to it, and then recreate the new calibration for the new set of numbers needed. It's really not that complicated.

If you're going to post some tools publicly, please make sure you understand the underlying math and physics, and not just take blind stabs in the dark with primitive mathematical tools.

Love,
--Marcin

[WHYTRYZ06]

OK, MARCIN... lets see what joe comes up with...:) i know he's been working on one so we will wait on him...:)

[SweetS10V8]

If you're going to post some tools publicly, please make sure you understand the underlying math and physics, and not just take blind stabs in the dark with primitive mathematical tools.

Love,
--Marcin

Like I said, I cant take credit for it being right or wrong, its just what I found.


Where do I even start?

So since you understand this so well, instead of telling us how wrong we are, help us fix it. Its obviously something that would help out the community in general.

Is the data so bad it wont work? Or are you speaking in terms like Greg Banish who believes ONLY FULL OEM calibration will work? The masses neither understand nor can afford to do OEM style testing, that's why we meet on forums to share what we find out. Don't get me wrong I would love to have everything 100% correct, and Greg is a great guy.

Back to my point.... Can you help us fix whats wrong?

[redhardsupra]

Like I said, I cant take credit for it being right or wrong, its just what I found.

yes, but you should at least do some common-sense checks, like seeing if you're grabbing data from the corresponding column, which were apparently not performed. since you just grabbed someone's spreadsheet and just ran with it, you are obviously aware that the moment you post something, especially when you make a tool, that others will use it mindlessly, thus putting the responsibility squarely back onto the creator of said tool.



So since you understand this so well, instead of telling us how wrong we are, help us fix it. Its obviously something that would help out the community in general.

you must be new here... i have contributed to this community; if you read more you'd find plenty of proof.



Is the data so bad it wont work? Or are you speaking in terms like Greg Banish who believes ONLY FULL OEM calibration will work? The masses neither understand nor can afford to do OEM style testing, that's why we meet on forums to share what we find out. Don't get me wrong I would love to have everything 100% correct, and Greg is a great guy.

How bad is the data? we don't know, because we don't have the correct data to compare it to. and if we knew the correct data, we'd have no reason to compare our estimated numbers.

There are tables for which OEM style testing are the prefered method (Short Pulse Adder). Other tables are translatable using simple math tricks, you just have to know which ones.

As to Greg...well, let's just say I blame him directly for giving people the horrible idea that you can use the linear interpolation on every table, as he does it repeatedly on his DVD, and it's absolutely wrong.



Back to my point.... Can you help us fix whats wrong?
I am working on a Universal IFR Generator, but that's only for IFR. Other tables, especially the voltage offset being a 3D relationship are a bit less trivial. All in time I guess...

[SweetS10V8]

So should I just sell my LS3 injectors and buy a Gen III set with a known OEM data, like the injector data Greg includes with his DVD?

[redhardsupra]

stock injectors out of some other platform for which we have data in some sort of format is best. everything else is ballpark. and since all airmass calibration is based by estimating the airmass with fuel consumption (which is calculated out of injector characteristics), the error will propagate throughout your new tune. If you can find injectors that fulfill your fueling needs, get them. If they dont exist, then you're forced to start hacking and guesstimating.

[SweetS10V8]

Thats why I got LS3 injectors in the first place. But now I just cant get the data to cross reference like I assumed it would, unfortunatly.

[redhardsupra]

yes, but that's just some math tricks away, not a real problem.

[SweetS10V8]

I dont have the ability to do that math. What would it cost to get the correct data???

If I cant get it, I can get a set of FAST 36lb injectors for a decent price that I think are Bosch or Delphi. And at my 58psi fuel pressure they shoudl be around 42lb/hr which would work just fine.

Does the increased fuel pressure change the values of everything?? I would think with more pressure on the pintle the short time would change the amount of time it takes to open and start flowing fuel.

[mr.prick]

I dont have the ability to do that math. What would it cost to get the correct data???

If I cant get it, I can get a set of FAST 36lb injectors for a decent price that I think are Bosch or Delphi. And at my 58psi fuel pressure they shoudl be around 42lb/hr which would work just fine.

Does the increased fuel pressure change the values of everything?? I would think with more pressure on the pintle the short time would change the amount of time it takes to open and start flowing fuel.

I believe the "F.A.S.T 36lb injectors" are actually the Bosch 0280155868
If you look at the bosch injector.pdf I linked to you will see they are
34.54lb @ 3bar & 39.88 @ 4bar

With so much conflicting information on just about every injector advertised,
it seems like no one really knows what any injector flows. :hihi:

[WHYTRYZ06]

Like i said lets see what joe comes up with...:)

SweetS10V8,

im glad we have people like u here, as well as marcin, thanks for sharing what u found...:)

[redhardsupra]

It's done, I have a generic program of interpolating (linear, spline, or cubic) any functions, 2d or 3d. I tried to make some pictures of the original and interpolated surfaces, but they're close enough they just mess up the charts. So which particular data do you want me to convert? Give me a list and i'll just make a simple spreadsheet out of it so people can look it up without much issues.

http://www.seowoman.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/barbie-hates-math.png

MATH-PANZIES! ;)

[WHYTRYZ06]

marcin,

all we wanna do is interperate ls/7/9 injectors into an ls1 pcm.. we need a simple spreadsheet that will do that....

i would like to see 2 seperate sheets one for ls7 and one for ls9 since the tables between the two differ slightly

[redhardsupra]

marcin,

all we wanna do is interperate ls/7/9 injectors into an ls1 pcm.. we need a simple spreadsheet that will do that....

i would like to see 2 seperate sheets one for ls7 and one for ls9 since the tables between the two differ slightly

send me two spreadsheets then, one with data for LS7 and one for LS9, and I will 'fill in the blanks' for you. marcinpohl@gmail.com is the address.

