efilive v2 vs hptuners

[mellor]

just need some info from the experts

i instruct automotive at a college in canada . in my program we do gen 6 and 7accell ,holley and ebl tuning and it really works out good for the top students as now we do a lot of the local hotrod and specialty installs and tuning but now its time to upgrade to more current systems including diesels

efilive is 799. with 2 credits hp tuners is 650. less 20% = 520. with educational discount
i have never used either one and would like to know which one is more user freindly and would be more long term and maybe better for a learning enviroment as from what i see from reading is there very close but one is three hundred cheaper

[joecar]

Hi mellor, welcome to the forum...:cheers:
Ok, we're all pretty much biased here... :hihi: ...but, in seriousness, don't let the cost sway you.

EFILive FlashScan V2 comes with 2 licenses... each license allows you to flash 1 PCM, or 1 ECM/TCM pair.

You can try the actual EFILive software, download and install V7.5 from >here< (http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=133)

(without the FSV2 hardware/cable, the software still lets you view log files and view/edit tune files (you obviously won't be able to scan, log or flash)).

(V8 software is for doing Black Box Logging, and soon Black Box Flashing... BB means "standalone without laptop at vehicle"... i.e. you move V2 from PC to vehicle and back again).

[swingtan]

Hi and welcome Mellor,

Asking that question here will get some very one sided answers. What I can do is tell you why I went for EFILive over HPT when I got in to tuning.

Firstly, I'm a "Self Tuner" not a shop. So the commercial aspects of the 2 brands never really came into it. When looking at the 2 products, I felt that the over all package of both were quite similar in "technical terms". They both provided the ability to tune the engine and transmission of various cars and the end results are similar.


at the time I was looking I needed support for the, then new, E38 controller. At that time EFILive had better support for the E38 so it was very high on the list.
looking at the license format, I struggled to understand the HPT method. With EFILive, once a vehicle is licensed, you can tune it any way you want. The way I see HPT, is that you need to re-license for every "type" of tune you do. For example...


Update the stock tune = license fee
Change to a MAFless tune = more license fees
Change to a custom OS = more license fees
Change back to the stock tune = yet more license fees

When checking the costs involved, the EFILive license format worked out much cheaper. Especially if you wanted to "build up" a project a step at a time, or if you wanted to test something by flashing in a stock tune.
The support given from this forum is also excellent. Many members are very willing to help and open discussion is encouraged.
The support from the EFILive team is also excellent. They supply additional calibrations for new vehicles very quickly and are very active in this forum.
When I got started I had a good friend who had been using EFILive and he offered to help out with the steep learning curve.


I know a few guys that use both EFILive and HPT, and all prefer EFILive for the bulk of their tuning. For someone that already has an excellent grounding in mechanics and really understands distributors and carbies, it will not be too hard to move into tuning the computer. I know I still think in "mechanical" terms and then convert to the computer.

Simon.

[Tordne]

The FlashScan V2 interface is considerably more featured than the competitions product:
- 4 x 0-5 volt inputs for wideband controllers and other sensor inputs
- Support for supported serially attached wideband controllers (more accurate)
- Dominant in the Duramax market with our DSP custom operating systems
- Licensing not tied to vehicle make or year - a VIN license can be used to tune any supported vehicle

But, I am even more biased than Joe :)

Definitely do download and install the software fro the link in Joe's post. Then you can have a look at the software for yourself. The link in my sig has some stock tunes you can have a look through as well.

The other invaluable difference I believe is the very active any helpful EFILive customer base on this forum (thanks everyone).

Cheers,

[joecar]

Andrew/Tordne mentions serial wideband...

This allows V2 to obtain the AFR/EQR/Lambda from the wideband vis RS232 serial/digitial comms... this eliminates any voltage offset errors usually found with analog wideband connections... most of the popular widebands are supported.

[mr.prick]

Not another one of these threads. http://smiliesftw.com/x/rolleyes.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Get both buy buy pptuners used. :hihi:

[GAMEOVER]

Not another one of these threads. http://smiliesftw.com/x/rolleyes.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Get both buy buy pptuners used. :hihi:

Hahaha

[macca_779]

I have both so I'm a little less biased. But EFI LIVE still wins hands down. The HPT way of doing things is a little simpler at initial face value. Especially when it comes to applying custom operating systems. But its hardly rocket science doing it in EFI LIVE and process to do it is clearly documented in EFI LIVE's tutorials.

[bmax]

Of course EFI live runs circles around the other guys.
Everybody knows that.

Download the demo and see for yourself.

Brad

[WeathermanShawn]

Mellor:

Welcome.

