Wideband Controller Poll

[swingtan]

There are a couple of threads on who uses what, but none that make it easy to see just how many use what. So vote for the WB controller you use and help those that are wanting to get one decided....

Simon.

[SirNemesis]

TechEdge 2J1 for me, with the LA1 display.

[ScarabEpic22]

Innovate LC1 with serial connection to V2, soon to add Innovate DB blue guage for real time monitoring.

[joecar]

LC-1

Used with both V1 and V2 using analog connection.

Bench tested with V2 using serial connection... to be installed soon with heads/cam/headers/catback (but I have to do suspension first).

[5.7ute]

Innovate LM-1 with serial connection for me.

[JAY4SPEED]

I have a Innovate LM1 (serial) for tuning customer's cars and I have the PLX (with serial conversion) permanently mounted in my truck.

[Tordne]

I have dual LC-1's sitting here to be installed. If I could afford to I would go dual FJO Racing though with the NTK sensors. Just a little pricey for me unfortunately :(

[ChipsByAl]

I have setup several LM1's with the serial connection, its just too easy.
Al

[GAMEOVER]

V2 w/ Innovative Dual Channel LM-2 with TAQ serial connection, Bosch sensor's go bad quick, wish I could use NTK sensor's with LM-2

[mr.prick]

Where did you get the idea for a WBO2 poll? :hihi:

LC-1 and V2 with serial connection FTW. :cucumber:

[DPS]

I'm currently screwing with the analog output of an Autronic unit that came with my dyno. :wallbash:

Guess who ordered the LC-1 and serial cables yesterday? :wavetowel2:

[joecar]

TTT

If you have a wideband please vote... :)

[macca_779]

Where did you get the idea for a WBO2 poll? :hihi:

LC-1 and V2 with serial connection FTW. :cucumber:

I like the idea of the LC1. Nice small controller and all that. But the reliability of them has always held me back. I've got two PLX's at the moment which have never let me down. But when they bite the dust I'll get a Tech Edge. Never heard a bad thing about them.

[Wolfie]

PLX w/gauge and serial conversion - permanent mount.

[JezzaB]

Autronic SM2
Innovate LM-1
Innovate LM-2
Innovate LC-1
PLX SM-AFR
TechEdge 2J1
TechEdge 3H1

I mainly use the TechEdge 3H1. All serially setup.

[mr.prick]

Autronic SM2
Innovate LM-1
Innovate LM-2
PLM SM-AFR
TechEdge 2J1
TechEdge 3H1

I mainly use the TechEdge 3H1. All serially setup.

Do you collect these things? :laugh:

[joecar]

Jezza, impressive collection there mate...:cheers:

[JezzaB]

Opps forgot to add an

Innovate LC-1


Can never have enough data and widebands I say!

And ive got the TE units wired serially into the dyno. Mainline was kind enough to write it in so I could do it. Then I can send it out to the V2 (including dyno power and torque) as well

[mr.prick]

And ive got the TE units wired serially into the dyno. Mainline was kind enough to write it in so I could do it. Then I can send it out to the V2 (including dyno power and torque) as well

"The other guy's" can't do this. http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2408&d=1196302265

[TFZ_Z06]

I have the V2 LC1 Serial. A friend of mine sells them making the price right. :)

[Slowrc]

I am not voting because i don't think it is fair to vote for innovate because I have never tried the others. I have had a lc1 3 plus years of great service and a lm1 that just died on me although going through the manual lead me to a possible cause for the failure. (leaving it pluggrd to the lighter during startup.) Innovate products will get the job done. I have built a serial cable for a lm1 so I'll most likely go that route again.

[swingtan]

This poll is simply to indicate what WB controllers are in use, so there is no issue with direct comparisons. It's just to show people what is used and what is likely to have some sort of local support via this forum.

Simon.

