6th getting locked out at high speed!

[trailermasher]

At 130+mph (210+km/h), ~3600rpm, 6th is locked out in all shift modes preventing any high speed cruising. It will downshift 6>5 at 130mph regardles of throttle postion (pedal/actual) or load.

Nothing in the E38/T43 tunes makes any difference. I've tried changing all the relavent tables/settings, including blocking 5th over 100mph in all modes!

Anyone else had this problem?
Anyone tried 6th over 130mph/210km/h?
Is there another else I can try to maintain 6th over 130?
Is this another BCM controlled parameter (like original speed limiter)?

I have been trying to get the Middle East settings/cals (ME speed limiter at 205mph), but can't get HoldenCrazy.com any more!

I don't get on the Autobahns as often as I'd like, but this really spoils the experience!

I have a '07 HSV GTS - trans details:

VIN 6G1EX55U57L87****
PCM flash 2Mb
Operating System 24239353
Calibration 24239647
OS ID AA
BCC 9647
Cal file name 24239353.calz
Cal file version 7.06
Cal file date 28 April, 2009
Operating System 24239353 $92368B30
Transmission Calibration 92201909 $C1426AA2
Transmission Diagnostics 92201910 $94E4F133
System 92201911 $49D10FAC

Engine cal details (near stock again):
VIN 6G1EX55U57L87****
Engine Gen-IV V8
Transmission 6L80E Auto
PCM flash 2Mb
Operating System 12612381
Calibration 12612380
BCC YPRZ

From what I can understand, HPT has the abiliity to over come this.

Also, T43 "Hot Shift Speeds" {D1005} and {D1006} headings wrong way round!!!!!!

Any help grately appreciated.

[joecar]

Hi trailermasher,

Welcome to the forum...:cheers:

Can you post your .tun file.

[trailermasher]

Thanks for the welcome. :cheers:

I'm new to tuning, as well as EFILive. I have been playing around with the TCM tune for the last 5 months or so, but still can't get it to stay in 6th above 130! Response from 5th at these speeds is good, but it's a bugger on fuel when trying to cruise for 100+miles. :confused:

Currently using this one:

7699

It's a work in progress!

I don't know if anyone else has tried to use 6th over 130mph, there's not many opportunities!

Thanks,

trailermasher.

[A6sportsracer]

I race the 6l80e in a Can-Am "like" car. Last year I was at Miller Motorsports Park for NASA championships. This was the first track I was able to use 6th gear. I use manual (Sport Mode) shifting exclusively. I had no problem selecting and holding any gear I wanted. There are certainly enough parameters to adjust you should be able to make it work for you.

[trailermasher]

I race the 6l80e in a Can-Am "like" car. Last year I was at Miller Motorsports Park for NASA championships. This was the first track I was able to use 6th gear. I use manual (Sport Mode) shifting exclusively. I had no problem selecting and holding any gear I wanted. There are certainly enough parameters to adjust you should be able to make it work for you.

Hi, thanks for the reply.

There is no setting within the T43 tables that prevents the downshift from 6th at 130. The options available should allow any gear to be held for any rpm/speed. This makes me think it is probably being controlled by another module, maybe body control module, like the speed limiter is.

There is an option in the T38 and other engine controllers to change the limiter control from the BCM to the ECM. I think the T43 options may need something similar to get around the problem.

Have you made the manual shifts quicker for racing use?

The stock HSV maunal shift speed is very slow (~1s) and needs serious forethought when on a track, especially when changing down 2 or three gears as the display shows the gear you want, not the gear in use. I ended up mostly using 3rd and 4th at the Nurburgring and relying on the torque to power out of corners. It was very wet though! I have speeded up the auto shifts but haven't had much change on the manual shifts.

What engine/power you running through the 6L80E?
Have you had to strengthen the 'box for racing or is the vehicle so light weight that it doesn't matter? ;)

[A6sportsracer]

I am sorry to say I am not familiar with automatic operation. Everything I do is to prevent any un-inteded shifting while in manual mode. And I have not had any problems holding 6th in manual mode.

