E38 VATS will not disable

[v8vegaman]

Hey to anyone interested. I have been working with this E38 for a couple of months now when I get a chance. I have tried to disable VATS many different ways and have followed the advice here on this forum and It appears that there may be further issues. I have a 4.8 liter 58X engine, ls2 intake and TBody. F body pan, corvette brackets pulleys etc. The engine came on a crate and is new. The ecm was ordered through the mail. I have had many programs on it to get it to run. I have had it running well on a test stand with a 2007 corvette manual program. If I try ANY other program it does not run. It cranks good because the vehicle is a 93 vette with the start relay bypassed. I will eventually connect all of the extras but I am really desperate right now to end this awful experience with programming. If I put a stock program from the 2007 vette with the VATS active, it will run for 2 seconds then die. Remove VATS and do the patch and it will start and run. BUT when I do any other program on the thing, I.E. (truck with automatic trans) it will NOT run even for a second. As I scan this issue in the scan tool it continually shows the (Vehicle Theft Deterent 2 Fuel) is still enabled and active, so no fuel injector activity. I have read on here about HPTuners and even willing to try that If I need to, but I want to get this option working. Any help would be great. I just can't do it any more.

[GMPX]

Is there any reason you can't just use the Corvette tune and remap it for the 4.8L?
I'm thinking the problem may be tied in with it looking for a TCM (given the truck tune you test with is an Auto), from that it would also be looking for a message from the TCM to say the trans is in P/N before allowing it to run.

[v8vegaman]

Thank you for responding. Well when the engine is in a test stand I can use the the corvette manual program, but now that it is in a car I need to use the auto trans with a T42 TCM. I'm trying to run a 4L60E. So in that I need to use the automatic program. If the VTD #2 stays enabled, is that correlating with a P/N signal? Is the P/N signal for a safety on these or simply and indicator to the ECM of the idle loaded RPM? This set up is basicaly a stand alone system that will piece by piece be integrated into the 93 corvette electronics (at least where it is able to be), so as it stands now the engine and trans are in a situation like an Austin Healy with no other electronics than the E38 and T42. I do have the P/N switch so that it grounds in Park and Neutral. Thank you for the help, if you can think of more I will try anything.

[GMPX]

ok, now I see.
What you probably need to do is spend some time on Ebay motors and find a vehicle (say a 2007) with your engine / trans combo. I guess that would be an express van.
Once you have found one, PM me the VIN.

[ScarabEpic22]

Any chance you have an 07+ E67 file with OS 12618588 from a Caddy XLR-V?? :D

[v8vegaman]

i have seen some files on holden crazy but I don't know about that specific tune. I hope this helps

Robert

[v8vegaman]

well, just spent another 7.5 hours going over everything in the wiring wiring. I have gone thro9ugh every pid to look at data between the programming that works (manual) vs programming that doesn't (auto). I have used a completely stock ECM and simply pulled the vats out and the thing will not start. I have had the accy voltage hooked up. I have had the brake switch hooked up. I have looked at each line of data in the scans and the only thing that I have not been able to eliminate is a code for imobilization key not programmed and imobilization key not valid until I turn off the codes in the diagnostic pages. I get cam pulses, I get crank pulses, I get spark, I do not get injector pulses at all not even for 1 second. I have poured gas in the tbody and it will run. The throttle body works with the pedal, The data talks from TCM to ECM or rather ECM to TCM then OBD2 connector. I have purchased more licenses to re flash other ecms but.... Now I need to ask... has anyone had these issues before? I have read that one guy used HP tunners and it solved his problem but I have not seen anything since. HP Tunners runs $499 for the basic package with 4 ecm worth of credits. I can't believe that would be the fix for this. It's probably some thing realy obvious but I can't see it.

[minytrker]

I had the same problem. I was trying to run a 6.2 with a TH400 trans using the stock 6.2 tune. I disabled VATS and did the patch and full flash several times. It wouldnt start at all, just spin over. After hours of trouble shooting and tons of phone calls I flashed it with HPT and it fired right up. I even tried it again with efi and it would never start. After the flash with HPT I tuned it with efi. Once running a few other problems vame up with using the auto tune and no trans, in the end I had to use a manual corvette tune.
Now Im not saying HPT will solve your problems, I wouldnt go out and buy it just to flash your car.
PM your contact info and I will help you out.

