cable to DBW swap?

[Aloicious]

Hey Mike, so I'm thinking in the future here, but with your 24x setup, what all is required to swap to a drive by wire setup?

I'm thinking I'd need at least:
DBW TB
Pedal assembly
TAC
wiring stuff

am I missing something here? this will be with my '96 C1500 L31 in my sig. I'd love to use one of your TB's but it wouldn't work with my whipple setup, however a LS1 style DBW TB should bolt right up. I would be getting the wiring/harness from you though. I may be able to grab a '02 vette TB and pedal setup, and it looks like you have all the pigtails/harness equipment for that.

I'm also concerned how one would go about wiring up the TAC/PCM with the needed cruise control signals? I would think it wouldn't be too hard, I could probably just pull the signals going to the current cable driven cruize control module?

[S10Wildside]

Let's say your starting point is an engine already running with the 12200411 LS1 PCM with 24x reluctor. Converting to electronic throttle goes something like this...

- remove the three TPS wires from the PCM (or leave unplugged)
- remove the four IAC wires from the PCM (or leave unplugged)
- add the 16 way TAC connector (includes 6 wire TPS, 2 wire TB motor, ignition, ground, serial data to PCM, and cruise inputs)
- mount electronic pedal
- plug in TAC to pedal harness

Connecting Cruise Control for Corvette Automatic Transmission Calibration
Cruise control is operated by the PURPLE brake switch wire, LT BLUE stop lamp wire, and three cruise control signal wires from the TAC module. The PURPLE brake switch wire must receive 12v ignition power when the brake pedal is not depressed. The LT BLUE stop lamp wire must receive 12v ignition power when the brake pedal is depressed only. The cruise control signal wires are expecting 12v ignition power for operation. The Cruise ON signal must always receive 12v when cruise is ON and no voltage when OFF. The Set/Coast and Accel/Resume signals are pulsed 12v for operation.

Connecting Cruise Control for 99-02 Truck Automatic Transmission Calibration
See above.

Connecting Cruise Control for Corvette Manual Transmission Calibration
Cruise control is operated by the GRAY clutch switch wire, LT BLUE stop lamp wire, and three cruise control signal wires from the TAC module. The GRAY clutch switch wire must receive 12v ignition power when the clutch pedal is not depressed. The LT BLUE stop lamp wire must receive 12v ignition power when the brake pedal is depressed only. The cruise control signal wires are expecting 12v ignition power for operation. The Cruise ON signal must always receive 12v when cruise is ON and no voltage when OFF. The Set/Coast and Accel/Resume signals are pulsed 12v for operation.

Connecting Cruise Control for 99-02 Truck Manual Transmission Calibration
I'm not so sure that there was a truck application with manual transmission and electronic throttle (for the 512k PCM, 99-02).

ATTENTION VORTEC INTAKE MANIFOLD USERS
Save some cash by using the truck equipment (for example 2002 6.0L Cadillac Escalade). The Corvette equipment new is significantly more expensive than purchasing the truck equipment. The Vortec manifold will accept either throttle body.

Here are the LS1/Vortec type electronic throttle bodies. The one on the top is 99-02 truck and the one on the bottom is the LS1/LS6 Corvette.

http://www.eficonnection.com/coilpercylinder/LS1_DBW_Comparison.jpg

What's the difference? The truck throttle body is intended to be used with the 99-02 truck Throttle Actuator Control module (TAC) and truck pedal. This equipment avoids the "Corvette" surcharge and costs about $300 less than the Corvette TAC and pedal. The truck TAC and Corvette TAC look identical, but they're internally a little different.

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/images/TAC_200x152.jpg http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/images/truck_pedal_200x149.jpg

[S10Wildside]

Someone is going to ask, "The 2003 and newer TAC modules are plentiful in the wrecking yards. Will they work with the 12200411 LS1 PCM?".

No, I don't think so. These modules are used with the same pedal truck pedal assembly, but with different PCM (1mb) and different throttle body.