I have shortened the shift times, not sure how far I should go with those. Does any one have any limits in mind?

I am currently running a stock LS2 in a 2000 lb car. I lock the torque converter in 2nd. gear and keep it locked during the shifts. Trying to make this thing behave like a manual as much as possible.

The gear box is stock and so far it has stood up for a year of hard racing, about 14 weekends.

[trailermasher]

A 2000lb car with ~400 flywheel minimum... mmmmm.....nice!!! :rockon:

It take it you run the box as close to a sequential as you can get?

I can only lock the TCC in 3rd up (normal mode) or 4th up (sport) but have set it to lock up below 60% throttle in 2nd and in 3rd up in manual mode. It can be a bit harsh on the road at times. Also set with 200 rpm slip.

I have it locked for all upshifts but not for power downshifts.

Good to hear about no gearbox problems, but I'm sure the light car weight helps.:hihi:

:cheers:



Had hoped someone who knows the R8/G8, GTS or Senator to offer some ideas by now!?!
I'm sure it's BCM controlled, like the speed limiter, but still can't find a way around it.

The Chevy Middle East version has the speed limiter set to 205mph from the factory, so should be able to use 6th above 130?
Might have to try and get a ME BCM flash?

Be easier if EFILive could include a controller selection, to reduce the BCM's influence over the TCM and ECM!

Why doesn't EFILive have any access to the BCM?

Would the BCM module have to be swapped out or can it be programmed to suit?

It would be good to have some access to the display combinations, door lock options, oil warning light level/sensitivity, approach lights, etc...

Although there are some options in the dash menus they are not very good!

Someone out there must have the answers!!!! :help2:




















:mad: AARRRRRGGGGHGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

[joecar]

...
It will downshift 6>5 at 130mph regardles of throttle postion (pedal/actual) or load.
...

Are you sure that when this happens that the operating point is still above the D1001 6->5 curve (or any of the 6->5 curves/parameters)...?

Post a log file.

[Blacky]

Be easier if EFILive could include a controller selection, to reduce the BCM's influence over the TCM and ECM!
Why doesn't EFILive have any access to the BCM?


Its just not something that we have had any need to develop. Unfortunately it is not something we are planning to develop any time soon.

Regards
Paul

[Dieselman]

Hello Trailermasher,

My 08 Calais will go into 6th in active select and hold it all the way to the limiter. It downchanges in sports mode but that is to be expected :)

I will post a file when I after I purchase EFILive.

All testing undertaken on PRIVATE roads :secret:

[gmperformancecentre]

try this trans tune.i modified the one you posted
should change from 5th to 6th at 215 kms(135mph)
check the in the history dated may 10th to see what i change before you upload it.
if you are happy with it give a go
don't know if will work but might be worth a try.
other users out there download and have a look and post your comments as i,m no 6 speed auto expert :angel_innocent:

[gmperformancecentre]

also contact steve at oztrack
he knows how to tune 6 speed auto gearbox's very well :rockon:

[trailermasher]

Thanks for all the replies.:good:

Paul, should you get the opportunity to provide some BCM access, I think many would use it.
Did you see the comment about T43 {D1005} and {D1006}?

I had problems with the "Hot" settings cutting in with the limiter, I have been reluctant to change these to much, a) because of the issue above and b) it is a 'box safety setting. But even with these set lower I still had the downshift.

What triggers the "HOT" override settings, is it TFT?

I've had a look at your adjustments, I see what you getting at. The stock tune and HSV tune has the normal settings close to the b settings rather than the a settings, but the normal profile doesn't seem to be a setting used on the road, just a and b.

I haven't had a chance to check it yet as I've busted a rear 20" alloy and need a full set of new boots. :cussing:
Also, can't really just pop out and test at 130+. :angel_innocent: :music_whistling_1:

Hopefully, I'll get a chance next weekend.