[GMPX]

I'm not sure what the problems are you are having. There is a shop local to me who does lots of GenIV conversions using the E38, they've never had a no start situation once the VATS was disabled, so please don't rush out and buy HPT thinking that is going to solve your problem, there should be no reason ours would not work.
I'll try to get some files for you to test next week.

[VEGASROBBI]

My 2007 E38 Auto truck tune would not start after applying the VATS patch. I ended up having to ground (through a resistor to emulate the relay trigger) the "starter enable" wire, yellow and black in my case. Hope this helps.

[v8vegaman]

Thank you all for replying. When you did the risistor in place of the start relay, did it work? The last code that I was getting was 0513 and 0633, both seemed to speak of a immobilizer key. probably not a "key" but rather something that it was not seeing. I hit it hard again this evening and still seem to have the same conclusion. I'm not going to rush into anything else, just wait to see if there is a code issue or file issue that GMPX may be able to help with. Any other info is still covetted.

[VEGASROBBI]

Yes, as long as the starter enable wire is grounded it starts fine. My 5.3 is in a Toyota truck so I am not running a BCM, imobilizer key, etc.

It's been a while but if remember correctly when I unground the starter enable wire it throws a number of VAT/VTD codes in the 600 range.

My guess, in my application, is the E38 shuts off noid due to an invalid(unauthorized) crank signal. I get spark, PCM relay activation, fuel pump, etc.

The only thing missing is noid; if I add fuel it runs.

I believe this can be overcome with the appropriate tune or a patch. It only appears to affect conversions with E38's and certain calibrations at this point so not high priority.

Oh, I also had to change the VATS settings to get it to crank every time.

[GMPX]

My 2007 E38 Auto truck tune would not start after applying the VATS patch. I ended up having to ground (through a resistor to emulate the relay trigger) the "starter enable" wire, yellow and black in my case. Hope this helps.Actually, that now rings a bell in my head of needing to do that on some cars. You could also just hook up a relay and cranking input to the ECM to simulate the actual wiring in the GM factory application, but a resistor would also work in place of the relay. I now remember looking in to a way to bypass the starter relay check but I never figured it out. From memory it went deeper than just shutting off some DTC's.

[gmh308]

Have done dozens of these without any hitches.

Maybe some OS's are fussy and some are not re the relay coil being seen there.

Assuming you are totally bypassing the ECM for starter motor operation?

[v8vegaman]

:secret::cucumber:Hey all, just a follow up. I did a set up with the park neutral selector switch, I then set up a relay inline with the starter activation to see if it was the relay being missing or a park neutral switch issue. Well no luck. I did the unthinkable (I didn't want to end up on the evening news or in a psych ward, so I had to) , but it fired right up. Now I am happy but the excitement is offset by the amount of time that was invested in getting it to start. I guess it's called paying the dues for living the dream and I'm ok with that. Thank you all for your input on this. Thank you Thank you.

[v8vegaman]

I don't suppose, given the issues that EFI live would give me a credit toward another license to use on another ECM?

[joecar]

v8vm,

Can you explain what happened...?

[GAMEOVER]

v8vm,

Can you explain what happened...?

X's 2

[v8vegaman]

HPT, i still feel the isues are ME caused but the HPT removed the vats on 3 so far and mostlikely 1 tomorrow. I don't know???

[MSURacing]

Ok, I am having this same exact issue and I have been told the same thing that HP Tuners doesn't have an issue with this. SO........ Here is what I can do. We do have HPT and I will be willing to work with you on getting this right. I will get one running on HPT, and I will send you the cal as loaded from EFI Live.
Is this going to help you fix the issue. I need support on this as I have customers waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gmh308]

Ok, I am having this same exact issue and I have been told the same thing that HP Tuners doesn't have an issue with this. SO........ Here is what I can do. We do have HPT and I will be willing to work with you on getting this right. I will get one running on HPT, and I will send you the cal as loaded from EFI Live.
Is this going to help you fix the issue. I need support on this as I have customers waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

With the trouble some people are having with this, we did some testing.

Got an ECM and did nothing else but apply the EFILive VATS patch. Nothing else was touched. Not even the VATS parameters in the "System" section were touched. No power relays connected, no resistors connected to spoof the relay existence.