Hey, I am just a regular guy. This is just a hobby for me, so there is no business interests in my comments (no inference implied).

I have never owned HP Tuners.

What I will say is that I believe that tuning with any sophisticated tuning software can be moderately difficult at times. Especially for beginners. There have been a few spirited discussions concerning the perceived 'need' for additional resources on how to actually tune..and whether any tuning software suite should even attempt to publish that. I am sure the same debate occurs no matter who develops the software.

But, here is what I will say. This forum has some very smart people who are very willing to help. That counts for a lot.

Like others, I have also utilized the serial output via the wideband and also purchased the RoadRunner PCM (more for convenience, than necessity). Since you have a background in this subject, you can obviously weigh all the differing advantages and constraints. I can certainly understand the financial considerations in todays world.

Just thought I would add a review from a regular non-shop, hobby-type guy.

[joecar]

WeahthermanSauwn mentions the RoadRunner PCM...

The combination of RoadRunner and EFILive allows tuning/editing of any/all tables/parameters in realtime while the engine/transmission is running...

and I said that in a very understated manner... :)

[mellor]

thanks for all your input my biggest problem is i know programing to some extent as i personnally run a 69 camaro 540cid pt fuel inj. running a modified computer with an ebl flash tuned with tunerpro rt. i been running this since 1997 its my summer daily driver

when i see these programs together and compare i see hp better for gas and have some ford and soon dodge (im personally all gm) and efi live has the diesel market place and i believe both would be good for me.

only problem i have now is in the college system i have to qualify my purchase and and have two quotes
efi live is 799.00 no discounts for education our purchaser(and ex tech) always stresses this and hp is 649. than a 20% educational discount. so im triing to rationalize the efi pricing difference and how is it more product to quallify the final cost. btw aso i think this forum could be fun thanks again

[gmtech16450yz]

I have both and the biggest difference is logging. Being able to do Black Box Logging (EFILive) on a few dozen pids, engine AND trans at the same time is AWESOME.

[Tordne]

I think most of the information for the guy to make a decision is out there now. I don't see there is really any benefit either way of continuing a thread like this.

For sure we are absolutely dominant in the diesel market (for good reason). We are also very strong and innovative on the gas side. Perhaps one significant thing that has not come out in this thread is the still exclusive Virtual VE (read more here http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118&Itemid=127) for the E38/E67 controllers. The other company has been promising this for probably over a year and it is still not available.

If you don't go EFILive this time round we are always happy to sell you the product later :)

[macca_779]

I think most of the information for the guy to make a decision is out there now. I don't see there is really any benefit either way of continuing a thread like this.

For sure we are absolutely dominant in the diesel market (for good reason). We are also very strong and innovative on the gas side. Perhaps one significant thing that has not come out in this thread is the still exclusive Virtual VE (read more here http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118&Itemid=127) for the E38/E67 controllers. The other company has been promising this for probably over a year and it is still not available.

If you don't go EFILive this time round we are always happy to sell you the product later :)

Andrew they do have a program available that was written by a member of their forum that works basically the same as ours does. Its not integrated though like EFI LIVE's is but it gets the job done. There is always their custom OS with a regular VE table which does work very well.

[MyM8V8]

thanks for all your input my biggest problem is i know programing to some extent as i personnally run a 69 camaro 540cid pt fuel inj. running a modified computer with an ebl flash tuned with tunerpro rt. i been running this since 1997 its my summer daily driver

when i see these programs together and compare i see hp better for gas and have some ford and soon dodge (im personally all gm) and efi live has the diesel market place and i believe both would be good for me.

only problem i have now is in the college system i have to qualify my purchase and and have two quotes
efi live is 799.00 no discounts for education our purchaser(and ex tech) always stresses this and hp is 649. than a 20% educational discount. so im triing to rationalize the efi pricing difference and how is it more product to quallify the final cost. btw aso i think this forum could be fun thanks again

As is is usual in this kind of situation the buying "entity" (bean counter) is considering only the initial capital cost of the equipment/service and never thinks about the total cost of ownership. Not only that, but features and value for money are also blatently disregarded - normally a mistake that impinges on the end user (not the bean counter) well down the line.

May I suggest that if you really want the Efilve package that you do a presentation for the bean counters, listing all the benefits and advantages of the competing packages.

Cheers.

[WeathermanShawn]

Yea, I kinda have a problem with this kind of thread also. Nothing personal toward the OP, but I can never tell if it a legitimate question of the differences in the tuning software or a public 'negotiation' over price.

I mean it is pretty easy to do the research without becoming a member of the forum..but when you have "price" or "quotes" mentioned several times in your first few posts..makes you wonder.

