Tuning RAFIG and RAFPN NEED HELP PLEASE

[z28ls1818]

Well I'am a noob when it comes to tuning. I read the RAFIG and RAFPN how to's. My log file is included, after logging I don't know what to do. Meaning if my map says -.35 at 90 degrees F, I dont know how to translate that into adjusting the tuning file. By the way I'am running a roadrunner and I know my datat is lbs/min. Reason for this is that This is how my tunning software is showing the data. I converted everything to imperial. Please if anyone can help thanks.

[z28ls1818]

Well I'am a noob when it comes to tuning. I read the RAFIG and RAFPN how to's. My log file is included, after logging I don't know what to do. Meaning if my map says -.35 at 90 degrees F, I dont know how to translate that into adjusting the tuning file. By the way I'am running a roadrunner and I know my datat is lbs/min. Reason for this is that This is how my tunning software is showing the data. I converted everything to imperial. Please if anyone can help thanks.

EDIT: Forgot to add mods. See below.

98z28 converted to 02os via rr pcm.
GM ASA CAM 226/236 110 lsa .525 lift.
Fast 90mm/90mm NW TB
AR 1 3/4'' headers with catted y.
SLP UD Pulley
EGR and Air Deleted
3600 ss yank stall
SSRA
85mm lid
85mm maf.

[WeathermanShawn]

I believe there is a complete tutorial or thread of RAFIG. Since the tune files are normally logging in g/s would really help.

http:////forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4661&highlight=RAFIG (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4661&highlight=RAFIG)

That might get you straight on what pids, units, etc. I think you need logging your Short and Long-term Idle Trims vs ECT.

[z28ls1818]

I saw that thread already. All I did different was use lbs min. Idont see whats the big issue with using this. If I have to subtact or add in my tune file it will be in lbs min and not gms. Isnt the only difference the amount? since lbs and gms are diff. But the same concept. I need to know how you guys get the # to adjust in the tune file.

[WeathermanShawn]

I would PM Joecar, or wait until he reads the thread.

He can explain in one or two sentences on how to get you straight.

I believe I just selected metric units for RAFIG and logged ECT vs the Short and Long Term Idle Trims.

[z28ls1818]

ok i converted this is what i get this is the RAFPN MAP

90 degrees F -.02 lbs/min = -0.151197
111 degrees F -.47 lbs/min = -3.561
133 degrees F -.59 lbs/min = -4.451843
154 degrees F -.59 lbs/min = -4.135288
176 degrees F -.52 lbs/min = -3.943789
198 degrees F -.49 lbs/min = -3.678430
219 degrees F -.45 lbs/min = -3.366041 (on this one the fans came on, i kept on recording for about 3mins more after they were on.)

do the negs mean subtract that much?
so if in my tune file reads as follows below(note i converted them to grms/sec already)
this is the park and neutra RAFPN TABLE


90 20.320939
111 18.650207 do i have to subtract 3.561?
133 17.070193 do i have to subtract -4.451843?
154 15.709416
176 14.658594
198 13.978205
219 13.607771


is this how it works?

another question when i log RAFIG do i have to put the car in gear? common sense would say yes since this is IN GEAR lol . Just let meknow if this is correct in putting into gear? Thanks again

[joecar]

Here's what I use: http://www.onlineconversion.com/

Goto Flowrate and then to Flowrate [mass].

[joecar]

I'm not very practiced on RAFIG... I can't easily visualize the tables, I need to spend more time practicing (heads/cam will soon speed up my learning).

I would use the same units as in SSpdDmon's tutorial (metric g/s for any flowrate)...

Be sure your scantool (Data tab) and tunetool are using the same flowrate units and MAP units, and do the tutorial over again.

[z28ls1818]

Here's what I use: http://www.onlineconversion.com/

Goto Flowrate and then to Flowrate [mass].


i used the efi live tuner conversion table. and compared this one that you posted its exactly the sme:).

