Where is all my timing going??? Log attached

[exploder]

427ci
YSI supercharger
SD tuned
NO METH

I have been working on tuning this car for a buddy of mine and I am getting pretty close, but it is pulling timing in boost and jumping around. I can't seem to find any one particular place it is coming from. I know I have it set up to remove some timing due to IAT's over 100F. What I don't understand is why it is pulling so much and why it is so jagged. It is getting almost no knock activity, but it is running a little too rich and has a small hesitation when coming into boost. Here is a log file...

[5.7ute]

Have you tried logging the Burst Knock pid? After a quick look timing appears to go weird with large a change in airflow.

[exploder]

I can log burst knock...but why doesn't knock show up on the log? It does have a pretty bad miss when rolling into the throttle right as its coming into boost. Anything else I should log? Here is another log I made earlier tonight.

[5.7ute]

It has been a while since I played with Burst Knock. But I am sure it does not show in the normal KR pid. Burst Knock is predictive, so any peaks or valleys in the VE table appears to set it off .
There are a few EST spark pids that may be useful in a log. If BKR doesnt show to be the problem you may need to log a few of these that are applicable to the set up.

[joecar]

For LS1, the burst knock pid is EST_KBR_DMA.

Like 5.7ute said, burst knock retard is predictive and does not show up in the KR pid.

The KR pid shows retard due to only detected knock, not predicted knock.

You may have to log the EST_xxxx_DMA pids to see where timing is going.

[exploder]

I went and looked for that PID but I can't find it. I can find 2 different burst knock pids and one was for the e38 and the other for diesel. What am I missing? I don't see it.

On a side note I have my fuel system boost referenced and I have modified LS9 injectors and I can't seem to pull enough fuel out of the tune in boost. Drivability is fine, but when I lay into it I go full rich on the wideband and it hesitates and sputters and shows full rich on my Wideband. However in the scanner it shows AF in the low 10s range. I have subtracted enough fuel that my boost ve is nearing the same numbers as my main ve. I'm guessing I'm going to have to keep pulling fuel until I get the sputter out. What has me scared though is it sounds like KNOCK. I don't detect any knock, but I don't know what else to do.

[joecar]

What OS id...?

Also, uncheck Supported on the PIDs tab.

[exploder]

I unchecked supported and still do not see it. Any other ideas.

OS 02030003 2 bar sd

[WeathermanShawn]

6th one down..
The screen-shot is from your EFI Log..:cheers:

[exploder]

Boy do I feel like an idiot....

I'm going to go log it tonight. I will report back what I find.

[WeathermanShawn]

Was that really it?

It really looks like Burst Knock. I get the concept of it, but it is basically worthless as a knock/tune feature (as long as you know how to tune Spark). Other than some TM, Air Conditioning Spark Retard, or TCC..thats really all it can be.

I would just zero it out..

Good luck..

[5.7ute]

Was that really it?

It really looks like Burst Knock. I get the concept of it, but it is basically worthless as a knock/tune feature (as long as you know how to tune Spark). Other than some TM, Air Conditioning Spark Retard, or TCC..thats really all it can be.

I would just zero it out..

Good luck..

Burst Knock does have it's place. Rather than being reactive, like a standard knock sensor which waits until it sees knock before acting, burst knock is predictive, and removes timing before the knock event can occur.
This can happen in cells that when under cruise conditions or full WOT are correctly tuned for MBT.
Exploder, If your injectors are large enough why not remove the boost reference line off the regulator & use the boost VE table to accurately model airflow? This will allow you to describe timing better under boost conditions.

[WeathermanShawn]

Good point, Mick..and he is boosted.

N/A I just found it a hassle. If you can remove burst knock and not get any KR..

OP, perhaps you should log it first (to verify Burst KR) and then make your decision after more research..:).

[5.7ute]

Good point, Mick..and he is boosted.

N/A I just found it a hassle. If you can remove burst knock and not get any KR..

OP, perhaps you should log it first (to verify Burst KR) and then make your decision after more research..:).

