B3601 value for E10

[WHYTRYZ06]

i have it set for 14.12 afr.... so it changes my B3647 accordingly...

*NOTE* I RUN IN OLSD....NO MAF

question is....

should i leave my crusing and part throttle @ 14.39 afr and my wot @ 12.07 ( changed to this automaticly when i entered 14.12 (stoich for E10) afr in B3601 )

OR

leave my crusing and part throttle afr @ 14.91 and my wot afr @ 12.50 while still maintaining 14.12 afr in B3601 ( B3601 set to 14.63 afr )

remember E10 is roughly 1/2 point fatter in AFR....

ALSO, E10 is at every gas station now as far as i know

THOUGHTS????

THANKS

[5.7ute]

The percentage increase for PE or WOT should be a constant, so I would leave it as is.

[WHYTRYZ06]

leave WOT @ 12.07 AFR....????

[Epox4life]

leave WOT @ 12.07 AFR....????

12.07 x 1.035 = 12.49AFR

12.07AFR on E10 is equivalent to about 12.49AFR on E0 (regular fuel).

Source: http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=108628&postcount=169

[WHYTRYZ06]

12.07 x 1.035 = 12.49AFR

12.07AFR on E10 is equivalent to about 12.49AFR on E0 (regular fuel).

Source: http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=108628&postcount=169

rite so leave it at 12.07 afr... for E10

[Hib Halverson]

I know this is an old thread, but I encourage anyone who's tuning for E10 to actually test the fuel they use. A chemist at a racing gasoline blender told me a couple of years ago that most of the ethanol blended gasoline on the retail market is actually somewhere between 7 and 8% ethanol rather than 10%. I've also tested several samples of ethanol blended gasoline from premium gas pumps in my area and sure enough, they all were about 7-8%.

As a result I assume it's all E7 and set my stoic value at 14.2:1 = lambda 1.0.

[joecar]

I know this is an old thread, but I encourage anyone who's tuning for E10 to actually test the fuel they use. A chemist at a racing gasoline blender told me a couple of years ago that most of the ethanol blended gasoline on the retail market is actually somewhere between 7 and 8% ethanol rather than 10%. I've also tested several samples of ethanol blended gasoline from premium gas pumps in my area and sure enough, they all were about 7-8%.

As a result I assume it's all E7 and set my stoic value at 14.2:1 = lambda 1.0.
+1

I agree...

and the test kits are cheap.

[Hib Halverson]

"Test kit"? I didn't realize there was such a thing.

I guess I made my own test kit. I bought a graduated cylinder from Amazon. I put 100 ml of pump gas in it then add 10ml of water. Shake it up then let it sit. After a while the ethanol and water "settle out" at the bottom. Say you have 100 ml of gasoline "floating" on 18-ml of ethanol and water that's about "E8".

[joecar]

Yep, that's what the test kits are for about $5, some include a water soluble dye to better see.

[truethinker]

I'm about to start Tuning my 03 sierra and am wondering... do I need to change my B3601 to 14.12 - 14.2(depending on alcohol content) before I start tuning? I'm assuming yes.

If yes, do I then need to change the information in the software for my dual LC-1 Widebands pertaining to lambda?

Thanks

[Hib Halverson]

​The short answer?
Yes.

The long answer?
Well...I can only tell you what I did. That I was calibrating vehicles different than your truck (01 Camaro V6, 04 Corvette, 12 Corvette) what you need to do or not do might be different.

That said...the first thing I did was test some gasoline samples from stations in my area. I found the ethanol content varied a bit between 7% and 8%, based on info I researched, 7.5% ethanol required 12.25 for a stoich. value. Now, that can be put into the cal file as your stoich AFR but....like yourself I use an LC-1 and Innovate's software only allows "custom" stoich. entries to one decimal place. I entered 12.25 and it set in the LC-1 as 12.3, so....I decided to compromise and use 12.2 in both the calibration and the LC-1. 12.2:1 is about right for 8% ethanol.

As I operate my vehicles mainly in the People's Republik of California where all we can get is "E10-which-is-really E7/E8", I do this universally on any of my vehicles and, I mean even those with out engine controls. The one car I have with no computer and a carburetor, I jet the Holley for 14.2 stoich. and 12.2 for power enrichment, but...I digress

If you're going to go this route, take "joecar's" advice and buy one of those test kits and test your fuel to see how much ethanol is actually in it.

