Tuning for E10

[WHYTRYZ06]

I have a 2001 z06 SD tuned w/ efilive.... I do all my own tuning....

ok here goes.....

Should I set the stoich at 14.63(GAS) or 14.12(E10) THESE ARE THE STOICH VALUES THAT I USE...

Does the E10 make a difference in fueling @ WOT? Any gas w/ ethanol should technicaly be richer depending on how much ethanol is added

Now up here in the northeast all the pumps use E10.... so what u think? remember Im sd tuned, so no maf for corrections....

thanks

[5.7ute]

If using E10 set the stoich value to 14.12.
The stoich value needs to be correct for the pcm to inject the right amount of fuel. (Remember the pcm uses EQ for commanded fuel not AFR.)

[WHYTRYZ06]

If using E10 set the stoich value to 14.12.
The stoich value needs to be correct for the pcm to inject the right amount of fuel. (Remember the pcm uses EQ for commanded fuel not AFR.)

Rite all we have here is E10.... I use AFR not EQ.... its a preferance thats all

[mr.prick]

I don't think {B3601} really does anything other than convert EQ into AFR. :nixweiss:

If you change {B3601} you will need to change your WBO2 output to match or
make new calc_pids to convert voltage to AFR and a new BEN.

IMO {GM.EQUIVRATIO}>{GM.AFR}
Commanded AFR ≠ {B3601} (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13124&highlight=gm.afr)
I have calc_pids for converting EQ & Lambda to AFR and BEN from EQ

[5.7ute]

To keep it simple, we need to go back to what we are trying to achieve, which is a certain amount of fuel to suit the amount of air in the cylinder. This is done by varying the pulsewidth of the injector to suit the condition.
Pulsewidth is calculated from airmass/AFR/IFR multiplied by 1000 to give us ms.
Aimass is derived from the VE table.
AFR is {B3601}/the commanded fuel in EQ.
IFR is {B4001}
If {B3601} is incorrect for the fuel used, actual will not correspond with commanded AFR unless one of the other tables is fudged. 99% of the time it is the VE table since this happens during the AutoVE process.
For instance, say you are shooting for an AFR of 12.72:1(EQ 1.15 with pump fuel) with 14.63 in B3601 with an airmass 0.92 G/cyl. IFR of 5 G/sec.
0.92/(14.63/1.15)/5*1000
0.92/12.72/5*1000 = 14.4654ms
When in actual fact you needed
0.92/(14.12/1.15)/5*1000
0.92/12.27/5*1000 = 14.9959ms
This leaves a substantial shortfall of 0.5305ms that needs to be addressed. Usually as stated earlier by misreporting the airmass in the VE table.
Hope that makes sense.

[5.7ute]

I don't think {B3601} really does anything other than convert EQ into AFR. :nixweiss:



It has to mr.prick, otherwise the pcm wont know how much fuel needs to be injected.

[WHYTRYZ06]

I don't think {B3601} really does anything other than convert EQ into AFR. :nixweiss:

If you change {B3601} you will need to change your WBO2 output to match or
make new calc_pids to convert voltage to AFR and a new BEN.

IMO {GM.EQUIVRATIO}>{GM.AFR}
Commanded AFR ≠ {B3601} (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13124&highlight=gm.afr)
I have calc_pids for converting EQ & Lambda to AFR and BEN from EQ

I changed my wb02 AND B3601 to read 14.12 w/lm programmer I have an lc1 then I used this custom PID (JOECAR, made for me).... {EXT.AD1} * 1.923 + 9.614 and my wb gauge dont match whats on efilive....

Is my custom PID correct?

ANY IDEAS?

So now I changed B3601 to read 14.12 and my LC1 setting to read 14.63 afr and my custom pid is this....(EXT.AD1} * 2 + 10 and my WB gauge reads the same as efilive...

weird huh?

[5.7ute]

The stoich setting in the LM programmer only changes the AFR on the screen. The analog or serial output is based on the lambda reading (inverse of EQ)

[WHYTRYZ06]

The stoich setting in the LM programmer only changes the AFR on the screen. The analog or serial output is based on the lambda reading (inverse of EQ)

HUH? im lost.. please explain in better detail

thanks

please look at this thread too...

