finally did some logging, need help..

[badls1]

hey, i went out an did a little logging yesterday. im pretty sure i have i right pids this time so it should be good. what do you guys think? i need some help on what to change.
thanks-curt

heres the tune and the log i did

[WeathermanShawn]

Hello there:

Just did a quick scan, so forgive me if I missed any bigger details.

Overall, not bad..I take it most of your tune is stock. A couple of things stood out:

1. Generally positive LTFTS.
2. Some KR..though the stock tune is woefully low on the amount of High-Octane Spark for WOT.
3. Fuel injectors are getting close to maxing out..91%..not too bad, but not a lot of margin.
4. I am not sure what is going on with your narrowband O2 sensors. Your average is very lean (275-290), and during PE mode it looks like they go to near zero? How old are they?

Thats just a very quick synopsis. You have the normal things like disabling COT B0701, to maximizing the PE AFR B3618. I would find a better Spark Table B5913..perhaps from a 1998..

In all honesty it would take pages to say where to begin, but thats a very quick synopsis from this end. It does not look too bad..but something about the narrowbands look wrong?

Perhaps some other readers will comment.

Good luck..

[5.7ute]

I would like to see the SAE.MAP intake manifold absolute pressure pid logged, not the map sensor voltage pid before I come to any conclusions.

[badls1]

what do you mean by a 1998 spark table? should i copy and paste the table from a '98 into my tune? one oxygen sensor went bad and i replaced it a little while back, the other could be going too.
5.7ute-my next log ill be sure to record the SAE.MAP intake manifold absolute pressure.
btw- what kind of logging do you guys like to see? dogging it in 5 gear? wide open runs?
thanks

[badls1]

can i turn my ltft's off?

[WeathermanShawn]

what do you mean by a 1998 spark table? should i copy and paste the table from a '98 into my tune? one oxygen sensor went bad and i replaced it a little while back, the other could be going too.
5.7ute-my next log ill be sure to record the SAE.MAP intake manifold absolute pressure.
btw- what kind of logging do you guys like to see? dogging it in 5 gear? wide open runs?
thanks

No, it was just a suggestion. The 2001 (IMO) has a very conservative spark table.

You can turn your LTFTS 'off', but that is not really pertinent. I would model airflow, spark, and fueling in a very systematic way. You have to first decide what kind of tune you want.

Best to tune in your dyno gear..I use primarily 3rd and 4th (M6). I do WOT where I can safely do it.

F.Y.I., there are some great Tutorials on how to get started on the EFILive website.

Good luck..

[5.7ute]

I like to see the car driven as you would normally, with a few WOT runs at first. This will give you the solid base to work from. Once those areas are sorted you can then start working on the not so commonly hit cells.
You can leave the fuel trims on. They should reset every time you flash in a change to the tune.

[joecar]

Hi badls1/Curt,

Log SAE.MAP (kPa) instead of GM.MAP (V) as 5.7ute/Mick said above.

Looks like both front NBO2's stopped functioning (resulting in DTC P1133 and P1153 being Current)...

The first part of your log shows the front O2 voltages switching too slowly (0.7+ seconds/cycle)... and then they pretty much stop switching and PCM goes into Open Loop (and trims go to zero)... you'll have to find out what's wrong (how many miles on the O2's...?)

Also your MAF may soon throw a DTC, the scantool shows P0101 as Pending.

What mods you have...? Is the MS4 cam in this car...?

Edit: I see your sig now, I don't remember if I saw it before... :doh2:

[badls1]

im going to do some logging tomorrow and ill make sure i change that pid. one oxygen senor is almost new, the other one ive never changed, ill check them out tomorrow. any way to test an oxygen sensor? im not sure on the MAF, i did have it disconnected when i working on the car, could the code be from then? i have the ms4 along with the mods in my sig.
thanks

[badls1]

did some more logging today. i switched out my o2 sensors but i still think the bank 2 one is messed up. not sure why the maf sensor performance is showing up some of the time as a DTC or the TPS sensor.

heres the logs and the tune

[WeathermanShawn]

BadLS1:

I would probably get a wideband hooked up and perhaps do an AUTOVE. I am no expert on O2 sensors, but obviously there appears to be a major problem in their ability to properly switch. Your LTFTS have maxed out.

Basically your car is running in closed-loop and is begging for fuel (or at least your PCM thinks so). I can not tell if your MAF code is due to the O2 sensors putting you into open-loop, or if their is such a large difference in your MAF airflow vs your MAP.

Looks like maybe you were doing revs at idle? I see the TPS % jumps, but no increase in VSS. Perhaps that set off a TPS code?

I will be honest. You have some major tuning ahead of you. Since you are in and out of MAF codes anyway..you might as well go Speed Density Open-Loop and start from there.

Here is a good link to the AUTOVE: http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/AutoVE Tuning Tutorial.pdf.. (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/AutoVE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf)

If you ever go back to MAF closed-loop, here is a Tutorial that can help you out: http:///download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE Tuning Tutorial.pdf (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf)

I really think these two options will really help you. Joecar is also very good at looking at logs and tunes. He may spot something I may have missed. He will also probably encourage you to go step-by-step in tuning.