Nothing personal OP. Maybe my style would be different in how I asked it.:)

[GAMEOVER]

This guy also started a EFI vs HPT thread on the HPT website....Wow!!! alot of EFI Live bashing going on over there...:shock:
EDIT: I was wrong!

[Ira]

This guy also started a EFI vs HPT thread on the HPT website....Wow!!! alot of EFI Live bashing going on over there...:shock:

I'm not going to get in on the which is better side, but I will say that for reasons I've never understood, the people involved with EFILive; management, programmers, support and users; have always been polite, kind helpful and courteous and the people involved with HP have in general not been those things.

Try to find a thread anywhere where someone up high from HP says "Oops, isn't supposed to work like that, we'll try to have it fixed by morning", then try the same thing for EFILive.

In the end, you'll tune your car with either, if you want a product supported by people who care, you'll buy EFILive.

Ira

[GAMEOVER]

I'm not going to get in on the which is better side, but I will say that for reasons I've never understood, the people involved with EFILive; management, programmers, support and users; have always been polite, kind helpful and courteous and the people involved with HP have in general not been those things.

Try to find a thread anywhere where someone up high from HP says "Oops, isn't supposed to work like that, we'll try to have it fixed by morning", then try the same thing for EFILive.

In the end, you'll tune your car with either, if you want a product supported by people who care, you'll buy EFILive.

Ira

I agree with you IRA!

I almost bought HP:shock: but all the negative bashing they did on LS1tech with the EFI Live vs HP Tuners threads, steered me away from their product... Plus Ross & Paul are cool!!! :D

[mellor]

Originally Posted by GAMEOVER View Post
This guy also started a EFI vs HPT thread on the HPT website....Wow!!! alot of EFI Live bashing going on over there

No i did not start a thread on hp tuner .

My only contact with them was the exact same original email to both companies at that time it was primarily from ls1 forum as i am a gas man and both products are represented there.both responded very quickly and professional . my first decision was to go with hp because of the price and they seemed to do the same thing. then i started reading all the pages of posts and i started questioning whats the diff. between the two products.thats why i asked the ques. i have never responded or asked a question before this or in any other forum before this one, as you can see i never even thought of creating a handle,Mellor is my real name.this was my way of asking info from the professionals to answer or qualify my decisions as i have a budget and have work within it . i did read my post and yes i was more focused on price than product at that time . you guys are very passionate about this product and that says a lot about it to me

mellor

[WeathermanShawn]

You are right, people become very passionate about their cars, what type of heads and cams they have, and yes even their pursuit of tuning.

I think learning how to tune takes a certain blend of art and science. And some of the automotive forums (not this one) become competitive, petty, and full of misinformation.

I think you have talented people involved, whether it is HPTuners or EFILive. I am going to make a very subjective observation.. that perhaps the maturity level is higher on this forum, than others I have observed.

Thanks for the comments, and I wish you luck no matter what decision you make!:)

[Cougar281]

I have both and the biggest difference is logging. Being able to do Black Box Logging (EFILive) on a few dozen pids, engine AND trans at the same time is AWESOME.

This is a very good point. EFILive's V2 has far more features than HPT's interface. You can read & clear codes, view & log realtime data without a PC (And see the data while you're logging it), standalone reading and flashing is coming. Also EFILive's software updates are free for life, custom OSes are free, as was stated VIN Licenses are universal meaning you buy a license and you can use it on ANY supported vehicle (and as such, a license purchased now but not used will work down the road on new vehicles since it's not tied to a specific model or year). I'm pretty sure HPTuners charges extra for their Custom OSes, and to top it off, they charge more if you want to flash the controller back to the stock OS! What little I've seen of the HPTuners interface, it seems more "cludgy" than EFILives. Also, just the fact that EFILive allows you to download the software and play with it before you buy puts them head and shoulders above ANY other tuning company. AFAIK, they are the only company that allows you to download and use the software with no time restriction (you just can't save, and obviously can't read or flash without the hardware). You CAN'T download HPT without buying it. IMO, the better hardware and "extras" justifies the extra cost of EFILive.

[joecar]

...

Also, just the fact that EFILive allows you to download the software and play with it before you buy puts them head and shoulders above ANY other tuning company. AFAIK, they are the only company that allows you to download and use the software with no time restriction...
Exactly as Cougar281 said... the EFILive software can be downloaded/installed by anyone, it is the actual production software.

[GAMEOVER]

Originally Posted by GAMEOVER View Post
This guy also started a EFI vs HPT thread on the HPT website....Wow!!! alot of EFI Live bashing going on over there

No i did not start a thread on hp tuner .

