where is my knock coming from?

[whackem04]

can someone look and see if they can figure out where its coming from? I have never seen it go above 8 but i dont want any, please help. And what is BURST KNOCK?

[joecar]

Hi whackedm04,

That's definitely knock shown in your log (sawtooth pattern)... and it sustained for about 9 seconds... could you hear it knock...?

Burst Knock Retard is what the PCM predicts it should remove from ignition timing to avoid knocking... BKR does not show up on the KR pid in the log, it is merely subtracted from timing and you will see the SPARKADV pid drop a few degrees.

I can't really tell if you're running lean at WOT (but it seems so from looking at the pid O2S11-OS2V in your log... but, do not rely on the NBO2 sensors to tell you the AFR at WOT... you will need a wideband for this).

Can you capture another log with these pids (but if you hear it knocking, back off immediately, you already know knock damages your motor):
VSS
RPM
TP
DYNCYLAIR or DYNCYLAIR_DMA
DYNAIR
MAF
MAP
IAT
ECT
AFR or EQIVRATIO
SPARKADV
KR
HO2S11 (not HO2S12 or HO2S22)
HO2S21 (not HO2S12 or HO2S22)
LONGFT1
LONGFT2
maybe SHORTFT1
maybe SHORTFT2

Keep the pid channel count to 24 or fewer channels... you can delete the other pids.

Joe
:)

[joecar]

Also if oil is being ingested thru PCV plumbing, this will help the motor to knock.

[whackem04]

Thanks for checking it out. Im going to log on my way to work and ill post after that. As for the knock I could not hear it only see it when im driving. I also have rerouted all PCV to a catch can and filter and the egr is gone.

[whackem04]

here is the log with all the pid's
THANKS

[hquick]

Post your tune also.
Looking at that....you are stoich right up to and around 100kpa and 60% throttle.
Sounds lean to me.

[joecar]

You should log HO2S21 instead of HO2S12...

yeah ;) that's tricky... the notation works like this:

HO2Sxy

x = bank number: 1=LHS (cyl# 1,3,5,7), 2=RHS (cyl# 2,4,6,8).
y = sensor location: 1=front (before cat), 2=rear (after cat).

[joecar]

You log shows several things...

at significantly large throttle:
- HO2S11 indicates you are probably quite lean;
- LTFT's are adding about 10% (and that's not enough);
- commanded AFR is staying at stoich until TP hits 89%;
- acceleration seems very sluggish (regardless of being a a truck);

sounds to me like:
- PE is not enabling or insufficient;
- IFR, VE, MAF are not corrected;

I agree with Howard.

[whackem04]

here is the tune. You guys are awesome. Thanks for all your input.
Ill switch the o2's and post a log.
Can my tranny cause knock cuz it only seems to knock when im in a part throttle to accel.

[hquick]

Can my tranny cause knock cuz it only seems to knock when im in a part throttle to accel.
I'm not sure....but if it was loaded up at low rev's...yes.

[joecar]

Generally:
- light platform (car): TCC can be locked sooner and kept locked most of the time;
- heavy platform (truck): TCC is usually locked later and unlocked sooner... this is done to avoid knock due to PT load.


In your file:
- B3616: set the 90% portion to 65%, and maybe the 50% portion to 35%... this will get PE enabled sooner making the AFR richer which may fix some of your knock.

Also:
- D0961, D0962: set to 100% to avoid interfering with PT up/down shift tables.

[hquick]

I was thinking the same about the PE Joe...and I guess doing that would tell us one way or another if fuelling is the issue.
I compared those settings in his tune with those of a stock 'similar' tune and the stock tune is a little more conservative than what he has presently.
The truck is pretty close to stock right?

[whackem04]

stock yes as far as the bottom end but the top has been tweaked with cam and valvetrain work , 160 deg tstat MAF descreened
thanks ill make the changes and let you know

[hquick]

I wouldn't think cam and valve train would make that much of a difference (KR wise) compared to stock.
Descreening the MAF probably wasn't the best idea.
Have you been through the AutoVE process and also the AutoMAF process?

[whackem04]

i tried but get lost and dont have a wbo2. No real explaination on how to use nbo2.
im new and learning on my daily truck. where is the automaf process at?

[hquick]

Have a read of this thread.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=11043&highlight=auto+maf

A wideband really is a necessary tool.
I use the PLX which really aren't too expensive.

[whackem04]

these are the logs from this morning. I saw more knock more consistently today then before. I also logged the tcc state to try and see if that is doing it.

[hquick]

Did you make the changes Joe suggested?

[whackem04]

yes i did all of them

[hquick]

Hmmm...one of my posts didn't appear.
Looking at those logs, were the changes to PE made before ALL of the logs? The 3rd and 4th logs look best...and it seems you're getting richer sooner in those two logs as compared with the first two.

[hquick]

I see your TCC never seems to unlock???