[z28ls1818]

ok back to adding and subtracting from the tables. if it says -4.45 for 133 degrees, does this mean this is what i subtract from the desired idle airflow for the PN position at 133?

[joecar]

i used the efi live tuner conversion table. and compared this one that you posted its exactly the sme:).That's good to use, I see Paul has made it quite extensive...:cheers:

[joecar]

Yes, add -4.45 (what units) --> same as subtrat +4.45.

[z28ls1818]

I'm not very practiced on RAFIG... I can't easily visualize the tables, I need to spend more time practicing (heads/cam will soon speed up my learning).

I would use the same units as in SSpdDmon's tutorial (metric g/s for any flowrate)...

Be sure your scantool (Data tab) and tunetool are using the same flowrate units and MAP units, and do the tutorial over again.

i will re do it. but this still dosnt change the fact that i dont know what to do with the average data that it puts on the map. if it says - do i subtract by that # and if it says 4 and th e- does that mean add by that #? this is whats got me stumped. lol

[z28ls1818]

Yes, add -4.45 (what units) --> same as subtrat +4.45.



wow lol. this got me confused.

so you saying if it says -4.45 i have to add by that much instead of subracting? example
it says -4.45 so will add 4.45 instead of subtracting right?

[joecar]

Sorry didn't mean to confuse you...

add -4.45 ==same-as==> subtract 4.45 from cell.

example: showpost.php?p=52513&postcount=6 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=52513&postcount=6)


(adding a negative ==same-as==> subtracting the positive)

[z28ls1818]

ok i am still confused , its me not you . me noob.


my map logged
133 degrees -4.45 gms/sec

on my tunning tool i will type in -4.45 in the adjust box and click on the increase/decrease button right?

or do i just put in 4.45 without the - sign then click on increase/decrease.

[joecar]

ok back to adding and subtracting from the tables. if it says -4.45 for 133 degrees, does this mean this is what i subtract from the desired idle airflow for the PN position at 133?

ok i am still confused , its me not you . me noob.


my map logged
133 degrees -4.45 gms/sec

on my tunning tool i will type in -4.45 in the adjust box and click on the increase/decrease button right?

or do i just put in 4.45 without the - sign then click on increase/decrease.


Paste in -4.45 (with the negative sign) in the "Adjust:" box and press "+/-".

i.e. include the negative sign.

[z28ls1818]

Paste in -4.45 (with the negative sign) in the "Adjust:" box and press "+/-".

i.e. include the negative sign.



ok got it now. now i have to figure out how to filter the data i already have. can you run me thorugh the steps please lol:grin:

[joecar]

ok got it now. now i have to figure out how to filter the data i already have. can you run me thorugh the steps please lol:grin:No worries... :rockon:

SSpdDmon says to filter out all data that is not for the current cell you're working on...

e.g. if you're working on cell 176°F, then create a map filter which excludes all frames where ECT < 175°F and ECT > 177°F...

i.e. on the map tab, you have to create a new filter for that;

then for the remaining data use the average (button with x-bar)... this is the data you add/subtract into the cell at 176°F.

repeat this for each cell in the table... after filtering (on the new cell) if you find that no data remains, skip this cell, goto the next cell.

[z28ls1818]

No worries... :rockon:

SSpdDmon says to filter out all data that is not for the current cell you're working on...

e.g. if you're working on cell 176°F, then create a map filter which excludes all frames where ECT < 175°F and ECT > 177°F...

i.e. on the map tab, you have to create a new filter for that;

then for the remaining data use the average (button with x-bar)... this is the data you add/subtract into the cell at 176°F.

repeat this for each cell in the table... after filtering (on the new cell) if you find that no data remains, skip this cell, goto the next cell.

tired this and it erases all cells to nothing showing. blank basically wtf :help2:

[DrkPhx]

tired this and it erases all cells to nothing showing. blank basically wtf :help2:


Either the filter is not setup correctly or there are no recorded values in the filtered area.

