Can't get this right

[eclispe1]

I have a 99 ls1 Camaro with a powerdyne 6psi kit. the car is bone stock except for a magnaflow cat back and a built 4l65e trans also meth injection set @3psi. I have been playing with this thing for three years now and it still does not run right. I guess I just don't get the auto ve tuning, I have started from scratch twice and still can't get it right. There is no dyno shop in Fort Myers that uses EFI Live so I can't even pay someone to help me in town. Would anyone like to help me out and at least give me a decent base tune for this car so I can build off that and hopefully learn how to do this the right way. My daily driver is an 08 Impala SS and I actually enjoy driving that car more because I just can't seem to get the Camaro right. That is sad that I enjoy the FWD more than LS1 boosted muscle.... I have had some awesome help on here before but I just don't seem to get all of what is said. I will post my latest tune and log file. I will really apreciate any help that I can get. I did manage to get the transmission to shift perfectly. I'm sure the fuel and spark are messed up. Even with the methanol it still detonates sometimes so I guess I need to pull some more timing also, I just don't know how much and where to pull it from.

[drdarthinvader]

look at log 0027-frame 7434 aits are at 48*c 118*f high intake temperatures will cause knocking
also you dont have a 2 bar mar sensor on the vehicle to log the boost ve tables a0009 only goes up to 104kpa .
a0008 should be set to 1.00 plus b3632 is also contributing fuel maybe 0 this table for consistency.
ive found by reducing b5935-b5936 does smooth idle noticeably

[johnv]

Need a few more details, what injectors are you running ? Fuel system ? base fuel pressure, useing a rising rate fuel regulator or not ?

Get a 2 bar MAP sensor so you can make the most of EFIlives 2 bar custom operating system.
and we'll see if we can help you peice together a tune.

[eclispe1]

I'm running the stock injectors, the boost is pressure referenced to kick in a second fuel pump which is working because I installed a light to come on when it is energized and when tested at the relay it does come on, I have no idea what the fuel pressure is.
I'm still trying to find out how to reach the map sensor on my car, it ia an auto and my hands won't fit all of the way behind the intake to pull it out and replace it.

[johnv]

It may be easier to remove the manifold to fit the MAP sensor ?

Don't go beating on it with your current tune, the second log showed you going dangerously lean at 100% throttle.

I think you will run out of injector pretty quick when you get your wide open fueling into line, so i would be looking for some bigger injectors.

[eclispe1]

Do you know what the stock size injectors are or what size do you recomend I get for it?

I think if I can find someone with small hands they can reach the map sensor, I will try to find someone this weekend to do it. I'm 6'4" with large hands and they just get stuck in there. I can feel it I just can't get it loose!

It has been raining for the last two days so I have not got it out to play with it yet, this is rare in Florida. My IAT's will always be high as our average temp here is around 95 most of the year, that is why I choose methanol to help cool the intake air. An intercooler will not fit with the Powerdyne kit, it has to be the worst engineered kit I have ever seen. I have to turn off the AC at stoplights so it does not overheat and I bought three of the best Spal fans you can get.

[johnv]

Do you know what the stock size injectors are or what size do you recomend I get for it?

I think if I can find someone with small hands they can reach the map sensor, I will try to find someone this weekend to do it. I'm 6'4" with large hands and they just get stuck in there. I can feel it I just can't get it loose!

It has been raining for the last two days so I have not got it out to play with it yet, this is rare in Florida. My IAT's will always be high as our average temp here is around 95 most of the year, that is why I choose methanol to help cool the intake air. An intercooler will not fit with the Powerdyne kit, it has to be the worst engineered kit I have ever seen. I have to turn off the AC at stoplights so it does not overheat and I bought three of the best Spal fans you can get.

I think the factory injectors will be 28lb/hr if your gonna upgrade go straight to 60 lb/hr.

Good luck with the Map sensor .

Meth is good , but i would tune without it first, then add the meth and alter the tune to suit.

[eclispe1]

Ok,
I got the MAP Sensor in and calibrated, threw a new set of plugs in (one range colder) and the car seems to running better then ever and I also took out the AIR system and the EGR system and blocked off the ports, updated the tune to reflect this change. I logged several ultra high speed runs and to my suprise I was in live mode not record so I did not capture any data. The knock readings were at zero and I don't know what the boost was as it is in KPA and I don't know how to convert to PSI. It is reading over 109 so I think the new sensor is working. It is pouring rain again so I will get some logs to post this weekend.....

[joecar]

To record, press the red button at the bottom of the scantool window.

On a chart you can select MAP.kPa or MAP.psi by rightclicking on the pid in the corner of the chart and then select Metric Pids or Imperial Pids, and then select the pid.

