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truethinker
December 22nd, 2009, 03:39 PM
I posted this over on the GM Performance forum but figured since i'm using EFIlive I'd ask it here too.


Vehicle Info:
1996 Chevy K1500, 5.7L, 220k miles

Original engine(block and rotating assembly), Aftermarket heads, ramjet intake, headers, 4L80E swap, 411 swap with EFIlive, etc. . . .

If memory serves, this occurred once or twice before the 411 swap two years ago and has been getting worse since.

Also, fearing a faulty 411, I replaced it the other day. No change.

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SYMPTOMS

-the engine revs very slowly and in choppy fashion when in P/N. The higher the rpms, the smoother and snappier the engine.

-when driving, anything more than the lightest of throttle/engine load will cause an extreme loss of power and a very choppy engine running condition.
--when I say loss of power, I mean that you could floor the throttle and not move more than a couple feet in a minute.

-The only effective way to drive is to start in 1st and apply throttle by "feel", staying below the engine load threshold where the engine begins to stumble and die. Just as in P/N, the higher the rpms, the better the engine runs. So I have to run to around 4000 then shift to 2nd and run to high rpm and shift to 3rd and so on.
--When staying under that "threshold" the truck feels normal and responsive. But that "threshold" is less than 8% throttle on the level and even less on a grade/ under load.

-Once up to speed on level highway, the truck can maintain speed as long as I don't apply more than slight throttle. Also, the slightest up hill grade and increased load on the engine, requires a manual downshift(sometimes to 2nd) just to climb the grade.

-AFR is within proper range at all times and there is no MIL illuminated(tested the MIL with EFIlive. It works just fine)

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I know what is causing all these symptoms.
-While slowly applying the throttle, the timing is fine until I hit that "threshold" and then the spark is retarded to the maximum EFIlive is able to read. (I don't have specific numbers as my power steering line failed the other day as I was getting ready to log some data for the forum.)

This makes sense with all the symptoms. . .

But I have no idea what is causing this phantom spark retard.

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Some info on when this happens.

Sometimes it happens upon cold start. The problem is present the moment the vehicle is started. Once I get it up my driveway and am able to drive on the level, I always make it to about the same spot on my way to town. It's about a mile from my house. It then corrects itself and runs great. I could have the throttle floored and be causing the engine to bog and spit and sputter but when it decides to correct itself, it will break the tires loose and take off. . .

The other time that this happens is after driving for a while. The truck will be running fine and then all of a sudden it just dies down and I start to decelerate due to the retarded timing.

-When this was happening before(while I was at school), I could predict it. I would leave Blairsville, PA and drive about 30 minutes with periods of heavy uphill grades and level terrain. Immediately before the Wal-mart in Ebensburg, PA this problem would occur. I would pull into Wal-mart and go inside for 30ish minutes then when I came back out the truck ran fine.

--I can only think of two points of interest here. This location when the problem would occur was directly after the steepest uphill grade, so directly after having the greatest load on the engine.

---The problem never happened on the way back to school, which was mostly a downhill trip/level trip aside for two areas which are pretty steep.


Now when this happens, there is no pulling over for thirty minutes. I could let it sit overnight and still the problem persists. And now I only get about five miles on the highway toward state college, PA(uphill) and it happens.

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I'm certain that this is not heat related, as in, I'm sure that it's not a matter of a component heating up and faulting. This is because, if I reload my tune with EFIlive and in the process, reset the ECM, the problem goes away.

Also certain that it's not a loose or shorting wire as it's too predictable.

Definitely engine load related as increasing the load on the engine cause the spark retard "threshold" to be reached at a much lower throttle position.

I don't know if the computer is commanding this retarded timing or if another component is causing it and EFIlive is reading it and showing it to me. Either way, the timing is retarded to the maximum.





I appreciate your time in reading this and any input would be greatly appreciated:
Jesse

Aloicious
December 22nd, 2009, 07:04 PM
when you say 'spark retard' are you referring to KR, or just everything (i.e. burst knock, torque management, KR, etc, etc)? do you have a tune and hopefully a log that you could post up for us to look at?

if its only KR, have you tried replacing the knock sensor? they can get faulty with age.

truethinker
December 22nd, 2009, 08:17 PM
I wont have a log until i get that powersteering line fixed.