[whackem04]

all of these logs are from the same tune as its still in the truck. the knock seems to happen when im in low throttle and at about 55 or 60 and want to speed up. yea i set the tcc like that for better mileage in 4th gear

[hquick]

Well....Joe is the trans guy....but I would say your trans is loading up and that's causing the KR.

[hquick]

If you want to test it....try cruising along at 55 or so..take your foot off the accelerator, tap your foot on the brake to release the TCC and then accelerate. If what I think is correct....you won't see any KR.

[whackem04]

ill will try on my way home tonight and let you know

[hquick]

Can you drop a couple of PID's and log current gear?

[whackem04]

sure thanks for all your help

[joecar]

Drop these pids: SHORTFT1, SHORTFT2.

Add these pids: GEAR, MFTOTAL (your pid channel count should still be 24).

[joecar]

If you want to test it....try cruising along at 55 or so..take your foot off the accelerator, tap your foot on the brake to release the TCC and then accelerate. If what I think is correct....you won't see any KR.Howard, good test.

Whackem04, please do this.

[whackem04]

no prob

[whackem04]

i tried logging on my way home but it only logged like 1 or 2 pids? i dont know what happened? im running the new version.

[hquick]

I see all the relevant PID's.
Seems when your TCC is locked....KR. TCC unlocked as you start to accelerate...no KR.

[whackem04]

so what should i change in the tranny to fix? here is the listof the tranny.

[hquick]

so what should i change in the tranny to fix? here is the listof the tranny.

This is where Joe takes over. He's the trans man.

[joecar]

This is where Joe takes over. He's the trans man.
lol... thanks Howard... I'm still learning new things...


so what should i change in the tranny to fix? here is the listof the tranny.
Try this:

- D1003: raise the low portion a little (for a given TP apply TCC later):
Normal column
40.414063
40.414063
40.414063
45.875838
50.452865
55.000000
60.000000
66.145528
75.781250
75.781250
75.781250
75.781250
75.781250
75.781250
75.781250
75.781250
75.781250

- D1006: raise the low/mid portion a little (for a given TP, release TCC earlier),
Normal column
35.363281
35.363281
35.363281
40.913213
42.154382
43.395550
44.890067
47.271763
49.653460
52.035156
57.085938
63.656250
70.726563
70.726563
70.726563
70.726563
70.726563

Try those and then make adjustments... always keep D1006 below D1003.


Also:
- D1009: I usually set this to 100% to avoid interfering with D1003/D1006.

[whackem04]

k i set it like you said here is a log. i think your right to a certain degree but i dont know if its all tranny yet or not. i guess more logging is in order.

[joecar]

Yeah, it seems to me there is more to it than just the TCC being locked...

Edit: I somehow had left this part out when I replied...

[hquick]

There's ALOT less KR now than there was before.
When you first accelerated and you saw a tiny amount of KR....you were still stoich until 64% TPS and 98Kpa....I would think that's still a little lean.
Main KR was once again whilst the TCC was 'locked'.

[whackem04]

i made some more changes. does this tune look better? i have a WOT run at the end. is 14.68 really the afr you want or is something better?

[hquick]

I reckon that looks better.
You only seem to be getting KR if you're trying to accelerate when the TCC is either applying or locked.
When you already have a decent RPM before the TCC applies....you don't get any KR.
Try doing a bit more as Joe suggested earlier and applying later....releasing sooner in the lower gears.

[joecar]

Yeah, it seems to me there is more to it than just the TCC being locked...

Edit: I somehow had left this part out when I replied...
The remaining KR might be from being lean at large throttle... see attached pic of your log... the sawtooth KR pattern is an indication that it's real knock/detonation... the NBO2 voltages ~860-870 mV indicate that it's lean for WOT... (however do not rely on NBO2 sensors when in open loop; a wideband would tell you with certainty)... you would have to increase the MAF and VE tables in just those cells used for large throttle...

You should maybe reduce ignition timing first before touching the VE and MAF tables, especially since you don't have a wideband.

WOT AFR target is something like 12.7 for non-boost.

[whackem04]

how does this look to you. Also i have both my pas valve cover nipple and my pcv valve out and free flowed that to a vented catch can. do u think that can do anything?

[hquick]

I still think you're a bit lean. At 68% TPS and 101Kpa you're still stoich.

[joecar]

how does this look to you. Also i have both my pas valve cover nipple and my pcv valve out and free flowed that to a vented catch can. do u think that can do anything?Does it let in any air that the MAF doesn't see...?

Post some pics.

[whackem04]

i checked all air and im not letting anything in. i think its the tune but im still checking. thanks

[whackem04]

still dont know and its still happens

[joecar]

Can you hear it...?

[whackem04]

no never have

[whackem04]

i found this log and at the end, the TC is locked but i still got a knock at the end of the log. What can go clunk to make it go off? Anything in the tune i could change to narrow it down? Any ideas?