Install in car, starts right up and runs.

Some operating systems start first hit of the key. Some take two. This is consistent. The OS's that take two, wont start on the first cranking attempt. Key needs to be returned to the off position for 5 sec, then they start right up on the second attempt.

Another shop that we know has HPT. Tried same with HPT (after navigating how screwed up they get around VIN's and model years which is something that EFILive is free of)...., identical results.

Which OS are you using? We didnt go and test every GM OS there is, only a few.

If this is in a retrofit, are you trying to control any power relays (other than fuel) via the ECM?

Cheers. :cheers:

[MSURacing]

Ok, so I finally got some more time to spend on this.

And wha la, just do the VATS Patch and it worked, OS: 12614088

So, next week, I am going to be trying other OS's.

Oh, I did have to use the power relay and starter relay trick. Maybe I will try to bypass both of them next week and see what will happen.

Thanks for you help guys.

So this brings up the next question, if the other VATS stuff isn't needed to make this stuff work stand alone, why is it there?

Thanks again,

[gmh308]

Ok, so I finally got some more time to spend on this.

And wha la, just do the VATS Patch and it worked, OS: 12614088

So, next week, I am going to be trying other OS's.

Oh, I did have to use the power relay and starter relay trick. Maybe I will try to bypass both of them next week and see what will happen.

Thanks for you help guys.

So this brings up the next question, if the other VATS stuff isn't needed to make this stuff work stand alone, why is it there?

Thanks again,

Well :) GM put it in there. Why EFILive kindly gave access to it, is that for regular production cars the parameters do have their applications.

[GAMEOVER]

Ok, so I finally got some more time to spend on this.

And wha la, just do the VATS Patch and it worked, OS: 12614088

So, next week, I am going to be trying other OS's.

Oh, I did have to use the power relay and starter relay trick. Maybe I will try to bypass both of them next week and see what will happen.

Thanks for you help guys.

So this brings up the next question, if the other VATS stuff isn't needed to make this stuff work stand alone, why is it there?

Thanks again,

MSURacing,

What is the power relay and starter relay trick you are referring to? I gave

up on a project that I was working on(2007 E38 5.3 & TH400 into a 2000

Jeep wrangler).... Won't start! I was actually thinking of buying HP Tuners or

the Lingenfelter TRG-001 58x To 24x Crank Sensor Trigger or Reluctor

Wheel Conversion Module just so I could start it and get it out of my shop....:shock:

The OS i'm working on is 12605898

[gmh308]

MSURacing,

What is the power relay and starter relay trick you are referring to? I gave

up on a project that I was working on(2007 E38 5.3 & TH400 into a 2000

Jeep wrangler).... Won't start! I was actually thinking of buying HP Tuners or

the Lingenfelter TRG-001 58x To 24x Crank Sensor Trigger or Reluctor

Wheel Conversion Module just so I could start it and get it out of my shop....:shock:

The OS i'm working on is 12605898

The TRG001 wont solve any VATS related issues. Though in very hot weather it has been known to mimic VATS shutoff :).

[GMPX]

The TRG001 wont solve any VATS related issues. Though in very hot weather it has been known to mimic VATS shutoff :).:shock: , that doesn't sound good.

Gameover, make sure on the conversion if you are using a T400 or some other non electronic Auto, don't use an Auto ECM tune as the base, for conversions that aren't running with a 4L60E, 6L80E etc (with a T42 / T43) you must use a manual trans file in the ECM or the ECM will be looking for the P/N message from the TCM before it will allow a start.

Cheers,
Ross

[GAMEOVER]

The TRG001 wont solve any VATS related issues. Though in very hot weather it has been known to mimic VATS shutoff :).

I would be using an LS1 PCM to run the motor, right? Not the E38... So it would solve the starting issue...

[GAMEOVER]

:shock: , that doesn't sound good.

Gameover, make sure on the conversion if you are using a T400 or some other non electronic Auto, don't use an Auto ECM tune as the base, for conversions that aren't running with a 4L60E, 6L80E etc (with a T42 / T43) you must use a manual trans file in the ECM or the ECM will be looking for the P/N message from the TCM before it will allow a start.

