AutoVE when critical PIDs aren't valid?

[ScarabEpic22]

Got some interesting questions for the gurus here.

Trying to setup a PID selection to AutoVE my P10 with. Info for those who dont know, the P10 is a factory hybrid SD/alpha-n system (spark is MAP v RPM, but more importantly: VE tables are Load % v RPM).

Looking at the LS1 AutoVE guide as well as the E38 one I know I need to use:
SAE.MAP
SAE.RPM
SAE.VSS
GM.AFR (invalid!!)
SAE.LOAD_PCT (invalid!!)
GM.KR
SAE.SPARKADV
SAE.ECT
SAE.IAT
SAE.TP
CALC.AFR_LC11 (WBO2 is Innovate LC1, only 1) [do I need this if using Serial WO2?? The only reason Im logging with it is because the BEN PID goes invalid if I deselect it.]
CALC.BEN_LC11
EXT.WO2AFR1

Im using my LC1 with serial output, any other PIDs I need to select here to be able to output a valid BEN map?

If I understand the AutoVE process correctly, we are using what the PCM is commanding for the desired AFR (GM.AFR) against what we are actually seeing from the wideband. This is then compared, the difference is the BEN map and the axes are RPM and MAP. Well the VE table in the P10 is RPM v Load %, so naturally I assume I need to use the SAE.LOAD_PCT PID here instead of MAP. That would be fine if both the GM.AFR and SAE.LOAD_PCT PIDs were valid for the P10, pretty sure I could figure it out.

I looked at the SAE.LOAD_PCT PID and how it uses the different inputs to form the percentage value. Ambient Air Temp is in there, but guess what the SAE.AAT PID is invalid on my P10 also.

I guess Im looking for an answer why these PIDs arent valid on the P10 when the SAE.LOAD_PCT and SAE.AAT (able to be selected in the V8 S&T BBL part, not in V7.5 Scan Tool) PIDs can be selected. SAE.LOAD_PCT throws bogus information (like 30% load at idle, maxes to 100%+ at part throttle, maybe 40% TP).

Any advice from the experts? I spent about 3 hours playing with different settings tonight using different controllers (P10, P11, and LS1B_A/M) with no avail and Im a little frustrated and disappointed.

Thanks,
Erik

[joecar]

Erik,

Maybe try AFR_B... or try EQIVRATIO.

I don't know what can be done about load... does the load axis appear to be MAP or TP...? Post some images of the VE table.

You don't need CALC.AFR_LC11 and CALC.BEN_LC11 any more... you will now use EXT.WO2AFR1 (and EXT.WO2EQR1, EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2ST1) and CALC.BEN1.

Using Scan & Tune (remember to Save and Program each of these):
- in Device Settings, under tab F6:BBL enable serial/digital pids.
- in Black Box Settings, press the V7 button and specify that you also want to log CALC.BEN1.

In the scantool:
- you will now use EXT.WO2AFR1 and CALC.BEN1.
- open a BEN map (any BEN map), and on the Data tab select CALC.BEN1, then save the map with a new name [e.g. if your VE table is B0101, then name the map "{B0101} serial BEN"]; you will now use this BEN map to multiply into your VE table.

Joe

[ScarabEpic22]

Thanks for the response Joe, Ive had the LC1 outputting everything on the V2 for a few weeks now :cucumber:.

CALC.BEN1, good to know, knew I was missing a PID somewhere.

AFR_B and EQUIVRATIO arent valid on the P10 either, I tried using AFR_B (its the LS2 AFR PID IIRC) and it outputted bogus data too. Stayed at 14.6 always regardless of speed, rpm, spark, etc.

Now I found that EQ_RAT is valid for the P10, Ill test it out here in a few mins.

Pretty sure the VE table isnt like anything you've seen before Joe, its definitely Load %.

[ScarabEpic22]

Update, EQ_RAT and BARO are invalid on the P10 even though the V8 BBL program lets you add them as a valid PIDs. Might want to get these and Ambient Air Temp (AAT) fixed in a coming update to avoid future frustration.

Also, CALC.BEN1 for serial widebands is correct, but it uses GM.AFR in its calculations. Kind of an issue when GM.AFR is invalid on the P10. Get a divide by 0 problem here.