Lots in the UK use Oztrack for tuning, but none have tried their A6 tune yet, I'll drop them a line and see what they've got! :thumb_yello:

I'll keep you informed of progress, it's probably something simple that I've missed but it still shouldn't occur in manual mode. :confused:

Keep the sugestions coming, I'm still a newbie and learning all the time and being an old(er) dog, new tricks are harder to learn.:hihi:

Cheers :cheers:

[Dieselman]

As promised here is my standard 2008 Holden VE Calais flash file

Hope it helps :)

[Tre-Cool]

after some testing of my own and multiple flashes to the ecu and tcm with maxxed out speed limit's. i have found that my car has the same problem when it hits 243kph (150mph).

with the convertor locked and even at part throttle i hit a timing cut from fark knows where. possibly from B5153 or B5157.

see screenshot below where it commands -10 degrees. Also my 6th gear is locked out over 220kph. even if im in 6th apon acceleration the transmission will automaticaly downshift into 5th.

10297

I'm starting to think there is a module restricting the speed. I've even gone as far as to tell the ecu tune that the speed cut is referenced from the ECU itself instead of Other Module.

[Dieselman]

I noticed my tranny has started kicking back to 5th once over 220kph even when in TUTD mode. It used to stay in 6th manually up to the limiter :angel_innocent:

I will go back through my tunes and see what has changed. I think it may have something to do with turning TM off???

[Tre-Cool]

yeah i think it might be to do with tm & the torque convertor protection values.

i made some changes to these area's but havent had a chance to test yet.

the reason why i think it's a tcc issue is that it is the only area that has a fuel cut set for protection, and all my rev limit stuff is done via timing or throttle.

[Dieselman]

yeah i think it might be to do with tm & the torque convertor protection values.

i made some changes to these area's but havent had a chance to test yet.

I haven't changed anything in the tranny apart from the TM setting for upshifts. I have a Oztrack tune in the box so haven't messed with it too much.


Cheers

Ben

[Treurentner]

Hi,
has anybody tried to use an Vette based OS 24243170 instead of a Camaro based OS 24249179 to solve this T43 downshift issue?
Kind regards
Marco

[TBMSport]

Have you checked your ECM torque and engine protection settings?

[Treurentner]

No Changes on this...

regardless of the torque or throttleangle.

It ALWAYS shifts down form 6->5 at 230 km/h
and if I lift off the throttle it does NOT shift down to 6
if the speed is over 230 km/h

I just added this short log to illustrate this..
11968

And for the files (TC .cal) for those that can watch tem...

1197011969

Any recommendations how to solve this?

Kind regards

Marco

[Tre-Cool]

i cant open your files. were they downloaded with efilive?

anyway to fix your problem you need to change D9420. this is the torque limits per gear. you will notice 5th and 6th are much lower than the first 4. i have mine all set to 900.

but you need to log what engtrq numbers you are logging through the trans. mine only goes as high as 814nm. wiht is with a blown ls3 with 75psi fuel pressure on 60lb injectors.

[Treurentner]

Sorry, these files are in Tunercat file format. But the tables from TCM that you mentioned
are all alredy maxed out and set to 663,8 ftp.

Next week the car will be here again, and we will log the tq numbers.
But I think we will not have a solution until we definitely know that there is no hidden platform limit (may be from BCM) that could be made for warranty reasons.
For the C6 Corvettes with LS3 and 6L80e (E67 and T43) these problems are completly unknown.
Btw. the Camaro is supercharged with an EForce SC.
:grin:

[Tre-Cool]

well to fix it in my ve commodore (G8) i set the speed limit to ecm module. that made no difference. so i then changed the above and it fixed my problem.

[Dieselman]

anyway to fix your problem you need to change D9420. this is the torque limits per gear. you will notice 5th and 6th are much lower than the first 4. i have mine all set to 900.