[Slowrc]

I see the way the poll is worded now, so I voted. I use a lm1 with a homemade serial cable. worked great till I got a error 08 the other day, flow chart says the sensor is bad, but new sensors don't help any and the Innovate forum is down!:bad:

LOOKING FOR A NEW WIDEBAND NOW:hihi:

[mr.prick]

IIRC someone here "fixed" an LM-1 by reflashing the Innovate firmware into it. :nixweiss:

[joecar]

...
and the Innovate forum is down!:bad:
...It's been down now for about 2 weeks... :nixweiss:

[MyM8V8]

LC-1s. But they don't last as long as I'd hoped. Just had a replacement sensor delivered.

[Tordne]

I've seen a lot of posts about reliability of the Innovate products. I have two LC-1's sitting here waiting to be installed and I'm sort of thinking twice about it. In my previous car I had a PLX M250 (now retired product) but that was rock solid!

Per previous post I'd go the FJO w/ NTK sensor route if money was no object :)

[eficalibrator]

If you're willing to spend just a little bit more to get actual pro quality tools, the ECM products are all > * on the list here. ECM makes the widebands used by GM, Ford, Chrysler and the EPA for all their testing. I personally use an ECM LambdaPRO with analog output, but I think I'm going to pick up an ECM AFM1500 with the serial output (which is actually cheaper than the LPro) for use with the V2 cable. As an added bonus, they have specially discounted pricing for tuners, with even better discounts for people who have taken my classes. You will NOT find a better wideband than ECM on the planet.

[joecar]

V2 does support serial Lambda from the AFM1500, it's been tested by Howard @ Redline Motorsports.

[ls1vt209]

AEM Uego permanently installed
Tech Edge 2J1 for tuning mates cars and my other bank logging (When I could be bothered getting under the car to put it in).

Both serially connected.

[LinearX]

Per previous post I'd go the FJO w/ NTK sensor route if money was no object :)

I had less than stellar luck with my LC1. As a matter of fact, I cut the cables to the controller the other day so as not to subject anyone else to its worthlessness. :D

I'm thinking about the FJO as well. I see that KWB400x (version 3, I think) is supported, but I've yet to find a dual channel version of that one. Know of some place that sells the latest version of the dual channel kit so I can cringe over the price?

[Tordne]

They don't seem to do a dual channel (single product) anymore. You basically get two of the controllers and daisy chain them (like you would do with the LC-1). I'm actually considering a TechEdge 3H1 dual now, and considering using the Bosch sensors that came with the LC1-s initially.

[LinearX]

They don't seem to do a dual channel (single product) anymore. You basically get two of the controllers and daisy chain them (like you would do with the LC-1). I'm actually considering a TechEdge 3H1 dual now, and considering using the Bosch sensors that came with the LC1-s initially.

Can you daisy chain the serial outputs together and get them both into the V2?

I can never figure out what I need from the TechEdge site. It always confuses the crap out of me. :D I definitely like the idea of dual channel, though.

[Tordne]

I've never come across a dual channel FJO to "play with" but expect you could get both channels logged into V2 via the serial. The TechEdge 3H1(http://wbo2.com/3h1/default.htm) less the gauge which I wouldn't want comes in standard configuration of 3H1 controller, 2 x Bosch 7200 sensors, 2 x 2.6 M cable harness for AU$783. It's not nearly as confusing as working out what FJO stuff you need IMO :)

[LinearX]

I've never come across a dual channel FJO to "play with" but expect you could get both channels logged into V2 via the serial. The TechEdge 3H1(http://wbo2.com/3h1/default.htm) less the gauge which I wouldn't want comes in standard configuration of 3H1 controller, 2 x Bosch 7200 sensors, 2 x 2.6 M cable harness for AU$783. It's not nearly as confusing as working out what FJO stuff you need IMO :)

I think where I get lost is how they refer to the sensors. I'm dumb and accustomed to the Bosch LSU (in some version) or the NTK. I've got a friend that has had a TechEdge for a long, long time and it still works like a champ. I should revisit their stuff.

[joecar]

Can you daisy chain the serial outputs together and get them both into the V2?
...On the LC-1...?