It's not knock. I'm simply referring to the fact that overall spark timing is being retarded. Don't know what's doing it.

hquick
December 22nd, 2009, 10:46 PM
Post your tune Jesse.

truethinker
December 23rd, 2009, 03:19 AM
Will do.

truethinker
December 23rd, 2009, 04:23 AM
Here's the tune I'm using right now.

I've tried it with a normal O.S. and using the MAF. I've tried shutting of traction control and abuse mode, etc. This problem existed with both the 4L60E and now the 4L80E.

Could some sensor or something, be failing and sending faulty information without setting a code?


Also, just a note on the ignition system.

MSD Blaster coil
MSD 6A Ignition Box
MSD wires
Once upon a time, I had an Accel coil wire. It was a "cut to length" kit. It burnt off at the coil and was arching between the boot and the coil mount. I just chalked that up to me not properly attaching the coil wire end. But who knows.

Boost
December 23rd, 2009, 09:38 AM
Subscribed. I hope you are able to clear this up, faulty knock sensors sound like a reasonable possibility. I had a similar (load) symptom on an '89 Grand Prix, except I could not confirm that it was KR with EFILive. After experimenting with the MAP sensor, wiring and PCM all night, I gave up and blamed it on the fuel pressure regulator... Good luck and keep us posted

drdarthinvader
December 24th, 2009, 02:34 AM
is your vehicle running rich you have high ve numbers with low ifr numbers and high o2 switch points and throttle cracker table altered,and having the aust ipw voltage table> your engine might not like these mods?

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 02:52 AM
When I get back home ill have to check and make sure I sent the right tune. The tune I'm running is mostly stock. Haven't touched the switch points. Haven't tuned ve. Just set the ifr and used tuned the trans some. Maybe the unmodified tune file I started with wasn't so unmodified after all.

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 03:01 AM
Yes. Fuel trims are high compensating for a rich condition. I figured that was just a matter of needing to tune VE.

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 05:19 AM
is your vehicle running rich you have high ve numbers with low ifr numbers and high o2 switch points and throttle cracker table altered,and having the aust ipw voltage table> your engine might not like these mods?


Just a couple questions on this:

Low IFR? Compared to what? According to the numbers, the IFR in the tune matches the flow of my injectors.

High O2 switch points and throttle cracker altered? I've never messed with these. Where should they be?

Aust IPW voltage table? Aust?


I do have a fair knowledge of tuning ve and timing during WOT dyno runs(mostly with AEM and some MoTec). But I don't really have any experience with this every day driveability stuff nor am I overly experienced with EFIlive specifically. Just learning as I go.

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 11:24 AM
Don't know if it's just me but I get out of range errors on
{A0001} Forced Octane Scaler Percentage, was out of range when loaded.
{A0002} Octane Scaler Limiter, was out of range when loaded.
as soon as I open it?

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 11:35 AM
I get the same thing. Admittedly, I don't have any idea what to do about that.

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 11:36 AM
I just ran a compare with a stock tune....and there seems to be ALOT of differences.
Most of those though from running MAFless along with trans differences.

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 11:37 AM
In the original tune...the octane scaler is enabled.
Try leaving it disabled and change it to 99 and save and re-open the tune.

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 11:39 AM
I just did as I said above. Closed the program, re opened it and no more OOR errors

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 11:41 AM
So...I just went and changed it back to 100, saved, closed and re-opened EFILive and it's still fine.
Do the same so atleast that's gone.
Then flash that into your PCM.

joecar
December 24th, 2009, 11:54 AM
I get the same thing. Admittedly, I don't have any idea what to do about that.Set those tables to max-1 or min-1 (do you follow what I mean... like hquick said), save the file, quit the tunetool, reopen the tunetool, set those tables back to their previous values, save file.

joecar
December 24th, 2009, 11:57 AM
...

Aust IPW voltage table? Aust?

...He's saying that some Australian calibration files have different values for some of the tables, for otherwise identical engines.

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 12:01 PM
Hmm...don't know why Joe?
We don't have the L31 here at all...except for in imorted Burbs.
Jesse seems to have gone offline Joe. Can you tell me why he would be running op system 02020001? Seems odd to me.
Most of us 99+ 'swappers' run either 12212156 or COS 02020003

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 12:14 PM
What injectors are you runnig Jesse?