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=119010#post119010

[mr.prick]

The analog signal is going to be slower than digital,
so if it's off a little don't worry too much.
Innovate stuff can only be programmed to precision .1 (14.6) and the PCM setting is precision .6 (14.628573)

To be able to check your expression we need to know the min & max Lambda & voltage
set in the LMProgrammer software and the value of {B3601}

I tried to explain how to match WBO2 output to {B3601} here. (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13229)

[WHYTRYZ06]

ute,

what i need is for EFILIVE scantool to match what my WB gauge reads....

what need 2 be done?

[5.7ute]

Have you tried what mr.prick has done here. http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=13229

[WHYTRYZ06]

Ok this is what i did 1st...

set my LC1 w/ lm programmer to custom setting - 14.12 AFR (E10)

B3601 set to -14.12 AFR (E10)

Custom PID- {EXT.AD1} * 1.923 + 9.614 (E10 PID)

and my dynotune gauge did not match my efilive scan tool

THEN I DID THIS....

set LC1 to 14.7 factory gas setting

B3601 to 14.12 AFR (E10)

custom PID {EXT.AD1} * 2 +10 (my gas pid)

and that made my dynotune gauge match my efilive scantool

MAKE SENSE?

[5.7ute]

What are the voltage outputs set to in the lm programmer? How many Volts at stoich?
If 2.5 volts at stoich that would give you an AFR reading of 14.42:1.

[WHYTRYZ06]

What are the voltage outputs set to in the lm programmer? How many Volts at stoich?
If 2.5 volts at stoich that would give you an AFR reading of 14.42:1.

lemme go check be rite back.....

[WHYTRYZ06]

this is what it reads....

analog 1
0v 10 afr
5v 20 afr

0v 0.680 lambda
5v 1.360 lambda

this is what hooks up to my AD1 on efilive

is that what ur looking for?

[5.7ute]

this is what it reads....

analog 1
0v 10 afr
5v 20 afr

0v 0.680 lambda
5v 1.360 lambda

this is what hooks up to my AD1 on efilive

is that what ur looking for?

Yep. Give me a minute & I will work something out.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Yep. Give me a minute & I will work something out.

Ute wait thats for the factory gas settings ill need to do one for my E10 AFR...hold up 1 sec

lemme go back and set my e10 afr in the lc1

[mr.prick]

this is what it reads....

analog 1
0v 10 afr
5v 20 afr

0v 0.680 lambda
5v 1.360 lambda

this is what hooks up to my AD1 on efilive

is that what ur looking for?

What is in {B3601}?

[5.7ute]

That voltage is set up for a stoich AFR of 14.7. So an actual AFR of 14.12 (Your fuels actual stoich) will read 14. 7 on the wideband.
What voltages does it show when you set the LM1 up with a custom AFR?

[WHYTRYZ06]

ute,

when i changes the settings on the lc1 to 14.12 afr the lambda values stayed the same, but the afr values changed....why?

[5.7ute]

Ute wait thats for the factory gas settings ill need to do one for my E10 AFR...hold up 1 sec

lemme go back and set my e10 afr in the lc1

Doh.

[WHYTRYZ06]

What is in {B3601}?

i already said, 14.12 afr....

[WHYTRYZ06]

Doh.

the lambda settings stayed the same

[5.7ute]

ute,

when i changes the settings on the lc1 to 14.12 afr the lambda values stayed the same, but the afr values changed....why?

Yeah, thats fine. Like I said earlier the AFR part is only for the wideband display. It will just need a bit of thinking to get the Efilive pid worked out.

[joecar]

Yes it does do contortion on the brain... :D

[mr.prick]

this is what it reads....

analog 1
0v 10 afr
5v 20 afr

0v 0.680 lambda
5v 1.360 lambda

this is what hooks up to my AD1 on efilive

is that what ur looking for?


i already said, 14.12 afr....

With all these settings the expression is:
({EXT.AD1}*1.9203)+9.602

2.35 volts = 14.12 AFR
2.35 volts = 1.00 Lambda

[WHYTRYZ06]

Yeah, thats fine. Like I said earlier the AFR part is only for the wideband display. It will just need a bit of thinking to get the Efilive pid worked out.

so can u come up w something? joe already posted his on my other thread...

