4l80e 4th gear and tcc problem (running from 4L60E segment)

[kkustomz]

I hope this is in the right post.

I have a 1993 chevy truck i swaped a 4l80e into, had a 4l60e
Howell efi did the computer and harness.
The truck has no 4th gear and no tcc apply, the scanner shows im in 3rd on the gear selector when i am in 4th. I checked all wires and are good. I can manually ground both solenoids at 55mph and it will shift into fourth, but still no tcc apply and yes the brake light wire is wired in and working. I am grounding them inside next to the ecm. I changed the ecm and no difference. Could it be the fluid pressure valve position switch? Should i be able to manually make the tcc apply by grounding?

Thanks for any help, I am stumped and no one has been able to help.

[joecar]

How did you wire the ECM to the 4L80E...?

Do you have a wire diagram for your ECM->4L60E and a wire diagram for the 4L80E you're using...?

The shift solenoid on/off table is different than the 4L60E.

The 4L60E (1993) TCC solenoid may be on a different wire than the 4L80E TCC PWM wire.

[slow67]

Other reasons could be a low pressure scenario (switching to a Sonnax Boost valve fixed my problem) or a bad Manual Valve Position Switch.

[kkustomz]

Howell Efi wired my harness and sent me a 7427 computer and chip. Yesterday i double checked the wiring that they sent me. If someone else has a wiring diagram i would be glad to compare and make sure its right.

The transmission was just rebuilt by a shop here in town. I am going to go check that i am getting power again to the tcc wire at the tranny is getting power, terminal k and if i ground it at J that it does not work.

My scanner shows three things now:
Driver quad module 27
Torque convertor stuck off
and it show my gear selector to be in third when its in fourth.
But again i can ground both solenoids and it shifts to fourth.

Thanks so much, 3 months ago i started on this swap, i gave up till this weekend bc i seemed at a dead end. Howell says its the tranny and the tranny shop say its the computer. I am also going to by a service manual to help figure out where my electrical problem is. This is the first help i have found online, Thank you.

[slow67]

Here is a file comparing '94 up 4L80es with 4L60es.

I'm pretty sure factory 91-93 4l80es had different wiring harnesses.

[kkustomz]

Anyother help? I pulled the pan and the tcc solenoid shows to work, i checked the wires to and from the ecm. Does the pressure switch justify what gear the ecm believes its in? Anyway to test a pressure manifold?
What do i look for on the quad driver module code?

[joecar]

Have you considered these things:

- that the 4L80E 2-3 shift solenoid sequence for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th is Off, Off, ON, ON
(which is different than the 4L60E sequence of ON, ON, Off, Off.

- that the 4L60E TCC PWM signal will spike high at various times while the 4L60E TCC signal is off.

[kkustomz]

For the first week it did shift in all gears including 4th, but has never had a tcc apply. I understand the ecm can kill 4th if the tcc does not apply, but i have swited ecms and still no change. Could my prom have a problem?

[slow67]

If your only showing D3 when the shifter is in D4, that is why the PCM isn't commanding 4th. It knows that you can only get 4th oil in D4. You may either have a low pressure issue (not enough pressure to trigger the Manifold Pressure Switch) or it may be a bad Manifold Pressure switch. What does the scanner say in all of the gears?

[joecar]

Good point, I had missed that.

Also, what is this DTC:

...

My scanner shows three things now:
Driver quad module 27
Torque convertor stuck off
and it show my gear selector to be in third when its in fourth.
But again i can ground both solenoids and it shifts to fourth.
...

[kkustomz]

Ok, i got 4th gear back after changing the pressure control module. I aslo updated the wiring harness inside and out of the case, which should have been done when it was rebuilt. I still have the driver quad module code and tcc does not lock. The manual shows it must not be getting correct voltage?

My #1 questions is : what is the driver quad module?

[joecar]

Inside the ECM there are output driver chips, each one contains 4 output driver transistors... they come in fours, so "quad module"...

Each driver transistor is able to either source or sink a large current... if the ECM detects an open-circuit or short-circuit at any driver transistor output, it sets a code like you see.

Check the TCC circuit:
- Is it open...?
- Is it shorted (to ground or power)...?
- can you command the TCC using the scqantool...? If so what are the on and off voltages on both sides of the TCC solenoid...?

How do you have the TCC circuit wired up...?

[kkustomz]

Ok, the truck is a obd1 so i can not to my knowledge turn the solenoid on or off with the snap on scanner. THe tcc solenoid gets 12 volts threw the main tranny harness and should if i understand right be grounded to apply, my tan black wire is going to e10.
Should there be a wire on e11? There is not one there?

ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/pub/gmecm/manuals/16197427/95pcm3.jpg

[kkustomz]

Where does e11 wire go or come from? It shows a brown wire for pmw tcc solenoid control? I dont have one

[joecar]

E10 = 4L60E TCC (on/off) signal
E11 = 4L60E TCC PWM signal

4L60E: both signals are needed to apply the TCC:
the TCC PWM signal is ramped up and the TCC (on/off) signal is switched ON.
NOTE: whenever the TCC (on/off) signal is off, the ECM will still cycle the TCC PWM signal up/down.

4L80E: has only one circuit to apply the TCC: TCC PWM.

From Stop-TCC-unlock-when-coasting: (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13722-Stop-TCC-unlock-when-coasting:)

...

4L80E has this circuit:
- TCC PWM,
To lock TCC, the PCM drives TCC PWM to some high value.

4L60E has these circuits:
- TCC PWM,
- TCC Enable,
To lock TCC, the PCM drives TCC PWM to some high value and drives TCC Enable to ground (i.e. both required).

4L60E is further complicated by the fact that the PCM will spike TCC PWM up/down while TCC Enable is off
(the HMTG book says it parks the TCC PWM solenoid at 90%, see here (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=39479&postcount=5)).

Edit: the TCC Enable solenoid is also just called the TCC solenoid.

:)

So you can't use the 4L60E TCC PWM signal to control the 4L80E TCC PWM circuit...
do this instead:
- use 4L60E TCC (on/off) to directly drive the 4L80E TCC PWM circuit;
- use 4L60E TCC (on/off) to gate 4L60E TCC PWM thru a relay to the 4L80E TCC PWM circuit (see posts #26, #27, #29 below).

[kkustomz]

Okay, if i want to override the ecm to manually lock up the tcc, is there a way? Thanks

[joecar]

Okay, if i want to override the ecm to manually lock up the tcc, is there a way? ThanksYou have to ground the ground side of the 4L80E TCC PWM solenoid (wire a switch from the TCC PWM signal wire to ground).

[kkustomz]

Thank god! I disconnected the e10 wire and hooked it directly to ground and it finally locks the tcc up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! First time ever the tcc worked.

Whatever the problem is it has to be in the ecm not allowing the circut to ground.

Now any ideas? Could there possibly ne a issue with my prom?

[joecar]

Several things are required (from what I can remember, this is an older ECM... what does your manual say...?):
- ECT must be up to temperature,
- VSS must be above some minimum,
- brake switch must be indicate brakes are released,
- gear must be 3rd or 4th.

Maybe the ECM doesn't like that E11 (4L60E TCC PWM) is open... you may have to connect a resistor between E11 and power (i.e. to look like a solenoid).

[kkustomz]

ok, i hooked my test light to a 12volt power source and shoved the test light in e11. I drove the truck down the highway, in 3rd and 4th the test light wood light up when i was going a steady speed. I then knew that the circut was opening a ground circut. And the Driver quad module code went away, but still my tcc wire in e10, i had no tcc work.

I tried the same test on e10 and i can never get a ground circut to open.

I swaped the tan (ground) tcc wire to e11 and drove the truck with nothing in e10. The truck for the first time in the build drove threw all 4 gears with the tcc locking up as need in 4th and i believe in 3rd if you are going the right speed.

Does this make no sence? Any idea why e10 never grounds?

Thank you so much for the help, i have been fighting this problem for right at a year. The past few months, i would work on a few days, then park it for a month bc i was so sick of it. Then the cycle would repeat. Now if things go right, a front driveshaft, new tires and it will finally be done!!! Thank you

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3430/forum004f.jpg

[joecar]

...
I swaped the tan (ground) tcc wire to e11 and drove the truck with nothing in e10. The truck for the first time in the build drove threw all 4 gears with the tcc locking up as need in 4th and i believe in 3rd if you are going the right speed.
...


4L60E:
E10 = TCC (on/off) signal - tan/blk
E11 = TCC PWM signal

4L80E:
E10 = nothing
E11 = TCC PWM signal

[joecar]

Glad you got it working...:cheers:

[slow67]

4L60E:
E10 = TCC (on/off) signal - tan/blk
E11 = TCC PWM signal

4L80E:
E10 = nothing
E11 = TCC PWM signal

X2, there is only 1 solenoid for TCC on 80E. 60E has 2.

Also glad you got it working :cheers:

[kkustomz]

Thank you for the help !!!!

[MyM8V8]

This is a great success story which is nice to hear. Well done to the technical guys for the information.:cheers:

[joecar]

To drive a 4L80E transmission from a 4L60E segment:
- discard the 3-2 control solenoid signal.
- drive the 4L80E 2-3 shift solenoid by using a relay to invert the 4L60E 2-3 shift solenoid signal;
- drive the 4L80E TCC PWM solenoid from the 4L60E TCC ON/OFF signal (discard the 4L60E TCC PWM signal), see TCC PWM alternative below;

TCC PWM alternative (see posts #27 and #29 below, thanks GNXClone (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?8656-GNXClone)/Mike):
use the 4L60E TCC ON/OFF signal to drive a relay to gate the 4L60E TCC PWM signal to the 4L80E TCC PWM solenoid:

12216

(see post #29 below)


Note:
The F-car 4L60E segment keeps the TCC locked on closed throttle decel (until vss goes below the unlock curve).
The Truck 4L80E segment (there are no car segments) unlocks the TCC on closed throttle.