[WHYTRYZ06]

marcin the tables that we would need to change in the ls1 pcm are....

B3701- injector pulsewidth voltage
B4001- injector flow rate
B4003- minimum injector puslewidth
B4005- small pulse adjust

corospond those tables w/ the ls7 and ls9 calabration....

thats what we need...:)

joe is working on the ls9 for me, so we will see what he comes up with...

im terrible with math so any help would be nice

[WHYTRYZ06]

send me two spreadsheets then, one with data for LS7 and one for LS9, and I will 'fill in the blanks' for you. marcinpohl@gmail.com is the address.

marcin,

id love to, but i have no idea how to use excel.... im a total dummy when it comes to this stuff... all i know how to do is plug in the numbers and what ever it spits out i put into my tune... :(

im a wrench, i also tune my own car.... but this techicnal stuff stumps me...lol i even went to OLSD to simplify my tuning...

[redhardsupra]

oh dear, i do now what tables we need, i've been around this block a few times. what i don't have is the stock values. put them in the appropriately named spread sheet. send them to me. await answers. receive correct values. offer the gratitude of your younger sister.

[WHYTRYZ06]

oh dear, i do now what tables we need, i've been around this block a few times. what i don't have is the stock values. put them in the appropriately named spread sheet. send them to me. await answers. receive correct values. offer the gratitude of your younger sister.

marcin,

lemme see what i can come up with... u can get the stock values from a 09 zr1 tune as well as an 08 z06 tune all from holden crazy.... like i said i have no idea on spreadsheets or how to use excel... if i had a sister id offer her lol

[WHYTRYZ06]

marcin,

i cut and pasted b3701 into excel but i dont have the column and rows labled is that ok?

thasts the best i can do

[WHYTRYZ06]

marcin,

just sent u an email lemme know what u think

[SweetS10V8]

send me two spreadsheets then, one with data for LS7 and one for LS9, and I will 'fill in the blanks' for you. marcinpohl@gmail.com is the address.
Ill email them sometime tommorow morning. I have a 14 week old that takes priority to my tuning....:grin:

[WHYTRYZ06]

Ill email them sometime tommorow morning. I have a 14 week old that takes priority to my tuning....:grin:

thanks dude :)

[joecar]

Straight copy/paste with linear interpolation won't work:
- the interpolation has to follow the Bernoulli pressure/flow equation (squareroot),
- the axis points are different, these have to be shifted and recalculated,
- the axis ranges are different (this is the easy part) e.g. MANVAC vs DELTAMAP.

So it all requires some thought.

I'm copying LS9 tables, moving the axis points by recalculating, interpolating using the Bernoulli equation... I'm not making a tool, just a straight paste-with-labels spreadsheet...

I got slowed up over the holidays with family... :) ...oh, and I have been painting and pre-assembling suspension parts.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Straight copy/paste with linear interpolation won't work:
- the interpolation has to follow the Bernoulli pressure/flow equation (squareroot),
- the axis points are different, these have to be shifted and recalculated,
- the axis ranges are different (this is the easy part) e.g. MANVAC vs DELTAMAP.

So it all requires some thought.

I'm copying LS9 tables, moving the axis points by recalculating, interpolating using the Bernoulli equation... I'm not making a tool, just a straight paste-with-labels spreadsheet...

I got slowed up over the holidays with family... :) ...oh, and I have been painting and pre-assembling suspension parts.

Once again joe comes thru :) call u on monday?

[SweetS10V8]

what i don't have is the stock values. put them in the appropriately named spread sheet. send them to me. await answers. receive correct values. offer the gratitude of your younger sister.



Sent!

I dont have a younger sister either unfortunatly. I do have a few bucks in paypal though, Ill buy you lunch :)

[joecar]

Once again joe comes thru :) call u on monday?I won't be done yet, but we can talk...:)

[WHYTRYZ06]

I won't be done yet, but we can talk...:)

:) thanks

[eficalibrator]

Guys, these spreadsheets are wrong. Do not use linear interpolation on non-linear data.

...If you're going to post some tools publicly, please make sure you understand the underlying math and physics, and not just take blind stabs in the dark with primitive mathematical tools.
As a point of order, let's start by pointing out these are not to be confused with the data I've released for the FRPP Bosch and Siemens injectors. The values I include with my DVD (along with instructions for properly applying said data) are based on actual mass vs. time and voltage as derived from Ford SciLab data.


...Or are you speaking in terms like Greg Banish who believes ONLY FULL OEM calibration will work? The masses neither understand nor can afford to do OEM style testing, that's why we meet on forums to share what we find out. Don't get me wrong I would love to have everything 100% correct...

OEM testing isn't the ONLY way, but you need a far more complete workup than the typical ASNU bench data most of the aftermarket thinks they can get away with. I'm working with companies like FAST and Continental to make good, complete data more commonplace in the performance aftermarket.


As to Greg...well, let's just say I blame him directly for giving people the horrible idea that you can use the linear interpolation on every table, as he does it repeatedly on his DVD, and it's absolutely wrong.
Marcin, I guess I missed where I endorsed "linear interpolation on every table." If one watches the DVD carefully, I only encourage linear interpolation across small sections of the offset table. The raw data points I'm working between are VERY nonlinear, but limited to the resolution provided by Ford.

The short pulse adjust table is linear as a result of the source of the data. Ford themselves model the nonlinear flow region with a single secondary slope below the breakpoint combined with a shifted offset. I think we can all agree that Ford has got close enough injector control to use this model to achieve ULEV emissions standards on many vehicles, a target much more stringent than the performance aftermarket dreams of today. Sure, we could be a little bit more robust with a full workup of mass vs time in the transitional area, but we're already well beyond the point of diminishing returns for fuel mass precision here.