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 12:25 PM
Hmm. Australian tune tables? Interesting. I generally answer from my blackberry and it takes some time to get notified of new posts so I'm not usually on for very long at a time.

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 03:01 PM
Hmm...don't know why Joe?
We don't have the L31 here at all...except for in imorted Burbs.
Jesse seems to have gone offline Joe. Can you tell me why he would be running op system 02020001? Seems odd to me.
Most of us 99+ 'swappers' run either 12212156 or COS 02020003

I was first running 12212156 and then went to 02020003 when I went MAFless. In trying to track down this problem, I switched to 02020001 to take away the valet/two step mode. Just thinking that this was acting exactly like what I would expect upon hitting the upper threshold in valet mode. Just a shot in the dark really but figured it was worth a try.






What injectors are you runnig Jesse?

This is one area where I'm thinking I need a change. I came up with these injectors for a very low price. They are ::cough:ford racing:cough:: yellow top injectors. I was able to find the supposed IFR on a random table on an internet site somewhere and plugged that into the tune but at the time, had no idea that there were "other numbers" that I needed. Numbers that I can't find anywhere.

I just haven't had the money to pop for a brand new set of injectors and with this timing issue, figured I should work on figuring that out first.

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 03:04 PM
I just ran a compare with a stock tune....and there seems to be ALOT of differences.
Most of those though from running MAFless along with trans differences.

Right, aside from the needed changes to go MAFless and the trans changes that you sent me Howard(much appreciated, love how it shifts), and IFR; everything else should be OEM settings.


EDIT: also, speedometer correction, fuel tank size, security settings, etc. would be different

truethinker
December 24th, 2009, 03:05 PM
Oh, and to anyone who celebrates it:

Merry Christmas!

hquick
December 24th, 2009, 08:46 PM
Hey...Mery Xmas Jesse.
Just finished 'celebrating' here....Lol! Still a little 'inebriated'.
I'd say go back to 02020003 or 12212156 for starters...so we have a more 'common' base to play with.
The injector details are really important. What are the 'yellow top's' rated at?
If you are after a good set of injectors at a more than reasonable price...get in touch with Jon at FIC (Fuel Injector Connection) and get a set of 'resized' injectors. This way you'll have all the 'other' numbers. This will atleast give you a good base to start with.

truethinker
December 25th, 2009, 03:03 AM
Sounds like a good time Howard. Haha. Glad to hear it!

Ill switch back to COS3 and look into a set of injectors ASAP.

joecar
December 25th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Hmm...don't know why Joe?
We don't have the L31 here at all...except for in imorted Burbs.
Jesse seems to have gone offline Joe. Can you tell me why he would be running op system 02020001? Seems odd to me.
Most of us 99+ 'swappers' run either 12212156 or COS 02020003Howard,

I don't know why they're different (...GM-LH and GM-RH, each hand can't see the other...:doh2:)...?

Either of 12212156, 02020003, 02020005.

Yes, the injector tables are important to get right.

Offline... ha, he has web-capable phone... cool...:hihi:

Merry Christmas... we're in the middle of it now... :santa1:

truethinker
December 25th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Howard,

I don't know why they're different (...GM-LH and GM-RH, each hand can't see the other...:doh2:)...?

Either of 12212156, 02020003, 02020005.

Yes, the injector tables are important to get right.

Offline... ha, he has web-capable phone... cool...:hihi:

Merry Christmas... we're in the middle of it now... :santa1:



Well I Think I'll give FIC a call tomorrow and see if they're open. Also intend to get that Power Steering line replaced tomorrow. That way I can take some logs and show you guys exactly what's happening.

Best thing about this Balckberry. . .Not having to wait till I get back home or to the office to find out what you guys have to say. haha Cheers! :cheers:

Do some celebrating for me! :cucumber:

hquick
December 26th, 2009, 12:44 AM
Merry Xmas Joe.
Jesse....speak to Jon at FIC.

truethinker
January 3rd, 2010, 04:46 PM
alright, Jon at FIC sent me a set of Bosch III injectors with the offset table information. I can see how to do the IFR and Minimum Pulse Width but I need some instruction on exactly what information needs entered and how to do so.