Cheers,
Ross

Holy Cow!!! I didn't even try or think about that...:doh2: But I can't find a 2007 E38 Silverado 5.3 with manual transmission, all of them are auto's...

[MSURacing]

Holy Cow!!! I didn't even try or think about that...:doh2: But I can't find a 2007 E38 Silverado 5.3 with manual transmission, all of them are auto's...

I have this one running without the trans module connected.

I would recommend going with a Corvette cal. Have a dealership flash in a corvette cal and make all the changes to make it appear as the 5.3L, if you don't get it up and running.

The power realy is now sending igntion power to the ECM rather than doing it with a switch. Now, my ignition switch closes the relay. Dumb, but it seems to work.
As for the starter relay, see the post eariler in this thread. What I did, because I don't have any 100 ohm resistors, is just wired a relay in to close when the ignition is on. The starter circuit seems that it needs to see load in order for the controller to be happy. I am still not 100% on it being the relays or just the simple VATS patch, so I will diagnose that when I have some more free time.

[tk-mpl]

I am having the same problem. I am running a 2007 5.3L/4L60 out of a tahoe. I don't have any spark or any noid. I have the starter relay enable wired right off of the ign. switch. I have power to all injectors and power and ground at all coils. We turned of vats, but something else is stopping it from starting. At this time I can not read the tcm, but should that matter at all...
Trevor

[tk-mpl]

I am kind of wondering cause the PCM is not seeing a "crank request" that it isn't energizing the coils or the injectors...

[gmh308]

You could set the EFILive scantool up to look at the injectors and coils and see what they are doing.

[tk-mpl]

I did and they don't change at all while cranking..

[gmh308]

I did and they don't change at all while cranking..

When I have scanned without VATS disabled coils and injectors dont change status.

With VATS disable working they both show activity.

Have you got full time 12V on pin 20 of body connector and 12V on both pin 19 and 47 with ignition in the run and start positions?

[VEGASROBBI]

Seems like this is an issue with the 07' 5.3 Silverado's. On my "M" code engine the ECM starter enable wire powers the starter relay trigger, it does not ground it as you would expect; so I ran it through an 80 ohm resistor to ground.

With this wire left open I would get spark but no injector pulse.

[tk-mpl]

When I have scanned without VATS disabled coils and injectors dont change status.

With VATS disable working they both show activity.

Have you got full time 12V on pin 20 of body connector and 12V on both pin 19 and 47 with ignition in the run and start positions?


not sure what you mean about "body connector". All I got was engine and trans componets..
Trevor

[tk-mpl]

Just verified 12V on 19,20,47 on C1 of PCM with key on and while in crank position..
Trevor

[gmh308]

Seems like this is an issue with the 07' 5.3 Silverado's. On my "M" code engine the ECM starter enable wire powers the starter relay trigger, it does not ground it as you would expect; so I ran it through an 80 ohm resistor to ground.

With this wire left open I would get spark but no injector pulse.

Which ECM pin does that connect to? Have looked at same for pin 57 of C1/J1 sometimes called "start control relay" and it appears to make no difference but it would depend on OS.

[gmh308]

Just verified 12V on 19,20,47 on C1 of PCM with key on and while in crank position..
Trevor

Ok cool. Not uncommon to see 47 missing.

[Tordne]

tk-mpl,

Just to cover off the simple stuff. You have applied the VATS Patch in the calibration and done the necessary full-flash, correct?

[tk-mpl]

tk-mpl,

Just to cover off the simple stuff. You have applied the VATS Patch in the calibration and done the necessary full-flash, correct?

Yes, have done full flash a couple of times..

[tk-mpl]

maybe doing something wrong, but here is the file I have been loading..

[VEGASROBBI]

Which ECM pin does that connect to? Have looked at same for pin 57 of C1/J1 sometimes called "start control relay" and it appears to make no difference but it would depend on OS.

Pin 52, connector X1 on my OS-4088. Looks like pin 71 on the diesel and pin 32 for the 4.3. Labeled as Starter Relay Control.

[gmh308]

Pin 52, connector X1 on my OS-4088. Looks like pin 71 on the diesel and pin 32 for the 4.3. Labeled as Starter Relay Control.

Thanks for that hint VegasRobbi. That did it.

More info here:

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13199