PID availability

[LinearX]

I've got a question about PID availability on different models of the same style PCM, Gen III LS1 99-08, in this example.

Here is the scenario:

A friend of mine had a 2000 Silverado with an LQ4. It was running the stock OS, 09381344. We installed an electric fan, then he decided he wanted to try lean cruise on it. We flashed the OS to 12212156, which is a 2002 Silverado with an LQ4.

I have a 2002 Z06 that is running the stock OS, 12212156.

Here is what I've encountered:

When logging his truck, I only have the option for Injector Pulsewidth Bank 1 yet not bank 2. On my Corvette, I have the option for both banks.

When logging his truck, I can log VE lookup. On my Corvette, I have a calculated VE PID, but not the lookup.

I'm curious as to whether this is hardware or software driven since we're running the same version OS, albeit for different vehicles. I'm sure there are other difference, but these are the two that I can recall from memory.

Does anyone know?



Edit:

I apologize, but this may be posted in the wrong section. Perhaps in GenIII or Scanning?

[joecar]

Hi LX, welcome to the forum...:cheers:

Have you tried these things (on both vehicles):
- validating pids when connect to vehicle (Info->Validate PIDs),
- uncheck the Supported box on the PIDs tab,
- on the pids tab, click on the column heading "Caption" to sort alphabetically on that column, then scroll down until you see IBPW1, IBPW2, VETABLE_DMA.

Joe

[LinearX]

Hi LX, welcome to the forum...:cheers:

Have you tried these things (on both vehicles):
- validating pids when connect to vehicle (Info->Validate PIDs),
- uncheck the Supported box on the PIDs tab,
- on the pids tab, click on the column heading "Caption" to sort alphabetically on that column, then scroll down until you see IBPW1, IBPW2, VETABLE_DMA.

Joe

Hey, Joe...

It's been about a week since I've been connected to the truck, but I have a saved log that I can open if that is of any help. If not, I have access to the truck anytime I need it, so getting a validated PID list isn't an issue.

I do recall unchecking the "Supported" button at one point, but I don't recall specifically looking for IBPW1 and IBPW2. I only noticed the inability after talking to Marcin.

Just so I'm not spreading misinformation, I'll verify with connectivity to the truck PCM.

[mr.prick]

Sometimes a PID will be invalid before connection to the vehicle is established or logging begins.

[LinearX]

Sometimes a PID will be invalid before connection to the vehicle is established or logging begins.

I'll connect again and verify. It will probably be tomorrow evening before I have access to it again, but I'll get solid information.

[LinearX]

Ok, time for me to eat some crow here.

First, I looked at the OS numbers incorrectly, and there is a different OS in my Z06 vs. the 2002 OS we put into the Silverado.

Second, connected to the 2000 Silverado today and IPW banks 1 and 2 available. I could swear that only bank 1 was available with the 2000 OS, but I won't swear to that.

Third, when connected to the Silverado I do have the VE lookup where as my Z06 I do not. Curious difference.

Also, I do not find a MAT PID in the list even when I uncheck the supported box. Is that an availabe PID in EFI that I'm missing some place?

Even still, with, or so I assume, similar hardware would the differences in PID availability be software driven or hardware driven?

Sorry for the barrage of dumb questions again.

[joecar]

The VETABLE_DMA pid is dependent on the scantool software...

what build version are you using...?

[LinearX]

The VETABLE_DMA pid is dependent on the scantool software...

what build version are you using...?

The latest non-beta. I can't recall the build number off the top of my head, but I checked for updates and there were none.

[LinearX]

How do I go about requesting an existing PID be enabled for a certain platform?

[redhardsupra]

you ask Paul and Ross nicely, promise them that I'm gonna do some good experiements on it. Which is actually true ;)

[LinearX]

Bias lag filter PID.

Is there such a way that we could get a PID for the bias lag filter? I think that being able to log that would help in being able to determine how/when it affects bias temperature blending.

[WeathermanShawn]

Bias lag filter PID.

