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DPS
March 27th, 2010, 03:30 AM
First off, I'd like to thank Shawn and the supporting cast for putting together a nice tutorial. I've been reading and following along while trying to set up this method of tuning on a 2004 Z06.

Well, today is the day. The car is warmed up and on the dyno. I connect everything and my WBO2 BEN Multiplier isn't working. It doesn't like my
CALC.AFR.Dyno PID.

I'm using the WBO2 from the dyno. Supposedly it's made by Autronic. There has been a 0 to 5V drop spliced into it for datalogging purposes. I made a rookie attempt at creating a Calc PID for it. I would prefer to run a serial cable from the WBO2 to the V2 but I don't know if it's supported.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? Go easy on me! :grin:


-Brad

DPS
March 27th, 2010, 07:42 AM
After further review I did find a problem with the CALC.AFR.Dyno PID. That has been rectified and the previously attached calc_pids file has been updated.

However, the CALC.AFR.BEN PID still doesn't like it. :wallbash:

Here is what it's telling me under "More Info"-

Expression:
factor = {GM.AFR}/{CALC.AFR.Dyno}
is NOT valid because:
Unknown parameter {CALC.AFR.Dyno}, at position 25.

PID value cannot be determined because
the following error would occur:
Expression not valid: Unknown parameter {CALC.AFR.Dyno}, at position 25.



I have connected to the vehicle and validated the PIDs with the same results. I feel like I'm really close. I'm itching to try this out!

-Brad

DPS
March 27th, 2010, 08:36 AM
It appears that the BEN Wideband Multiplier that I've been fooling around with isn't really necessary for this tuning method. I was just trying to mimmick Shawn's PID list (the screenshot) in the tutorial.

Am I right in assuming that the WBO2 feedback is merely for reference?

-Brad

P.S. Perhaps I should rename this thread "Brad Thinking Out Loud"
:lookaround:

WeathermanShawn
March 27th, 2010, 08:53 AM
Hey Brad:

No the CALC.BEN1 is not necessary to compute the CALC.VE_Table. It is primarily selected as a PID to help you when you get to the non-stoich part of the Tune (PE and WOT). There the BEN can help you..remember PE Mode and WOT require a wideband to accurately tune. There are no LTFTBENS to compute in PE Mode..(it will use the last FTC for its LTFTBEN).

If you trust your narrowbands you can do the stoich portion of the VE Table. You just need to have every factor that is in the CALC.VE Table equation being logged.

Sorry, its hard to document every tuning challenge. Hope you got it figured out now, and can go do some CALC.VE Table logging!!!:cheers:

DPS
March 27th, 2010, 09:13 AM
Thanks Shawn.

I will be doing the PE/WOT tuning as well utilizing a WBO2. I suppose getting that BEN working is a must. Do you have any thoughts as to why I'm having problems with it?

-Brad

WeathermanShawn
March 27th, 2010, 09:28 AM
Brad:

The AFRBEN is not mandatory. Just depends on how good you are with math in your head. 1% of 12.7 is .127 off Commanded AFR..4% is .508 off.

I use the prepackaged Calculated PID for the LS1 (EXT.WO2AFR1/GM AFR). Note this may not be as accurate as using the EQ, and Mr. Prick's AFRBEN method.

But, to answer your question. You don't really need the BEN, but you need to know the percent that actual AFR vs Commanded is. I guess that is the technical definition of a BEN. A lot of times, I just do it in my head..and adjust the corresponding MAF Freq. accordingly.

Hope that all makes sense. Let us know how it goes, or if you have further questions.

joecar
March 27th, 2010, 12:43 PM
Hi Brad,

Try the attached calc_pids.txt.

A pid name has the form: originator.name.units

where:
originator is SAE, GM, CALC,
name is the pid's short name,
units it the pids units.

So I replaced the second . with _ and it seems to work (I also deleted AFR-ext units as you can just use AFR units).