At the end of this, there's a time and a place for linear interpolation. I started with as accurate of a non-linear source as possible then interpolated to fit the various GM breakpoints near that. Lot of 3rd parties have already confirmed that the resulting values were so much more accurate than what they've been struggling with that all the remaining calibration work really was that much easier.

By all means, start a fresh thread if you wish to discuss in more detail. It wouldn't be that difficult to convert LS3/7 injector data to LS1 breakpoints with a reasonable amount of accuracy using the same strategy.

[redhardsupra]

Two spreadsheets,
one for LS3:
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/LS39_LS1_conversion/OEM%20LS3%20Data.xls

...and one for LS9:
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/LS39_LS1_conversion/OEM%20LS9%20Data.xls

Here's some pics of how closely now the fitted surfaces are to the original data (LS3):
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/LS39_LS1_conversion/LS3_LS1voltageconversion.png

the wireframe is the original LS3/9 data, the colored surface is the fitted LS1 style surface.

...and the same thing for LS9:
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/LS39_LS1_conversion/LS9_LS1voltageconversion.png


and for the final show, Short Pulse Adders for LS3:
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/LS39_LS1_conversion/LS3_LS1spaconversion.png


...and LS9:
http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/LS39_LS1_conversion/LS9_LS1spaconversion.png


Please take a look at the spreadsheets, they should be correct, but you never know, I might've copied'n'pasted something wrong.

[WHYTRYZ06]

marcin,

wow just wow good work... joe is finishing up his as we speak

[joecar]

Marcin, good job...:cheers:...what did you use to plot those...?

[WHYTRYZ06]

Marcin, good job...:cheers:...what did you use to plot those...?

joe is urs gonna be the same? i still wanna see what u come up with :)

[joecar]

joe is urs gonna be the same? i still wanna see what u come up with :)I'm still working on it. :)

[WHYTRYZ06]

I'm still working on it. :)

okie dokie...:)

[redhardsupra]

Marcin, good job...:cheers:...what did you use to plot those...?


Matlab's surf and mesh functions for 3d stuff, line for 2d stuff. The interpolation itself is done with splines.

[mr.prick]

I'd like to know why 2 different vehicles with the same fuel injectors have different offsets & IFR.

2002 Camaro Coupe Manual 5.7 Litre LS1 12212156 (http://holdencrazy.com/EFILive/TuneFileRepository/Stock/Chevrolet/2002%20Chevrolet%20Camaro%20Coupe%20Manual%20LS1%2 05.7%20Litre%20(12212156).tun)
2002 Corvette Coupe Manual 5.7 Litre LS1 12212156 (http://holdencrazy.com/EFILive/TuneFileRepository/Stock/Chevrolet/2002%20Chevrolet%20Corvette%20Coupe%20Manual%20LS1 %205.7%20Litre%20(12212156).tun)

[redhardsupra]

I'd like to know why 2 different vehicles with the same fuel injectors have different offsets & IFR.

2002 Camaro Coupe Manual 5.7 Litre LS1 12212156 (http://holdencrazy.com/EFILive/TuneFileRepository/Stock/Chevrolet/2002%20Chevrolet%20Camaro%20Coupe%20Manual%20LS1%2 05.7%20Litre%20%2812212156%29.tun)
2002 Corvette Coupe Manual 5.7 Litre LS1 12212156 (http://holdencrazy.com/EFILive/TuneFileRepository/Stock/Chevrolet/2002%20Chevrolet%20Corvette%20Coupe%20Manual%20LS1 %205.7%20Litre%20%2812212156%29.tun)
they might not be truly stock tunes. different OS's might reflect different hardware, or just an improved calibration.
that's a Greg question if I ever seen one... Maestro?

[mr.prick]

Those are direct links from Holden Crazy (http://holdencrazy.com/EFILive/) so I can only assume they are legit.
You can look at any LS1 vehicle from the same years (2001+)
and see different values, the hardware is the same.
"Improved calibration" ......maybe. :angel_innocent:


that's a Greg question if I ever seen one... Maestro?
Was this meant to be an insult? :laugh:

My theory is the injectors need to be manipulated for the vehicle they are installed in and one set of values will not work in all vehicles.
The .tuns linked seem to support that, provided they are legit. :nixweiss:

[redhardsupra]

Was this meant to be an insult? :laugh:

not at all, when it comes to explanations of why would OEM do something, Greg is a fountainhead of information

[bink]

What a great thread! Thanks for all the great info, guys. :D

[eficalibrator]

I'd like to know why 2 different vehicles with the same fuel injectors have different offsets & IFR.


...or just an improved calibration.
that's a Greg question if I ever seen one... Maestro?

With the caveat that they actually ARE stock files:

It's no secret that automakers routinely update calibrations even in service long after the initial vehicle release. Further, if one vehicle platform was released later than the other, it's very likely that the OEM had an update to the injector data from either the supplier or internal fuel lab in the mean time. Case in point: look at the LS7 injector data between the original release and now. (This is also the same injector used on LS3 in both Camaro and Corvette) They've learned more about these injectors over the years and refined the ECU calibration data based on a larger statistical sample. The changes are subtle, but I'd still prefer the latest iteration if possible.

[SweetS10V8]

I dropped in all the calibrations and my truck wouldnt start, sounded like I had no spark all the sudden. I had to go to clear flood mode to get it to do anything, telling me it was getting so much fuel it couldnt light it off. WHen it did start for a second, black smoke just rolled out the exahust. :(

When I get some free time Im going to change one table at a time and see if it was any specific part that made it not work. My tune couldnt be that far off could it?????