Unfortunately the 99-02 truck TAC modules are difficult to find used.

[S10Wildside]

Someone may also ask, "Since the truck ETC equipment is less expensive, why are the electronic TPI/LT1 throttle bodies using Corvette equipment?"

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/images/24xThrottleBodyLineUp_400w.jpg

Several reasons...
- much of the CNC work was already available for the Corvette ETC
- for LT1 applications, the Camaro/Firebird alternator will clear the Corvette TB configuration (TB motor on bank 1 side), but the LT1 Corvette alternator has a clearance issue with the motor. I forsee more Camaro/Firebird LT1 accessory configurations than LT1 Corvette accessory configurations.
- the Corvette throttle body cores are easier to come by

[GAMEOVER]

Lots of very good information here!
Thanks...:D

[Aloicious]

Thanks Mike, I'm looking into an ETC swap but it wouldn't be for a while, just trying to get a good understanding of it for the future. I'm still working at completing the 24x swap (along with some other upgrades), but it should be done this week.

[TipsyMcStagger]

Great information!

Here's a question...since the '99-'02 DBW stuff is so hard to come by; I've got a DBW harness from an '02 Denali...but I don't yet have a computer or TB/TAC/Pedal.

What computer and DBW components are the most economical and plentiful to acquire?

TIA!!

Tipsy

[S10Wildside]

Great information!

Here's a question...since the '99-'02 DBW stuff is so hard to come by; I've got a DBW harness from an '02 Denali...but I don't yet have a computer or TB/TAC/Pedal.

What computer and DBW components are the most economical and plentiful to acquire?

TIA!!

Tipsy

I can offer you the following to go along with your 2002 Denali harness...
- used 99-02 truck TAC for $100.00
- used 99-02 truck throttle body for $75.00

You'll still need a truck pedal assembly (these should be all over the wrecking yards).

Your other option is to rework the 2002 harness, get a 2003-newer PCM, a 2003-newer TAC module, and 2003-newer throttle body.

[TipsyMcStagger]

I can offer you the following to go along with your 2002 Denali harness...
- used 99-02 truck TAC for $100.00
- used 99-02 truck throttle body for $75.00

You'll still need a truck pedal assembly (these should be all over the wrecking yards).

Your other option is to rework the 2002 harness, get a 2003-newer PCM, a 2003-newer TAC module, and 2003-newer throttle body.Thanks...not quite ready to collect more parts. Just trying to get educated.

I plan to rework the harness myself. Any input on what needs to be modified on the '02 harness to make it compatible with the '03+ PCM and components?

Tipsy

[MSURacing]

Hey on a side note, if anyone would like to do the 2003 - 2007 8 pin 1 connector throttle body, using the 1mb computer, I have the harness to go between the ECM, TAC module and the Throttle body, $99.
It comes with the pins labeled to be put into the PCM connectors and a power and ground ring.

[Aloicious]

further questions:
as I understand it, the earlier setups used the external TAC module, however the newer LS2/etc 58x based reluctor ECM's have the TAC module built into them, correct? so if someone with a SBC, like me, wanted to do this, I could pull out my 24x reluctor that I've already installed, and put in your new 58x reluctor, and swap to an LS2 ECM to make use of the internal TAC module, then all that would be needed is the pedal assembly, and correct TB, this would make use of the PCM controlled cruize control and other stuff, right? though I'm guessing I'd have to wire some of the cruise control wiring from the brake pedal switch to the PCM or something? Hmmm.....maybe I could have an 1996 E38 controlled truck....heh :rockon:

edit- nix that, I just read that the 58x conversion with gen IV controllers don't support cruise control on the due to the CAN/BCM setup. sounds like keeping the 24x and looking for the correct TAC/etc is still the way to go.