Tried to use BARO and BARO_B, BARO doesnt work but BARO_B does. V7 reports BARO_B as BARO though? BARO stayed constant at 13.5 PSI (Im at approximately 2400ft above sea level, seems low to me as the reported actual barometric pressure here in Spokane is supposed to be about 29.50 inHg which is almost exactly what it is in Seattle at sea level) so I cannot say if it is correct or bogus information.
BARO had no impact on LOAD_PCT like the forumula suggested, still sits at approximately 36% at idle (approx 7-8 TP%, remember its ETC) and maxes at 100% when maybe 30% TP.

Anyone else have other suggestions? Im driving home on a long roadtrip Tues night and really want to be able to AutoVE, at least for the cruise cells. Everything else Ill take care of but I want to play with cruise and see if I cant lean is out a bit more and get some mileage back.


-----------------
A suggestion for the BBL and Device settings windows in V8 S&T: Add an exit button next to either the red program button or by the AutoCal/V2 units. It would be easier to click that than having to go to the red X in the upper right corner. My .02.

[joecar]

Oh, when you find an air/fuel ratio pid that is valid, you will have to create a calc_pid similar to BEN1.

[joecar]

I sent Paul a pm to look at this thread.

[ScarabEpic22]

Oh, when you find an air/fuel ratio pid that is valid, you will have to create a calc_pid similar to BEN1.

If there was one, Im not seeing any at all...if there was one I think I could figure it out. But then comes the issue of how to I convert the resulting BEN table into something I can apply to the Load % v RPM (VE) tables with LOAD_PCT being invalid?

Thanks though Joe, cant wait to see what Paul has to say about this.

[joecar]

There may be a way to calculate load using a cal_pid.

[Blacky]

Try these PIDs:

[Parameters]
GM.BARO=1,4449
GM.KR=1,4736
GM.TP=1,5049
GM.TPS=1,5055
SAE.BARO=1,5120
SAE.ECT=1,5135
SAE.IAT=1,5147
SAE.LAMBDA=1,5148
SAE.LOAD_ABS=1,5149
SAE.LOAD_PCT=1,5150
SAE.LONGFT1=1,5151
SAE.MAP=1,5154
SAE.RPM=1,5174
SAE.SHRTFT1=1,5177
SAE.SPARKADV=1,5179
SAE.TAC_PCT=1,5180
SAE.TP=1,5181
SAE.TP_R=1,5184
SAE.VPWR=1,5189
SAE.VSS=1,5190

Regards
Paul

[ScarabEpic22]

Just looking at that list there are at least 5 that arent supported by my P10 OS 12575262 Cal 9351475.

GM.BARO=1,4449
GM.KR=1,4736
GM.TP=1,5049
GM.TPS=1,5055
SAE.BARO=1,5120 [Unsupported]
SAE.ECT=1,5135
SAE.IAT=1,5147
SAE.LAMBDA=1,5148 [Unsupported]
SAE.LOAD_ABS=1,5149 [Unsupported]
SAE.LOAD_PCT=1,5150
SAE.LONGFT1=1,5151
SAE.MAP=1,5154
SAE.RPM=1,5174
SAE.SHRTFT1=1,5177
SAE.SPARKADV=1,5179
SAE.TAC_PCT=1,5180 [Unsupported] (No reason for this PID, the throttle's DBW/ETC, TAC is done by throttle blade adjustment)
SAE.TP=1,5181
SAE.TP_R=1,5184 [Unsupported]
SAE.VPWR=1,5189 [Unsupported]
SAE.VSS=1,5190

Also, what are the number/values on the right hand side?


Ill try scanning using these PIDs with the controller set to LS1, maybe Ill get something.

[ScarabEpic22]

Any other suggestions Paul? Im lost here, there doesnt seem to be any PID that returns a valid load value or what AFR/EQ/Lambda the PCM is commanding.

[Blacky]

No, unfortunately I don't have any other suggestions.

But send me a copy of your *.tun file. I'll try and pull all the PIDs from it (not just the ones that EFILive checks), just in case there's other PIDs in that OS that EFILive does not know about.

Send to paul@efilive.com

Regards
Paul

[ScarabEpic22]

Thanks Paul, sent you an email. Appreciate the help.

[ScarabEpic22]

Paul, have you had a chance to look at this at all? Thanks

[Blacky]

Paul, have you had a chance to look at this at all? Thanks

No :redface: but keep reminding me.
I will try and get to it once I finish get BBF to beta stage.

Paul

[Chevy366]

While you are at it can you validate some of the P12 stuff as well ?

Thanks in advance .