As for figuring the proper stoich. value for blended fuel, there are differing opinions on that and the difference seems to stem from how the stoich. of gasoline is determined. In part, because it's easy, most of the time I use the attached .xls file to figure that value.
18726

However, for a tech. article I wrote about DIY calibration a couple of years ago, I had to research tuning for ethanol-blended fuels and I did learn of some other methods. One of them is with the formulae in this .rtf file. but the results will be slightly different.
18727

Yet a third way to do it is with the attached table, but this table is for 10% ethanol, which some might feel is close enough.
18728

And finally...
(sigh)
...if you like working in EQ ratio, here's yet some more blended fuel info
18729

Are we having fun yet?
:cheers:
I thought so.

[truethinker]

Haha. Thanks Hib. There's no non-ethanol fuel left in PA either add far as I am aware. A buddy and I ran a test kit a while back and got 8.1% average so I figure 14.2 should be fine.

I'm gearing up to do calc.ve on my truck and already changed my B3601 to 14.20. I'm trying to use lambda and eqratio for everything but my main concern is this... I replaced my narrow bands with the lc-1's. Usig the analog output for the pcm and using serial connection for EFIlive. Just trying to make sure I don't ends up with a situation where they are fighting each other. So change B3601 AND change the programming inside the lc-1's. Now to find my adaptor to hook up to the lc-1's. Haha. Haven't needed to do that for a few years

[joecar]

I'm about to start Tuning my 03 sierra and am wondering... do I need to change my B3601 to 14.12 - 14.2(depending on alcohol content) before I start tuning? I'm assuming yes.

If yes, do I then need to change the information in the software for my dual LC-1 Widebands pertaining to lambda?

ThanksYes, set B3601 to the stoich AFR of the fuel you're running (I see that you have tested it).


If you're using Lambda from the LC-1, then there is no need to change any info (i.e. using Innovate's LM-Programmer software)...

( if you were using AFR from the LC-1, then you would have to tell it what the stoich AFR is )

this is one of the reasons why tuning should be done using Lambda (and/or EQR which is simply the mathematical inverse of Lambda).

[truethinker]

Thats great. Thanks Joe. So, just to clarify one last point...as I'm using the lc-1 narrow band simulator output for my pcm, is there anything I need to change pertaining to the switching point and how it perceives stoich? (Hopefully i asked that in an understandable way)

[joecar]

...

I'm gearing up to do calc.ve on my truck and already changed my B3601 to 14.20. I'm trying to use lambda and eqratio for everything but my main concern is this... I replaced my narrow bands with the lc-1's. Usig the analog output for the pcm and using serial connection for EFIlive. Just trying to make sure I don't ends up with a situation where they are fighting each other. So change B3601 AND change the programming inside the lc-1's. Now to find my adaptor to hook up to the lc-1's. Haha. Haven't needed to do that for a few years

Make sure you're doing Calc.VET (it is improved over Calc.VE), see post #1 here (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log)).

Yes, correct, you have your LC-1's connected for output to PCM 's NBO2 and to FSV2's serial comms...

post some logs showing the pids GM.HO2S11, GM.HO2S21, EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2LAM2, EXT.WO2EQR1.EXT.WO2EQR2...

(notice I did not mention EXT.WO2AFR1/2... I want to purposely avoid viewing AFR).

[truethinker]

Very good, I'll do that right now.

[Hib Halverson]

Make sure you're doing Calc.VET (it is improved over Calc.VE), see post #1 here (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log)).

Yes, correct, you have your LC-1's connected for output to PCM 's NBO2 and to FSV2's serial comms...

post some logs showing the pids GM.HO2S11, GM.HO2S21, EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2LAM2, EXT.WO2EQR1.EXT.WO2EQR2...

(notice I did not mention EXT.WO2AFR1/2... I want to purposely avoid viewing AFR).

Oppps.
"joecar" is right.
My bad on this.

I didn't read your earlier post carefully and figured you were using LC-1 data into analog. He's right. With the LC-1 connected to a comm port, entering a stoich. value for E8 gas is unnecessary.

[truethinker]

So I've been having an intermittent issue where one of my led indicators for the lc-1's aren't coming on. I assumed it was an led issue as I still had serial data for both units. Hooked up EFIlive and have no signal of any kind coming from the one unit. I'll get out the dvom and do some troubleshooting after work.