[S10Wildside]

further questions:
as I understand it, the earlier setups used the external TAC module, however the newer LS2/etc 58x based reluctor ECM's have the TAC module built into them, correct?
Yes


so if someone with a SBC, like me, wanted to do this, I could pull out my 24x reluctor that I've already installed, and put in your new 58x reluctor, and swap to an LS2 ECM to make use of the internal TAC module, then all that would be needed is the pedal assembly, and correct TB
You also need to use a 4x cam signal. I don't have a pic of our production pieces, but here is the prototype that was used for production.

http://www.eficonnection.com/58x/images/4xdistributor.jpg


this would make use of the PCM controlled cruize control and other stuff, right? though I'm guessing I'd have to wire some of the cruise control wiring from the brake pedal switch to the PCM or something? Hmmm.....maybe I could have an 1996 E38 controlled truck....heh :rockon

edit- nix that, I just read that the 58x conversion with gen IV controllers don't support cruise control on the due to the CAN/BCM setup. sounds like keeping the 24x and looking for the correct TAC/etc is still the way to go.
You got it.

[S10Wildside]

AND......with a big thanks to Ross......closed loop is now functional!

EFILive does not currently expose the injector to bank assignment table for the Gen IV ECMs. EFILive came through to let us test this table and we verified functional fuel trims on our 58x 454ci Ram Jet engine last Monday.

Gotta love EFILive! :cheers:

Now if only we can get Craig Moates to make an E38 emulator.

[Aloicious]

AND......with a big thanks to Ross......closed loop is now functional!

EFILive does not currently expose the injector to bank assignment table for the Gen IV ECMs. EFILive came through to let us test this table and we verified functional fuel trims on our 58x 454ci Ram Jet engine last Monday.

Gotta love EFILive! :cheers:

Now if only we can get Craig Moates to make an E38 emulator.

That is cool, Ross, and everyone else here is a BIG reason to choose EFILive.

if we could somehow get cruize control working I'd swap to the 58x easy. but I don't see that in the near future with the BCM issues.

[Aloicious]

okay, HERE's a question for you....I know some of the early LS2 motors (2005 GTO and maybe vette?) actually used a 24x reluctor but with the newer PCM's, did these vehicles run the integrated TAC, or were they still external? (unless I'm mistaken I think these were the E40's?)

[S10Wildside]

okay, HERE's a question for you....I know some of the early LS2 motors (2005 GTO and maybe vette?) actually used a 24x reluctor but with the newer PCM's, did these vehicles run the integrated TAC, or were they still external? (unless I'm mistaken I think these were the E40's?)

The early LS2 with 24x reluctor uses the E40 ECM. Same cruise control issues.

[Aloicious]

The early LS2 with 24x reluctor uses the E40 ECM. Same cruise control issues.

so theoretically with the 24x reluctor I already have, I could run an E40, but still wouldn't have the cruise control due to the BCM/CAN interface.

does the E40/24x require a 4x cam signal too?

[samh_08]

Keep the info coming...Good info to have for us custom swapper guys!

[S10Wildside]

so theoretically with the 24x reluctor I already have, I could run an E40, but still wouldn't have the cruise control due to the BCM/CAN interface.
The 2005 SSR is the (only?) E40 application with cruise control going directly to the ECM. Calibrations are available as automatic or manual transmission. If you don't source an SSR E40 ECM, you can send it in for a GM TIS-SPS flash (http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/GMCalibrationServices.aspx). You cannot use EFILive to flash a 2005 SSR calibration in a 2005 GTO E40 ECM (and so on).


does the E40/24x require a 4x cam signal too?
The E40 (as GM has used it in all production vehicles) requires 24x crank and 1x cam.

[ScarabEpic22]

Mike do the 5.3L and 6.0L TrailBlazer/Envoys from 05-06 that run the E40 have the same cruise setup as the SSR? I ask because the SSR and TB/Voy are close cousins, the SSR is a modified long wheelbase TrailBlazer and they share lots of parts. Thinking this might allow a few more ECM options for everyone if it is indeed true.