Edit: instead of using the attached calc_pids.txt, follow the link in the next post and use that one.

joecar
March 27th, 2010, 12:49 PM
We also have new VE equations: showpost.php?p=117351&postcount=131 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=117351&postcount=131)

DPS
March 27th, 2010, 12:54 PM
Joecar....you rock. I managed to get things working to the point where I was ready to do some logging. Excitement building........then my dyno controller crapped out on me. I guess it wasn't meant to happen today.

Thanks again for all the help guys. This forum is great!

-Brad

joecar
March 27th, 2010, 01:12 PM
Hey Brad, take your time, we'll still be here...

make sure your dyno AFR pid works right (in CL it should be right on the commanded AFR).

TAQuickness
March 29th, 2010, 09:55 PM
Is the dyno's WB programable? Would be a good idea for your to force a value thru the WB and make sure it reads correctly on the scan tool. There is a good chance for ground offsets that will skew your data. Make sure the WB works and is accurate before you attemp PE/WOT tuning.

joecar
March 30th, 2010, 04:35 AM
Brad,

TAQuickness has a good point.

Also: does your dyno support emitting the AFR/Lambda via RS232 serial interface...?

Which dyno do you have...?

DPS
March 31st, 2010, 12:44 AM
It's a Dyno Dynamics 450DS. It has the Autronic (relabeled as Dyno Dynamics) HSAFR unit. It does have a serial output that currently has the 0 to 5V analog signal tied into it.

If it's helpful at all, this used to be Howard's dyno @ Redline Motorsports and he created the analog drop.

Ideally it would be nice to split the RS232 and have one go to the dyno and one to the V2. Is this possible? Even if it couldn't be split, I'd be more than happy to move the serial cable back and forth. :) I'm guessing Howard would have done that if it were possible.

-Brad

joecar
March 31st, 2010, 04:28 AM
Is it able to write the AFR or Lambda to the RS232 serial port (i.e. in digital/text form)...?

If it can, then maybe FlashScan V2 can be made to read it using a serial cable (i.e. without using analog voltages).

Do you have a manual for the dyno, see if it allows you to configure/emit the AFR or Lambda via the serial port.

DPS
March 31st, 2010, 04:54 AM
It must have the ability since that is how AFR is reported to the dyno. It just so happens that I asked Dyno Dynamics for the HSAFR2 documentation the other day. I haven't seen it yet though.

I'll look into it some more. This would be sweet!

DPS
March 31st, 2010, 05:35 AM
"It is not serial data capable" were the words from the horses mouth. I must not fully understand the RS232 cable from the WBO2 to the dyno then. Must be just because it uses a serial cable it doesn't mean it's carrying serial data? I'll look at it closer this evening.

If you had to choose between the 0 to 5V analog method for $0 or the serial method for much more than $0, which way would you go? I find it silly to need 2 dedicated WBO2s in this situation. The dyno WBO2 becomes almost obselete unless a customer wants AFR on their printout.

-Brad

weltmeistercz
April 13th, 2010, 01:00 AM
Here's the Autronic manual :

http://www.mrm-racing.se/bag/analyzer.pdf

This should help.

Chris

DPS
April 18th, 2010, 02:31 AM
Thanks Chris. I was directed to that same location by someone on another forum. I think I have it working well enough now that I feel I have decent data for WOT/PE tuning. Which leads me to my next question..... but first, a little background.

A friend was nice enough to give me his '04 ZO6 to help me get my head around the capabilities of this sofware as well as the dyno I recently purchased.

The extent of the mods are....... a 180 thermostat :rockon:

We all now how rich these cars run from the factory. I thought a nice beginners step would be to target 12.7 AFR throughout PE.

It isn't obvious to me how to do this without performing "PE Rape" (B3618). I considered doing AutoVE (OLSD) but the car has the IAT tied in with the MAF and I don't want to screw with it.

I've also considered adjusting the MAF Freq using a Wideband BEN. The BEN is defined as WBO2 AFR / GMAFR. It seems to me that if the Commanded AFR matches my WBO2 it shouldn't really change anything in the MAF table.