[5.7ute]

What did the AFR values change to?

[5.7ute]

Awesome work on the spreadsheet mr.prick.

[WHYTRYZ06]

What did the AFR values change to?

14.12 programmed into the lc1

0v=9.59
5v=19.19

and the 1v and 2v did as well

[5.7ute]

That still leaves the same expression as mr.prick gave. So you can program the 14.12 setting into the lm-1 & use mr.pricks expression in a calc pid to give you the correct AFR on both.

[WHYTRYZ06]

ute.

this is what joecar came up with


Based on the LC-1 being programmed for gas being 14.7, here's what I come up with:

GAS (stoich 14.63): {EXT.AD1} * 1.990 + 9.952
E10 (stoich 14.12): {EXT.AD1} * 1.921 + 9.605
E85 (stoich 9.78): {EXT.AD1} * 1.331 + 6.653

So for example, if the LC-1 was reporting 2.35V those equations would give:
gas AFR = 14.629
E10 AFR = 14.119
E85 AFR = 9.781

[WHYTRYZ06]

ute,

this is what mr.prick came up with
({EXT.AD1}*1.9203)+9.602

2.35 volts = 14.12 AFR
2.35 volts = 1.00 Lambda

and joecar

E10 (stoich 14.12): {EXT.AD1} * 1.921 + 9.605

pretty close if u ask me...

[mr.prick]

ute,

this is what mr.prick came up with
({EXT.AD1}*1.9203)+9.602

2.35 volts = 14.12 AFR
2.35 volts = 1.00 Lambda

and joecar

E10 (stoich 14.12): {EXT.AD1} * 1.921 + 9.605

pretty close if u ask me...

The PCM will not have 14.12 in {B3601} it will be 14.12xxx
Joe may have went the extra mile and did the proper conversion,
I used 14.12
If you want it perfect copy and paste {B3601} here.


Awesome work on the spreadsheet mr.prick.

Thanks.
I think this is a subject that gets overlooked.
It makes serial WBO2 that much more of a selling point for EFILive. :)

[WHYTRYZ06]

The PCM will not have 14.12 in {B3601} it will be 14.12xxx
Joe may have went the extra mile and did the proper conversion,
I used 14.12
If you want it perfect copy and paste {B3601} here.



Thanks.
I think this is a subject that gets overlooked.
It makes serial WBO2 that much more of a selling point for EFILive. :)

thanks 2 all 3 of u guys for the help;;;;)))))

[5.7ute]

The PCM will not have 14.12 in {B3601} it will be 14.12xxx
Joe may have went the extra mile and did the proper conversion,
I used 14.12
If you want it perfect copy and paste {B3601} here.



Thanks.
I think this is a subject that gets overlooked.
It makes serial WBO2 that much more of a selling point for EFILive. :)

It sure does.
In the next hour I will be doing some testing with the RR and B3601 (as well as some other stuff). Mainly to verify that IBPW will change with B3601. I will keep you posted.

[joecar]

...
Thanks.
I think this is a subject that gets overlooked.
It makes serial wbo2 that much more of a selling point for efilive. :)+1.

[5.7ute]

mr.prick. I can verify that the pcm uses B3601 in calculating the pulsewidth. By using the RR in emulation mode at idle & first increasing B3601 to 18.1 & then decreasing to10:1 the idle was clearly affected. Check out around frame 350, where pw increases while commanded EQ stays constant & commanded AFR also changes.
This proves that
1 the pcm uses EQ in its tables.
2 that commanded AFR is a calculated value between whichever commanded fuel table is active & B3601. Hopefully this will clear up a few issues.
Sorry for making this thread go off on a bit of a tangent WHYTRYZ06 but I believe this is important information in relation to the original question.

[mr.prick]

Mick, in that log commanded AFR went lean & IBPW went up :confused: although
IBPW only went up a little.

WBO2 was not present, it would have been interesting to see if that changed as well.
ECT was low & high commanded EQ what happens in closed loop?

