Why does 1st gear slam into 2nd? 4L80E translplant

[1SlowHoe]

Long drawn out story but the short version is:
I swapped my 60E to an 80E. Both 2WD. My original OS did not support an 80E. I did a segment swap from another OS. My 1-2 up shift is ridiculous. It will break the tires loose at 10mph and cause people to spill their drinks. I have replaced the valve body in the trans with one setup by a trans builder I trust (Finish Line Transmission). I double checked the 2nd VSS to make sure it was wired to the PCM correctly. The trans has an updated TransGo HD shift kit, drilled to the middle setting. It also slams into 4th at part throttle sometimes.
I have adjusted all the tables I understand with no luck. The very first shift in the morning is perfect when the trans is cold. After it has made a few shifts, it’s hard as hell. This leads me to think it has something to do with the transmission fluid temp tables. I don’t know enough about what drives final transmission line pressure to know what I’m doing. Any help is appreciated. My current tune is attached.
Been dealing with this for about 3 years and enough is enough….
Would swapping to a custom OS solve this? How do I do that?

Chris

[5.7ute]

Have you looked through this thread. There is some important info in relation to a kitted trans.http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=1723&page=2

[joecar]

Hi Chris,

Have a look at table D0704.

A custom OS will do the same thing.

Also, follow what 5.7ute said, try setting shift times tables D1108-10 to zero.

[1SlowHoe]

THANKS GUYS, LOOKING NOW, AT D0801 AND D0704...:cheers:

[1SlowHoe]

D0704:
The pressure control solenoid (or force motor) is controlled by the PCM by varying the current flow to the solenoid.
The PCM can vary the current from 0.0 amps (high pressure) to 1.1 amps (low pressure).

I have negative numbers in this table. How does that work? Should I be raising these numbers to LOWER line pressure?

[1SlowHoe]

One place says 1108-10 to be 0.0 and another says .2
I made some big changes to D0704. Am I off track?

[5.7ute]

I havent had any real experience with tuning auto's.(Only done the one stock box)
From my understanding the tables D1108-10 need to be set to zero to allow the shift kit to do its job. Otherwise the adaptive learning will try to take over control of the shifts, which it cannot since the shift kit has taken this function away.
This usually results in weak line pressure & a ruined trans in a short amount of time, I am not sure if it can cause a high pressure issue but the possibility is there.
Also, are you sure there are no DTC's in the log?

[1SlowHoe]

No DTC's that I can find. I am about to upload and test drive to see if the changes made any difference. Be right back. :unsure:

[1SlowHoe]

No difference:shock:

[jfpilla]

I realize your not getting any codes. But since nothing is working so far, you might try setting E0802 to 50.

[5.7ute]

I would also be fitting a guage to the test port & seeing what pressures you have. You may have some hardware issue with the kit that is causing inflated line pressures.

[LS1_Dragster]

Your tune looks OK to me so I would focus on the wiring. Maybe the converter is locked? Have you logged the trans parameters to get a better idea on whats going on? Attached is what I log for the trans.

Lee

[1SlowHoe]

I realize your not getting any codes. But since nothing is working so far, you might try setting E0802 to 50.

What will this do?

[1SlowHoe]

I would also be fitting a guage to the test port & seeing what pressures you have. You may have some hardware issue with the kit that is causing inflated line pressures.

I just replaced the entire valve body and solenoids tryin to solve this. I double checked the wiring but I can check again this wknd when I get a chance. I had a gauge on there before and I cant really remember what it said but if I remember right it was pretty high, over 150 psi at any throttle position.

[1SlowHoe]

Your tune looks OK to me so I would focus on the wiring. Maybe the converter is locked? Have you logged the trans parameters to get a better idea on whats going on? Attached is what I log for the trans.

Lee

I dowloaded your files but I really have no idea how to set up a pid file to scan these while driving. Is there a step by step on how to set this up so I can log and post for you guys?

I feel the converter lock and unlock during daily driving so I dont think its locked all the time.

[1SlowHoe]

I also loaded this tune which I added 100% TQ management in and dropped line pressure 75% and it made no difference. wtf?

[5.7ute]

Save the trans.pid file in the MY Documents/efilive V7.5/pids folder.
Then when you open the scan tool select the pids tab, then the open an existing pid file
icon. This will give you a list of presaved pid files. Select the new trans file & you will have all the necessary pids that Lee uses.