[S10Wildside]

Mike do the 5.3L and 6.0L TrailBlazer/Envoys from 05-06 that run the E40 have the same cruise setup as the SSR?
I don't know.

[L31Sleeper]

Is it possible to have a DBW set up with a 4x reluctor ??

[S10Wildside]

Is it possible to have a DBW set up with a 4x reluctor ??
No, but if you could identify all of the electronic throttle tables not exposed in EFILive...and come up with a .CAX file...then it might be possible.

Hmm...or I wonder what would happen if you started with an LS1 Corvette calibration and then changed the Vehicle Platform table's Low Resolution Crank value to "Yes". So the question then becomes, what happens in the calibration when this value is changed? Does it enable single coil and distributor ignition?

Speaking of the LS1/LS6 Corvette, there has been one crazy national backorder on the throttle actuator control module. I sure hope my module doesn't go bad anytime soon.

[schwoch1]

Speaking of the LS1/LS6 Corvette, there has been one crazy national backorder on the throttle actuator control module. I sure hope my module doesn't go bad anytime soon.

Must be from all them people doing DBW conversions on their TPI and LT1 engines with a kit from some company in PA.... :)
Or it is because maybe GM screwed some vendors with the whole bankruptcy thing, or at least that is what my local dealer keeps saying!!! Whatever it is, hope it gets resolved soon!!!

Mike

[S10Wildside]

Electronic throttle TPI/LT1 is not in demand. It's too expensive for most conversions. The E40 alternative gets around the expensive LS1 TAC, but adds the cost of the E40 and GM TIS-SPS flash. So you really don't come out ahead. As long as the TPI/LT1 electronic throttle body remains billet CNC construction and requires disassembly of a good LS1 throttle body, it's going to remain more of a novelty...and I'll continue to hear the criticism about its price.

Speaking of criticism, someone over at LS1tech.com dropped the F-bomb today about how greedy EFI Connection is. There is so much misunderstanding about the cost of high quality, low quantity (compared to GM products), production.

[schwoch1]

Electronic throttle TPI/LT1 is not in demand. It's too expensive for most conversions. The E40 alternative gets around the expensive LS1 TAC, but adds the cost of the E40 and GM TIS-SPS flash. So you really don't come out ahead. As long as the TPI/LT1 electronic throttle body remains billet CNC construction and requires disassembly of a good LS1 throttle body, it's going to remain more of a novelty...and I'll continue to hear the criticism about its price.
Yah, people can be funny like that, they like the concept but don't want to pay for it. In this day and age of outsourcing to China for damn near everything, people are used to/expect dirt cheap prices. I would love to swap to DBW on my '71 GMC, but again, the cable works great especially since I got the cruise up and going!!!
BTW, I was being sarcastic in my last post, wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers!!!

Mike

[S10Wildside]

Yah, people can be funny like that, they like the concept but don't want to pay for it. In this day and age of outsourcing to China for damn near everything, people are used to/expect dirt cheap prices. I would love to swap to DBW on my '71 GMC, but again, the cable works great especially since I got the cruise up and going!!!
BTW, I was being sarcastic in my last post, wasn't trying to ruffle any feathers!!!

Mike

Understood. And yes, I see plenty examples of China products...disguised as some of the top name brands in your Summit catalog. What most don't know is that the profit margin of these large outfits (with China products) greatly exceeds the profit margin of low volume CNC products made in the USA.

[L31Sleeper]

Speaking of criticism, someone over at LS1tech.com dropped the F-bomb today about how greedy EFI Connection is. There is so much misunderstanding about the cost of high quality, low quantity (compared to GM products), production.

Don't worry about that Mike I have always thought your pricing (while sometimes high) is very appropriate !!
I've always received great service !!!

-Justin

[Aloicious]

yeah I agree, the cost is somewhat high for the 24x stuff. but IMO its worth it and justified. random people like that sometimes don't understand what it takes to develop and manufacture a product of high quality, and with exceptional service to back it up.