N/A I just zero it out & add it back whereever/if necessary. Sometimes it is better to lose a degree or two to BKR rather than a few more to actual knock. (Not including the possible engine damage that may result.)
I know Steve (Oztrack) played around with BKR as a form of launch control. His theory was to tune it to remove a bit of timing on the initial launch only & have it decay at the right speed to ensure good traction. I dont know how successful it was, but his consistant 1.5 60ft times show he had the car hooking up well.

[joecar]

...

Exploder, If your injectors are large enough why not remove the boost reference line off the regulator & use the boost VE table to accurately model airflow? This will allow you to describe timing better under boost conditions.But if he removes the reference line from the FPR then wouldn't he now need to make the IFR sloped...?

The manifold reference on the FPR only affects rail pressure and IFR, it has no direct effect on airflow/airmass modeling, right...?

He should still be able to accurately model airmass using the Boost VE table independently/regardless of the IFR table.

Did I miss something...? :doh2:

Without the manifold reference hose the IFR pegs out at zero MANVAC, but with boost he wants it to go in the negative MANVAC direction...

Seems to me that the manifold reference would be a better option since this keeps the IFR one constant value (constant injector pressure differential).

:) :)

[joecar]

...
Sometimes it is better to lose a degree or two to BKR rather than a few more to actual knock. (Not including the possible engine damage that may result.)
...
Very good tradeoffs... :cheers:

[5.7ute]

As long as the regulator is 1:1 on the boost side Joe I agree. It was his comment on how the boost VE table is extremely low that had me thinking that this isnt the case. (Here I go assuming again lol)

[joecar]

Oh, I see... yes only 1:1 on the boost reference... anything else skews the actual IFR and VE tables.

[exploder]

I was going to go logging again tonight, but it just started raining and with this much power and boost on tap with drag radials I'm asking for trouble. I'm really not sure if my stumble (knock sound) is from overfueling on initial WOT or if it's some form of knock. Another thing that happened today on my log is it hit a code 1516 and 1517 some kind of reduced engine power to do with the TB airflow. I got the 1514 code earlier in the tuning but I decreased the VE and IFR and BOOSTVE and that fixed that. I wonder if this motor is really moving this much air or what?

[joecar]

Yep, keep safe...!!!

Look at tables C6101,2.

There are other rationality tables C3003,4.

[joecar]

I have heard of rich knock, but I don't know how/what/when.

[joecar]

It's also possible to get a rich misfire, is that your stumble...? Wideband would show lean during a misfire.

[5.7ute]

Yep, keep safe...!!!



X2.
I did some acceleration tests on our track (1/4 mile) monday night. Even in dry conditions with roll on starts the wall came into view more times than I would like to repeat. I wont be doing any more testing on street tyres from now on. (not if I want to keep driving the car to work in one piece)

When you are able to do some more logging exploder post them up & we will see if we can spot anything helpful.

[exploder]

I went and made a few logs today and I think I got the AFR settled, and the timing doesn't just fall off now that I zeroed out the burst knock tables.

The problem now is even with the AF in the semi correct range I still have this horrible hesitation. It almost seems like it wont pull through it. I never get any knock retard on the scanner though. I gapped the plugs at around .035. I don't know if it's possible that I may have fouled the plugs, but wouldn't it run like crap all the time? It seems to run pretty good just normal driving around. As soon as you roll into boost and it hits around 5-7psi it starts spitting and sputtering like crazy and it will hardly accelerate. HELP

Here is the log and a new tune. Are my knock tables stock?

[exploder]

I think I may have found the problem. I asked my employee what plugs he put in the car and he told me tr6, but he hesitated when he told me. Anytime sombody hesitates when you ask a direct question is more than likely lying. I told him to go pull one off and let me look at it. I ended up watching him through the window and you should have seen his face when he turned around and saw me watching him. They ended up being TR55 not TR6 and they were also gapped at .045. I don't know what he was thinking, but I get to take it all back apart and hes not getting paid. I will report back when I get it all back together, but on a side note the plugs look GREAT. I will be wearing a sad face all weekend thinking about this.