My only contact with them was the exact same original email to both companies at that time it was primarily from ls1 forum as i am a gas man and both products are represented there.both responded very quickly and professional . my first decision was to go with hp because of the price and they seemed to do the same thing. then i started reading all the pages of posts and i started questioning whats the diff. between the two products.thats why i asked the ques. i have never responded or asked a question before this or in any other forum before this one, as you can see i never even thought of creating a handle,Mellor is my real name.this was my way of asking info from the professionals to answer or qualify my decisions as i have a budget and have work within it . i did read my post and yes i was more focused on price than product at that time . you guys are very passionate about this product and that says a lot about it to me

mellor

Ooops, my bad....Sorry!:doh:

[macca_779]

I posted this on the HPT forum yesterday.

A picture tells a thousand words.
http://www.3800performance.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/hpt_vcmsuite_330w.jpg
http://store.huskerdiesel.com/images/uploads/fs2_c_m.jpg

Went back to check replies today and my post was removed.. Now thats pathetic on their count.

[Doc]

To the OP, can you clarify what your ultimate goals are? My perspective is personal and business related. You definitely don't need to bring a Howitzer to a knife fight- I take it you are not trying to develop an EFI curriculum based on the product you are evaluating here? The ultimate choice you (or the bean counters) make will be for....? Will the tool you choose be for? I think you will find your answer if you review your original requirements.

IMHO, if your requirements are to have a tool that will support development of a course of study centered around supporting GM EFI, then look no further.

Either way, if you are seeking anything more than the latest gizmo that goes "bing," the initial cost should be put into proper perspective when it comes to considering support and options already included.

Good luck teaching the future generations- I look fwd to institutions like yours sending me qualified individuals to employ. I can't do everything for ever.

[mellor]

OK you won i am officially onside purchased it today

[macca_779]

OK you won i am officially onside purchased it today

Thats great. Funnily enough I got BANNED from the HPT Forum for that little pic I posted above in the thread you started there. :angel_innocent: Guess they don't like visual comparisons making their product look bad.

[mr.prick]

Thats great. Funnily enough I got BANNED from the HPT Forum for that little pic I posted above in the thread you started there. :angel_innocent: Guess they don't like visual comparisons making their product look bad.

That's http://smiliesftw.com/x/greddy.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)
Are you a customer?
A ban seems a little harsh.

[joecar]

OK you won i am officially onside purchased it today
You won't be disappointed.

[Highlander]

There are many advantages to both system. My main and only gripe with efilive is the Lack of LNF support. It is probably the only thing. Other than that....EFilive has these advantages over HPT.

Serial Wideband Communication
Better Scanner Overall and this is the MAIN thing
Overall is a much "prettier" GUI
V2 hardware is really good for stand alone stuff, which will soon be finished
A lot more freedom with licensing (no need to license to edit a file)
Custom OS's are included
Ability to add your custom calibration options!!!!!!

There are many more actually...

What I like from HPT more than EFILIVE?
12sec flashes
2min reads
LNF support....

Now, the first two, I don't really mind actually... but LNF!! come on.. LNF... jeje.. I rather keep the $ here than elsewhere.

[Mr. P.]

In our business my partner and I purchased both products; I bought EFILive and he purchased HPT, so we've used both on a few different projects over this last year. That said, I love EFILive, and the more that I get to know the product the more that I come to appreciate it. The problem is that neither product is what I would call mature, both have their rough edges and it's obvious that the EFILive guys are working to enhance the product as quickly as new OEM functionality comes out.

The biggest turn-off for me is the predatory pricing at HPT; a real life gotcha we experienced this year, one customer has a TT 447 LSX and because his truck was previously tuned with HPT he decided to stick with HPT for additional tuning and it cost him another $200 in HPT VIN license surcharges to install a 3-bar capable custom OS, where this would have not been any additional charge if his original tuner used EFILive.

Mr. P. :)

[redhardsupra]

yesterday by accident I found out that HPT does not support 'greater or equal than' operator in their filters, only 'greater'. how annoying. and there's a lot more where that came from, their code quality is appaling.

[Area51]

Since my days as a budding NetWare admin I've lived by the motto "no demo, no purchase" because anyone who won't show their software has something to hide. This goes especially when it won't function without additional hardware :doh2:

[Cougar281]

Since my days as a budding NetWare admin I've lived by the motto "no demo, no purchase" because anyone who won't show their software has something to hide. This goes especially when it won't function without additional hardware :doh2:

Agreed x10,000

[ScarabEpic22]

That is a HUGE reason why I bought EFILive instead of HPT in 06, I couldnt demo HPTs software and I could EFILive's. I called HPT out on it and they basically told me to get over it.