[Hib Halverson]

So I've been having an intermittent issue where one of my led indicators for the lc-1's aren't coming on. I assumed it was an led issue as I still had serial data for both units. Hooked up EFIlive and have no signal of any kind coming from the one unit. I'll get out the dvom and do some troubleshooting after work.

No LED means either there's no power to the WB controller or it's doing its air calibration sequence.

[joecar]

Thats great. Thanks Joe. So, just to clarify one last point...as I'm using the lc-1 narrow band simulator output for my pcm, is there anything I need to change pertaining to the switching point and how it perceives stoich? (Hopefully i asked that in an understandable way)It should be ok... when you log the NBO2 signal, you want to see swings from below 300 mV to above 600 mV several times per second (or faster)... if you don't see this, then you have the program the LC-1's NB analog channel to have a steeper slope on the V:AFR inverse-step-function.


( the LC-1 isn't really simulating the NBO2 signal... by having the inverse-step-function be sufficiently steep, the LC-1 is actually being a NBO2 sensor... it is driven by the actual exhaust O2 content, and because the inverse-step-function is so steep it causes the analog voltage output to switch just like an actual NBO2 sensor )

[joecar]

Which LED, is it the one you wire across the black and white wires (on the LC-1 black is not ground)...?

[monkeywrenched]

Why would you run 2 wide bands shouldn't one be enough?

[joecar]

Why would you run 2 wide bands shouldn't one be enough?You might just have two... and maybe you want to see if both banks behave the same... of course you can only use the lambda from one wideband, unless you use the average of both (you would need to create a calc pid for this).

[truethinker]

I've had this kit in for probably 3-4 years and has worked flawlessly until lately. Let's and switches were wired correctly(based on the fact that all functions operated properly). I directly replaced my narrow band sensors with the lc-1's and decided to do both sides to keep things functioning in a symmetrical fashion.

And yes, I do have an calc pid that averages the 2 lambda readings.

So update: neither sensor would give me a reading or led this evening. When I disconnect the serial connection between the two sensors all of a sudden the left hand sensor works perfectly. The right hand sensor still does not work. I checked the amperage draw and the working one draws 1.7amps upon start-up. The non-functional one draws 0.04 amps upon start up.

[truethinker]

Might it have glitched and dropped into a dead poll mode type of thing? I'm going to wire it to a battery in the shop tomorrow and see if lm programmer can see it. If not I guess I'll be calling innovate.

[joecar]

...

So update: neither sensor would give me a reading or led this evening. When I disconnect the serial connection between the two sensors all of a sudden the left hand sensor works perfectly. The right hand sensor still does not work. I checked the amperage draw and the working one draws 1.7amps upon start-up. The non-functional one draws 0.04 amps upon start up.Which V7/V8 software build versions are you using...?

Which V2 firmware are you runnning...?

[truethinker]

I very recently updated v7/v8 software and v2 firmware. I'll get the version numbers in the morning. I was referring to the lc-1 glitching up. Could the V2 have caused an issue with the LC-1? I wouldn't have thought so but that doesn't really mean that much

[joecar]

A few months ago there was a version of V2 firmware that had a problem with external pids...

[truethinker]

V7.5.7(build 283)
V8.2.2(build 276)
V2: Boot Block: 2.07.07
V2: Firmware: 2.07.82

[joecar]

I think your firmware version might have the external pid problem...

update to this: Aug-13-2015-EFILive-Public-Pre-Release (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?25856-Aug-13-2015-EFILive-Public-Pre-Release)

instructions:
- connect V2 to PC,
- install V7,
- install V8,
- start V8 S&T,
- click Check Firmware and follow what it says (update firmware and BBx config).

[truethinker]

Thanks Joe, for the firmware update note. I updated the software and firmware. I removed the non-functioning LC-1, powered directly off of an isolated battery. It took about 20 attempts but it finally connected with LM Programmer and I re-flashed the firmware (which actually downgraded from 1.21 to 1.10 as this was the version listed on the innovate site). Everything works perfectly now. I adjusted stoich to 14.2 in the LM Programmer and in B3601. Truck feels like it's running well and strangely enough it actually seemed to get better fuel mileage today.

Attached is a log of the PID's you asked for Joe, as well as some others.

If all looks good I'm going to try and do some actual CALC.VET work tomorrow.

[joecar]

Ok, I'll look at it later tonite.

[truethinker]

Thanks for all the help! I have done two Calc.VET logs and the MAF is perfect now(wasn't too far off to begin with). The hardest part is smoothing/blending the b0101 information in.