[GNXClone]

E10 = 4L60E TCC (on/off) signal
E11 = 4L60E TCC PWM signal

4L60E: both signals are needed to apply the TCC:
the TCC PWM signal is ramped up and the TCC (on/off) signal is switched ON.
NOTE: whenever the TCC (on/off) signal is off, the ECM will still cycle the TCC PWM signal up/down.

4L80E: has only one circuit to apply the TCC:
the TCC PWM signal is ramped up.

So you can't use the 4L60E TCC PWM signal to control the 4L80E TCC PWM circuit... use the 4L60E TCC (on/off) signal instead.

Resurrecting this old thread.

JoeCar, I have an idea for controlling the 4L80e TCC using BOTH TCC signals from the 4L60e controller.

Why not connect the TCC PWM signal line to the 4L80e via an external relay, then use the TCC on/off to control that relay? This way you can still enjoy TCC PWM apply if you desire, instead of the harsh "feels like a gear change" apply.

I plan on using this method to control the 4L80e in my GTO using the OEM 4L60e controller. I'll report back in a few weeks when it's all together and running.

Regards,
-Mike

[Taz]

Hello Mike,

Interesting idea ... have never tried it. A word of caution ... keep a close eye on whatever relay is subject to the PWM signal. Sometimes generic relays won't survive the PWM signal (rapid on/off cycling) for very long and eventually burn out.

Have had customers trying to run E-fans with an E38 ECM (using a Corvette tune) - which uses a fan module from the OEM ... but had used a truck style harness with relays .... which burned out frequently.


Regards,
Taz

[GNXClone]

Hello Mike,
Interesting idea ... have never tried it. A word of caution ... keep a close eye on whatever relay is subject to the PWM signal. Sometimes generic relays won't survive the PWM signal (rapid on/off cycling) for very long and eventually burn out.


Thanks Taz. That did occur to me, which is why I would run the PWM through the relay, meaning, the PWM is not activating the relay, the relay is simply conducting the PWM signal between the controller and the transmission. The on/off signal on the other hand is what energizes the relay.

The PWM signal will only energize the TCC solenoid inside the transmission, but only if the TCC on/off signal is on.

Like this:
12063

[joecar]

Hi Mike,

Yes, that will work, that's a good idea, the 4L60E TCC On/Off signal gates the 4L60E TCC PWM signal thru to the 4L80E's TCC PWM solenoid...
this allows you to adjust the TCC apply feel via the TCC tables :cheers:

the relay is being gated by the TCC On/Off signal (not the TCC PWM signal), so the relay will be ok.

[joecar]

Updated Summary post #26.

[slow67]

Thanks Taz. That did occur to me, which is why I would run the PWM through the relay, meaning, the PWM is not activating the relay, the relay is simply conducting the PWM signal between the controller and the transmission. The on/off signal on the other hand is what energizes the relay.

The PWM signal will only energize the TCC solenoid inside the transmission, but only if the TCC on/off signal is on.

Like this:
12063


It will work fine :cheers:

[GNXClone]

Alternative (see posts #27 and #29 below, thanks GNXClone (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?8656-GNXClone)/Mike):
use the 4L60E TCC ON/OFF signal to drive a relay to gate the 4L60E TCC PWM signal to the 4L80E TCC PWM solenoid:

12216

(see post #29 below)


Note:
The F-car 4L60E segment keeps the TCC locked on closed throttle decel (until vss goes below the unlock curve).
The Truck 4L80E segment (there are no car segments) unlocks the TCC on close throttle.

This TCC relay scheme works great by the way. I have now tested it. The only thing I had to do was add a 100ohm 10W resistor so that when the TCC is disabled, the TCM will still detect a solenoid is present (really a resistor).

[joecar]

Mike, where did you put that resistor...?

[GNXClone]

Mike, where did you put that resistor...?

The resistor is placed between the previously unconnected relay terminal and +12v so that when the TCC enable is off, the TCM will still detect what it thinks is a solenoid. By my calculations, a 2 watt resistor would work, but Radio Shack carries the 100ohm/10watt in stores and its not a bad idea to use a higher rating here.

And I must say, PWM lockup is so much smoother than ON/OFF.

I also attached a photo of the adapter board. This has since been wrapped up in black electrical tape and looks like it's part of the harness. There's the Shift Solenoid B inverter relay, the TCC relay, the "fake" 3-2 shift solenoid resistor and the "fake" TCC PWM solenoid resistor for when TCC enable is off.

[joecar]

Cool :cheers: thanks for the pic.