The RR sure does come in handy for experiment like these. :)

[joecar]

Yes, I need to get me an RR some time... (I already spent my budget on car parts).

[5.7ute]

Mick, in that log commanded AFR went lean & IBPW went up :confused: although
IBPW only went up a little.

WBO2 was not present, it would have been interesting to see if that changed as well.
ECT was low & high commanded EQ what happens in closed loop?

The RR sure does come in handy for experiment like these. :)

mr.prick. the IBPW went up when I changed B3601 to 18:1 for a reason. First map increased from the change in actual fuelling, which caused the commanded EQ rise. Hence a higher pw. Later in the log (frame 350) when I went the other way shows things much clearer.
Wideband AFR would have to change, since a longer pulsewidth is more fuel.
Closed loop would have trimmed everything back to stoich if in range of the trims, but this would obviously throw PE etc out. I guess all I am trying to say is set B3601 to the stoich ratio of the fuel you are using before doing AutoVE. Otherwise the airmass estimation will be incorrect.

[WHYTRYZ06]

ok guys here is what i did....

1. set b3601 to 14.12afr
2. use joecars custom e10 pid
3. programmed my lc1 to factory 14.7 afr and set analog 1 to 10 & 20 and analog 2 to 10 and 20...

result = didnt work.... afr on my wb did not match what the scantool showed...

so then i did....

1. b3601 to 14.63
2. use custom pid {EXT.AD1} * 2 + 10
3. kept the factory lc1 program @ 14.7 and analog 1 set to 10 & 20 and analog 2 to 10 & 20

result = it worked!!!! my wb now matches what the scantool shows ( within a decimal point, which is acceptable )

what i was thinking is justr adjust b3647 for which ever fuel im useing so if wot on gas is 12.5 afr and im useing e10 id set it to 12.0 afr...

thoughts?

[mr.prick]

You're right Mick. :grin:
Look at this short log in closed loop.
It takes a few seconds for actual EQ to follow but it does lean out,
I over did it a little. :angel_innocent:

[5.7ute]

You're right Mick. :grin:
Look at this short log in closed loop.
It takes a few seconds for actual EQ to follow but it does lean out,
I over did it a little. :angel_innocent:

I went to 18:1 AFR so you didnt overdo it too much.:hihi:
It really highlights the importance of setting B3601 to the fuel being used. Otherwise you will run intp problems, especially during enrichment.
WHYTRYZ06. The proper way is to set B3601 to 14.12. Set your commanded fuel tables in EQ. Then just change B3601 when you are changing fuels. That way all the calculations are done internally by the pcm. (And you only have 1 table to change)
So
1. set b3601 to 14.12afr
2. use joecars custom e10 pid
3. program your lc1 to 14.12 afr.

[WHYTRYZ06]

I went to 18:1 AFR so you didnt overdo it too much.:hihi:
It really highlights the importance of setting B3601 to the fuel being used. Otherwise you will run intp problems, especially during enrichment.
WHYTRYZ06. The proper way is to set B3601 to 14.12. Set your commanded fuel tables in EQ. Then just change B3601 when you are changing fuels. That way all the calculations are done internally by the pcm. (And you only have 1 table to change)
So
1. set b3601 to 14.12afr
2. use joecars custom e10 pid
3. program your lc1 to 14.12 afr.

i could do that, but joe said to keep my lc1 programmed at 14.7... so reprogram it to 14.2, i can try it and report back tomm

[joecar]

Andy, try programming the LC-1 to 14.12 and see what happens.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Andy, try programming the LC-1 to 14.12 and see what happens.

u got it joe and ill send u my calc pid file tomm as well

[joecar]

In the LC-1 User Manual, it says (in the chapter on programming using LM Programmer software):

"On this page you can see the software version of the LC-1 and you can change the multiplier to
calculate AFR from Lambda. A number of different multipliers are already pre-selectable but you
can change it to a custom one for the particular fuel you are using."


So I was under the impression that the AFR you entered here was for the display of the AFR in the LM Programmer software...