[WHYTRYZ06]

I dropped in all the calibrations and my truck wouldnt start, sounded like I had no spark all the sudden. I had to go to clear flood mode to get it to do anything, telling me it was getting so much fuel it couldnt light it off. WHen it did start for a second, black smoke just rolled out the exahust. :(

When I get some free time Im going to change one table at a time and see if it was any specific part that made it not work. My tune couldnt be that far off could it?????

I could be but, my thinking is the injector tables should tuned 1st before the car? idk i could be wrong....

Ima do mine today w/ marcins spreadsheet and ill report back...:)

[redhardsupra]

yes, injectors, and all other 'hardware' changes are the first step. there's some reading for you:

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/08/unscrewing-bad-tune.html

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/12/unscrewing-bad-tune-part-2.html

[Aloicious]

not to veer off course too much, but while on the subject of the voltage vs manvac offsets, I've got a question.

On a return style fueling system with a boost/vacuum referenced regulator, I have heard that there should be no slope across the varied vacuum rows (i.e. each cell in a specific column are all identical). I'm sure where ever I heard this, someone is making a connection with the IFR table which should be flat and unchanged between varied manvac cells (as opposed to sloped with returnless fueling systems).

however, the more I think about it, I wonder if that is correct. wouldn't greater manifold vacuum (regardless of what fuel pressure at the injector may be) inflict greater forces on the injector pintle (or disc or whatever) causing it to be more apt to stay closed, i.e. as manvac increases, there should be some slight increases in the actual offset to overcome these forces? if my explaination makes any sense.

[redhardsupra]

that's completely on topic actually.

you are correct, if your system keeps delta pressure constant, despite changes in MANVAC, then yes, you need to have your voltage offsets values constant across all MANVAC values. this tells the ecu that MANVAC values do not affect your voltage offsets. normally IFR is tied to MANVAC through Bernoulli's equation. with boost reference, you break that connection. delta pressure across the injector is kept constant, thus everything that depends on that delta pressure is 'disjointed' from it.

[mr.prick]

As battery voltage varies, the injector pulse widths are adjusted by this much to compensate for the changes in the opening and closing times.

How are the values in {B3701} applied?
Are they added like the small pulse values or subtracted?

[joecar]

not to veer off course too much, but while on the subject of the voltage vs manvac offsets, I've got a question.

On a return style fueling system with a boost/vacuum referenced regulator, I have heard that there should be no slope across the varied vacuum rows (i.e. each cell in a specific column are all identical). I'm sure where ever I heard this, someone is making a connection with the IFR table which should be flat and unchanged between varied manvac cells (as opposed to sloped with returnless fueling systems).

however, the more I think about it, I wonder if that is correct. wouldn't greater manifold vacuum (regardless of what fuel pressure at the injector may be) inflict greater forces on the injector pintle (or disc or whatever) causing it to be more apt to stay closed, i.e. as manvac increases, there should be some slight increases in the actual offset to overcome these forces? if my explaination makes any sense.
A referenced regulator adds MAP to the base fuel pressure... i.e. MAP is present on both upper (rail) and lower (manifold) sides of of each injector... so in the expression for pressure difference across any one injector, MAP cancels out, leaving a constant pressure difference... i.e. the pressure difference across any one injector stays constant regardless of variations in MAP or MANVAC.

See this: showthread.php?t=4821 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4821)

[joecar]

How are the values in {B3701} applied?
Are they added like the small pulse values or subtracted?My understanding is that they are added to the calculated pulse width...

i.e. as voltage drops the injector response slows down, and in the table the values get bigger.

[mr.prick]

So would total injector pulse would be
iff(IBPW<{B4006},IBPW+{B3701}+{B4005},IBPW+{B3701}
?

[dfe1]

Not to beat the proverbial dead horse, but there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding regarding injector flow rate values in different style systems. Whether or not a pressure regulator is referenced to manifold vacuum, there's a need to maintain a consistent pressure differential across the injectors. If a system is designed to operate at 4 bar (which equals 400 kPa or 58 psi depending on you units of measurement preference) it will apply that amount of pressure to the supply side of an injector if system pressure isn't altered to account for manifold vacuum. At zero manifold vacuum, the pressure differential will therefore be 400 kPa (400+0=400). However, if manifold vacuum is 50 kPa, the amount of pressure applied to the injector must be reduced by that amount to compensate for the 50 kPa vacuum ("negative pressure") that's being applied to the discharge side. (350 kPa pressure plus 50 kPa vacuum equals 400 kPa pressure differential).

If a fuel pressure regulator is referenced to manifold vacuum, system fuel pressure is automatically altered as manifold vacuum levels change. If a system's pressure regulator isn't vacuum referenced, another means must be used to compensate. In LS engine control systems, it's done electronically. The injector flow rate table is designed to simulate the effects of a vacuum-referenced pressure regulator by referencing injector discharge rate to manifold vacuum. If you look at the values in an IFR table, you'll see that as manifold vacuum increases, injector flow rate increases as well, which results in the system calling for a shorter pulse width. So as opposed to actually changing pressure on the supply side of an injector, the electronic method of compensating for the effects of manifold vacuum is to alter pulse width.

[joecar]

So would total injector pulse would be
iff(IBPW<{B4006},IBPW+{B3701}+{B4005},IBPW+{B3701})
?I don't know...

You also have to factor in B4003, B4004.