First LC-1:
SERIAL IN = terminator plug.
SERIAL OUT = serial in of second LC-1.

Second LC-1:
SERIAL IN = serial out of first LC-1.
SERIAL OUT = FlashScan V2 RJ12 serial port (using null modem connection).

[Tordne]

I think the FJO product would work similar to the LC-1 scenario above.

[Highlander]

Over 10 LC1s and a few LM1s with serial connections... No issues here... That serial connection is just so awesome it makes the system worthwhile for tuning.

[LinearX]

Can't find an FJO KWB4001 for sale in the entire country. It seems that everyone is out of stock and FJO appears to be back ordered. :bad:

Techedge may be my next option.

[Abdulla]

Innovate LC-1 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/INN-3781/) (Linked)

[Dieselman]

Tech Edge 2J2 using serial connection for me

[L31Sleeper]

I currently have an LC-1 but I'm looking at the MTX-L, I just haven't found anything that
says weather or not it can be connected to my V2 ?? I just e-mailed Innovate support.
It looks like it takes the same serial cable as the LM-2

[joecar]

I currently have an LC-1 but I'm looking at the MTX-L, I just haven't found anything that
says weather or not it can be connected to my V2 ?? I just e-mailed Innovate support.
It looks like it takes the same serial cable as the LM-2Innovate-MTX-wideband (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15880-innovate-MTX-wideband)

[L31Sleeper]

Joe you never cease to amaze me...........are you sure this forum isn't hosted from
INSIDE YOUR BRAIN ??

BUT that thread didn't say for sure that it would work. Everyone seemed to think it would.

[TFZ_Z06]

MTX = EXACTLY the same protocol as the LC1. The only difference is the MTX returns a string "MTX-L" vs "LC-1".
I'm sure EFILIVE will have that done in no time.

[BLU BYU]

If you're willing to spend just a little bit more to get actual pro quality tools, the ECM products are all > * on the list here. ECM makes the widebands used by GM, Ford, Chrysler and the EPA for all their testing. I personally use an ECM LambdaPRO with analog output, but I think I'm going to pick up an ECM AFM1500 with the serial output (which is actually cheaper than the LPro) for use with the V2 cable. As an added bonus, they have specially discounted pricing for tuners, with even better discounts for people who have taken my classes. You will NOT find a better wideband than ECM on the planet.

I can't seem to find the price on the ECM products. How much do these two you mention cost if you don't mind me asking?

[Blacky]

MTX = EXACTLY the same protocol as the LC1. The only difference is the MTX returns a string "MTX-L" vs "LC-1".
I'm sure EFILIVE will have that done in no time.
If that's the only difference, then it should work right now. FlashScan does not retrieve nor look for the "LC-1" string.
Regards
Paul

[GAMEOVER]

I can't seem to find the price on the ECM products. How much do these two you mention cost if you don't mind me asking?

I think The ECM Lambda Pro is about $3500...:D

[BLU BYU]

I think The ECM Lambda Pro is about $3500...:D

:help2: :throw: :thankyou2:

[joecar]

The ECM AFM1500 is cheaper (relatively speaking) and has serial comms output.

[restless@westnet.com.au]

tech edge 2j1

[Soopy]

Tech edge 2j2

[Mr. P.]

If you're willing to spend just a little bit more to get actual pro quality tools, the ECM products are all > * on the list here... You will NOT find a better wideband than ECM on the planet.
I read your recommendation in another post, and it helped me greatly although I did not purchase the ECM AFM1500 (couldn't afford it :().


The ECM AFM1500 is cheaper (relatively speaking) and has serial comms output.
The AFM1500 lists for 1500-bones; if I was an amateur or professional tuner I would definitely buy one.

My 2-cents -

I bought the NGK AFX and *love* it. I was using a PLX and after switching holy cow a night and day difference; I had no idea just how important a properly functioning wideband is to saving your sanity attempting to tune your vehicle. With the NGK the vehicle will now behave like I expect when making tuning changes! With the PLX the truck had lots of little unexplained behaviors (mystery KR, piss-poor economy, minor stumbling & hesitations, etc) and after changing to the NGK and re-doing my VE table wow I am now getting good economy and the tuning changes I am making actually produce results/behavior that makes sense.

When talking about widebands I think the discussion needs to be broken into TWO threads, one for products that use the Bosch sensor, and others that use the NTK sensor. The NTK sensor is FAR more accurate than the Bosch in the rich AFR areas that forced-induction vehicles operate at. In my case with the PLX, it wasn't that the Bosch was "off", it's that the amount of that inaccuracy differed all over the lambda range, at stoich it was off very little but when the PLX was reporting 11.8-AFR the exhaust was actually 12.8 and I believe this has everything to do with the design of the Bosch sensor itself - sure it's a "wideband sensor" but it was just never meant to be accurate at AFRs that rich. My opinion the Bosch sensor (and all the widebands that are built on it) are perfectly fine for naturally-aspirated applications; but when you need to know for damned sure what the AFR is exactly when your are commanding 1.28-EQR then the Bosch just cannot report truly what is happening, and the NTK sensor can.

So when I researched a replacement for the PLX, I considered Greg's suggestions seriously and found that the NGK AFX product uses the NTK sensor and was designed with the help of ECM (makers of the AFM1500). The NGK AFX is affordable ($270), the construction is fantastic, it can be free-air calibrated, the instructions are good, and it also comes with an O2 bung and plug! The only cons are that it is analog output (no serial connection) and the big red display assumes 14.7 stoich so for me running E10 (14.12 stoich) the display is useless. But I highly recommend it, because it produces correct and repeatable results.

Mr. P.

[joecar]

Hi Mr.P,

Yes, lol "relatively speaking"... :angel_innocent:


Thanks for the impressions on the NGK.

Yes, it's probably a good idea to separate out discussions on the O2 sensor and the controller.

You can still display lambda by dividing the AFR pid by the stoich AFR assumed by the controller.

[Highlander]

how does the ECM system compare with the LM2 system?

[joecar]

how does the ECM system compare with the LM2 system?Howard at Redline Motorsports is using this, he is happy with it.

[eficalibrator]

how does the ECM system compare with the LM2 system?
It's not even a comparison IMHO. ECM makes laboratory grade professional equipment that is used by GM, Ford, Chrysler, the EPA, Et. Al... The LM2 is aimed at the mass market of people who read magazines and believe what someone with a journalism background and the need to fill advertising space tells them.

[Jester]

I have an old PLX M300, was l9ooking at the Techedge 2J2, anyone used one and would you recommend it?

[slows10]

It's not even a comparison IMHO. ECM makes laboratory grade professional equipment that is used by GM, Ford, Chrysler, the EPA, Et. Al... The LM2 is aimed at the mass market of people who read magazines and believe what someone with a journalism background and the need to fill advertising space tells them. Unfortunately for me, I believe very little what my 5 month old MTX-L tells me. IMO it and the other innovate widebands are junk. Sorry I spent the money on it. The bosch sensor has a negative history to it. (many,many threads and posts to confirm)as well as my exp with it. And the controller itself is not much better. It would be nice if we could at least upgrade to the better sensor.

[Soopy]

I have an old PLX M300, was l9ooking at the Techedge 2J2, anyone used one and would you recommend it?

Yes and yes.

[Dieselman]

I have an old PLX M300, was l9ooking at the Techedge 2J2, anyone used one and would you recommend it?


Yes and yes.

Another yes from me. The new version is the 2J9 that uses the latest LSU4.9 sensor

[Doc]

Ecm afm 1500

[joecar]

Ecm afm 1500Hey Doc,

Are you using serial comms...?

[Doc]

I use the serial comms on my V2. I ran the analog out to the dyno stack. Works great.

[scottcmb]

I got the new Innovate MXT-L. Had an issue with it at the start with error codes when i first bought it, but had the cable from the unit to the o2 sensor replaced under warranty by the supplier and has been working great ever since with no problems at all!!! great little compact unit!!

Scotty

[Rich Z]

No one is using Zeitronix products for their wideband? Is there a problem with their products? I'm thinking of ordering one, so I sure would like to know...

[pdyoung]

Hey Scotty i'm a newbee and i have a v2 and just ordered a MXT-L. Does a cable come with the MXL that plugs right into the V2 or what do i have to do to join the two?

[scottcmb]

Hey Scotty i'm a newbee and i have a v2 and just ordered a MXT-L. Does a cable come with the MXL that plugs right into the V2 or what do i have to do to join the two?

Hi Ya Pdyoung, you will need make or purchase a seperate serial cable to connect the MTX-L to your V2. Contact "IRA" on this forum he may still be selling the cables that do the trick. He is the one i got mine from. :)

Cheers Scotty

[wells]

Hey everyone, another newbie question:lookaround:......... I am using V2 and was looking at the innovate LC2 for a couple reasons, cost being a factor. It also appears to be a fairly simple setup with the V2 (any arguments?). Also I read in this post that the Bosch WB's Don't last long? Sorry for so many questions/fragments:laugh:...... Just don't want to purchase a WB controller to just to be disappointed. Thank you in advance!

Wells

As a side note, this forum is incredible! I am amazed by the wealth of knowledge compacted in one place, right about the time I think I've wrapped my head around something I realize that I have a long way to go! I always seem to be able to do some reading and find my answer here....

[Highlander]

LC2 will be great, can´t go wrong with innovate... as a matter of fact, for me, they are the best wideband readily available.

[wells]

Awesome! I was planning on just hooking p to tune, I was no going to order with the gauge. With that being said being that it is a single sensor can I just remove one O2 ( say B1S1) for logging or should I weld in a bung?

[Highlander]

B1s2

[wells]

I'm still running cats for now, that would dilute my readings wouldn't it?

[Highlander]

At WOT not much. I've done many tests and at most its .1 @WOT which would make you tune a tad richer... IMO it is not much of a difference to warrant any HP or reading skews. Part throttle it is best to have a reference of it's own sensors.

[HOWQUICK]

reckon the thread could do with some tech...why are you using the controller not just "I like the colour of it."

from http://wiki.efihacks.com/index.php?title=Bosch_LSU_4.9_vs_LSU_4.2


Bosch LSU 4.9 vs LSU 4.2
Jump to: navigation, search
Bosch LSU 4.9 Wide Band O2 Sensor Comparison to the legacy LSU 4.2

A very convincing example of comparison comes right out of the Original Bosch Sensor Data-Sheets.
It is the amount of available Lambda calibration reference points for each sensor.

Bosch LSU 4.9 : a total of 25 data points

0.650, 0.700, 0.750, 0.800, 0.822, 0.850, 0.900, 0.950, 0.970, 0.990, 1.003, 1.010, 1.050, 1.100, 1.132, 1.179, 1.429, 1.701, 1.990, 2.434, 3.413, 5.391, 7.506, 10.119, 30.000

Bosch LSU 4.2 : a total of 10 data points

0.700, 0.800, 0.850, 0.900, 1.009, 1.180, 1.430, 1.700, 2.420, 30.000
Accuracy and Response-Time :

The core of a modern AFR controller is a Bosch Cj125 Sensor Data Pre-Processor and a High Performance Embedded CPU.

Let's address the 2nd item 1st. It's not necessary to have a floating point arithmetic quad core CPU spinning in the GHz range. Floating point would be nice, but it would be shooting down pigeons with canons. For sure, if you got them and it's very very easy, but not necessary.
What's available nowadays as a good cost / performance option are 32-bit RISC Type CPUs at around or below 100 MHz ... i.e. Arm Cortex-3 based from various Chip-Houses. Anything below 32-bit is beyond legacy ... sorry about that :)

Now to the Sensor Control for the LSU 4.x Sensors. The overall control effort is quite complex and the only real solution to it, besides a custom ASIC (Innovate), is the Bosch CJ125 (or CJ135 at 70 % higher cost).
It provides the Ion-Pump Current Processing and outputs a Proportional Analog Voltage of it.
This internal Cj125 Signal Process includes a Fast Analog Closed Loop Control for the Nernst Voltage Measurement to Ion Pump Current Feedback Output and Measurement.
The Sensor Temperature is measured via it's inner resistance Ri and the CJ1x5 Chips provide all controls for it.
An Ri proportional analog voltage is output as a comparison measurement value from an external 300 Ohm (LSU 4.9) or 82.5 Ohm (Lsu 4.2) to the measured Sensor Ri.

Now all the CPU has to do, is to PID control the Heater PWM at a rate of around 100 - 200 Hz ... Faster wouldn't bring much because of the sensors thermal inertia. It's still quite a task in integer arithmetic, but we have 32-bits available for it.
Yes ... and the at least 10-bit Analog to Digital Conversion for all Measured Analog Values, sampled at 600 Hz or more with some Digital Filtering ... what do we have a 72 MHz Arm Cortex CPU for ... it should be busy at no extra cost :)
We are lucky and have all ADC and PWM at a 12-bit luxury resolution ... anything above it will be drowned in noise anyway unless you make a very elaborate and expensive effort in an automotive environment.

The other task is to translate the Ion Pump Current into Lambda or AFR units ... Table Look-Up with linear Interpolation ... a bit more 32 bit integer arithmetic. Here is where the Sensor Calibration Points will reflect Accuracy.
There are now still a few more, the system and sensor diagnostic task, the communications processing, ... and more.

As can be seen, the Heart of the System is the Bosch CJ125 being complemented by balanced 32-bit CPU Performance ... End of Successful Control Strategy :)


We have also found a very nice Comparison of the Bosch LSU 4.9 vs LSU 4.2 Wide Band O2 Sensor at http://www.hevosvoima.com/foorumi/viewtopic.php?f=33&p=3968

and took the liberty and copied the content, rather then providing only this link, to keep this info available in case the link ever fades away :)
And of course a nice "Thank You" to whoever originally wrote this very informative comparison.

So here the story goes :
LSU 4.9 is superior to LSU 4.2.

The major difference between LSU 4.9 and 4.2 is LSU 4.9 uses the reference pumping-current, while LSU 4.2 uses the reference air. What does this mean? Let's read this true story from the auto industries: when Bosch first designed a wideband oxygen sensor, a reference air cell was used to provide a reference of stoic AFR. The technology was to keep the pumping cell balanced with the reference air cell, by pumping the oxygen out of the pumping cell. The pumping current was the indication of the actual AFR in the exhaust gas. The bigger the pumping current, the more the oxygen in the exhaust, and vice versa. Therefore the reference air was vital to the accuracy of the sensor, because it was THE reference. It worked well in the lab, but not so good in the real life. Because the enviroment around the sensor on a car was much worse. The reference air cell was susceptible to be contaminated by the exhaust gas, and / or other surrounding pollutions. Once the reference air was contaminated, the whole characteristics of the sensor were shifted to the low side. It was called "Characteristic Shifted Down", or CSD, in the industries. This was the biggest problem of LSU 4.2 that was used by some early OEM applications. And it caused the big warranty issue to Bosch. To fix this problem, Bosch redesigned the LSU sensor, and came up with LSU 4.9 version. LSU 4.9 sensor completely got rid of the reference air. Instead, it used a reference pumping current which was equivalent to the stoic reference air, but without having any physical air in the cell. So the technology became: the actual pumping current was compared to the reference pumping current to maintain the balance. The actual pumping current was still the indication of the actual AFR, but the reference was a calibrated electrical signal, and stayed same all the time, all the situations.

This is the fundamental difference between the LSU 4.2 and LSU 4.9.

LSU 4.9 gets rid of the reference air, and therefore gets rid of the biggest failure mode. As a result, LSU 4.9 has a long life and can maintain the accuracy throughout the life. Only since then, Bosch LSU sensors have been used widely in the auto industires.

Nowadays, all OEMs who use Bosch O2 sensors are using LSU 4.9. GM, Ford, and Chrysler all use LSU 4.9 now. If you check out the O2 sensors on your recently bought vehicles, cars/SUVs/Pickups, (since 2007 or later), on the exhaust manifolds, and you will find that they are all exclusively LSU 4.9. No more 4.2 sensors can you find on OEM cars.

Most aftermarket wideband controllers are still using LSU 4.2, mainly for low cost reasons. Bosch sells the LSU 4.2 to the aftermarket at a much lower price than LSU 4.9. Plus, many of those companies do not want to or are not able to adapt the new LSU 4.9 sensors. There is a big mis-understanding that LSU 4.9 is only for diesel engines, because it can measure very lean AFRs. That's not true. There is a diesel version of LSU 4.9, called LSU4.9D, mainly because of fuel and temperature difference. But LSU 4.9 has been widely used with the gasonline engines. It is actually the most popular gasoline engine O2 sensor now, not only because it measures wide range of AFR, but also because it has the very good reliability, and high accuracy.

There are a few wideband controller companies in the aftermarket using LSU 4.9 already. But that does not mean all controllers with LSU 4.9 are equal. Even with the same LSU 4.9 sensor, the controller can make a big difference. Some wideband controlers are designed for AFR display only. You can imagine that they may not have good accuracy and fast response rate because they are not designed for those purposes. Those gauges are more for good looking than for engine tuning purposes. For engine controls, the accuracy and reponse rate are the most critical characteristics of a wideband controller. In fact, one way to tell whether a wideband controller is good or not, is to see whether it can be used as a feedback device for the ECU. A feedback device must provide a real-time signal in the fast rate and high accuracy, even under dynamic situations. The requirements for a feedback device are much much more than those for a gauge.

Even with a LSU 4.2, the controller makes a big difference. Bosch sensors are not easy to fail even with a LSU 4.2, if controlled appropriately. Especially, LSU 4.9 is designed for more than 10 year life because it has to, for the vehicle life. It should not fail in short time, like a year. Many OEM cars have been running with LSU 4.9 for years. Why so many aftermarket wideband systems have failed LSU sensors? Because many of them don't have a good heating control strategy. The number 1 failure mode of a LSU sensor is being heated up too fast or too earlier. O2 sensors are made of ceramic materials, which can be damaged by severe thermal shocks, like condensations, liquid residuals, or just high heating power when it's still cold. A very careful heating strategy to detect the dew point and a close-loop sensor temperature control are vital for the life of the sensors. That's why the LSU sensor must be controlled in the context of engine controls. You may say, only those know engine controls can design a good wideband controller.

Furthermore, the accuracy of LSU sensors is highly dependent on the operating temperature of the sensing element. The sensor reading can be very different if the temperature of the sensing element is different. LSU sensors must work at the vicinity of certain temperuatures for the good accuracy.

Bosch CJ125 chip is designed for this task. The heating strategy is a close loop control based on the measured sensor temperature. LSU 4.9 has a much higher sensor temperature resolution because of the resistance characteristics, so the heater controls are much better than LSU 4.2. Therefore, 4.9 has a longer life and better accuracy.

In short, not only the sensor LSU 4.9 is superior to 4.2; but also the controller with a Bosch CJ125 chip makes an OE equivalent system.

[joecar]

Interesting info, thanks.

[J.Abbott]

I use a ECM AFM1500, used Innovate and would never ever ever ever go back.

[HOWQUICK]

so what is everyone going to do now the LSU4.2 sensors aren't available?

[Highlander]

what do you mean they are not available?

[Highlander]

I use a ECM AFM1500, used Innovate and would never ever ever ever go back.
Can you elaborate why??? I have had nothing but success with them! They are extremely fast and can keep up with the Gen IV and Gen V ECUs.

I am not sure if the AFM1500 supports serial data which would be my strongest inclination.

I remember a magazine testing a bunch of widebands and the Innovate came out on top (could be sponsored though).

[HOWQUICK]

what do you mean they are not available?

Bosch have stopped making them. PLX and the likes have released their stuff with 4.9 sensor now...which is a far superior sensor.

You want to keep using the 4.2? Buy all the spares you can find whilst they are available.

[Highlander]

I guess I should then...... pepboys here we go.

[joecar]

...

I am not sure if the AFM1500 supports serial data which would be my strongest inclination.

...
The ECM AFM1500 supports serial comms...

see this: Add-the-ECM-AFM1500-to-the-serial-WB-list (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?12641-Add-the-ECM-AFM1500-to-the-serial-WB-list!&highlight=AFM1500)

( Howard Tanner @ Redline Motorsports figured out how to connect it, and Paul @ EFILive extended V2 firmware to talk to it )

[Supercharged111]

Wow, apparently I voted on this back in the day. I use a Techedge as a non-permanent install WB to switch between vehicles, mainly for troubleshooting. It's about to go full time in the Z06 now though. I also have a full time AEM in the truck. I wired both with TAQuickness cables, love them both. I bought the Techedge back in the day because my standalone (SDS) was primitive and lacked datalogging capabilities. A local guy ranted and raved about the Techedge so I gave it a shot. It's pretty badass, can take a lot of external inputs. Of course EFILive's capabilities blow it out of the water, which is why when I needed a full time gauge for the truck I got AEM because it was cheap and had a reputation for not sucking.

[samh_08]

Group buy on the 'ECM AFM1500'? :)

I wish the NGK was serial...

My LC-1 has been reliable, but am having a hard time getting repeatable results.

[J.Abbott]

Group buy on the 'ECM AFM1500'? :)

I wish the NGK was serial...

My LC-1 has been reliable, but am having a hard time getting repeatable results.

So if it is not repeatable then how is it reliable? Just because it turns on does not mean anything. I went through 2 LC-1's and pretty much all their other WB's plus countless new sensors because I was told that was the issue. I have had my AFM1500 since 09, same sensor, still dead on and never so much as one issue.

[samh_08]

Good point. Reliable compared to a lot of people getting error codes. Mine at least fires up and reads data every time.

Im not kidding about the group buy deal if anyone is interested..

[HOWQUICK]

Good point. Reliable compared to a lot of people getting error codes. Mine at least fires up and reads data every time.

Im not kidding about the group buy deal if anyone is interested..


i tune day in day out moving widebands from car to car and then validating them against other widebands on the dyno and the good old PLX gets the job done. Some of my sensors are 7 years old and going strong.

now they are using the 4.9 sensor, there will be no reliability issues with snotty noses.

[HOWQUICK]

Group buy on the 'ECM AFM1500'? :)

I wish the NGK was serial...

My LC-1 has been reliable, but am having a hard time getting repeatable results.

are you sure it is the LC-1 and not the calibration drifting?

[samh_08]

are you sure it is the LC-1 and not the calibration drifting?
Also a valid point. Example of what Im sorting out:

Start logging when driving steady state down a no traffic road when everything is up to operating temp and start hitting cells with a BEN of say .96 CONSISTENTLY in a certain cell. 10 minutes later with the same ECT and IAT in the SAME log and SAME driving conditions, I can hit that cell and it will show 1.03 BEN as the raw data and start averaging the cell up.

Now, what would you guys think is happening?

[HOWQUICK]

Also a valid point. Example of what Im sorting out:

Start logging when driving steady state down a no traffic road when everything is up to operating temp and start hitting cells with a BEN of say .96 CONSISTENTLY in a certain cell. 10 minutes later with the same ECT and IAT in the SAME log and SAME driving conditions, I can hit that cell and it will show 1.03 BEN as the raw data and start averaging the cell up.

Now, what would you guys think is happening?

same gear and speed? What load points and rpm are you indicating?