[eclispe1]

I thought I did press the red button but I guess I just got so excited to actually get the car out again that I forgot to do it!
Thank you for the instruction on how to change the pid as I really don't know about KPA and how to read the output.
I just can't wait for the rain to stop here so I can get a good log run in.

[joecar]

Rough guide:

100 kPa == 14.5 psi == barometric pressure = WOT normally aspirated.

Stock cam idles at about 33 kPa == 5 psi.

Of course, BOOST = MAP - BARO (in both kPa and psi).

[johnv]

Good job on the 2 bar sensor,
Post your latest tune file and i will add a few changes for you to try.

You do have a wideband right ?

[eclispe1]

Here is the latest log and tune file. The car seems to run extremely well right now and it is very cool out at 60 degrees.

[johnv]

Okay, your all out off injector !
hit 136 % duty cycle on the injectors in the log and fueling goes lean.

Should be aiming for 80-85% duty cycle max, so you need bigger injectors for sure.

42lb/hr at least but for the few extra $$$ i would get 60's.

Made some changes to your tune for you, but i woudn't be beating on it to much till you upgrade injectors.

[eclispe1]

Thank You so much.... I get my bonus next weekend so I will be buying the Injectors soon after.
This car is actually fun to drive again!

[johnv]

Glad to help...

Also how did you scale the 2 bar Map sensor ?
just you were only seeing 3 1/2 psi boost in the log, thought maybe the scaling may be a little off.

as long as you followed the tutorial should be all good,

with key on, engine not running , log what map sensor reads with std sensor (map kpa)
install the 2 bar sensor, set c6301 to 190 and log again, map kpa should be the same (key on engine off) if not alter c6301 value up or down until it matches.

[eclispe1]

I did follow the tutorial to set up the map sensor, my boost gauge was only reading 3or 4 lbs of boost which I don't understand because it is set up for 6lbs and the headunit was just rebuilt less than 1k mi ago.
I will try out your updated tune today after I get the last plug in, I got seven in pretty easy but this last one is not too easy to get to.

[eclispe1]

Here is quick run around the neighborhood with your tune, it runs really good but seems to idling a little high.

[johnv]

Try this one,

just make sure you log AFR and knock and don't go WOT till you sort injectors.

[Doc]

+1 on the injectors. 99 Fbody has 26lb'ers. If you ever head up north we use EFI Live at our shop.

[eclispe1]

Alright I have purchased the injectors and should have them installed this weekend.
I bought Siemens Deka "mototron" EV1 60lb/hr, now my question is what is the best way to set these up. After reading a few posts there seems to be several ways to tell the computer about the larger injectors. Can someone enlighten me on the best way?

[johnv]

this is what i use for the same injectors, runs fine.

You will need to go through the Auto VE process again though.

[eclispe1]

Ok the injectors are in and it seems to running fine except when you let off of the throttle it goes way too rich and it is really rich at idle. If someone could help me get it to a decent tune I would greatly appreciate it. I love this car and it keeps getting better from all of the help this forum has offered.
I could not do it withiout you guys, thank you....
Attached is my latest tune set up for the 60 lb/hr injectors and a quick log file.

[johnv]

use this tune for your auto VE tuneing.

there is no need to make PE table 14.63 when tuning , infact its risky on a boosted car. You will find looking at future logs even if commanded fuel changes as it does when car enters PE the Ben factors are still a factor of commanded verses actual AFR so the corrections will still be correct.

You will notice I have modified your commanded fuel table, and altered the parameters for power enrichment so it wont actvate until a MAP of 115-( a couple of ps1 of boost) This gives a better tansition of fueling as you enter boost.

You are just going to have to work on your VE tables now to get your fueling into line so actual = commanded. Idle should be easy to correct with the VE table.

once VE is dialed in it shouldent go rich on decel and you can also activate DFCO to help out there.

[eclispe1]

Hello Johnv,

I tried your tune and the AFR was all over the place and the car did not run right at all. I gathered data and did the first autove swap (log 39) and it made it worse. I will post both logs and the tune and see if you can see where the problem is. I looked it over and can't figure it out. It is still going way rich when you let off of the throttle.

[johnv]

the data in your Ben MAP doesn't look right, can't see how you can hit the high MAP cells you are in the 400 rpm row.

Maybe check your 2 bar Map sensor scaleing.
look into converting to serial logging for your wideband, gives more accurate AFR in logs

don't do any Auto VE tuneing until engine is up to operating temp.

Also add Airflow Grams/cyl -Speed density to your selected pids
so you can map knock retard.

[eclispe1]

I will rescale the map sensor to the old one, I was trying to avoid that but I guess it has to be done. I'm sure my wideband is dead on as I just did a new sensor and freeair calibration before I put the new plugs in, now maybe 30 miles since then. When it went into the 17afr range the car sputtered really bad so I'm positive it is working well. Could my settings for the new injectors be off? Maybe I missed something when changing values.