[5.7ute]

Total injector pulsewidth is IBPW. Do not confuse this with only the fuelling contribution of the pulsewidth which I call IPW in these equations.
IBPWx = IPW + {B3701} + {B4005} + transient fuelling modifiers unless IPW is less than {B4003} otherwise we have
IBPWx = {B4004} + {B3701} + {B4005} + Transient fuelling modifiers.

[WHYTRYZ06]

too complicated...:)

[Aloicious]

that's completely on topic actually.

you are correct, if your system keeps delta pressure constant, despite changes in MANVAC, then yes, you need to have your voltage offsets values constant across all MANVAC values. this tells the ecu that MANVAC values do not affect your voltage offsets. normally FP is tied to MANVAC through Bernoulli's equation. with boost reference, you break that connection. delta pressure across the injector is kept constant, thus everything that depends on that delta pressure is 'disjointed' from it.

Ah, Thanks Marcin, that makes good sense, I was contemplating the physics of it, but wasn't sure how it related to how everything was calculated.

[redhardsupra]

Total injector pulsewidth is IBPW. Do not confuse this with only the fuelling contribution of the pulsewidth which I call IPW in these equations.
IBPWx = IPW + {B3701} + {B4005} + transient fuelling modifiers unless IPW is less than {B4003} otherwise we have
IBPWx = {B4004} + {B3701} + {B4005} + Transient fuelling modifiers.
i've been after this for years now. i know we've talked about this before, but have you conclusively proven this? we should probably take it offline or make a different thread...

[joecar]

Total injector pulsewidth is IBPW. Do not confuse this with only the fuelling contribution of the pulsewidth which I call IPW in these equations.
IBPWx = IPW + {B3701} + {B4005} + transient fuelling modifiers unless IPW is less than {B4003} otherwise we have
IBPWx = {B4004} + {B3701} + {B4005} + Transient fuelling modifiers.
Very interesting...

if IPW is less than {4003} then
IBPWx = {B4004} + {B3701} + {B4005} + TF modifiers;
else
IBPWx = IPW + {B3701} + {B4005} + TF modifiers;
Or...
if IPW is less than {4003} then
IPW = {B4004};
IBPWx = IPW + {B3701} + {B4005} + TF modifiers
What about B4006...?

[joecar]

How about this:
IPW = IPW + TF_modifiers;

IPW = IPW + B3701;

if IPW < {B4006} then
IPW = IPW + {B4005};

if IPW < {B4003} then
IPW = {B4004};

IBPW = IPW;

[WHYTRYZ06]

this should be a sticky....

[5.7ute]

i've been after this for years now. i know we've talked about this before, but have you conclusively proven this? we should probably take it offline or make a different thread...

I wish.
The scan tool is too noisy to give a definative answer, but I am that close I can taste it.

[joecar]

that's completely on topic actually.

you are correct, if your system keeps delta pressure constant, despite changes in MANVAC, then yes, you need to have your voltage offsets values constant across all MANVAC values. this tells the ecu that MANVAC values do not affect your voltage offsets. normally FP is tied to MANVAC through Bernoulli's equation. with boost reference, you break that connection. delta pressure across the injector is kept constant, thus everything that depends on that delta pressure is 'disjointed' from it.Marcin, I know you meant flowrate... :)

[Aloicious]

Marcin, I know you meant flowrate... :)

thats how I took it.

[redhardsupra]

fixed

[mr.prick]

What about flows rates with n-heptane?
Should you adjust (*1.035) for it and
should you use minimum, maximum or average of logged fuel pressure for calculating IFR?

[SS Enforcer]

Great thread guys just what I was looking for. I am getting a ls3 stroker built and running the ls3 injectors with a ls1 pcm. Thanks Marcin for the spreadsheet for b3701 now any chance of what to put in B4001 please.

4.415820
4.443000
4.470000
4.497000
4.524000
4.551000
4.578000
4.605000
4.631000
4.657000
4.683000
4.709000
4.735000
4.761000
4.786000
4.812000
4.837000

Ok I should have searched a bit harder I used Marcins spreadsheet to work it out.

cheers
Paul

[redhardsupra]

the IFR table (I think that's B4001, I never got used to the EFI numbering scheme) you want set up based on the fuel pressure scanned with a fuel pressure sensor, and adjusted from the flow test bench's data for your particular injector. There's enough of discrepancies and shortcomings in the hardware to use to render all assumptions useless.

Here's some older, but absolutely applicable posts about this:

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2007/02/injector-sizing-explained.html

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/12/fuel-pump-sizing.html

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/12/ifr-spreadsheet-for-logged-fuel.html

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/12/under-fuel-pressure.html

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2006/02/why-flow-matched-injectors-are.html

[SweetS10V8]

Has anyone had the time to try out the new injector data in their vehicle yet? I havent made time to do it yet.

[5.7ute]

Has anyone had the time to try out the new injector data in their vehicle yet? I havent made time to do it yet.

I have tried but not tested them yet, I need to finish this other stuff first.
First impressions are good.

[SS Enforcer]

the IFR table (I think that's B4001, I never got used to the EFI numbering scheme) you want set up based on the fuel pressure scanned with a fuel pressure sensor, and adjusted from the flow test bench's data for your particular injector. There's enough of discrepancies and shortcomings in the hardware to use to render all assumptions useless.




Thanks for the reply and I understand there will be discrepancies with different systems but I will need a base tune to start with. The 12576341 ls3 injectors are quoted as 39.82 lb injectors @58 PSI in some net searches and 42.1 lb at 58psi on other ones I have done.
I'm currently looking for someone here in Western Sydney who can flow them for me so I have a good base to start. I firmly agree that it is imperative to find out exacly what each injector flows to avoid a lean condition on a cyl.