Is there such a way that we could get a PID for the bias lag filter? I think that being able to log that would help in being able to determine how/when it affects bias temperature blending.

I agree.

I have the following Calculated PID working pretty good as referenced in another thread. http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=12848&page=15.

CALC.VE_BLEND = {SAE.MAF.gps}*({SAE.IAT.C}+(({SAE.ECT}-{SAE.IAT})*{CALC.BLEND})+273.15)/((displacement()*61.024)*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})* 212544

If we are talking about Table B4902 Charge Temperature Filter, that would be nice. Can you do it through just using the lookup table parameters, or is it more difficult than that?

LinearX, are we talking about the same filter?

[LinearX]

I agree.

I have the following Calculated PID working pretty good as referenced in another thread. http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=12848&page=15.

CALC.VE_BLEND = {SAE.MAF.gps}*({SAE.IAT.C}+(({SAE.ECT}-{SAE.IAT})*{CALC.BLEND})+273.15)/((displacement()*61.024)*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})* 212544

If we are talking about Table B4902 Charge Temperature Filter, that would be nice. Can you do it through just using the lookup table parameters, or is it more difficult than that?

LinearX, are we talking about the same filter?

Shawn, I am, indeed, referring to B4902.

[WeathermanShawn]

I heard it could be a tough one to get as a DMA PID.

Joecar gave me a possible explanation.

Paraphrased..

[B4902 is the ramp-in rate applied to the blended temp (or rather the rate at which the blended temp is applied to B0101)...

I.E. if the blended temp is T1 and then has to change to T2 (due to either ECT or IAT changing), B4902 is the rate at which the blended temp changes from T1 to T2...

...the time taken for blended temp to go from T1 to T2 would be something like B4902/(T2-T1) or B4902*(T2-T1)...

...the units (factor) of B4902 don't give us any clues... it could be K/s or s/K... the units would be a big clue...]

Other than a PID, one way to work around it would be filter out rapid IAT changes. Probably not the answer you are looking for, but at least a 'work-around' B4902.

It would at least minimize its effect..

[redhardsupra]

Shawn, you're overthinking this. Start with the simple case: you know MAT is correct, just solve for GMVE. That's relatively simple. Only when you understand that in and out, you wanna venture out into the dangerous land of bias and lag.

[WeathermanShawn]

Shawn, you're overthinking this. Start with the simple case: you know MAT is correct, just solve for GMVE. That's relatively simple. Only when you understand that in and out, you wanna venture out into the dangerous land of bias and lag.

Your right.

What is MAT?
What is GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA actually describing?

No description exists (done searches). One thing I can promise you is I am going to stay out of the temperature biases and lag world. It borders on impossible.

Problem is I need a 'charge temperature equivalent' (none for my OS).

[redhardsupra]

MAT as in Manifold Aircharge Temperature. It's the final temperature estimator value, after all the bias/lag stuff is done and over with. It's available on some platforms, because I've been doing experiments, and Ross/Paul been kind enough to help me out.

[WeathermanShawn]

MAT as in Manifold Aircharge Temperature. It's the final temperature estimator value, after all the bias/lag stuff is done and over with. It's available on some platforms, because I've been doing experiments, and Ross/Paul been kind enough to help me out.

O.K. that was helpful.

That has not reached the masses yet.

[LinearX]

O.K. that was helpful.

That has not reached the masses yet.

I just upgraded to the latest beta version of the software, and the GM.DYNAIRTMEP_DMA PID became available on the 12212156 OS for a Chevy Silverado and OS 12221588 for my 2002 Corvette.

If you're running either of those OSes, MAT may be available to you should up upgrade.

[WeathermanShawn]

I just upgraded to the latest beta version of the software, and the GM.DYNAIRTMEP_DMA PID became available on the 12212156 OS for a Chevy Silverado and OS 12221588 for my 2002 Corvette.

If you're running either of those OSes, MAT may be available to you should up upgrade.

Thanks LinearX.