[eclispe1]

The MAP was off. The stock sensor reads 31 in hg and the 2 bar reads 29.2 in hg key on engine off. I don't know how to convert it so that it reads correctly.

[johnv]

Okay you need to follow the 2 bar operating system tutorial and make changes to the value in C6301 until the 2 bar sensor reads 31 (same as 1 bar sensor) can't recall wether you have to increase or decrease value, bit of trail and error sorry, but won't need big changes maybe add 2 or 3 and log it.

[johnv]

sure my wideband is dead on as I just did a new sensor and freeair calibration before I put the new plugs in, now maybe 30 miles since then. When it went into the 17afr range the car sputtered really bad so I'm positive it is working well. Could my settings for the new injectors be off? Maybe I missed something when changing values.

Yes your wideband is prob accurate , but its the numbers that EFIlive translate that can be off a bit useing analog output due to voltage offsets etc were as with serial cable what your wideband reads is what you see in the logs.

Your injector setup should be fine, its just a matter of dialing in your VE tables so commanded fueling is the same as actual.

Also what filters are you useing on your Ben map before pasteing into VE table ?

[joecar]

From the COS tutorial, page 14:

Configuring a 2 or 3-bar MAP sensor

When the key is on but the engine is not running, the MAP sensor reads the barometric air pressure, usually 101kPa (14.7psi). When tuning in high altitude areas it is worthwhile reading the MAP values (using EFILive’s Scan Tool) at key-on with the standard 1-bar sensor to obtain the barometric pressure at the current altitude.
After fitting your 2 or 3-bar MAP sensor, you must rescale the MAP sensor.

Engine Diagnostics->MAP->Parameters
• {C6301} MAP Sensor Scaler:



2-bar sensor: 190
3-bar sensor: 288


These values will get the MAP scaler’s value close to what it needs to be, you will then need to adjust it (by small amounts) until the MAP sensor reads the same barometric pressure that your standard 1-bar sensor was reading at key-on, engine-off.
Logging boost levels in the Scan Tool must be performed with the PID ‘SAE.MAP’.

[eclispe1]

I set up the Ben map exactly like the tutorial said and use the filters before the cut and paste to the tune. I did get the map sensor reading the same now so I will try to get some good logs to do the auto ve with.

[eclispe1]

I did get a good run or two in today and the car is still not right yet. When you let off of the throttle it is going way too rich and when you first get back into the throttle it goes way lean to the point that the car bucks before it goes. It feels great under acceleration it is pulling hard and no knocking and barely able to hold traction. Attached is the log file fdrom the run.

[johnv]

post up the tune you were running while doing the data logging.

The Ben map from the log after low cell count cells are hidden and filters applied, looks like it should start to correct your fueling in problem areas.

There is a bit of knock as well, easier to see if you open a MAP for Knock retard speed density.

[eclispe1]

Here is the tune that I was using.

[eclispe1]

I forgot to attach it, so here it is

[johnv]

Okay use this one for your next round of Auto VE logging, try to hit as many cells as you can, try holding 1st gear and slowly increasing rpm, then the same in 2nd and third, you can even load it up more by useing the brakes while applying throttle to hit cells you normally wouldn't.

[Chuck L.]

What did you find the FP to be?
[I saw a post requesting the setting.. haven't seen a reply.]
Tuning w/o knowing if the FP is correct, is going to create problems.

[johnv]

Yes good call, I assumed fuel rail pressure was still the factory 4 bar
(58 psi) and not rising rate (not boost referenced)

Also your Map sensor scaler seems quite high, did you log manifold MAP with key on engine off when you rescaled it ?

[joecar]

eclipse1, they're asking your if your FPR is manifold-referenced...?

[eclispe1]

I dont know the actual fuel pressure, the main fuel system is the stock in tank pump supplemented by a second pump connected directly to the fuel rail that is pressure referenced to kick in at a certain point usually around 2-3lbs of boost pressure.
I would not know how to read fuel pressure when you have two fuel systems in operation. I do have a light mounted in my pillar gauges to tell me when the second pump is in operation.
The MAP sensor was calibrated to read the same as the stock sensor with key on and engine off. It took several tries but it is the same as stock in the last tune that I posted.

Thank you again,
Greg:)

[Chuck L.]

I dont know the actual fuel pressure, the main fuel system is the stock in tank pump supplemented by a second pump connected directly to the fuel rail that is pressure referenced to kick in at a certain point usually around 2-3lbs of boost pressure.
I would not know how to read fuel pressure when you have two fuel systems in operation. I do have a light mounted in my pillar gauges to tell me when the second pump is in operation.
The MAP sensor was calibrated to read the same as the stock sensor with key on and engine off. It took several tries but it is the same as stock in the last tune that I posted.