Thanks again

[WHYTRYZ06]

Has anyone had the time to try out the new injector data in their vehicle yet? I havent made time to do it yet.

I have a different version then marcins, someone made it for me... way diff values then marcins sheets...

i will try my new sheets tomm and report back

i have ls3 and ls9 injector tables..:) from a reputable source :)

[WHYTRYZ06]

ok well my offsets and ifr work....no issues car starts and runs fine... just need to tune it and its all good, and i didnt use marcins sheet...

[5.7ute]

ok well my offsets and ifr work....no issues car starts and runs fine... just need to tune it and its all good, and i didnt use marcins sheet...

Still doesnt make them right though.:angel_innocent:

[WHYTRYZ06]

Still doesnt make them right though.:angel_innocent:

well, shows what u know...if u say so, lol then they dont work....ima belive what u say over the STOP difference i already feel w/ the car.,

to each their own

[joecar]

The differences between the tables I have and Marcin's table's are very small (in the decimal places)... I made sure the axis/labels lined up properly so that paste-with-labels works... my tools forced me to interpolate in the X and Y directions separately so it let me look closely at each 2D curve that make up the 3D table (B1210->B3701) and eliminate any strange values caused by interpolating with a quadratic or a cubic spline (i.e. where it should be flat at 14 ms)... and I made sure the "boundaries" matched the original tables...

essentially we're sanity checking each other... :cheers:

I found something interesting: when I reverse calculated the rail pressure from the original tables, I found this:

- GM appears to have calculated the LS3/LS7 IFR based on rail pressure 58.0 psi,
- GM appears to have calculated the LS9 IFR based on rail pressure 61.4 psi,

(61.4 psi... what is that....?)

To find the rail pressure: rearrange IFR480 = IFR400*sqrt((P+80)/P) to get P = 80/((IFR480/IFR400)^2-1)

where IFR480 is at 480kPa, IFR400 is at 400kPa, P is rail pressure.

:)

[5.7ute]

well, shows what u know...if u say so, lol then they dont work....ima belive what u say over the STOP difference i already feel w/ the car.,

to each their own

I am not saying that what values you have used are wrong or right. I dont even know what your values are. Just that the car running, no matter how well can still be achieved with the incorrect values.

At the end of the day, as long as you are happy that is all that counts.

[WHYTRYZ06]

I am not saying that what values you have used are wrong or right. I dont even know what your values are. Just that the car running, no matter how well can still be achieved with the incorrect values.

At the end of the day, as long as you are happy that is all that counts.

well, i hear ya... but there correct, and i stand behind the man who made em'

[joecar]

They may or may not be the correct values... they are an attempt to shoe-horn the stock LS3/LS7/LS9 tables into the LS1 tables...

the LS1 tables would even force some discretization on those values (i.e. rounding to the nearest representable binary number).

The idea is to copy all the injector tables [that can be copied] following Greg Banish's idea of using injectors that come with all the tables.

:gossip:

[WHYTRYZ06]

They may or may not be the correct values... they are an attempt to shoe-horn the stock LS3/LS7/LS9 tables into the LS1 tables...

the LS1 tables would even force some discretization on those values (i.e. rounding to the nearest representable binary number).

The idea is to copy all the injector tables [that can be copied] following Greg Banish's idea of using injectors that come with all the tables.

:gossip:

well said joe

[SweetS10V8]

It wouldn't be that difficult to convert LS3/7 injector data to LS1 breakpoints with a reasonable amount of accuracyMaybe Greg could look over the data from the guys, or calculate his own data to compare?

But I have looked at both RedSupras and Joes data and they are typically 3 to 4 decimal places before they differ, so Im fairly confident they are correct.

[samh_08]

A lot of very good information in this thread. Seems like we get all the brains in on injector threads. :)

Anyways, a couple tables were not addressed from what I see.

{B1217} Injection Extra Pulse Min Time (Ms) - COMPARED TO - Unknown??

{B1205} Injection Timing ECT (Degrees) COMPARED TO {B3702} Injection Timing (mS)

There a couple of other tables that either exist or dont exist in either tune (LS1 and LS3) but I dont know what we can do about that...


Redhardsupra - I thank you for your effort in the making of the spreadsheets (Couldn't find Joecars?). They do seem a lot more accurate than what I had in my tables. Do you submit this spreadsheet to the public for our 'mindless use'? :hihi:

Lets keep the info rolling,
Sam

[5.7ute]

A lot of very good information in this thread. Seems like we get all the brains in on injector threads. :)

Anyways, a couple tables were not addressed from what I see.

{B1217} Injection Extra Pulse Min Time (Ms) - COMPARED TO - Unknown??

{B1205} Injection Timing ECT (Degrees) COMPARED TO {B3702} Injection Timing (mS)

There a couple of other tables that either exist or dont exist in either tune (LS1 and LS3) but I dont know what we can do about that...


Redhardsupra - I thank you for your effort in the making of the spreadsheets (Couldn't find Joecars?). They do seem a lot more accurate than what I had in my tables. Do you submit this spreadsheet to the public for our 'mindless use'? :hihi:

Lets keep the info rolling,
Sam

Sam, I think you will find those tables are tune related, not an injector characteristic so they were not necessary in this discussion.

[samh_08]

Sam, I think you will find those tables are tune related, not an injector characteristic so they were not necessary in this discussion.
Good call..I guess the only table with question now is {B4004} Default Minimum Pulse Width. I dont have a clue of where to start with this and do not see a rhyme or reason to how the stock calibrations came up with the numbers..


Sam :cheers:

[5.7ute]

Good call..I guess the only table with question now is {B4004} Default Minimum Pulse Width. I dont have a clue of where to start with this and do not see a rhyme or reason to how the stock calibrations came up with the numbers..