Good info I will try this with mine :thankyou2:

The strange part about mine is when it was all stock it would never drop back into 5th when in TUTD mode. Hopefully your settings will fix the problem :hihi:

Cheers

Ben

[Tre-Cool]

that's probably because when it was stock all though it took a little longer to get to the higher speeds, your werent maxing out the torque values.

big difference torque wise for a 2ton car to reach 260+ kph in 30 seconds vs the same car that does it in 18. :-)

[Tre-Cool]

so doing a bit of thread digging. still chasing the 6th gear lockout from 230kph.

this time its in a camaro. for testing we just used a hoist. put it in tutd and as soon as wheel speed got to 230kph it downshifted to 5th.

this car has over 900+whp and we have a top speed event coming up soon, so want to make sure we can use 6th gear if & when it winds out 5th.

Anyone had any luck?

[joecar]

I take it that each of the up/down shift curves does not cross any other curve...?

and that none the WOT up/down speed points are upside-down...?

Can we see the curves...

[Tre-Cool]

yeah the curves are far apart in tutd mode. for instance the 5-6th shift is set to 275kph but you can still shift into 6th before that. downshift from 6th to 5th is 80kph.

as soon as you hit 230kph it down shifts. i had the same problem in my own car along with the 255 speed limit, but that is easily fixed by setting the speed limiter control to ecm.

we might be okay with 5th gear as calculations say he should get to 205mph in 5th with his diff and tyre size.

[jrad12381]

Any updates on this. I have a 6l80 in an off-road car I race and when I am in 4lo it does the same thing. It locks me out of 6th gear and I bounce off my rev limiter at 90mph. If I could get 6th gear to work it would make things much better.

[Tre-Cool]

Interesting. does the trans know if it's in 4low by any chance?

could try messing with the wheel speed calculations to trick it, but then that would probably throw all your auto shift speeds out of whack

[jrad12381]

No the trans doesn't know that it's in 4lo. I originally thought it was keeping me in 5th because of the trans temp being hot. I now have 2 trans coolers and the trans stays 190-200 degrees during very hard driving. I am not familiar with the trans tables but I'm wondering if it shows me exceeding a certain speed or output rotation speed.

[baldur]

I too have this problem and I have concluded that it is an output shaft RPM limit set somewhere in the TCM. If I change the final drive ratio in the cal the shifts all happen much later but the speed at which it drops 6th and goes into 4th remains unchanged. Really wish there was a solution to this. I am dealing with a car that has a low range box and it can't go any faster than 50km/h in the low range before the trans just downshifts into 4th. Changing the gear ratios in ECU and TCM and thus the perceived speed by the ECU and TCM only affects the shift speeds but has no effect on this behaviour. Also, using the scan tool DVT tab to hold 6th has no effect, it will downshift no matter what.

[SuperSchnecke]

No one really got the answer...?

No we got 2019....:w00t:

[Tre-Cool]

well i had sort of agreed on the theory above, but i've seen a table in other software where there indeed was a speed limiter.

i think from memory i seen in it a 2010/2011 camaro os, but not in a earlier os version of the same year.

[SuperSchnecke]

looking forward....maybe the answer is in a .bin read of the tcm?
tuning is not my business, but with enough time and reading....

[izaks]

If D9420 is the problem, I have checked VE, Maloo, CTSV, and Camaro , and the are all set to 0 for 5th and 6th at 3000.
The Camaro ZL1 is set to 575 for 5th and 0 for 6th
Not able to test at the moment - on the todo list

[SuperSchnecke]

just the torque limit.
the ss doesnt need a reduction, too low power in this hear.

[SuperSchnecke]

Has anyone play around with speedo hardware?
Because it seems to be a problem by VSS signal to/from TCM .
Speed output type can be : vehicle serial, vehicle repeat tos or wheel speed.

[raceghost]

Has anyone play around with speedo hardware?
Because it seems to be a problem by VSS signal to/from TCM .
Speed output type can be : vehicle serial, vehicle repeat tos or wheel speed.

Elaborate more for me please?

[SuperSchnecke]

I change it from serial
to wheel.
seems to be just the tach signal.
last night i read something about the tcc.
someone told that he use the 6th by disable tcc lock . as long as not at wot it works...but I have just not try this.

[Tre-Cool]

So thread dig again, now that i'm have been building cax files and going through some t43 bin files. I did some testing on 2 of my own cars which are running the same os/cal but have different gear ratio/tyre sizes.

In short I believe i've worked it out to be an input shaft speed limit for 6th gear of 3757rpm.

24206

24207

Now just need to find where this value is coming from.

[In-Tech]

Hiya Tre-Cool,
Do you have the ability to post a .bin file for this t43? If not, can you let me know year/make/model/OS and the 3 other module #'s so I can see if I have one in my archives to look at?

[Tre-Cool]

24208
24209
Heres 1 of my cars with the 24256025 OS. For comparison i've attached a compatible OS that i normally replace with the 6025.

I spent some more time playing with 1 of them yesterday and now believe it's an OSS not ISS limit. I'll be pissed if it's some sort of calculation of ISS to OSS for 6th gear lockout as I have no idea how or where to find that.

To test i changed the vss pickup teeth from 36 to 18 & with the car jacked at the diff, went up to the kick back speeds. Actual wheel speed was half of what was expected along with the ISS. Since it effectivily doubled the OSS speed it hit the limiter at roughly the same 5640rpm'ish drop down area.
24211
I'm confident it's not a torque value either because there is really no actual engine load to get it up to speed free wheeling. (it's not pushing the car on the road)

I'm basically looking for rpm's referenced around that area searching in the bin trans segment & blindly testing.... *however it would not suprise me if there is an area in the OS level where they define this limit?

[Tre-Cool]

So i found the limiter & it is linked to Output Shaft RPM.

In the 2 os files i have which are compatible, the raw hex value is the same.

01 00 B0 40 AD 70
24212

[In-Tech]

Hi Tre-Cool,
I'm not seeing anything RPM related but to me all the tables that do the 6-5 shift are too high, maybe I am looking at it wrong. If you are at a tps and your mph is lower, it will downshift.


Normal Shift Speed (MPH) Vs. TPS Vs. Shift - 5->6

%TPS Shift
5->6 6->5
0.0 52.8 49.7
6.25 52.8 49.7
12.5 52.8 49.7
18.75 55.9 52.8
25.0 60.9 55.9
31.25 69.0 62.1
37.5 83.3 65.9
43.75 102.5 74.3
50.0 116.8 82.6
56.25 131.1 96.3
62.5 145.4 110.0
68.75 159.7 121.8
75.0 174.0 135.5
81.25 174.0 167.8
87.5 174.0 167.8
93.75 174.0 167.8
100.0 174.0 167.8

Have a look through this .txt doc and see if you see anything else.24213

[Tre-Cool]

"If you are at a tps and your mph is lower, it will downshift."

Correct, but if you look at the TUTD shift speeds, the factory generally max's the upshift out but it still lets you control the upshift. same for going down, but it will follow the downshift for once it reaches the lower target.

so if your in 6th at say 160kph and then accelerate the trans will force a downshift whether your using 100% or 10% pedal input regardless of the value in the shift table as the output shaft speed overrides it.

I've found the same value/limit in a few other calibrations now too.

I do have a question that you might know, is it possible to turn a unsigned data input to a signed input & the ecu understanding the change? I'd think not.

Do you sell these definitions? that is killer! I'd love to get some T43 lovin but it's not really on efi's radar anymore.

[In-Tech]

Hi Tre,
I am not sure what you are asking(signed/unsigned doesn't bother me, but there are variants). Can you provide an example of an area this is used? I don't have a lot of experience with the t43 or t87 so I am learning as well. Since these are "torque" as well as other inputs, it does get confusing to me.
Thanks

p.s. from memory an unsigned is an odd decimal and signed is even(like a supposed checksum or intel type checksum) It's been a while since I did any of this older stuff ;) I like it :D

[Tre-Cool]

scrap the unsigned/signed question. i kinda worked it out myself. 10k rpm for instance would never work as a 16 bit integer.

I was wondering if it was possible to go above the 8192rpm limit.