[WeathermanShawn]

The goal is to find how much Idle Airflow is required for each of the ECT Values.

I might suggest you repeat the RAFIG once you have it figured out. So far your values seem unusually large.

To get a good RAFIG your VE Table and MAF Calibration Table should be as accurate as possible. If they are not correct, what is happening is that your Short and Long-term Idle trims will have a very large correction value when you do RAFIG.

RAFIG is generally more useful when your VE Table and MAF airflow is nailed down.

[z28ls1818]

which values seem large?
the once that i logged or the ones in my tune already?
i reduced the ammount on a separate tune just to see what the slope on the grid for the desired airflow would likke and its a beautiful slope nice and even.


OP:

I know you are frustrated right now, but the goal is to find how much Idle Airflow is required for each of the ECT Values.

I can't help you on the in and outs of the scan tool, units, etc..but I might suggest you repeat the RAFIG once you have it figured out. So far your values seem unusually large.

To get a good RAFIG your VE Table and MAF Calibration Table should be as accurate as possible. If they are not correct, what is happening is that your Short and Long-term Idle trims will have a very large correction value when you do RAFIG.

Any member is free to correct me, but RAFIG is generally more useful when your VE Table and MAF airflow is nailed down.

I know you are trying to just get the process down, but I am just trying to point out the big picture here, so you can understand what is happening.

How is the process going so far?

..WeathermanShawn..

[WeathermanShawn]

ok i converted this is what i get this is the RAFPN MAP

90 degrees F -.02 lbs/min = -0.151197
111 degrees F -.47 lbs/min = -3.561
133 degrees F -.59 lbs/min = -4.451843
154 degrees F -.59 lbs/min = -4.135288
176 degrees F -.52 lbs/min = -3.943789
198 degrees F -.49 lbs/min = -3.678430
219 degrees F -.45 lbs/min = -3.366041 (on this one the fans came on, i kept on recording for about 3mins more after they were on.)

I was referring to the above values. If that is your latest log, I meant -3 to -4 g/s is a lot (IMO).

Just puzzled by the amount of correction taking place.

[z28ls1818]

I may be missing something, but I was referring to the above values. If that is your latest log, I meant -3 to -4 g/s is a lot (IMO). But, if you are getting different readings I may have missed it.

Sorry, not trying to sidetrack you. Just puzzled by the amount of correction taking place. Anybody else have a comment?

..WeathermanShawn..


well my cars tune isnt complete. mostly idle issues. this is why im trying to get the rafpn down first and the rafig. ass ssdemon says to do. then ill work on the idle dipping down to much. its funny cause right now when my idle dips down in park when the car is in operating temps, and if i play with the idle and raise the idle to 900 instead of 800 it wont dip anymore. but i dont believe this is the best way to fix this. this is why im trying ss demons writeup.

[DrkPhx]

Can you post a screen shot of the actual values in Airflow tables (Metric) from the tune itself? What are the details of the setup? I have the same MAP setup and when I view the log, it shows -.2.61 gm/s (104-212 F) as an average which is not that unusual considering you're trying to drop the idle rpm 100 rpms. Depending on the size of the cam and tranmission (auto or manual) that usually takes some time and patience to nail it.

BTW - You can change the values in the MAP to Metric by clicking Edit map properties with the MAP displayed and change the Parameter by selecting the metric version of the parameter. Or you can change the properties of the Airflow table itself in the tuning software. Either way, they should match for simplicity sake.

[z28ls1818]

Can you post a screen shot of the actual values in Airflow tables (Metric) from the tune itself? What are the details of the setup? I have the same MAP setup and when I view the log, it shows -.2.61 gm/s (104-212 F) as an average which is not that unusual considering you're trying to drop the idle rpm 100 rpms. Depending on the size of the cam and tranmission (auto or manual) that usually takes some time and patience to nail it.