Am I making this harder than it needs to be? This whole excercise was intended for me to gain an understanding on the right way to do it and how it all works. I attended EFI101 and Advanced back in '04 so it's been a long time. :help2:

-Brad

mr.prick
April 18th, 2010, 03:06 AM
You don't need to unplug the MAF for SD if failed properly. ;)

WeathermanShawn
April 18th, 2010, 04:20 AM
Brad, there are numerous options available to tune a car.

One of the reasons I embarked on the 'CALC. VE Table' method of tuning was to make things easier. For those tuners/enthusiasts that intend to stay closed-loop and choose to work with the factory MAF, it is designed to tune the MAF, VE Table, and Trims, simultaneously and accurately. ...usually in the course of 1-3 solid tuning runs.

If one decides that a need exists to command a different AFR at various RPMS and MAPS, then closed-loop is not the way to go. Then AUTOVE and open-loop is the way to go. As Mr. Prick said, you can fail the MAF easily through the tuning software. No need to unplug, etc.

As far as utilizing the PE Table (commanding AFR) that is a perfectly appropriate method. Ordinarily the ability to match your Commanded AFR vs Actual AFR (wideband) is through manipulating B5001 to match frequencies vs actual airflow (g/s). If you stay closed-loop, my personal preference is of course found in the CALC.VE Tutorial.

If you decide to go that route, myself or Joecar (along with others) can help. Joecar has had good success on a nearly stock platform. Several of us have had success on H/C vehicles.

Let us know. Good luck either way..

joecar
April 18th, 2010, 08:57 AM
Brad,

The basic concepts are like this:
- force airmass to come from one and only one of VE or MAF;
- from airmass the PCM determines fuelmass (from either of OL AFR, PE, CL),
- force OL in order to prevent the PCM doing CL/LTFT/STFT corrections,
- the BEN (wideband AFR / commanded AFR) is now the correction multiplier for whichever of VE or MAF is being used.
- now repeat for the other airmass source.

So, if the airmass sources have been corrected (by multiplying by BEN), then setting the target PE AFR is not raping it, it's the appropriate place to set it.


Even on a stock LS1 car, you can get very good results by doing the AutoVE tutorial...
on my WS6 with no mods (only 180┬░TS, LT headers, lid; stock catback) after correcting VE table and leaving it in OLSD, engine had very good/"instant" throttle response and my SOTP detected big improvement, engine seemed to run free-er and fuel mileage improved by a few mpg [the LT headers made it sound gooood, one quick blip in neutral changed the minds of several impromptu signal-to-signal rice racers]...

Some people have great success (after AutoVE) by staying in OLSD, while others do not, so they run in either CLSD or do AutoMAF and run CLMAF with good success.

However Auto VE tutorial requires effort, going step-by-step, double-checking/sanity-checking each step, and paying attention to wideband sanity (I have had the sensor itself fail on one occasion which I noticed, and when I looked at the BEN's it would have produced weird results had I not been paying attention)... Auto VE and Auto MAF take some effort and require some experience to ensure that the process is functioning correctly.


Now, WeathermanShawn's tutorial takes a shortcut based on these points:
- the VE table can be calculated based on MAF, MAP, RPM and DYNAIRTMP (blend of ECT and IAT to account for heat soak),
- the MAF and/or VE provide the airmass with which the PCM calculates the fuelmass which it then trims via LTFT's,
- so the LTFT's can be used to correct the calculated VE table,
- the LTFT's can also used to correct the actual MAF table.

Weatherman's tutorial can be applied with as little as one log, is very easy/simple to apply (you don't have to disable the other source of airmass, you don't have to disable CL and SOL), and seems to get good results.

:)

DPS
April 18th, 2010, 09:36 AM
Thanks fellas! The lightbulb went on!

WeathermanShawn
April 18th, 2010, 09:48 AM
Thanks Joe, thats a good synopsis.

Brad, let us know how it goes. Lately there have been more tuning challenges just with the use of a wideband (calibration, etc). I think as long as you keep all your sensors nice and accurate, tuning is a whole lot more fun.

Since going serial connection on the wideband..I can't imagine doing it any other way. Just read up on Mr. Pricks threads on fine-tuning the wideband to get it to properly match stoich. (I think I have that right). And if you stay closed-loop, fresh O2 sensors help..

Good luck..