[TBMSport]

Well I finally am at the point where I decided I need to get a scanner/tuner....and the inevitable HPT vs EFILive research commenced. :help2:

Thankfully it wasn't THAT time consuming...but the beating was brutal. Due to the support that this forum has given me and that several individuals whom I have had personal/professional interaction with, in addition to all the additional reasons posted in this thread, I decided to get the V2 Scan/Tune. :rockon:

Keep your fingers crossed that it helps me figure out the last piece to our puzzle.:sly:

[mr.prick]

yesterday by accident I found out that HPT does not support 'greater or equal than' operator in their filters, only 'greater'. how annoying. and there's a lot more where that came from, their code quality is appaling.
:laugh: :hihi:

[joecar]

Since my days as a budding NetWare admin I've lived by the motto "no demo, no purchase" because anyone who won't show their software has something to hide. This goes especially when it won't function without additional hardware :doh2:Look, this guy likes EFILive sufficiently over the competition to make this his one and only post. :cheers:

[joecar]

Well I finally am at the point where I decided I need to get a scanner/tuner....and the inevitable HPT vs EFILive research commenced. :help2:

Thankfully it wasn't THAT time consuming...but the beating was brutal. Due to the support that this forum has given me and that several individuals whom I have had personal/professional interaction with, in addition to all the additional reasons posted in this thread, I decided to get the V2 Scan/Tune. :rockon:

Keep your fingers crossed that it helps me figure out the last piece to our puzzle.:sly:There are some very knowledge GenIV people here, I'm sure the puzzle will be solved.

[L31Sleeper]

I'm down with EFI Live 100% but I would like to see the supported vehicles
list EXCEED everyone else's instead of the quilt there is now EFI Live, HP Tuner & Tuner CAT

What is LNF support ??

[GMPX]

LS3Sleeper, broader new vehicle coverage as the years go on will come mainly due to GM (at least) using 80% common code over similar ECM's on numerous platforms. Going back to 2004 as an example, you had the LS1 PCM, LL8 PCM, P12 (IL5) PCM, Duramax, Northstar, SeriesII V6's each running totally different PCM's with totally different code in them, nothing at all was similar.
Now when you look at the E67 as an example, it supports 3 of those engines I mentioned out of the same box (IL5, LL8 and Northstar). This is a trend GM is continuing with the new 2011 ECM's.
There is really only a few PCM's we've omitted in the older engines that HPT and TC support (eg, the SeriesII V6's) and the Bosch SIDI ECM's, though I don't think any company has 100% (usable) support on the Bosch SIDI yet. On the flip side we are the only company offering tuning complete support for the E37 ECM, 2011 E39 & 2011 E78 ECM's.

[L31Sleeper]

I still don't know what LNF means ?? LOL

[GMPX]

Oh, sorry, engine code LNF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Family_II_engine#LNF

[L31Sleeper]

LS3Sleeper,

I've always liked you guys but the slander hurts........

[ScarabEpic22]

Well I finally am at the point where I decided I need to get a scanner/tuner....and the inevitable HPT vs EFILive research commenced. :help2:

Thankfully it wasn't THAT time consuming...but the beating was brutal. Due to the support that this forum has given me and that several individuals whom I have had personal/professional interaction with, in addition to all the additional reasons posted in this thread, I decided to get the V2 Scan/Tune. :rockon:

Keep your fingers crossed that it helps me figure out the last piece to our puzzle.:sly:

Jesse, great to hear on your purchase! I hope it helps out on your quest to get the dang 6L80Es running on the GMT360 platform!

Just replied to your PM, any more questions shoot them my way. Ill try to help as best I can!


Ross, you missed the 4 cylinder PCM and the Allison TCM (LLYs)! But I think the 4 bangers share a fair bit of code with the LL8 P10 no?

[L31Sleeper]

Thats great. Funnily enough I got BANNED from the HPT Forum for that little pic I posted above in the thread you started there. :angel_innocent: Guess they don't like visual comparisons making their product look bad.

I'm still FLOORED that HPT would BAN someone that is an actual customer !!!!
I would understand getting rid of a freeloading trouble maker......

[GMPX]

I've always liked you guys but the slander hurts........
Ooops, sorry.


I'm still FLOORED that HPT would BAN someone that is an actual customer !!!!
Because that is how they are, you know, the kid in the playground that wants to play with every toy and no-one else is allowed. I also find it amusing that the word EFILive is usually banned over there too, we are referred to as 'the other guys', it's really pathetic. But enough of that talk, it's been like this for many years, we all just accept that is how it is.


But I think the 4 bangers share a fair bit of code with the LL8 P10 no?
Yes, that is true, just a different shape box.