BTW - You can change the values in the MAP to Metric by clicking Edit map properties with the MAP displayed and change the Parameter by selecting the metric version of the parameter. Or you can change the properties of the Airflow table itself in the tuning software. Either way, they should match for simplicity sake.


how do i post a screen shot?

[DrkPhx]

Post your tune.

[z28ls1818]

Here it is

[DrkPhx]

That is alot of airflow in the Desired Airflow Table and some pretty high spark values at idle. The MAF table is kind of tweaked. Is this a stroker motor? What are the details of your setup?

[WeathermanShawn]

Nothing personal their Z28. That is literally the highest Desired Airflow amounts (B4307) I have ever seen.

And, please do not take it as ridicule. I have a moderately aggressive cam with 10 degrees of overlap, and I am running no more than 7-8 g/s anywhere. I am idling at 775 Rpm's.

I am just curious. Why not start with stock, or take the 2002 Corvette Z06 Desired Airflow Table as a starter.

How did you come up with those amounts (again, no ridicule)?

That is a lot of airflow..

[z28ls1818]

Maf is setup exactly as a z06. My maf is a dephi maf 85mm

[DrkPhx]

I usually use the DVT feature in the scan tune to make real time adjustments to the idle to see what works or not. Since you have RR, I would reduce the Desired Airflow values until it idles smoothly.

[z28ls1818]

yES i know they are high lol. this is why the correction in my log was so much?

car never wanted to stay on without that air.


Wow!

Nothing personal their Z28. That is literally the highest Desired Airflow amounts (B4307) I have ever seen.

And, please do not take it as ridicule. I have a moderately aggressive cam with 10 degrees of overlap, and I am running no more than 7-8 g/s anywhere. I am idling at 775 Rpm's.

I am just curious. Why not start with stock, or take the 2002 Corvette Z06 Desired Airflow Table as a starter.

How did you come up with those amounts (again, no ridicule)?

That is a lot of airflow..

..WeathermanShawn..

[z28ls1818]

I usually use the DVT feature in the scan tune to make real time adjustments to the idle to see what works or not. Since you have RR, I would reduce the Desired Airflow values until it idles smoothly.

thats the ting it idles smoot lol. i just think it can be done alot better. this is why i want to get the rafpn done right and the rafig. then ill work on the rest of the idle stuff.

[WeathermanShawn]

As a rough guide..when you are idling if you log MAF Frequency and MAF Airflow..and do it all in g/s...What you will generally see is that the MAF airflow vs ECT will be very closed to your RAFIG values.

You can also convert the VE Table into g/s and generally it will also match. Normally at idle and ECT above 176F, you normally see a MAF and VE airflow near 7-8 g/s also.

[DrkPhx]

thats the ting it idles smoot lol. i just think it can be done alot better. this is why i want to get the rafpn done right and the rafig. then ill work on the rest of the idle stuff.



its funny cause right now when my idle dips down in park when the car is in operating temps, and if i play with the idle and raise the idle to 900 instead of 800 it wont dip anymore

Per your post above, the car idle fine at 900 rpms with the existing airflow values, but dips when you attempt to lower it to 800 right?

Reduce the airflow based on the average recorded value in the RAFIPN map in your log and that should help. This should be relatively easy with RR.

[DrkPhx]

Reduce the airflow based on the average recorded value in the RAFIPN map in your log and that should help. This should be relatively easy with RR

I should clarify that and say "adjust" the airflow based on the average recorded value (+ or -). Sorry about that.

[z28ls1818]

That is alot of airflow in the Desired Airflow Table and some pretty high spark values at idle. The MAF table is kind of tweaked. Is this a stroker motor? What are the details of your setup?

which table are you talking about in spark values? Bxxxx?

how can i fix the high spark? meaning its pulling alot of timing to keep my idle stable right?