[joecar]

The spark might be blowing out under load...?

Post a close up pic of plug if you can.

What coils and wires are being used...?

[WeathermanShawn]

O.K., guys I will ask the 'dumb' question. With the OP's SC application and COS5..is there no MAF?

I don't see a DTC..but if it is not physically there..

Just trying to learn..

Thanks..

[exploder]

I am running no maf at all only a IAT and MAP. I have a P0102 code when I check the codes through the instrument panel cluster through the car but the light is not on the dash. Is that wrong?

[WeathermanShawn]

If you don't get a MAF DTC then it will still run from the MAF... set P0101,2,3 in C6001 to 1-Trip.

I was just going by your posted log..(See attachment). It says NO DTC. The only way a car can run SD is with a the MAF Faulted (DTC). I don't know whether your Scan Tool is set to erase existing DTC's or not?

Lately, we have seen a half-dozen or so tunes posted (with problems) where tuners who think they are running SD or in reality not. In most cases the Engine DTC Processing Enablers C6001 are set improperly (to not report).

It becomes very difficult to know if one has indeed faulted the MAF. In most cases tuners copy the Low-Octane Spark to read exactly what High-Octane Spark indicates (remember in MAF Failure PCM uses Low-Octane Spark Table). So it becomes hard to see if indeed the MAF has failed.

Think how a car will run if one thinks the MAF is failed, but in reality it is not? Personally, I am not 100% sure how setting C6001 to Non-Emissions affects the DTC Code. I am just relaying what quite a few have posted in the last few months. Thats why I always set C6001 to 1 Trip, Emissions Related when I utilize SD. It always then shows up as a DTC. Call it overkill, but I set C6002 to MIL. Its a good check.

One thing seems for sure. You can not run SD without failing the MAF. That is whether it is physically present or not. I do not know if this perfectly describes your situation, but something to highly consider.

Good luck..

[5.7ute]

Shawn, when BBl I never get the p0102 code showing in the log. I have just put it down to using this method of logging as it is definately failed in my tune.

[WeathermanShawn]

Very interesting..

Good to know Mick. I think Joecar and I have seen a number of SD 'MAF-Failed' tunes lately, that were still actually using MAF. And the MAF calibration was way off.

It is too bad we do not have a banner or indicator..that says MAF Failed. I fell victim to the same problem for a day or two. So, now when I test SD (CLSD) I usually make the Low-Octane Spark a degree different than High-Octane..log both CYLAIR and DYNCYLAIR and make it throw a DTC Code.

Mick, any ideas to help people insure they are actually SD. Like I said, we have seen quite a few lately..:confused:. It is like we need an additional check.

Thanks..

[5.7ute]

The easiest way I can think of is to let MIL lamp go off. That way you will at least have had a visual indication on the dash that everything is set as planned.(once you have verified it once in this way you can then turn it off)

[WeathermanShawn]

Good call..Should be the golden rule of SD tuning.

Thanks for the input..

[exploder]

I am happy to say that I went and did a log today and hit 12psi and it felt great. No popping or backfiring and it just pulled strong. I guess the plugs were the culprit all along. Here is a nice log I did and boy does it feel good.

[exploder]

On a side note I have a small A/C problem I'm fighting. When at a stop with the A/c off the car will idle fine, but when I press the a/c button it will flash for a few seconds and the idle will fluctuate up and down some and will then level out and the ac will work fine. I checked the freon and I even evac and recharged the system thinking it was a little low (it wasn't). When traveling down the road with the ac on it does fine and never flashes only when sitting still or coming back down to an idle. What tables need to be looked at? Also I had to do my V/E a little lean so that when the ac is on it is correct, but with the ac is off it wants to ask for 3-4% more fuel. It's like I can tune it for one or the other to get it correct (AC on had to add fuel) (AC off it runs fine but it is a little lean and is always asking for fuel when doing autoVE).