7.4L- 0411ecm - WAY! TOO RICH AT CRANKING

[stroker97k1500]

To give a little background on my setup, it is a 2000 model 454 with a 0411 ecm put in a 97k1500 truck with a custom wiring harness ect. The ve table was corrected with auto-ve with efilive and the spark table is so so... but don't have any spk retard.... the injector tables have been corrected, cylinder volume as well,and also the maf is set to fail and "non emissions" hoping to avoid the MAF from being "not" calibrated perfectly. I used a spread sheet to get my cranking ve table in line but the table B3604 has been played with by me A LOT as well as other parameters like throttle cracker,

The problem I have is that it will not start (is too rich)without pushing the throttle all the way to the floor while cranking to clear the flood....but once it is running it runs just fine. I have played with every crank/start parameter I could find but have not gotten anywhere. Any opinions or suggestions would be greatly appreciated to help with pointing me in the right direction of how to correct this issue.
Thanks,
Robby

ps my tune is attached

[hquick]

Is there a base, stock tume we can look at Robby?

[joecar]

Also, get these fixed (back into range):

{A0001} Forced Octane Scaler Percentage, was out of range when loaded.
{A0002} Octane Scaler Limiter, was out of range when loaded.

[joecar]

In tunetool go Edit->Properties->Display and check that fueling units are AFR or EQ and not Lambda.

B3647: the lean block (65kPa-100kPa, 4800rpm-5600rpm) is very bad... especially since your B3618 is all stoich.

B5001: is wrong, and it seems you're not failing the MAF, see C6001 below.
C2903: set this to 1.
C6001: no, do not set P0101-P0103 to non-emissions; to fail the MAF the PCM must see one of these 3 DTC's; set those to 1-trip.
The PCM has to see one of P0101, P0102, P0103 in order to fail the MAF.

B5913, B5914: these don't look right...?


Additional comments:
D0960-D0962: set these to 100% all across (otherwise they will interfere with the PT up/down shift tables).

:)

[joecar]

Your file indicates that the MAF is not being failed (C6001: P0101-P0103 set to non-emissions)...
the PCM is still using the MAF table which has excessively high airflow values so the PCM is flooding the engine.

[stroker97k1500]

Is there a base, stock tume we can look at Robby?
Howard,
Here are the 2 tunes I used,(1 from the 454 vortech black box)(one is he base 350 van tune for the 0411) to make one for the 454 using the 0411. I took the injector flow rate straight from the "454 vortech" black box tune and the maf table was different but I interpolated the values since the scale was a bit different b/w the 2 and I have had the maf unplugged all together.

Thank You Joecar for the comments and suggestions. yes I checked again, it was set as afr and not lambada or eq ratio. I went back and made those adjustments you suggested during lunch,except the spark tables and the forced octane part ... I will work on that one tonight, I was thinking it was disabled in the tune but I will look again. It still did the same thing when trying to start up as I left to go home from work.

BTW I have leaned out all the tables for startup fuel modifiers that I could find but none have made any headway really. I also had this same startup issue before copying the "tune" to the cos3 format. if this helps any?
Thanks,
Robby
to be continued

[stroker97k1500]

I changed around A LOT of calibrations on the crank/start from an 8.1L engine and modified the high/low spark tables, copied the maf table from the 8.1L just for the hell of it (AND I saw what you meant about the obscene #'s on the maf table MAN I forget to put the decimal point in the correct place evidently... oops!) ...but not much luck with all that.... BUT THEN!!!!! I added more timing to the p/n idle areas and also the in gear base timing areas as well...... THEN the airflow friction and correction table I added maybe 30% ? or so to those and leaned out some more fueling areas at cranking added 2% to the iac steps table and it fired up for its first time all by itself with no help of the throttle pedal!!! I was excited!!!!
The real test will be more trials tomorrow but SOME progress was made...

BTW has anyone ever noticed that when the transition from OL to CL the motor idles more roughly?
Thanks again!
Robby
ps... here's the tune that made it start.... still in progress though

[mr.prick]

BTW has anyone ever noticed that when the transition from OL to CL the motor idles more roughly?

AFR is probably a little lean after CL first starts.
After reseting LTFTs AFR can get a little lean until LTFTs are learned.

[joecar]

If your PE is set to EQ 1.00, then you have to make the last few columns of B3647 richer (sufficiently rich to keep the motor safe).