Thank you again,
Greg:)

1. Using the stock pump: The stock fuel pump may be
"outrun" by the added inline pump. Doesn't the stock pump have the regulator in the tank w/ the pump?
Do you know if the stock system is working?
If the stock pump can't keep up w/ the add-on pump, the system is not going to work correctly. [Low volume].
2. Just because you see the lite on, does not mean the 2nd pump is working. Depending on where you are feeding the lite power,all it may be telling you is, that the relay is being powered. [The inline pump IS on a relay, and the stock pump is hotwired, right??]
3. Until you get a fuel press gauge on the rail, you cannot troubleshoot the system. A rail connection will tell you if the 2nd pump is working, or not. It will also tell what the real pressure is.
4. You can hook up a fuel press ga w/ a hose long enuf to put it under the wiper arm. This way you can see what the psi is while driving.
5. To test the 2nd pump: W/ eng running, trigger the 2nd pump, watch the ga.. 2 pumps running at idle, should bump the psi.
6. Are you using a second pressure regulator? How is this system controlled?? Is the intank, oem regulator the only 1 in the system? If so, we need to get the fuel flow under the control of one regulator.

Bottom line: U R "pounding sand in a rat hole" until you get a handle on the fuel system.. No amt of tuning is going to resolve your problem until you do that.

HTh,:hihi:

[johnv]

would probably be better just replaceing the intank pump with a walbro and leaving the factory regulator inplace ,
then do away with the second inline pump as it will cause a restriction in line when not running and fuel pressure will be uncontrolled when it is.

[eclispe1]

The stock fuel system is bone stock, no hotwire mod yet. I thought the regulator was on the fuel rail on the F body. I have the light wired to the hot side of the pressure switch after the relay and have jumpered it to test it and it is working perfectly as you can hear the pump kick in and see the fuel line move as it is pressureized with or without the car running. I'm pretty sure that the FMU controlls the pressure of the second pump, it came with the supercharger kit just for that purpose I would assume. I will try to get a gauge in the next few days to get some readings on the pressure. In the meantime I will try the auto ve one more time to see if I can get it closer. I'm out of money now and can't really afford to try anything else that requires a purchase for a little while.

[johnv]

If it is a rail mounted regulator you should be okay.

[joecar]

...
I thought the regulator was on the fuel rail on the F body.
...You mean stock LS1 F-body...?...no it's in the tank...

When you look at your fuel rail, you will see a can-looking thingy connected to the fuel rail crossover tube...

Two clues:
- does the can-looking thingy have an air hose going to the manifold...?
- does the can-looking thingy have an additional fuel line connected with a threaded union/nut...?

Look closely at it... on the stock F-body that can-looking thingy is the pulse dampner (and not the FPR)... it has no manifold air hose and no return fuel line... you should see only one fuel line going to the rail.

Do you have any pics...?

Edit: See attached diagrams of fuel rail, which one do you have...?

Dampner: IFR has to be sloped.
Regulator: IFR has to be flat.

If you have an aftermarket regulator, it will look different, be in a different location, but it will have all of these: fuel line (in), return line (out), reference air hose.

In both cases you need to measure rail pressure.

:)

[joecar]

If it is a rail mounted regulator you should be okay.If he has a rail mounted FPR (i.e. manifold-reference, return line), then his IFR table is wrong (it is sloped).

From what he said, it seems he has the stock FPR in the tank (no manifold-reference, no return line), in which case it is correct that his IFR is sloped... (but does his IFR match his rail pressure and injectors...?).

[eclispe1]

You are correct there is no return line or air connection, I just assumed that thing was thr fpr I guess you can tell that I'm not a mechanic! I'm dead broke right now and pending loss of employment so it will be awhile until I can get the fuel pressure readings. I will try the last tune posted and see how close I can get it. I might put the slicks on and go wild until I have enough data to finish the tune today.

[eclispe1]

We had a great day here in Florida and I got some data. I will post the two logs and the tune file. It seems to run really well except when you let off of the throttle it goes pig rich. Then when you first get on the throttle after letting off it goes way lean to the point that the car will buck a little then go. It did stall at idle several times while I'm sitting at lights.

[johnv]

Your fueling seems to be all over the place at low MAP and rpm,Where is the wideband sensor located ? any exhaust leaks ?

I'm wondering if you maybe have similar operating system problem to this thread - http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13235

also when i look at your Ben map from logs you seem to have alot of cell count hits in the 0-400 rpm row, yet when looking at the log you don't actually dip into that rpm range to often.

You really need to verify what fuel pressure you have and weather its fluctuating much esp when the second pump cuts in to enable IFR to be scaled correctly.