Sam :cheers:

Quite simply, it is the smallest calculated pulsewidth that the injector can consistantly supply fuel. Under a certain pulsewidth the fuelling can become extremely erratic,often to the point where the injector doesnt inject fuel at all. So a default value is used.
This is a mechanical limit within the injector & would be calibrated on a test bench.
One thing to note is this value plus the offset becomes your scanners minimum IBPW.(So if this value was set to 1.2ms, and your offset for that voltage/manvac point was 0.5ms your scanner will show a minimum of 1.7ms)

[redhardsupra]

Redhardsupra - I thank you for your effort in the making of the spreadsheets (Couldn't find Joecars?). They do seem a lot more accurate than what I had in my tables. Do you submit this spreadsheet to the public for our 'mindless use'? :hihi:


I think I posted that spreadsheet didn't it?

The one part that cannot be really done with a spreadsheet (or at least not easily) is the 3d surface fitting for the offset table. I did it in Matlab, if you're interested I'll be glad to share my code for that. I usually don't post that sort of stuff, because people tell me that's useless to them, but I'm more than willing to share with the extra curious ones.

[samh_08]

I think I posted that spreadsheet didn't it?

The one part that cannot be really done with a spreadsheet (or at least not easily) is the 3d surface fitting for the offset table. I did it in Matlab, if you're interested I'll be glad to share my code for that. I usually don't post that sort of stuff, because people tell me that's useless to them, but I'm more than willing to share with the extra curious ones.
Marcin, it was your spreadsheet that I used and it was posted on this thread. Joecar also sent his spreadsheets to my email and I compared both his and your data side by side. They are VERY close, but yet definitely different. I was curious as to how you two came up with different answers (and ultimately, who is right :hihi:.)

The only table your spreadsheet didn't cover was {B4004} Default Minimum Pulse Width. I dont know if its possible to formulate a table like this but you guys always surprise me.

Besides all that, I would like to see whatever you used to form your data. :)

Thanks,
Sam

[redhardsupra]

Marcin, it was your spreadsheet that I used and it was posted on this thread. Joecar also sent his spreadsheets to my email and I compared both his and your data side by side. They are VERY close, but yet definitely different. I was curious as to how you two came up with different answers (and ultimately, who is right :hihi:.)

heh, good luck with that. Interpolation has no 'proper' solution, it's just a collection of various approaches, and you just gotta compromise between knowing what to use when, and what works for your data set. If I recall correctly, I used the splines for interpolating. Everyone else on this forums keeps using the Newtonian. Frankly, I don't think you're gonna be able to even measure the difference, considering how noisy the environments we deal with are. And then there's the limited precision of PIDs and tables, the moving averages of unknown periods for widebands, unknown chemical makup of fuel shifts your stoich... there's a fairly large margin of error is what I'm trying to say here, so don't get caught in the maddening loop of chasing that 6th decimal place, because there's truly no point.



The only table your spreadsheet didn't cover was {B4004} Default Minimum Pulse Width. I don't know if its possible to formulate a table like this but you guys always surprise me.


I think that's something that's to be figured out empirically. The good part is that I haven't bumped against that low flow limit very often. Our large displacement engines need a good chunk of fuel to just keep them running, so even with large injectors, you're on the low-end of fuel flow pretty much only under deep deceleration. Again, you got a perfectly valid point, but don't sweat it too much.

[joecar]

I used a mixture of cubic spline, cubic, quadratic interpolation (I tried them all and selected the best curves)... since I don't have MatLab or Mathematica, I had to do each axis separately, quite tedious (and lot's of fun), but it forced me to examine each iteration on each curve in each axis to see if it was sensible (the flat parts in B3701 had to remain flat)...

I was able to realize that the axis increment of B4005 was 4.012/66 = 0.0607878... which allowed me to pick the right interpolated points to allow paste-with-labels into B4005...

The fact that our interpolation efforts via different tools/methods came very close to each other is a sanity check...

In the end, the LS1's precision causes some quantization rounding which makes any small differences irrelevant...

Curve fitting/interpolation/extrapolation is always a lot of fun... :D

[redhardsupra]

Hey Joe, how did you 'mix' them? I've thought of doing a mixed model, but Matlab's way of doing it was just so nice and easy it got me lazy ;)

[redhardsupra]

The fact that our interpolation efforts via different tools/methods came very close to each is a sanity check...

AMEN brother!

[joecar]

Hey Joe, how did you 'mix' them? I've thought of doing a mixed model, but Matlab's way of doing it was just so nice and easy it got me lazy ;)I saw that one interpolation fitted one portion of a curve perfectly, but not the other portion... so I interpolated in segments... I told my tool to interpolate from x1 to x2 using cubic spline, and from x2 to x3 using quadratic, all in increments of 0.0001 or 0.00001 (I got out-of-memory on my 2GB DRAM if I used any smaller increments)... and then I picked the points at the increments for the LS1 tables.

My tool is DPlot, it lets me operate on a portion of a curve at a time... it also forces me to treat a 3D curve as a series of 2D curves in each of the X and Y axes separately... definitely tedious.

[Aloicious]

I think I posted that spreadsheet didn't it?

The one part that cannot be really done with a spreadsheet (or at least not easily) is the 3d surface fitting for the offset table. I did it in Matlab, if you're interested I'll be glad to share my code for that. I usually don't post that sort of stuff, because people tell me that's useless to them, but I'm more than willing to share with the extra curious ones.

Hey RHS, I'd be VERY interested in that matlab data. I'll send you a PM, you don't have to post it up publically, but I own matlab and use it occasionally so I'd love to plug it in and see how you're working with it.