[stroker97k1500]

Thanks man for your suggestions and the other comments as well .. I did make them a bit richer on the ve table. I have an update unfortunately... it restarts just fine within 2 minutes of shutting off the engine and then restarting it..... if you come back to it later more minutes or hours/days later it floods out the engine while cranking still until it spins over 10-20 revolutions from hat I can tell.
I will do some more reading on here to see if I can find more answers.
suggestions still welcome.
Thanks,
Robby

current tune below

[joecar]

Robby, are IAT and ECT showing sensible values...?

[stroker97k1500]

Robby, are IAT and ECT showing sensible values...?

They are within sensible range while logging going down the road.... haven't looked at it "not running" but key on yet though.

I will attach my last log file from tonight below.

In the last tune posted on here I leaned the cranking ve table 20% more and it didn't seem to change anything... I bought a new fuel pressure guage... I might see if the fuel pressure is staying up while key is off of see how long it takes to bleed off. Are I might see if I can "open" up the iac more to allow more air in to it during cranking to see if that helps if I can figure out how to do that. The tables were previously set up for a 350 in a van so maybe there is a airflow table or count(s) for the iac where its not allowing in enough air?
Just brainstorming I guess.

[LS1_Dragster]

Try my tune just for kicks, I'm sure it will need a lot of changes but for now adjust the B4001 and B0101 to match yours and give it a try. Mine is a 98 454 with holley throttle body running CLSD mode.

I looked at your log and to me the IAC is too high at 133 at idle so I would open your throttle blade to get it down to 30-40 at idle(you must do this with my tune). Also, it looks like your timing is pretty low. I'm not sure what cam you have. Also there are some errors that need to be fixed.

I just noticed your B3647 is out of whack too.

I dont see any wideband O2 PID in your log, what are you using?

Lee

[hquick]

Robby....I don't see your commanded fuelling change from 14.68 (stoich) throughout that entire log..even at high KPA WOT ????

EDIT: Logging too many channels also Rob. (27). Try and knock it down to 24 or less.

[LS1_Dragster]

Yup, B3647 is not setup correctly.....

[hquick]

PE {B3601} is set to stoich (14.68) across the board. Any reason for this?

[LS1_Dragster]

You need to set that to stoich so that it will run semi-open loop, then the commanded fuel is done with B3647

[hquick]

Really....I never knew that.
I thought you just set the areas in the B3647 to stoich...that you want to run in SOL.
Even when looking at the log and comparing with the tune....when he's hitting cells in the commanded table les than 14.68...his log is still saying 14.68.
Am I missing something? At 99Kpa and 100% TPS I wouldn't think stoich was a good idea?

[LS1_Dragster]

Your not missing anything, he's just got it all wrong! This is why I think he should try my tune. It will still need to be customized to his engine but all the parameters are correct.

Load my tune then load his as an alternate and look at the tables. When B3647 and B3601 are equal and B3618 are stoich the computer will run semi-open loop meaning it will use the STRIM's to maintain stoich, the LTRIM's are no longer used at all. There are more settings then I mentioned to get semi-open loop working and that's covered in the manual.

Then use B3647 to command your AFR, no more PE mode. This is very tunable through out the RPM and MAP range and to me is the perfect way to go. Very easy to always command the AFR the engine likes under various driving conditions.

[joecar]

B3618 does not have to be EQ 1.00 (same AFR as B3601) for SOL to enable...

SOL enables from the EQ 1.00 cells in B3647 (or in B3605 if B4206 is enabled) if those cells are the richest of the enabled tables at that moment...

B3618 enables when the PE enablers B3608-B3816 are met, but B3618 provides the commanded EQ (or AFR) only if it is the richest of all the enabled tables.

Setting B3618 to EQ 1.00 does not "disable" PE... it merely makes it leaner than the high MAP columns of B3647 or B3605.

:)

[joecar]

Yes, very bad to run stoich at any significant load... :bad: :bad:

[hquick]

B3618 does not have to be EQ 1.00 (same AFR as B3601) for SOL to enable...

SOL enables from the EQ 1.00 cells in B3647 (or in B3605 if B4206 is enabled) if those cells are the richest of the enabled tables at that moment...

B3618 enables when the PE enablers B3608-B3816 are met, but B3618 provides the commanded EQ (or AFR) only if it is the richest of all the enabled tables.

Setting B3618 to EQ 1.00 does not "disable" PE... it merely makes it leaner than the high MAP columns of B3647 or B3605.

:)

Thanks Joe.....that was my understanding of how to enable/setup SOL.

[LS1_Dragster]

Splitting hairs!

So why would you ever enable or set B3618 richer then B3645? I'm trying to figure out any benefit from doing that.