For example:

if the LC-1 is programmed for (stoich being 14.7): AFR = 2*v + 10
then lambda = AFR/14.7 = (2/14.7)*v + (10/14.7) = 0.1361*v + 0.6803

Then to get AFR for another fuel, lambda is multiplied by the stoich AFR for that fuel...

So did I mis-interpret the purpose of the AFR you program into the LC-1 via LM Programmer...?

[joecar]

u got it joe and ill send u my calc pid file tomm as wellOk.

[WHYTRYZ06]

In the LC-1 User Manual, it says (in the chapter on programming using LM Programmer software):

"On this page you can see the software version of the LC-1 and you can change the multiplier to
calculate AFR from Lambda. A number of different multipliers are already pre-selectable but you
can change it to a custom one for the particular fuel you are using."


So I was under the impression that the AFR you entered here was for the display of the AFR in the LM Programmer software...


For example:

if the LC-1 is programmed for (stoich being 14.7): AFR = 2*v + 10
then lambda = AFR/14.7 = (2/14.7)*v + (10/14.7) = 0.1361*v + 0.6803

Then to get AFR for another fuel, lambda is multiplied by the stoich AFR for that fuel...

So did I mis-interpret the purpose of the AFR you program into the LC-1 via LM Programmer...?

umm, idk u got me... u know how i come to learn things...now what? did ur calculation come out wrong? what should i program the lc1 to? and what pid to use?

[joecar]

umm, idk u got me... u know how i come to learn things...now what? did ur calculation come out wrong?Andy, no, I was just thinking out loud to see what other people had to say about the LC-1 and LM Programmer.

Go ahead do what 5.7ute said...

[WHYTRYZ06]

Andy, no, I was just thinking out loud to see what other people had to say about the LC-1 and LM Programmer.

Go ahead do what 5.7ute said...

use ur e10 pid and reprogram the lc1 to reaad 14.12 as well as b3601?

[joecar]

Andy, look at this:

The lambda expression from the LC-1 is: lambda = 0.1361*v + 0.6803

stoich 14.70: AFR = lambda * 14.70 = 2*v + 10
stoich 14.63: AFR = lambda * 14.63 = 1.991*v + 9.953
stoich 14.12: AFR = lambda * 14.12 = 1.921*v + 9.606
stoich 9.78: AFR = lambda * 9.78 = 1.331*v + 6.653

which is what I calculated yesterday.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Andy, look at this:

The lambda expression from the LC-1 is: lambda = 0.1361*v + 0.6803

stoich 14.70: AFR = lambda * 14.70 = 2*v + 10
stoich 14.63: AFR = lambda * 14.63 = 1.991*v + 9.953
stoich 14.12: AFR = lambda * 14.12 = 1.921*v + 9.606
stoich 9.78: AFR = lambda * 9.78 = 1.331*v + 6.653

which is what I calculated yesterday.



ok so? what do i do? what ute said recal the lc1 to 14.12 when i use ur e10 pid?

[joecar]

Yes, do like 5.7ute said, program the LC-1 to with 14.12 and use the E10 pid, let's see what it says.

[WHYTRYZ06]

Yes, do like 5.7ute said, program the LC-1 to with 14.12 and use the E10 pid, let's see what it says.


and b3601 to 14.12 as well rite? just for the heck of it... what if i used e85? use the e85 pid and set b3601 to 9.78 and recal the lc1 to 9.78

[joecar]

Yes, set all 3 like this:


1. set b3601 to 14.12afr
2. use joecars custom e10 pid
3. program your lc1 to 14.12 afr.


If you use E85, then set them (1 and 3) to 9.78 and use the E85 pid.

[WHYTRYZ06]

joe one other thing... why does my wb match efilive when i set b3601 to 14.63 and program the lc1 to 14.7 and use the 2 + 10 pid? like i said its so damn close, why tho? any ideas?

[joecar]

joe one other thing... why does my wb match efilive when i set b3601 to 14.63 and program the lc1 to 14.7 and use the 2 + 10 pid? like i said its so damn close, why tho? any ideas?I don't know yet... but we're about to find out...