[jfpilla]

What will this do?

If the PCM thinks the trans is slipping it raises line pressure and causes hard shifts. Just a shot in the dark. It won't hurt to try it.

[1SlowHoe]

Hope this helps!
Logged from the attached tune

VIN:1GNEC13ZX2R133495
6.0

[LS1_Dragster]

Somethings not right, your trans pressure stays at 90psi most the time and the converter slippage matches the engine RPM which is probably causing the line pressure to go so high. I'm no expert but it does look like VSS is out of whack and wired incorrectly.

Lee

[LS1_Dragster]

I just looked at your log and there is a P0717 Input speed sensor low voltage, so there's your problem! There must be a wiring issue....

Lee

[5.7ute]

Max line pressure in this condition is turned off in the tune file. That adds to the confusion.

[1SlowHoe]

I just looked at your log and there is a P0717 Input speed sensor low voltage, so there's your problem! There must be a wiring issue....

Lee

Awesome! Any idea how I track down what sensor that is? I guess I will just redo all the connections and see what I get....

[1SlowHoe]

Max line pressure in this condition is turned off in the tune file. That adds to the confusion.

Ya, I turned off all the DTCs that could trigger max line pressure.

[LS1_Dragster]

should be the rear sensor but I would check both and make sure theyre not crossed.

[1SlowHoe]

P0717
Input/Turbine Speed Sensor Circuit No Signal

Not sure what that means lol

[Big Mike]

P0717
Input/Turbine Speed Sensor Circuit No Signal

Not sure what that means lolOn a 4L80E that would be the forward sensor, nearest the bell housing right above the manual shift lever.

[1SlowHoe]

Hmm, well 2 days ago I found that the sensor was wired backwards and thought I had solved my problem so I reversed the wires and it made no change. Any chance the sensor is bad? Maybe burned up from being plugged in wrong? Seems unlikely since this sensor is the same as the first day I started the engine and trans. Unless it was bad from day one.

[Big Mike]

I've experienced the sensors going bad on several occasions. And in your case since this has been an issue for so long I wouldn't hesitate to replace it. They're cheap anyway.

[1SlowHoe]

Part number?:grin:

[1SlowHoe]

24203876 (I think) and 34823

[Big Mike]

24203876 (I think) and 34823Correct for the Delco sensor number. Less than $20 too.

[1SlowHoe]

Just pulled it out. Of course it looks fine. There's no way to test one with a multi-meter or anything is there? I will see if I can track a new sensor down tomorrow.
Thanks for all the help so far guys!

[1SlowHoe]

I just looked at your log and there is a P0717 Input speed sensor low voltage, so there's your problem! There must be a wiring issue....

Lee

Where do you see that DTC at on the log?

[LS1_Dragster]

When the log is open click on OBD II (F7) or press F7 then click on the DTC tab.

After thinking about it, since the input RPM always matches the engine RPM that would indicate there is no signal from the forward sensor, Duh.

Did you replace the computer when you did the swap? Maybe the input wires go to different pins with either a new computer or even the same computer but with the different trans? Just thinking out loud...

Lee

[1SlowHoe]

I used the stock PCM. Others have made the swap and had no issues. I used pins 22 and 23 for the 2nd VSS

[joecar]

D0704:
The pressure control solenoid (or force motor) is controlled by the PCM by varying the current flow to the solenoid.
The PCM can vary the current from 0.0 amps (high pressure) to 1.1 amps (low pressure).

I have negative numbers in this table. How does that work? Should I be raising these numbers to LOWER line pressure?D0704 adds to the commanded shift pressure... so a negative number subtracts.


One place says 1108-10 to be 0.0 and another says .2
I made some big changes to D0704. Am I off track?With a shift kit set D1108 to zero... but I don't think that's the problem (see what 5.7ute said about PCM trying to soften the shifts).


I just replaced the entire valve body and solenoids tryin to solve this. I double checked the wiring but I can check again this wknd when I get a chance. I had a gauge on there before and I cant really remember what it said but if I remember right it was pretty high, over 150 psi at any throttle position.That points to the pressure regulator sticking, but read the next quote:


Somethings not right, your trans pressure stays at 90psi most the time and the converter slippage matches the engine RPM which is probably causing the line pressure to go so high. I'm no expert but it does look like VSS is out of whack and wired incorrectly.

LeeThis inicates that the PCM is commanding pressure high.

Also log TSTATE07, TSTATE08, want to see if PCM thinks it has to command max pressure.


I just looked at your log and there is a P0717 Input speed sensor low voltage, so there's your problem! There must be a wiring issue....

LeeTry setting P0717 in table E0101 to off.


Hmm, well 2 days ago I found that the sensor was wired backwards and thought I had solved my problem so I reversed the wires and it made no change. Any chance the sensor is bad? Maybe burned up from being plugged in wrong? Seems unlikely since this sensor is the same as the first day I started the engine and trans. Unless it was bad from day one.Do you have it wired up...?

Also log GM.TIS and GM.TOS... (remove some other pids, we want fastest update rate).


I used the stock PCM. Others have made the swap and had no issues. I used pins 22 and 23 for the 2nd VSsaSo you do have ISS wired up...? Then P0717 is indicating that the ISS (front sensor) is producing a low voltage, i.e. either the sensor is bad or the wiring has a poor connection.

[joecar]

Did you have this problem on this transmission before installing the shift kit...?

[1SlowHoe]

I bought a new VSS today. About to install it. I’ve had this problem since the trans was bought. 3 years ago. It had a shift kit in it when I bought it. All this time I assumed the separator plate was drilled way too big and that’s why I had hard shifts. I have a new valve body now that is set up correctly.
Where is the pressure switch you think might be sticking?

If the new sensor doesn't help then I will turn off the P0717 fault in table E0101.

Report back soon....

[joecar]

...

Where is the pressure switch you think might be sticking?
...
See component 231 in attached.

I don't think that this is the problem since your log showed the PCM commanding 90 psi

(i.e. the problem is originating from the PCM possibly due to the sensors it sees)

[ this 90 psi is the TORQUE SIGNAL hydraulic circuit you see feeding the bottom of the Boost Valve ]

[1SlowHoe]

Alright, the new VSS didnt seem to make a difference. I checked the 2nd (front) VSS wiring, seems good. I even soldered the connections. Its still throwing code P0717. I just turned off the reporting and the pressure adjusters associated with that DTC but Im not sure that's gonna help if the PCM really isn't getting a good signal. I will try this tune and see if it improves at all. I will also try to log with the previous PID file I got from Ute. I dont know how to set up on with the new PIDs you wanted. Be back in a minute...

[1SlowHoe]

Feels the same:fluffy:
Log attached:

EDIT: Looks like I used the wrong PID file. Grrr, I will get another one after I eat dinner :D

[1SlowHoe]

Correct log:

[5.7ute]

That last file was from Lee (ls1dragster) Here is a pid file with the pids Joe wanted to see.

[1SlowHoe]

Going to log. Be right back. Thanks for the help!

[1SlowHoe]

Here ya go :)

[1SlowHoe]

Here is a log and the tune that it came from. It feels like its getting better but still needs some softening up. Low speed low TPS seems ok now but higher TPS is still barking the tires on the 1-2.

[5.7ute]

Can you leave all those settings the same except for shift times, which you should return to about 0.3 & relog. (I know we had you zero them, I just want to see if it was necessary)

[1SlowHoe]

D1108-10 only?

[5.7ute]

D1108-10 only?

Yes.

[1SlowHoe]

As requested!:cheers:

The shifts at approx frames 1200, 1350, and 1675 were pretty good. Im not sure how to break those down to see what is causing it.

[5.7ute]

The earlier shifts were at a higher calculated engine torque, so line pressure was commanded higher.(This is only my opinion & may be incorrect)
D0701-3 may need the values lowering, but I am no expert so I would be waiting for someone like Joecar to put his eyes over the log.

[1SlowHoe]

Something seems to be working. I noticed on the log the 90psi constant pressure is now adjusting and right at the shift it drops to 8psi or so. So I guess the tq managment is doing its job, I just need to add more?
I guess I want to saturate the 1-2 shift at low tps/rpm with TM and then remove most of it for WOT shifting. I just dont know how the values work in the table D0801.
How much is too much?
Am I adding more than a stock trans would have programmed? Why?
What do the wires at the neutral safety switch control?
Any sensors that could affect line pressure?

Goin out to try this one....
Attached Log...

[5.7ute]

Neutral safety switch would only be to prevent starting in gear.
IIRC torque management is done by removing spark at the gear change, not line pressure. The lower line pressure in the log would be from the reduced spark giving a lower calculated engine torque. (See D0701-3)

[1SlowHoe]

Ok, well Im gonna let it be for tonight. It's 2am here and I have to work at 730:bad: LOL So hopefully Joe will have time to take a look and see what he thinks. Thanks again for all your help.:master:
Chris

[LS1_Dragster]

You still have P0717 turned off right? You still have a problem with that sensor. Your TCCSLIP RPM is still following the engine RPM which would indicate their is no signal and since P0717 is off the computer is not commanding 90PSI. You need to put a ohm tester on those wires at the computer to make sure one of the wires isn't broken. Have you ever traced the wires to the computer?

Also, do you mean brake switch or safety switch? If the brake switch it turns off the TCC lockup when the brake is applied.

As for the reason it's still hard shifting, that's your shift kit working along with a stock converter. A stock converter has no cushioning effect when the trans shifts hard, for this reason I would never do a shift kit with a tight converter, especially when you have an electronic trans that you can firm the shifts electronically.

Lee

[LS1_Dragster]

Also, test the AC voltage at the computer. Jack up the vehicle, use jack stands, put in gear and see if you have AC voltage at the computer. Between this and testing the wires with an Ohm meter you will find the problem!

[joecar]

Each time I go to sleep at night you guys make 16 posts... I need some time to read thru and look at the files... :)

[joecar]

In the later logs I see:
- TFMPRS is not pegged at 90 psi anymore,
- TFMPRS is dropping very low during the shift, and you say the shift is still firm? This tells me the shift is firmed by the shift kit and the PCM is just adding on top of that.

Leave the shift times at 0.3s.
Play with shift pressures and shift torque reduction like you have.

Which shift kit is installed? Does it have "levels", can you alter it to a lower "level"?

I'm not done looking, I'll look deeper later today.

[1SlowHoe]

OK, so today I tried to test that sensor. I jacked up the truck had another person put it in gear and let it roll up to about 25mph. I got no voltage reading from the sensor at the PCM or as far back as I could trace. The sensor is brand new. The wires are in loom and soldered at the connections into the PCM. In gear, in park, rear tires moving or not I got NO voltage reading in VDC. I was assuming this is a 5 volt sensor but I could be wrong. When I put the meter on millivolts I got some reaction but that could just be noise I guess.
What is the best way to test these wires? If I knew how to get the pins out of the computer I would just run new wires from the sensor to the PCM but first I want to make sure I'm testing it right.

[1SlowHoe]

Also the converter is not stock. 2600 stall Vig triple disc.
The shift kit is a TransGo HD drilled to the middle setting by a performance trans shop that I know does good work. The shifts are definitely softer when the PCM commands 8psi instead of 70-90psi at the shift. I just don’t know at what point am I adding too much TQ management. What's the highest value you would put in that table?

[LS1_Dragster]

You need to use the AC setting on your VOM, it should bounce around as the tires spin. There is NO 5v on the line, the sensor generates an AC signal that the computer sees as pulses.

There is no need to keep trying to band aid the computer, you need to have the VSS fixed! At 8psi your probably going to be burning up parts over time.

I have a Vigilante 2600 in my Yukon and looking at your RPM vs MPH starting out it is WAY tighter then mine. Mine goes to 2000 starting out. My firebird goes to 2400 starting out (it's a 3000 stall). I assumed yours was stock because your were if I remember correctly, was 1200-1300 starting out.

Lee

[1SlowHoe]

This is the meter I have. What should I set it on?
Test with the tires turning?

[LS1_Dragster]

The first setting with the V with a ~ over the top.

[1SlowHoe]

Gonna be around for a few? I will go see what I get...

[LS1_Dragster]

Actually, it may be the 3rd one. Try both. You are looking for a jumping signal when slow and then much higher and more steady the faster the tires are spinning.

Yes, I'll be here.

[1SlowHoe]

3.5 in gear at 0mph up to 12.xx at 40mph. Varies with truck speed. Seems to be working as advertised.

[LS1_Dragster]

Bad computer? Or maybe the software is messed up? Now you have to figure out why the computer is not seeing the signal....

[1SlowHoe]

1.5 ohms or so in park, moves around between 1.5 and 2.0 in gear and tires rolling.

[LS1_Dragster]

Have you pulled the connector off the computer to make sure the terminals arent dirty?

[1SlowHoe]

Bad computer? Or maybe the software is messed up? Now you have to figure out why the computer is not seeing the signal....

Maybe it's not the correct pin outs? Frustrating....

[LS1_Dragster]

Are you talking ohms or AC volts?

[1SlowHoe]

Are you talking ohms or AC volts?

First post was AC volts, second post was ohms.

[LS1_Dragster]

Ohms seem low, I think it should be ~400 Ohms.

So, did you replace the computer or mess with the wiring at all? What is the colors of the wires?

[1SlowHoe]

Just tore the PCM apart and I think the :cussing:@$*%ing pins are NOT seated all the way into the PCM so they are not making contact with the wiring harness. GRRR I hope thats the issue. I'm sure thats why I'm getting the code but I wonder about the shifting. Prolly gonna be a few for me to mess with this.Take a coffee break LOL!

[1SlowHoe]

I'm pretty pissed and happy right now.
Pissed because it looks like the pins not making contact were causing all the problems. :bad:
Happy because I think its fixed. It shift sooooo smooth and soft:shock:

Attached is the log I took and the tune that was loaded. I went back to my original tune with just a few minor adjustments and it's pretty much awesome on the shifts. If you guys would take a look and make sure I don't have too much tq mngmnt or something else that might burn up the trans. I could actually stand to firm up the shift a little now :doh2:

Joecar and LS1_Dragster, thanks for all your help on this. I know I was driving you nuts:grin:

:thankyou2:

[joecar]

When you measure a speed sensor using that particular DMM, set it to AC volts (~V), and press the Hz button...

as the speed increases so will the Hz.

[joecar]

Good job... :cheers: ...so it was P0717.

TFMPRS looks good in your log.

Ok, I see you restored the shift pressures tables.

Also, try setting the shift times to 0.2s and see how the shifts feel... fine tune by adjusting the shift torque reduction tables.

Also (not related): set the throttle kickdown tables to all 100% (avoids conflicting with the PT up/down-shift tables).

[LS1_Dragster]

I in my opinion, think your shifting and TCC tables are off. I took my tables for the Yukon and changed your tune file. You may want to give it a try and see if it feels better to drive.

I'm glad you looked at the computer terminals, it was the only thing left other then a bad computer!

Lee

[LS1_Dragster]

So, do you have a blower on this? Your log shows a MAP value of 104 at part throttle....

Lee

[1SlowHoe]

So, do you have a blower on this? Your log shows a MAP value of 104 at part throttle....

Lee

Yep, magnacharger m112. Makes about 9psi, cam, 4.10 gears, 6.0L swap and a 4L80E. Makes about 500 to the wheels:)

[LS1_Dragster]

What computer do you have? I don't know a lot about all that's out there but I do know that when I replaced the computer in my 3 vehicles to the 0411 computer with custom OS it was a dream come true. If you did you could use a 2 bar MAP sensor and control fuel and timing under boost.

How does it add extra fuel? On my Yukon I had to add a separate fuel management system to deliver the extra fuel but now the computer does it all.

Lee

[1SlowHoe]

What computer do you have? I don't know a lot about all that's out there but I do know that when I replaced the computer in my 3 vehicles to the 0411 computer with custom OS it was a dream come true. If you did you could use a 2 bar MAP sensor and control fuel and timing under boost.

How does it add extra fuel? On my Yukon I had to add a separate fuel management system to deliver the extra fuel but now the computer does it all.

Lee

Im still using the stock computer. The fueling is still controlled through the PCM. I added 42# Ford SVO injectors, an inline walboro 255lph external fuel pump, and a Kenne Bell boost-a-pump on a 2psi hobbs switch then the tuner did his thing. Not sure how it all works but on a loaded dyno he spun it up and added fuel based on the AFR reading from my WB O2 sensor. I only run about 17-19* of timing at WOT.

I only see KR from time to time when I lean into the throttle while in 4th and converter locked but not hard enough to command a down shift. Then I get 70-8* of KR instantly and I either down shift manually or get out of it.
I don’t think you have to go to a custom OS to use a 2 or 3 bar map. I thought the stock PCM could handle that you just had to adjust something on the tables. I've never looked that deep into it.