Also, by setting B3618 to stoich, B3601 to stoich and setting any cells you want for cruising or idle in B3647 to stoich and then set high MAP area's to anything other then stoich you effectively force the sole fueling curve to use B3647 correct? If so, then doesn't that in simple terms "disable" PE?

Lee

[joecar]

If you have B3647 then you have these options:
- use B3647 to control EQ based on MAP.
- use B3618 to control EQ based on TP.
- both (the richest cells of all the [enabled] tables wins).

You edit B3616 to enable PE based on TP... for example, you may want some PE to kick in at medium load (MAP will be less than 100kPa) perhaps in a particular rpm range... for example (within this example) this PE may be richer than B3647 at at that MAP and may be leaner than B3647 at 100kPa... [when I said 100kPa I mean BARO]...

i.e. it gives you a way to finely control EQ, if you so wish to do so.


If you have B3605 instead of B3647 then you need B3618.


If the PE enablers are enabled, then PE 1.00 will only have effect if B3647 is leaner than PE... otherwise PE has no effect... (sure, it's "disabled")...

Or you can disable one or more of the PE enablers, so PE will never enable.

[joecar]

i.e. B3618 gives you a "mechanical triggered PE" (via TP), whereas B3647 gives you a "MAP triggered PE" (via high MAP columns).

If you had a Holley 4150 you would choose between mechanical secondary or vaccum secondary, altho this analogy is not technically correct...

(the accelerator pump would be more like PE, whereas the secondary venturi allows added airmass/fuelmass).

[stroker97k1500]

Thanks guys,
I will try to load Lee's tune tomorrow with my parameters, IFR, CYL volume, tire size, rear end ratio, ve table, etc and see what happens..... Thank you for the input... I think I also have a bad fuel pressure regulator and/or injectors bad since the fuel pressure is bleeding off within 2-3 mins after the key is turned off.
I will keep you guys posted
Robby

[LS1_Dragster]

Robby, my fuel pressure also bleeds off in a few minutes, in fact I can watch it!

Joecar - I havent been able to come up with any good reason I would ever use both parameters at the same time! I guess I'm getting too old.....

Lee

[stroker97k1500]

Robby, my fuel pressure also bleeds off in a few minutes, in fact I can watch it!

Joecar - I havent been able to come up with any good reason I would ever use both parameters at the same time! I guess I'm getting too old.....

Lee
I tried your tune with some of my parameters changed(you can see which ones in the history of the attached file if you wish) but it would not idle at all.... I could load my tune in and it idled/ran fine.....
I did an experiment and took the upper intake plenum off, and stuffed blue shop paper towels down each runner and disconnected the FPR vacuum line and put a blue paper towel there and found that #4 injector is leaking a lot with key on prime with the injector harness to the ecm disconnected.
The pictures are at this link below
http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=81278#81278

I am curious to learn more and will keep looking on here for more ideas to see what you guys were saying about the richer than stoich under loads... and will compare my stock van tune to what I currently have now.... maybe this will give me an idea of what you guys mean.
The two tunes attached are what I used the first is Lees tune with my changes per my setup... the last one is the one that the truck is running now

[stroker97k1500]

Does this tune look "safe" with the mixtures like you guys were referring to?

[LS1_Dragster]

One of the issues is your throttle blade is not open enough. I knew you would have to crank on it to work with my tune. If you look at all your air parameters you are adding a ton more air then I am. Plus I like the IAC down in the 30 range. Also, my throttle body is a Holley so you might have to add air to my tune.

Would it idle if you kept your foot on it? Also, is your MAF unplugged?

By the way, the was a semi-open loop tune so LTRIM and closed loop enable should not of been changed.

[stroker97k1500]

[QUOTE=LS1_Dragster;107351]One of the issues is your throttle blade is not open enough. I knew you would have to crank on it to work with my tune. If you look at all your air parameters you are adding a ton more air then I am. Plus I like the IAC down in the 30 range. Also, my throttle body is a Holley so you might have to add air to my tune.

Would it idle if you kept your foot on it? Also, is your MAF unplugged?

By the way, the was a semi-open loop tune so LTRIM and closed loop enable should not of been changed.[/QUOTE

Yes the MAF is unplugged
I will be ordering a new injector to replace my #4 injector that leaks down fuel pressure into that cylinder, and then upon re-assembly I will crack open the throttle blade some more and play with the airflow at idle and try your tune again just to see what happens.
Thanks for the your input!
Robby

[stroker97k1500]

The flooded re-start issue is now fixed. The #4 injector was filling the intake with fuel fumes and that cylinder. I also replace the fuel pressure regulator and the lower intake manifold with a new one as well while I had it off.

Thank you guys for your input!
Robby