[DrkPhx]

The idle spark values are actually controlled in a few tables; High and Low Octane Spark tables and Base Spark in Gear/Base Spark in P/N. Look in the lower rpm-grams/cylinder area (0-1600 rpm x .008-.032 grams/cyl) of each table on your tune and you can see how they are all the same. This is good, however 25 degrees of spark appears to be high but it's hard to say without knowing the details of your setup. I run that much, but it's a high compression LS2 402 with a healthy cam.


Look in these tables:
B5913
B5914
B5932
B5933

[mr.prick]

The RAFIG values are very high, it should be 0.00 to -0.03lbs/min
Do you have a drilled TB or have you adjusted the idle screw?
What does AFR look like?

[z28ls1818]

The RAFIG values are very high, it should be 0.00 to -0.03lbs/min
Do you have a drilled TB or have you adjusted the idle screw?
What does AFR look like?



yes i have messed with it. i opened just a tad bit because it was sticking. very minor i opened, this messed with my idle a bit. this is why my values are so high. afr is rich in open loop but comes down to 13 in in closed loop.

[z28ls1818]

yes i have messed with it. i opened just a tad bit because it was sticking. very minor i opened, this messed with my idle a bit. this is why my values are so high. afr is rich in open loop but comes down to 13 in in closed loop.

tb is drilled to a stock size hole. i am using nw tb 90 mm

[z28ls1818]

98z28 converted to 02os via rr pcm.
GM ASA CAM 226/236 110 lsa .525 lift.
Fast 90mm/90mm NW TB
AR 1 3/4'' headers with catted y.
SLP UD Pulley
EGR and Air Deleted
3600 ss yank stall
SSRA
85mm lid
85mm maf.

this is my setup

[z28ls1818]

The RAFIG values are very high, it should be 0.00 to -0.03lbs/min
Do you have a drilled TB or have you adjusted the idle screw?
What does AFR look like?

i will be redoing my afr tomorrow, i wont mess with anything until i get this down right. then ill mess and relog my rafig.

[WeathermanShawn]

GM ASA CAM 226/236 110 lsa .525 lift.


I have always been impressed by that cam. When you get all this straighten out, please let us know how it runs!

WeathermanShawn..

[z28ls1818]

I have always been impressed by that cam. When you get all this straighten out, please let us know how it runs!

WeathermanShawn..



car made 389 rwhp and 369 torque at 5600 rpms through a 6 speed, i know it has alot more in it. my afr was in the 11s when it was at wot. it wasnt my tuen then though lol.

[WeathermanShawn]

car made 389 rwhp and 369 torque at 5600 rpms through a 6 speed, i know it has alot more in it. my afr was in the 11s when it was at wot. it wasnt my tuen then though lol.

Well, that is some pretty good numbers. I like that cams TQ curve.

Yea, I noticed in your tune that your PE Table (B3618) has some pretty rich values. When you get this car perfectly tuned, and lean out that AFR..you should really pick up some power.

[mr.prick]

yes i have messed with it. i opened just a tad bit because it was sticking. very minor i opened, this messed with my idle a bit. this is why my values are so high. afr is rich in open loop but comes down to 13 in in closed loop.

AFR in CL is rich or are you using Ethanol/something else?
What injectors are you using?

[z28ls1818]

AFR in CL is rich or are you using Ethanol/something else?
What injectors are you using?

stock 28lbs. yes its rich, i can smell the gas lol, ill get it fixed tomorrow.

[z28ls1818]

heres my log file while attempting the auto ve tell me what you think

[z28ls1818]

i was looking through the file and im noticing its pulling timing on the wot runs. this would explain why the car feels like it nose dives up top. none the less car pulls like a raped ape. i have 315s out back and it makes them feel like 5'' width tires. almost like skating on ice lol. towards the end of hte log file are my wot runs check them out and tell me what you think about the timing being pulled

forgot to mention dont bother lookking at the maps. i didnt save the afr map i had made so its not on there for some reason. the map you see is because i was starting to tune the maf part of it but my laptop was dying. the charts though are from the sd part of tuning

[mr.prick]

You need to log GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA to track the KR.