I have the GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA. Do you know exactly how it is computed? I did a log yesterday.

For example:

ECT: 95C,
IAT: -8C,
GM.DYNAIRTMP was 14.9C,
Blending Factor was .024.

It ranged from 0.0C to 52C..

I have done search. There is no Pid description. Is it telling me the blending temp? Do you know?

Thanks for the heads up. It is not always easy to find some of the Pid descriptions.

[redhardsupra]

Shawn, care to post the logs and the tune they resulted from? I'd like to verify it myself. Linear and myself done a lot of similar stuff, and we haven't noticed the same thing.

[WeathermanShawn]

1. Tune: CLSD

Log 1: Denver-Limon (CO).
Log 2: Limon-Denver (CO).

Some of the look-up Calculated blending Pid lagged. But GM.DYNAIRTMP Logged successfully.

I was comparing this to the a CALC.VE CLMAF Tune from last week.

[LinearX]

Thanks LinearX.

I have the GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA. Do you know exactly how it is computed? I did a log yesterday.

For example:

ECT: 95C,
IAT: -8C,
GM.DYNAIRTMP was 14.9C,
Blending Factor was .024.

It ranged from 0.0C to 52C..

I have done search. There is no Pid description. Is it telling me the blending temp? Do you know?

Thanks for the heads up. It is not always easy to find some of the Pid descriptions.

I can't say with 100% certainty that I know how it's calculated, but the formula for the GM.DYNAIRTEMP PID (MAT) is:

IAT+(ECT-IAT)*factor

Now, how GM does that calculation with the rest of the system involved, I'm not sure that anyone knows yet.

[WeathermanShawn]

Maybe its the same PID?

[LinearX]

Maybe its the same PID?

It is not just ECT-IAT..Interesting..

The lag filter is, or should be, a piece of the puzzle.

[redhardsupra]

i'm not seeing IPW in these logs. how do you do mass estimates? do you use MAF lookups to get that?

[redhardsupra]

see, this is where i'm not being an asshole, you're just being oversensitive. how am i supposed to ask a question when everything i say you take as some sort of personal dis?

Back to regular programming. When I log, try to get airmass numbers from as many sources as possible. SD, MAF they are all predictors. Airmass backcalculated from fuel consumption (this is why you need IPW) is the only observation we got of what actually happened, that's why I deem it to be rather important, and it tends to be the first thing I go after.

[redhardsupra]

Shawn, you're right in saying that this log does not exemplify the MAT=IAT+(ECT-IAT)*BIAS formula.

However, why it fails, is difficult to say. We don't know a lot of details here. For example, we don't know really how the BIAS values are picked: does everything in between 0-10g/sec get the same value, or is it interpolated with another value. Or is it done with a 'nearest neighbour' algorithm? maybe the 10,20,30...sort of axis doesn't really tell us the interval either, what if it's centroid located around 10, so the boundaries are really 5..15, 15..25 etc?

Lag is even worse, because we don't know whether it gets applied every firing cycle (variable amount of time, due to RPM), or some fixed amount of time (classic lag filters do that).

So if you want this to be solvable, I recommend you set your Lag Filter table to 1 (instant changes, no lag), and then I can show you how to solve no problem. Running OL and logging IPW is also helpful, as we can do much better attribution.

[WeathermanShawn]

Marcin, its impossible to decipher tone and demeanor via the Internet.

I have separate logs that I have done with every possible Injector Pid available. I run stock 28.8. I hit ~85-90% capacity at this altitude.

This particular project was to evaluate CLSD against the CALC.VE method. I used LTFTBEN's and PE Filter to attain a CLSD VE Table and am comparing it against a CALC.VE Tune.

[Chevy366]

Oooo , oooo , I pick Shawn as the A-hole :) , I have seen Marcin for years now and have seen his work years before Shawn's , besides it takes one to know one , since I am a big A-hole I can pick one out anywhere , and besides Weathermen are only right 40% of the time . :hihi:
Knowledge is power , but knowing how to use that power is knowledge . :secret: