smoothing spark table

[smslyguy]

i have many peaks in my spark table tune and have tried to smooth it out, but i develop a lot of spark knock then and have to start back at the begining. here is a copy of my tune. The car runs great as is. I really don't want to decrease the spark table on the lower end,but if thats what it takes.

[WeathermanShawn]

I manually smooth.

You have a good point about not smoothing to the point of artificially raising or lowering a spark value, but for me it makes it easier to conceptualize and log when I have it 'smoothed' to some degree.

I prefer the 'distributor-like' Spark Advance curves advocated by member SSpdDmon. He uses the same value of spark after .60 g/cyl. Again, just easier for me to alleviate KR when I only have one spark value to worry about.

[DrkPhx]

Post a log. That's crazy looking. How did you arrive at those values? Is this for the car in your sig which looks like a bolt on car? If so, you really shouldn't have to alter the spark tables that much, unless you have other issues causing the knock.

[joecar]

If you're having knock, see if you can find the reason for it...
- check to see if you're getting oil sucked into the intake manifold (via PCV),
- change spark plugs (how do they look...? pics...?),
- check fuel pressure at rail,
- check for air leaks,
- has the MAF sensor been altered...?

Do yo have any log files...?

Like DrkPhx said, you should be able to run the stock timing tables.

[DrkPhx]

has the MAF sensor been altered...?



ruh-roh


ported and polished m.a.f.

[joecar]

Yes, that's exactly what caught my eye...

[WeathermanShawn]

OP, I went back to a stock MAF prior to my EFILive tuning began. Some people have no trouble with a descreened MAF, but ported and polished might be altering your Airflow velocity through the MAF, and making it difficult to tune.

Since your Spark is determined by your MAF (load)..it might be a vicious cycle.

You should be good to ~450 HP on a stock MAF (maybe more?). That would be my suggestion (stock MAF) if possible. Then you can probably run the Spark Advance you want. That MAF is really sensitive, especially if it has been altered.

Good luck..

[smslyguy]

OP, I went back to a stock MAF prior to my EFILive tuning began. Some people have no trouble with a descreened MAF, but ported and polished might be altering your Airflow velocity through the MAF, and making it difficult to tune.

Since your Spark is determined by your MAF (load)..it might be a vicious cycle.

You should be good to ~450 HP on a stock MAF (maybe more?). That would be my suggestion (stock MAF) if possible. Then you can probably run the Spark Advance you want. That MAF is really sensitive, especially if it has been altered.

Good luck..

Ya, it is a ported and polished m.a.f.. I guess which would stand to reason why i am chasing my tail. very good point.

[smslyguy]

well after finding a used m.a.f. sensor and installing it i am finding that i am running around 13.1-13.5 in p.e. mode. Before is was running around 12.5 afr in p.e. mode. If it were indeed running lean wouldn't the L.T.F.T. be adding fuel in p.e. mode? Why all the sudden changes? Is it cause the new m.a.f. sensor is actually reading acurate unlike the ported and polished one? It never did change the fact about my spark knock though.

[WeathermanShawn]

One would have to see a before and after log. When you are running MAF it calculates the CYLAIR and determines your Spark Advance.

If you have had a wideband reported AFR difference, then obviously you need to recalibrate the MAF. Thats a necessity when changing from any MAF that has been previously calibrated and had an altered airflow (ported and polished). Then you have to determine if the AFR discrepancy is just in PE Mode or also non-PE mode.

You would have to post up your LTFTBENS and see if they are indeed positive prior to entering PE Mode. Theres no way to know without a solid log.

Its possible as you recalibrate the MAF, your spark load will shift to a more favorable load reading..usually less spark. Whether that totally cures your spark knock is hard to say. There are multiple factors. But in my stock tune vs current I have eliminated all KR. I also used the stock MAF. It just takes time to find the right amount of spark for both part-throttle and WOT. A lot of time there can be a lot of carbon build-up in the cylinders. That effectively lowers your octane rating. It is a more likely cause than a lot of people realize.

You really did not have a choice on the MAF. Chances are you are now reading the correct MAF frequencies. Now you just need to calibrate those frequencies to the AFR you desire.

Good luck..

[smslyguy]

One would have to see a before and after log. When you are running MAF it calculates the CYLAIR and determines your Spark Advance.

If you have had a wideband reported AFR difference, then obviously you need to recalibrate the MAF. Thats a necessity when changing from any MAF that has been previously calibrated and had an altered airflow (ported and polished). Then you have to determine if the AFR discrepancy is just in PE Mode or also non-PE mode.

You would have to post up your LTFTBENS and see if they are indeed positive prior to entering PE Mode. Theres no way to know without a solid log.

Its possible as you recalibrate the MAF, your spark load will shift to a more favorable load reading..usually less spark. Whether that totally cures your spark knock is hard to say. There are multiple factors. But in my stock tune vs current I have eliminated all KR. I also used the stock MAF. It just takes time to find the right amount of spark for both part-throttle and WOT. A lot of time there can be a lot of carbon build-up in the cylinders. That effectively lowers your octane rating. It is a more likely cause than a lot of people realize.

You really did not have a choice on the MAF. Chances are you are now reading the correct MAF frequencies. Now you just need to calibrate those frequencies to the AFR you desire.

Good luck..

i bought this m.a.f. sensor from a junk yard that was off of a truck and supposedly they are the exact one for the ls1. Now if i say did have to recalibrate this m.a.f. sensor how would one go about it. BUt if it is infact just like the stock m.a.f. sensor it shouldn't need calibrating? correct?

As far as carbon build up, not the case at all here i have been on this knock retard . now for a couple yrs, and have pretty much thrown out any mechanical erorr that could occur, but one never knows.

[smslyguy]

One would have to see a before and after log. When you are running MAF it calculates the CYLAIR and determines your Spark Advance.

If you have had a wideband reported AFR difference, then obviously you need to recalibrate the MAF. Thats a necessity when changing from any MAF that has been previously calibrated and had an altered airflow (ported and polished). Then you have to determine if the AFR discrepancy is just in PE Mode or also non-PE mode.

You would have to post up your LTFTBENS and see if they are indeed positive prior to entering PE Mode. Theres no way to know without a solid log.

Its possible as you recalibrate the MAF, your spark load will shift to a more favorable load reading..usually less spark. Whether that totally cures your spark knock is hard to say. There are multiple factors. But in my stock tune vs current I have eliminated all KR. I also used the stock MAF. It just takes time to find the right amount of spark for both part-throttle and WOT. A lot of time there can be a lot of carbon build-up in the cylinders. That effectively lowers your octane rating. It is a more likely cause than a lot of people realize.

You really did not have a choice on the MAF. Chances are you are now reading the correct MAF frequencies. Now you just need to calibrate those frequencies to the AFR you desire.

Good luck..

i bought this m.a.f. sensor from a junk yard that was off of a truck and supposedly they are the exact one for the ls1. Now if i say did have to recalibrate this m.a.f. sensor how would one go about it. BUt if it is infact just like the stock m.a.f. sensor it shouldn't need calibrating? correct?

As far as carbon build up, not the case at all here i have been on this knock retard . now for a couple yrs, and have pretty much thrown out any mechanical erorr that could occur, but one never knows.

All of my a.f.r. are taking from a w.b. with it's own gauge so the logs i do have for you won't have the w.b. on efi. Take a look at the logs. I will also post my tune as well.

[smslyguy]

i bought this m.a.f. sensor from a junk yard that was off of a truck and supposedly they are the exact one for the ls1. Now if i say did have to recalibrate this m.a.f. sensor how would one go about it. BUt if it is infact just like the stock m.a.f. sensor it shouldn't need calibrating? correct?

As far as carbon build up, not the case at all here i have been on this knock retard . now for a couple yrs, and have pretty much thrown out any mechanical erorr that could occur, but one never knows.

here is a copy of my tune, that i have pulled my degrees of timming out of all accross the high end table.

[smslyguy]

a quick question about retarding your timming tables. If you back off your timming tables in any catagory is it safe to say you would have to adjust your v.e. tables in the same catagory? Or is that only if the l.t.f.t. are off? I thought they kinda go hand in hand???

[WeathermanShawn]

When I say recalibrate..specifically in how your MAF airflow (hz) vs g/s determines the amount of fueling (LTFTBENS) and WOT AFR.

Adding headers and especially a lid, 99% of tuning enthusiasts usually notice a 10-12% change in Trims (usually positive). There are numerous articles on this effect. But basically on a MAF-enabled vehicle in closed-loop, a significant portion or your airflow and resultant fueling will depend on your MAF.

If your Commanded AFR and actual AFR do not match, adjusting the MAF Freq (hz) and airflow (g/s) is really the only logical choice.

Looking briefly at your logs, it looks like your Fuel Trims are fairly high (negative). I would look at getting those closer to -1 to -2%.

As far as the KR..it is one of the more difficult portions of a tune to perfect. You always have to ask yourself..is it real KR or false. In your case I see a lot of 'burst' knock. Personally I 'zero' out my B6212 Table.

In your case, your MAF Calibration Table B5001 is definitely not stock. It looks like it has been 'maxed' out. So, that may explain the highly negative fuel trims. I think once you get that Table squared away, your spark table can be tweaked to a smoother and more logical 'flow'.

Hope that helps..

[WeathermanShawn]

a quick question about retarding your timming tables. If you back off your timming tables in any catagory is it safe to say you would have to adjust your v.e. tables in the same catagory? Or is that only if the l.t.f.t. are off? I thought they kinda go hand in hand???

Short answer is yes. But it is a little more complicated than that. But if your a staying MAF enabled, you will find your Trims will respond to a MAF adjustment at a 1:1 ratio. From there, there are techniques to adjust your VE Table. But, for now I would work on MAF and spark. Otherwise you will have your hands full with a lot of tuning challenges at once.

[smslyguy]

When I say recalibrate..specifically in how your MAF airflow (hz) vs g/s determines the amount of fueling (LTFTBENS) and WOT AFR.

Adding headers and especially a lid, 99% of tuning enthusiasts usually notice a 10-12% change in Trims (usually positive). There are numerous articles on this effect. But basically on a MAF-enabled vehicle in closed-loop, a significant portion or your airflow and resultant fueling will depend on your MAF.

If your Commanded AFR and actual AFR do not match, adjusting the MAF Freq (hz) and airflow (g/s) is really the only logical choice.

Looking briefly at your logs, it looks like your Fuel Trims are fairly high (negative). I would look at getting those closer to -1 to -2%.

As far as the KR..it is one of the more difficult portions of a tune to perfect. You always have to ask yourself..is it real KR or false. In your case I see a lot of 'burst' knock. Personally I 'zero' out my B6212 Table.

In your case, your MAF Calibration Table B5001 is definitely not stock. It looks like it has been 'maxed' out. So, that may explain the highly negative fuel trims. I think once you get that Table squared away, your spark table can be tweaked to a smoother and more logical 'flow'.

Hope that helps..

thanks for the info, as far as adjusting the m.a.f freq how would you go about doing that? what pids do you need to log? and then once you log those pids what do you add or subtract from?

[WeathermanShawn]

If you are interested, several of us put together a basic tuning tutorial that explains an alternative way of tuning VE, MAF, and Trims.

You may find the MAF Calibration portion (pages 6-7) of some help...http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE Tuning Tutorial.pdf (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf).

Note, there are many different ways of tuning your car. But, having done this now over a year if you are interested in staying MAF, closed-loop..you might find some of this helpful.

Let us know if you need further help.

[smslyguy]

Short answer is yes. But it is a little more complicated than that. But if your a staying MAF enabled, you will find your Trims will respond to a MAF adjustment at a 1:1 ratio. From there, there are techniques to adjust your VE Table. But, for now I would work on MAF and spark. Otherwise you will have your hands full with a lot of tuning challenges at once.

You were right about the burst knock i zero that out and have no spark knock now. i recalibrating the m.a.f sensor readings and here is a log. I noticed that now my l.t.f.t are way negitive. btw what is "burst spark knock" and what is it used for? should this be set back to the way it was from the factory settings? or is it alright to have it zero out?

[smslyguy]

Short answer is yes. But it is a little more complicated than that. But if your a staying MAF enabled, you will find your Trims will respond to a MAF adjustment at a 1:1 ratio. From there, there are techniques to adjust your VE Table. But, for now I would work on MAF and spark. Otherwise you will have your hands full with a lot of tuning challenges at once.

on the speed density tune i can't seem to find calc.L.T.F.TBEN and calc.L.T.F.T anywhere? Is it cause i need to update my version?

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes your MAF LTFTs are quite negative. You should have the CALC. LTFTBENS in your calc_pids.txt file. It not here is mine. Do you know how to input the calc_pids.txt file.into your computer?

A very quick way to 'fix' your MAF is to lower all the g/s units by about 10%. I.E., almost all your values are too high. Your PCM is pulling full because you have 'overestimated' tour airflow. As a favor I did the LTFTBENS for you..and you can see the difference (tune posted). Thats your tune..with MAF values adjusted. I did not touch your WOT MAF values.

Burst knock is just a PCM anticipatory pullback of timing when it senses a rapid rush of cylinder air. Is it safe to zero it out? If you tune fueling and spark properly, there is really no need to have the PCM arbitrarily pull timing. Real KR will pull it anyway. I find it counterproductive to good tuning and don't need it enabled.

Just remember I did not adjust your MAF frequencies in PE Mode. Without a wideband reading..I would just be guessing. But you might want to lower the entire MAF Table by ~8-10% from your original values..

[smslyguy]

Yes your MAF LTFTs are quite negative. You should have the CALC. LTFTBENS in your calc_pids.txt file. It not here is mine. Do you know how to input the calc_pids.txt file.into your computer?

A very quick way to 'fix' your MAF is to lower all the g/s units by about 10%. I.E., almost all your values are too high. Your PCM is pulling full because you have 'overestimated' tour airflow. As a favor I did the LTFTBENS for you..and you can see the difference (tune posted). Thats your tune..with MAF values adjusted. I did not touch your WOT MAF values.

Burst knock is just a PCM anticipatory pullback of timing when it senses a rapid rush of cylinder air. Is it safe to zero it out? If you tune fueling and spark properly, there is really no need to have the PCM arbitrarily pull timing. Real KR will pull it anyway. I find it counterproductive to good tuning and don't need it enabled.

Just remember I did not adjust your MAF frequencies in PE Mode. Without a wideband reading..I would just be guessing. But you might want to lower the entire MAF Table by ~8-10% from your original values..

ok thanks for the info and adjusting my tune you have been a big help. as far as downloading the calc to my computer, do i download it and add it my efi files?

[smslyguy]

[QUOTE=WeathermanShawn;117818]OP, I went back to a stock MAF prior to my EFILive tuning began. Some people have no trouble with a descreened MAF, but ported and polished might be altering your Airflow velocity through the MAF, and making it difficult to tune.

Since your Spark is determined by your MAF (load)..it might be a vicious cycle.

You should be good to ~450 HP on a stock MAF (maybe more?). That would be my suggestion (stock MAF) if possible. Then you can probably run the Spark Advance you want. That MAF is really sensitive, especially if it has been altered.
The spark knock that i was having was in indeed burst knock. My only question is i am having 8 degrees of burst knock is this anything to worry about , i did set b6210 to 0 all accross the board. Oviously i guess that my m.a.f. reading are off to be having burst knock, correct? I went back to my original tune that i had, now that i know it was burst knock and not actual knock. The car runs great but i still have burst knock. here is a copy of my new tune, the fuel trims are within reason, but when entering into p.e mode it is lean around 13.6-14. here is a run as well.

[WeathermanShawn]

You put the calc_pid.txt file into 'My Documents\EFILive\7.5\User Configuration. Just enter save as..it should go in there. The LTFTBEN Pid can be found under 'tuning' if you use the calc_pid.txt file I previously attached.

As far as your Burst knock, you need to adjust Table B6212 to all zero. If you only just B6210 it will not work. B6212 controls the amount of Burst Knock Retard. (See attachments).

As far as your PE fueling..as long as you are 100% convinced your wideband is accurate, then you need to look at the percentage difference between Commanded AFR and Actual AFR. That is commonly known as a BEN. You need to adjust the appropriate MAF frequencies to reflect the correct airflow and resulting AFR. That topic is widely covered in this forum..it is similar to LTFTBENS, but it is known as an AFRBEN.

In my experience if your LTFTBENS are close to zero, the remainder of your MAF Calibration Table slope remains in the same proportion. So I would be surprised to see your MAF Calibration curve deviates that much during PE.

Probably best to attach a log that shows your wideband at stoich (closed-loop) and also PE. List ever mod you have on the car. That way it will be easier to see what is occurring.

[smslyguy]

You put the calc_pid.txt file into 'My Documents\EFILive\7.5\User Configuration. Just enter save as..it should go in there. The LTFTBEN Pid can be found under 'tuning' if you use the calc_pid.txt file I previously attached.

As far as your Burst knock, you need to adjust Table B6212 to all zero. If you only just B6210 it will not work. B6212 controls the amount of Burst Knock Retard. (See attachments).

As far as your PE fueling..as long as you are 100% convinced your wideband is accurate, then you need to look at the percentage difference between Commanded AFR and Actual AFR. That is commonly known as a BEN. You need to adjust the appropriate MAF frequencies to reflect the correct airflow and resulting AFR. That topic is widely covered in this forum..it is similar to LTFTBENS, but it is known as an AFRBEN.

In my experience if your LTFTBENS are close to zero, the remainder of your MAF Calibration Table slope remains in the same proportion. So I would be surprised to see your MAF Calibration curve deviates that much during PE.

Probably best to attach a log that shows your wideband at stoich (closed-loop) and also PE. List ever mod you have on the car. That way it will be easier to see what is occurring.

I did as you said with adding the calc pids into the efi7.5/user configerations and copied your file there, but i can't seem to find it in the scan pids?? Is it supposed to be under the "tune" catagory? Is it maybe listed at something else other than l.t.f.t. bens??

[joecar]

smslyguy,

Did you find the pids...?

You may have to do this:
- go File->Enter VIN and enter your VIN,
- go File->Select Controller and select your PCM,
- on the pids tab, unselect Supported,
- connect to vehicle and do Info->Validate Pids.

[smslyguy]

smslyguy,

Did you find the pids...?

You may have to do this:
- go File->Enter VIN and enter your VIN,
- go File->Select Controller and select your PCM,
- on the pids tab, unselect Supported,
- connect to vehicle and do Info->Validate Pids.

no luck joecar, I have done like you were saying i validated the pids while hooked up to my car as well. I am not a beginner when it comes to computers but i am no expert either and it just doesn't show up. I am using build 7.5.6 build 101. Don't know if that has anything to do with it?? The calc pids are installed in my doc/efilive/ user configerations file, but it just isn't recognizing it or something?

[WeathermanShawn]

When I run your latest log they were there..under Tuning. You just have to 'click' them to make them visible...

..http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=118852&postcount=12..

Make sure the box 'Supported' is not clicked. Then you should be able to find it..

[smslyguy]

When I run your latest log they were there..under Tuning. You just have to 'click' them to make them visible...

..http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=118852&postcount=12..

Make sure the box 'Supported' is not clicked. Then you should be able to find it..

I believe that They are only showing up on your computer cause it is running your scan program not mine, i clicked on this link and it was not on there, nor is it on my scan program. I don't mean to be bothering you with all this, but it just doesn't show up on my pids. Has anyone else had this same problem?

[joecar]

smslyguy,

Take the calc_pids.txt file from post #21 and copy it to this folder:
My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration.

If you're previous calc_pids.txt file in that directory already had calc pids, then save the file somewhere before copying over it.

The start the scantool, goto the PIDs tab, click on the "Parameter" column heading (this sorts alphabetically on this column), look down this column for CALC.LTFTBEN and CALC.VE_Table.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, you may want to update your software to the latest:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13368

Do you have FllashScan V1 or V2...?
If you have V1 then you only need software V7.5.6.110.
If you have V2 then you need both V7.5.6.110 and V8.1.2.90.

[smslyguy]

smslyguy,

Take the calc_pids.txt file from post #21 and copy it to this folder:
My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration.

If you're previous calc_pids.txt file in that directory already had calc pids, then save the file somewhere before copying over it.

The start the scantool, goto the PIDs tab, click on the "Parameter" column heading (this sorts alphabetically on this column), look down this column for CALC.LTFTBEN and CALC.VE_Table.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, you may want to update your software to the latest:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13368

Do you have FllashScan V1 or V2...?
If you have V1 then you only need software V7.5.6.110.
If you have V2 then you need both V7.5.6.110 and V8.1.2.90.

I have done as you said and it isn't recongizing it. Can you send me that link or sticky again. Maybe it is cause of the format it is in don't know. But it is installed in the user configurations file, but it is not recognizing it.

I did upgrade to the newest build as well. I have a v1

[joecar]

Save the attached calc_pids.txt as My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt

Then browse to that folder and open calc_pids.txt with Notepad and make sure it contains 3 calc pids; close Notepad.

Then start the scantool, goto PIDs tab, click on the column heading of the last column (sorts alphabetically), scroll down til you see CALC.LTFTBEN and CALC.VE_Table...

post a screenshot of the PIDs tab.