[lq9nissan]

Well Said

[ScarabEpic22]

And for all the LT1 guys hating OptiSpark, the cost to them is WELL worth it so they're not stuck on the side of the road (Mike wasnt it you that said its happened to you?)!

[S10Wildside]

And for all the LT1 guys hating OptiSpark, the cost to them is WELL worth it so they're not stuck on the side of the road (Mike wasnt it you that said its happened to you?)! Not me, but when Mark or I drive by shop with a Caprice, Roadmaster, Fleetwood, Camaro, Firebird in the park lot we say "must be optispark".

[S10Wildside]

So what do you guys think about electronic throttle with a single coil and distributor? Thoughts about changing the Corvette calibration's high resolution crank to low resolution? Maybe I'll try it out this year.

[ScarabEpic22]

Not me, but when Mark or I drive by shop with a Caprice, Roadmaster, Fleetwood, Camaro, Firebird in the park lot we say "must be optispark".

Ah crap, sorry Mike I was talking about the other Mike in this thread (schwoch1)! My bad.

Probably true though, I assume LT1s used in marine applications in 97 have OptiSpark still? If so my friends are gonna love it with their MasterCraft craps out, least its been running strong for 13 years now.


So what do you guys think about electronic throttle with a single coil and distributor? Thoughts about changing the Corvette calibration's high resolution crank to low resolution? Maybe I'll try it out this year.

Interesting, does anyone know if the actual code for low resolution crank exists in a Vette OS? I thought thats why the Vortec Black Box guys using a LS1 PCM swap use an Express Van tune because it has the low resolution crank and no other OS does (maybe Blazers with the 4.3, but no V8s)?

[schwoch1]

And for all the LT1 guys hating OptiSpark, the cost to them is WELL worth it so they're not stuck on the side of the road (Mike wasnt it you that said its happened to you?)!
Twice to be exact, barely made it to the shop on one and walked with the second failure. One was a brandy new Delphi unit and the other was a Cardone reman... the cardone actually made it longer before the bearing shit out!!! Wasn't going for the third time...... Thank god EFI Connection had their setup hot off the press!!! I thank Mike every day the truck starts and don't leave me stranded!!!

Mike

[Aloicious]

mine isn't an LTx optispark, but my POS vortec distributor setup has left me stranded before as well. I'm glad I did the 24x setup. it was WELL worth it to me too.

[kham383]

Hey Miike with the dbw setup on the e38 if i am using all the complete dash,wiring, bcm,pim,pedals & everything else from the donner car the cruise should still work right?
Donner was manual 2006 Holden hsv gto coupe with the e40ecu and have rewired to the e38 ecu body plug and have the ecu with the right configuration to suit.
Also would there be any ill effects by installing the throttle body straight down onto a modified 4bbl intake with an adapter instead of using one of those elbows.
thanks Ron.

[S10Wildside]

Hey Miike with the dbw setup on the e38 if i am using all the complete dash,wiring, bcm,pim,pedals & everything else from the donner car the cruise should still work right?
I can't speak from experience, but it all sounds good to me.


would there be any ill effects by installing the throttle body straight down onto a modified 4bbl intake with an adapter instead of using one of those elbows.
thanks Ron.
I'm not the right guy to ask, but I think it will work.

[schwoch1]

Hey Miike with the dbw setup on the e38 if i am using all the complete dash,wiring, bcm,pim,pedals & everything else from the donner car the cruise should still work right?
Donner was manual 2006 Holden hsv gto coupe with the e40ecu and have rewired to the e38 ecu body plug and have the ecu with the right configuration to suit.
Also would there be any ill effects by installing the throttle body straight down onto a modified 4bbl intake with an adapter instead of using one of those elbows.
thanks Ron.

I also agree, if you have all the appropiate inputs to the PCM, cruise should work.
As far as mounting the throttle body on top of intake, other than complicating the plumbing to the air cleaner, I have done it before and it works fine!!!
Good Luck
Mike