I'm currently running 50 psi at the regulator. Is this a good pressure or is there a better choice?

Attached is the Configuration sheet for the injectors.

truethinker
January 3rd, 2010, 04:49 PM
take two

truethinker
January 3rd, 2010, 05:18 PM
oh, and jon did say that if I didn't want to mess with the offset tables right away, I could try just changing the flow rate and see how they run. He said that they are designed to be much like OEM injectors in relation to the "other numbers". I'd like to get things as close as possible though, so I'd like to use any number that need be applied

hquick
January 3rd, 2010, 05:40 PM
Hmmm...I would have thought a set the same as I'm using would have done the job. I just used the spec's from a 02 Camaro tune as it runs them OEM.
Most (probably 90%) people just change the IFR....and are happy.
I'm NEVER happy. Lol!

truethinker
January 3rd, 2010, 05:55 PM
okay, well maybe i'll just change what I can and see how they work.

Never happy indeed! "Close enough" just isn't close enough. haha

truethinker
January 4th, 2010, 05:20 PM
Injectors are installed and set up pretty closely I think.
Switched to COS3 and got rid of those "out of limits" reports.

The truck definitely started and idled better than it used to. Also seems more responsive although I didn't actually drive it, just messed with it in park.

I'm still getting a vibration in a couple areas on the rpm curve. Feels a lot like a misfire.


Two questions:
-When scanning the PID "Camshaft Position Retard(vortec)""GM.CMPRET" - I'm showing a reading of -35 degrees (+/-3). Is this correct or is something off with the distributor/cam/timing set? I've been told that cam position should be very close to zero but I'm not sure if that's what this is or if it's a totally different reading.

-When scanning the PID "Current Gear""GM.GEAR" - Should it actually show the gear or does this particular PID not supported in this computer? I just noticed that it shows "1" all the time, no matter what gear range I'm in.

hquick
January 4th, 2010, 05:25 PM
Yeah...CMPRET needs to be +/-2deg at approx 1200rpm.
Use the bidi controls to set your rpm to 1200 and adjust the dizzy until you see..ideally zero or as close as possible. Sounds like you may be a tooth out.

hquick
January 4th, 2010, 05:36 PM
Here's a shot from a log of mine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/CMPRET.jpg

truethinker
January 4th, 2010, 05:43 PM
okay, Thanks Howard. I wonder if that's causing my odd spark retard situation. . .

I'll get that fixed tomorrow and see what happens.

hquick
January 4th, 2010, 05:46 PM
I'm sure it wouldn't be helping...and is the very likely culprit.

Aloicious
January 5th, 2010, 07:03 AM
take two

??? are those the offset tables he gave you??? thats simply a ford injector data sheet. see here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/ics/m-9593-aa302.pdf
taken from here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=9043

if thats the case, I wouldn't use those numbers. unless I'm mistaken, even though they're all in the same units, Ford and GM use different ways of calculating and using the injector offsets. so plugging ford #'s into GM tables won't result in correct calibrations.

I always thought FIC used stock GM injectors and told people to just use stock GM calibrations for them?

truethinker
January 5th, 2010, 07:44 AM
yea, I asked Jon about the offset tables and which injectors would work the best. I said he felt these would work best for me and that I shouldn't really even have to change the offset table information since they are designed to be mostly the same as OEM settings. . . .

The only settings I changed were the flow rate and the minimum injector pulse width and default minimum pulse width tables. It really seems to work a lot better from the first start. We'll see what happens once I get the dizzy aligned correctly.

truethinker
January 6th, 2010, 04:46 PM
Got the cam position retard dialed in. Haven't seen the spark retard issue since but it's only been a day.

Needs a lot of tuning work. Idles horribly, tried to die out when I put it in gear. Runs very rich. Idles down to around 300 after revving it up in park then levels itself back out.

Seems to be doing okay though otherwise.

truethinker
January 6th, 2010, 04:47 PM
I still wonder why Jon sent me the injectors that he did. Knowing that I wanted something totally compatible and tunable with my platform. . .

hquick
January 6th, 2010, 05:44 PM
Hmmm...may pay to ring and ask him. Maybe he knows something about them we don't.
First thing I'd do if I were you is go through the RAFIG/RAFPN process. Should make it idle alot easier for starters...then you could do it again as you start tuning.