[Aloicious]

Our large displacement engines need a good chunk of fuel to just keep them running, so even with large injectors, you're on the low-end of fuel flow pretty much only under deep deceleration. Again, you got a perfectly valid point, but don't sweat it too much.

+1, very rarely do I ever see that low of a commanded pulse width, especially after making corrections to the airflow tables (VE, MAF, etc).

[Jacktuner]

Can someone just put a ls1 tune online with the ls3 data in it so we can download and copy and paste data over? Thanks

[joecar]

Can someone just put a ls1 tune online with the ls3 data in it so we can download and copy and paste data over? ThanksIn the spreadsheets, the LS1B paste-able tables are labelled.

[Jacktuner]

Thank you

[Whipped383]

By chance is there any data conversions for the 12613412 injectors? Supposed to be 50lbs and used in the 2010 to 2013 6.0 flex fuel trucks

[joecar]

To convert those I would need the stock tune files.

[Whipped383]

Ok I'll see what I can find. I am un certain the stock tune I have is correct tho.

[Whipped383]

20465

This appears to be the correct file for the injectors in question

[joecar]

By chance is there any data conversions for the 12613412 injectors? Supposed to be 50lbs and used in the 2010 to 2013 6.0 flex fuel trucks


20465

This appears to be the correct file for the injectors in questionOk, give me a few days...

so the engine with these injectors is the L96...?

[Whipped383]

When I searched for l96 injectors the part number I mentioned earlier popped up. All the information i have been able to find supports this is the correct tune.

[LastCall]

I have a working tune with these injectors in the Gen3 format. I just used Excel to get the numbers with interpolation. I'm sure what Joe does will be better, but if you need mine to hold you over until JoeCar makes the them, shoot me a PM.

[joecar]

Yes, use LastCall's injector data for now... in a few days we can compare data and see what.

[joecar]

Can Excel do 2D interpolation (in both directions at the same time)...?

[Whipped383]

Im Ok for now joe. Im just trying to get my ducks in a row before i put the injectors in

[statesman]

Im Ok for now joe. Im just trying to get my ducks in a row before i put the injectors in

Those injectors flow 52lb @4bar. The IFR table in the truck tune you posted is pretty darn close to actual flow.

[Whipped383]

But I need all the other injector data in gen 3 format

[joecar]

20465

This appears to be the correct file for the injectors in question


But I need all the other injector data in gen 3 formatI'm running behind on a dozen things (sorry, due to my mismanagement)... give me a few days.

[Whipped383]

Joe did you ever get a chance to work on this?

[joecar]

Ah, I remember doing the interpolation a while ago, but now I don't remember where I put it :doh2: sorry... I'll do it again, give me a few days.

[Whipped383]

Any luck joe?

[joecar]

I'll have it donein the next day or two.

~ posted by phone ~

[joecar]

See attached spreadsheet, it contains interpolation of injector data from L96 to LS1...

red L96 labels show where tables came from in L96 file
green LS1 labels are data interpolated to fit into LS1 tables (tabs show LS1 table id's).

[Whipped383]

Thanks joe

[dian]

how come the voltage table is different?

[joecar]

how come the voltage table is different?
You mean B3701...? It's not, look at its 4 corners and compare to the original.

Post a screenshot image of where you see differences... if there's anything wrong I want to fix it right away.

~ posted by phone ~

[dian]

on second thought, i have no idea what the labels are on the l96. i thought thay were hektopascals. just curious.

[joecar]

on second thought, i have no idea what the labels are on the l96. i thought thay were hektopascals. just curious.
I'm not sure what you mean...?

The axis is on kPa...

post a screenshot of what you're seeing.

~ posted by phone ~

[dian]

under l96 i see labels from 128 to 768. the values in the tables are different. but i probably misunderstend something.

[joecar]

20465

This appears to be the correct file for the injectors in question


under l96 i see labels from 128 to 768. the values in the tables are different. but i probably misunderstend something.
In the tune file attached to post #132 above, the axis of table B4001 has those labels.

Those labels are injector pressure delta (difference from top to bottom of injector) in kPa.

[joecar]

So if rail pressure measures 400 kPa (58 psi) (i.e. gauge pressure is 400 kPa, so absolute pressure is 500 kPa)

then injector pressure delta = 500 - MAP

so then the usable range of the axis on B4001 are as follows:


NA: 408 to 468 kPa (400 kPa has to be interpolated by ECM)
1-bar boost: 308 to 468 kPa
2-bar boost: 208 to 468 kPa

[spedracr93]

In the spreadsheets, the LS1B paste-able tables are labelled.

The tables in these spreadsheets are great, but don't the numbers only work if the Fuel Rail Pressure is 58 psi?

Is there a conversion possible to use LS3 injector data at a different Fuel Rail Pressure? Say... 44 psi?

[joecar]

Yes 58 psi.

You can scale the IFR table using by multiplying by sqrt(44/58).

[spedracr93]

Yes 58 psi.

You can scale the IFR table using by multiplying by sqrt(44/58).

That makes a large difference. Thanks for the formula!

58 to 44 is a 12.9% difference.

Can rail pressure affect Minimum Injector Pulse Width? I realize it's a measure of opening time, but it seems like the volume injected at a lower pressure would be less within that time and a compensation could be to modify that minimum time.

[joecar]

That makes a large difference. Thanks for the formula!

58 to 44 is a 12.9% difference.
Yes, scales by 0.871.



Can rail pressure affect Minimum Injector Pulse Width? I realize it's a measure of opening time, but it seems like the volume injected at a lower pressure would be less within that time and a compensation could be to modify that minimum time.It can... I don't know how to calculate the new minimum.