We are all here to help. Here is one more link that really describes all the different methods of tuning: http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=119640&postcount=21

Good luck..

[badls1]

thanks guys, i appreciate your help alot. i think im going to try autove and see how that works out

[badls1]

okay, so looks like i need a wideband before i can do much more with my tune

[joecar]

I'll have too look at your files later today...

[badls1]

can i do autove without a wideband? i need to get the car running a little better just so i can drive it better. hopefully ill have a wideband by the end of the week tho.

[DrkPhx]

There's all kinds of fun stuff going on in that log. As Joecar mentioned, there are 5 different DTC's set. You need to fix them and get to the root cause before attempting any tuning. Especially the P1133 and P1153. The P0121 and P0101 are reason for concern as well. Have you ever run leaded gas in the vehicle? I would also look at exhaust leaks near the O2's. You need to log ECT as well.

[badls1]

nope all i've ever run is unleaded 93 in the car. im pretty positive there are no exhaust leaks either. the wierd thing about the o2 sensors is, on saturday i brought my car to work, cuz i was gonna try changing out the o2 sensors, and we put the car on the snapon scanner and and it showed that the driver side(bank 1 i think) o2 sensor was going rich/lean correctly(at idle), the passenger side one was not working right i think.

*might pick up a set of bosch 13111 o2 sensors and see if it fixes it

[DrkPhx]

Either you have an exhaust leak or vacuum leak. Both the 02's are switching nearly identical (barely and hardly ang lag between the two) which is causing the both LTFT's banks to follow them. If you're sure there are no exhaust leaks, check for vacuum leaks in the intake tract, but also check around the intake, TB, etc as well. You have something going on there.

BTW - I prefer the AC Delco sensors to the Bosch. They're more expensive, but to me they last longer and switch better. My .02.

[badls1]

think i got the o2 sensors all figured out. did a log and changed my spark tables a little. my narrow band is saying 11.7 AFR at 100% throttle. i want an air/fuel ratio of about 13 AFR right? which tables need to be changed to lean it out a little? i was looking at the "where to start for tuning" and id like to get the IFR table dialed in, but i dont have excel, so are there any other spread sheets i can use?
thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

my narrow band is saying 11.7 AFR at 100% throttle. i want an air/fuel ratio of about 13 AFR right? id like to get the IFR table dialed in, but i dont have excel, so are there any other spread sheets i can use?
thanks

Your narrowbands say 11.7AFR? What does your wideband say?

[badls1]

i dont have a wb yet, but should be getting one this week

[joecar]

We can calculate your IFR...

what injectors do you have and what does your rail pressure measure at...?
do you have the stock FPR...?

Shoot for 12.6-13.2 at WOT...

It's not safe to make WOT AFR changes without a wideband.

Do you have FlashScan V1 or V2...?

[badls1]

i have stock injectors (28lb). i dont have a gauge on my rail, should i? the FPR is stock too. im running flashscan V1
thanks

[joecar]

No, don't need to install a gauge on the rail...

borrow a GM fuel pressure gauge from AutoZone (i.e. tool loan) and temporarily connect it to the fuel rail (Schrader valve in front of driver side rail), and measure the pressure in psi while you snap (immediate open, immediate shut) the throttle... it should stay at 58+/-1 psi... if it drops more than 2 psi when you momentarily snap WOT then something's wrong.

(throttle snap places momentary load on the motor while it tries to rev up from idle)

If gauge shows sufficiently close to 58 psi and you have stock 28 lb/hr injectors, then the stock IFR is fine.

How much peak HP are you expecting to develop (i.e. will the 28 lb/hr injectors be sufficient...? With nitrous...?)...?

Edit: if you're running nitrous, then it becomes very important that your fuel pressure does not drop from 58 psi at load.

[badls1]

thanks, ill either go down to today or tomorrow and check it. im hoping to get around 400 whp. i will prob. end up spraying a 100/150 shot, but it will be a wet kit, getting fuel from off the rail, so it shouldnt effect the injectors right?

[badls1]

is there any other ports to check the FP. i tried taking the schrader valve out and the little notches on the schrader valve broke off, so the schrader is stuck in. guess ill have to get rails now, but i dont really have the money for one now, so is there any way to get around that step in the tuning process?

[joecar]

Did you do this:
- remove the external cap from the end of the fuel rail,
- connect the external pressure gauge over the Schrader valve...

The Schrader valve stays in the rail, you shouldn't have to take it out...

[badls1]

the FP gauge that i had required the schrader being removed first. maybe ill see if i can get a different attachment for the gauge

[joecar]

They should have one with a GM fitting on the end, it screws onto the external thread surrounding the Schrader, and it has a pin which pushes the Schrader valve open internally.

[badls1]

checked my fuel pressure today. was 57-58 psi at idle and didnt change when i revved it