[WHYTRYZ06]

I don't know yet... but we're about to find out...

ok ill do what ute said and report back... tty tomm afternoon

[5.7ute]

joe one other thing... why does my wb match efilive when i set b3601 to 14.63 and program the lc1 to 14.7 and use the 2 + 10 pid? like i said its so damn close, why tho? any ideas?

My take on it.
Programming the lc-1 to 14.12 will only change what the guage reads. It wont change the voltage output which is based on the Lambda scale.
For instance at a Lambda value of 1.0, for ease lets say 2.4 volts is output.
When a stoich mix is measured, (either 14.12 AFR for Ethanol or 14.7 for petrol) 2.4 volts will be output into Efilive. The calculated pid is then used to convert this into the value.

When you set B3601 to the stoich ratio of the fuel, the pcm then knows from Airmass, commanded AFR & IFR how long the injector must be open to inject the required amount of fuel. If however you have done the AutoVE procedure with the wrong value for the fuel in B3601 your VE table will be wrong. So when you change B3601 to the correct value, you will have not injected the correct amount of fuel & will get a different result from your wideband sample.

[WHYTRYZ06]

My take on it.
Programming the lc-1 to 14.12 will only change what the guage reads. It wont change the voltage output which is based on the Lambda scale.
For instance at a Lambda value of 1.0, for ease lets say 2.4 volts is output.
When a stoich mix is measured, (either 14.12 AFR for Ethanol or 14.7 for petrol) 2.4 volts will be output into Efilive. The calculated pid is then used to convert this into the value.

When you set B3601 to the stoich ratio of the fuel, the pcm then knows from Airmass, commanded AFR & IFR how long the injector must be open to inject the required amount of fuel. If however you have done the AutoVE procedure with the wrong value for the fuel in B3601 your VE table will be wrong. So when you change B3601 to the correct value, you will have not injected the correct amount of fuel & will get a different result from your wideband sample.


i dig what ur sayin ute, but ill try what u said 2 do and report back... if what u say 2 do dont work IE my wb match efilive scantool, i will use the method that does, which is what i have in the car now.... ill report back in the AM and let u guys know what works and what dosent...

[WHYTRYZ06]

ok guys,

i did what ute said, result didnt work

so, what i did was...

1. b3641-----14.68afr
2. 2 + 10 pid used
3. programmed lc1 t 14.7 afr

result = WORKED...... WB MATCHED EFILIVE

NOW IM DONE, thanks for all the help

[5.7ute]

What were the scanned/ guage values?

[WHYTRYZ06]

What were the scanned/ guage values?

ute its hard 2 say, but it was 1-2 points off in afr... my new way is off by decimal's which is acceptablle

[bmd2_colo]

So, I've read this a few times and some other threads on E10, B3601, etc.

So, changing B3601 (to 14.1) will affect ALL fueling, right? Makes sense that it would.
Crank would be more rich, PE more rich, but EQ remains at 1, right?

Now, as far as the NB O2's still looking for 14.7 (450 mv), whats the deal with those?
I'm thinking of using the NB O2 voltage displayed when the WB reads 14.1 as the switch point.
I did this on my TBI truck(s) when I wanted to run 14.1.
I set the Mean Rich/Lean voltage to something like 925mv, then retuned the VE table.
I know that was a totally different system, but the core ideas are still there.

I guess I'm kinda wondering what the verdict was on how to tune for E10.
B3601 to 14.1 and retune, or B3601 to 14.1 and raise NB O2 switch point, then retune?

I could have this all wrong lol

Thanks

[5.7ute]

Set B3601 to 14.1 . Then you may need to tweak the 02 switchpoints if E10 burns hotter or colder in the exhaust. (Never used it)
The narrowband sensors will switch at an EQ of 1.0 regardless of the fuel used. They dont care what the AFR actually is.
As for retuning, if the engine has been tuned correctly with pump gas (14.7:1 stoich ratio) Your Airmass tables (either the VE table or MAF) will not need to be retuned as long as B3601 was correct for the fuel used.

[bmd2_colo]

Ok, cool.
Thanks, 5.7ute.

[5.7ute]

Ok, cool.
Thanks, 5.7ute.

No worries.
I am working on rewriting all of this to make it easier to undestand. I dont come across all that clearly most of the time.:doh2: