Some Questions on Tuning, mostly LSX...Please be nice and helpful.

[n8dogg]

I apologize ahead of time as I am inexperienced in the tuning world. In fact I have not tuned a car (yet). I am stubborn and will teach my self how to do so by countless hours of reading and question asking. I have done much reading on the forum and books I have purchased and developed a few questions. Some of the questions pertain to LSx motors. So please reply only if you have something productive to offer to this thread. I thank you for your help.

1.) The basis of tuning is to make the engine breath more efficient? The better the burn, the better the explosion, the better the cylinder pressure?

2.) Is there a general table or map you create when tuning and the software automatically adjusts and creates a new map?

3.) In the Corvette, the MAF is directly after the large airbox. The MAF has a straight through design with no honey comb. Does this negatively effect MAF output? Is it beneficial to move it upstream?

4.) Can you disable CAGS and enable fans to come on at earlier temps with EFI Live?

5.) The addition of Headers is rumored to cause a lean mixture. Why is that? What would one do to correct that?

6.) What does the addition of a higher flowing CAI set-up do to the mixture?

7.) Why can't the stock PCM tune compensate effectively for such mods?

Sorry for all the questions. They are probably simple I just need to cover the basics before I can get more technical. Again thanks for the help.

[5.7ute]

A few quick answers.
1 Tuning is about describing the fitted hardware & engine characteristics to the PCM & making them work the most efficiently. Hardware changes (cam, intake ,exhaust etc) are what really makes the engine breathe better, better combustion etc.
2 Read the AutoVE tutorial. This explains maps etc to get the fuelling into line. Spark etc needs other methods.(like using a dyno)
3 Had no experience with corvettes. I prefer maf's as a paperweight but thats just me.
4 Yes
5 Headers can help the cylinder exhaust scavenging leaving more room for good clean airmass. If the PCM doesnt know about this extra airmass it will not inject enough fuel, causing a lean condition. If in closed loop the O2 sensors will trim the fuelling accordingly & you will be back to a good air fuel mixture in no time.
6 A CAI will allow cooler air into the cylinder, once again increasing the airmass.
7 It can to a point. But to get the most benefit a tune is a must. As a general rule the higher the cylinder airmass the less spark that is needed.

[5.7ute]

Oh & welcome to the forum:cheers:

[n8dogg]

Great info, thanks for the help. I will read the Auto tune thread.

[joecar]

Welcome :cheers:

More info, follow the links in my sig, also see my profile page.

[5.7ute]

I should remember that & just send people over to your profile Joe. Some good info in there.

[redhardsupra]

here's my tuning commandments:

Physics is undodgable--don't oversimplify complex issues.
Tune reflects reality--bad data cause bad consequences.
Know your hardware--don't tune around physical problems.
Know your limits--don't lie to the ECU.
Nature has no sharp corners--all transitions are gradual.

everything else pretty much can be mapped onto one of these babies

[Gordy M]

Regarding your #3: GM developed firmware to compensate for the amount of turbulance and bends, etc. for the stock intake system. This firmware was based on the auto meeting the various EPA type regulations around the world. With EFILive, you can move the placement of the MAF because it allows you the means compensate for changes made to your intake path yet maintain a drivable car/truck. The PCM has two govenring bodies in its operation, one is speed density--a fixed set of rules and the other is MAF--a dynamic reaction to a general set of rules.

That being said, many who add turbo/superchargers and many who drag race prefer to run ionly in the speed density mode. Road racers and many who use their cars/trucks as daily drivers/autocrossers/canyon runners prefer the MAF/SD mode, for example, PrattMiller ran dual MAF's on the C5R and now on the C6R Corvettes

Welcome and you will find a wealth of information and talent on this site and most of the learning curve questions can be readily found by asking questions and using the search tab.

[5.7ute]

here's my tuning commandments:

Physics is undodgable--don't oversimplify complex issues.
Tune reflects reality--bad data cause bad consequences.
Know your hardware--don't tune around physical problems.
Know your limits--don't lie to the ECU.
Nature has no sharp corners--all transitions are gradual.

everything else pretty much can be mapped onto one of these babies

Isnt there 5 commandments missing from this post Marcin? LOL.
Extremely valid points though.

[joecar]

here's my tuning commandments:

Physics is undodgable--don't oversimplify complex issues.
Tune reflects reality--bad data cause bad consequences.
Know your hardware--don't tune around physical problems.
Know your limits--don't lie to the ECU.
Nature has no sharp corners--all transitions are gradual.

everything else pretty much can be mapped onto one of these babiesI like those...:cheers:..."if you try to cheat reality, reality will get even". :)

[WeathermanShawn]

I apologize ahead of time as I am inexperienced in the tuning world. In fact I have not tuned a car (yet). I am stubborn and will teach my self how to do so by countless hours of reading and question asking. I have done much reading on the forum and books I have purchased and developed a few questions. Some of the questions pertain to LSx motors. So please reply only if you have something productive to offer to this thread. I thank you for your help.

Welcome to the forum. The traits you have described are common to many tuners..especially the stubborn part..:grin:

1.) The basis of tuning is to make the engine breath more efficient? The better the burn, the better the explosion, the better the cylinder pressure?

Exactly. Thats why I like higher CR engines..

2.) Is there a general table or map you create when tuning and the software automatically adjusts and creates a new map?

Not as easy as you described..but with smoothing features etc., it can almost be done..

3.) In the Corvette, the MAF is directly after the large airbox. The MAF has a straight through design with no honey comb. Does this negatively effect MAF output? Is it beneficial to move it upstream?

Not sure of that exact answer. Some of us are not as anti-MAF as others. It is always a huge debate. I like the hybrid system..MAF and VE Table (blended). In any case, you do need a clean accurate MAF signal..

4.) Can you disable CAGS and enable fans to come on at earlier temps with EFI Live?

Absolutely!

5.) The addition of Headers is rumored to cause a lean mixture. Why is that? What would one do to correct that?

5.7ute's explanation is right on. I'll take the additional 15-25 HP/TQ and nice mellow sound..and just tune back to stoich AFR..

6.) What does the addition of a higher flowing CAI set-up do to the mixture?

If you can really get cooler denser air into engine..more HP/TQ. Sometimes though that additional air can create some turbulence with the MAF. That may relate to your previous question. The MAF can be re-calibrated appropriately though..

7.) Why can't the stock PCM tune compensate effectively for such mods?

Explained..



Sorry for all the questions. They are probably simple I just need to cover the basics before I can get more technical. Again thanks for the help.

Thats a good start. Just keep an open-mind though. Stubborn can be good..closed-minded might make tuning successfully a little more challenging..




Good luck!

[n8dogg]

Thanks for your helpful answers guys. I know some boards are ruthless to the new guys. Can anyone share some links or offer some specific Dos and Donts with tuning? Are there any videos out there that show the ropes of EFI Live? I will be contacting a few tune shops in NY to see if I can spend the day with them and monitor the tuning and hopefully learn a thing or two.

[5.7ute]

Once you have digested the stuff in Joe's profile page, follow the link in Redhardsupra's sig. His blog digs a bit deeper into the airmass models with a fair bit of math. There is also a lot of tools on that site which you will find more than helpful while tuning.
As for do's and dont's
Do
Log, log & log some more before making any changes.
Take all info on the internet for what it is, someones opinion & not fact.(Obviously this is only my opinion, or is it?) This site however is exempt from this most of the time:angel_innocent:
Give the engine what it wants, not what the internet says it needs.
Make small changes until familiar with the system & the required results & you guessed it, log some more & confirm.
Most of all have fun.
Dont's
Dont be afraid to post questions. Better to ask if unsure than destroy a perfectly good engine.
Don't play with timing until the airmass model is accurate (AutoVE, Automaf etc)
Don't work on the airmass model until the injector model is correct. (Or at least as good as you can get it)
Dont advance timing until KR & back off 2 degrees. This is a method, but not the correct method of adjusting timing.

[redhardsupra]

The "log BEFORE making any changes" rule cannot be stressed hard enough. No one does that, and it's the biggest downfall of us as a tuning community. We try to make cars behave after we installed mods, but we don't know what the behavior should look like in the scanner. Then how are you supposed to know what to aim for?!

The Internet is full of shit. Especially when it comes to science, as it's not opinion based. Some people can be more trusted than others. Some people I trust implicitly, but I still ask questions. Others are full of crap no matter how many years they've been trying to 'get it.' The less they explain and the more tell you to do things by fast and hard rules, the more likely they are to be full of shit.

The 'give engine what the engine wants, not what the Internet says' has two hidden gems: Learn to read logs. Be obsessive about it. Learn what it's trying to tell you. That's what tuning is. Pushing buttons and entering numbers is merely a formality. Knowing how to arrive at what numbers, where, and when to enter them is the Real Know-How (TM).

The second gem would be 'have a healthy dose of doubt in you at all times.' The fact that a lot of people repeat something, doesn't mean it's true, it just means that particular myth might have been around for longer than others. Old does not equal correct, and New does not mean better.
Making small changes and logging before and after is absolutely crucial, it is the entire idea of scientific inquiry. Without it it's just bunch of speculations. I remember this as 'one crime at a time' rule.

Asking questions is absolutely crucial. Contrary to popular opinion, there are plenty of stupid questions. Don't ask a question just because it went off in your head. Read first, gather data, maybe even carry out and experiment. Do your homework first, THEN ask. Unless it's potentially dangerous, then you wanna check first. When asking, show what you've tried, found, read, observed. This shows insight, interest, and respect. Questions like this will be answered with a corresponding respect and attention.

Remember that tuning is not a game of magic numbers. Magic numbers don't exist. Don't ask for steps and procedures, ask for derivations and explanations. If people don't want to give you a full answer, challenge them. Argue the math, methodology, assumptions, but don't argue a person. This is a highly evolving knowledge base, what was an established method last week might have been replaced by something better today. Don't be afraid to bring up old posts, they need to be modernized. Asking 'hey, does this still apply or do we know better now?' questions are much needed.

Umm... what else am I forgetting here?

[joecar]

Marcin, good post.

[5.7ute]

Umm... what else am I forgetting here?
How about "don't forget to log":sly:
Great post Marcin.

[n8dogg]

How about "don't forget to log":sly:
Great post Marcin.

I assume to "log" is to record data? I am very familiar with the Tech-2, so would that be like a snap shot?

[DrkPhx]

The "log BEFORE making any changes" rule cannot be stressed hard enough. No one does that, and it's the biggest downfall of us as a tuning community. We try to make cars behave after we installed mods, but we don't know what the behavior should look like in the scanner. Then how are you supposed to know what to aim for?!

The 'give engine what the engine wants, not what the Internet says' has two hidden gems: Learn to read logs. Be obsessive about it. Learn what it's trying to tell you. That's what tuning is. Pushing buttons and entering numbers is merely a formality. Knowing how to arrive at what numbers, where, and when to enter them is the Real Know-How (TM).



That's the best advice for anyone new to EFI and tuning, but really it's the core of true tuning. Log, log and then log again. More importantly learn how to objectively read and understand the logs so you can adjust the parameters correctly by giving the car what it needs and not what you think it wants.

[5.7ute]

I assume to "log" is to record data? I am very familiar with the Tech-2, so would that be like a snap shot?

A log in our terminology is a continuos stream of data collected when driving. You can define what data you want to record up to 24 channels.
The snapshot when a DTC is set is called a freeze frame here.

[WeathermanShawn]

Its great advice guys, but lets be honest. A lot of Marcin's rules are are contrary to human nature. The really smart people who have successfully learned to tune..follow Marcin's Commandments. The other 90% do not. Just look at the majority of threads posted. An incredible majority deal with issues that have been repeated over and over on this forum.

And IMO, as a tuning community we 'enable' people who do not follow the 'Commandments'. As Marcin quips 'We spoon feed them'. We do not enforce what we preach. We tell them what cable length to get for a wideband, what offset, what Trims are about..even if the day before it was addressed.

I joined this forum to be mentally stimulated and challenged. But, even though Marcin's Commandments have drawn great praise, I challenge all forum members to enforce them. Tell people to research before asking 'stupid questions', read, research, etc.

We do not do it. We all want to be liked, so we tell people how to do it, but fail to really challenge them to do it themselves.

Just my opinion fellow tuners. You wanted honesty and independent thinking. That is my take on Marcin's Commandments. They are only great if as a tuning community we enforce them.

Thanks for listening..

[redhardsupra]

Shawn, this is for you:
http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-05-31/

[WeathermanShawn]

That pretty much sums it up Marcin.

Believe me, I have thought of just doing what you have done Marcin. Get my own website, do some research, add some notes, links etc. Then if people want help, they have 'one-stop shopping', so to speak. Its hard to help people and not get burned out in the process. Even this board has lifetime members you never hear from anymore..:confused:

I like your Commandments Marcin. How do you get people to follow them?

[n8dogg]

Guys thanks again for the info and help. I am looking for a challenge. The past 6 months I have felt a very large growth in intelligence, patience and prosperity in my outlook in life. I am a one man Corvette shop and believe it or not, it's become easy for me. I think tuning is a good way to test my abilities and hopefully gain some customers and have some fun. I am up for the challenge. Now I learn best by doing. Before I started my employment where I am now, I never touched a Corvette. I took the plunge with an open mind and today I feel pretty darn good about it. So here is my plan and please chime in with tips or encouragements.

I plan to purchase EFI Live with an LC1 WB02. With this I plan to play around with it on my 04 Z06. I hope to be able to learn how to read the graphs and maps and understand what they mean. I have never touched or seen any tuning software other than the free download of EFI Live. Can one with a decent head on his shoulders learn the Logging and proper adjustments by playing with the software and reading through this forum? I don't plan on doing any real extensive tuning (like from scratch) just minor adjustments to compensate for bolt ons.

[joecar]

Yes, one can learn... all of us here were raw noobies are some time (and all of us find we still have a lot to learn).

Take and read as many logs as you can... use the scantool->tunetool cursor linking feature to see the operating cells in each table.

Read a lot... some people like redhardsupra/Marcin have a mathematical background allowing the derivation of the VE equation(s)... others like 5.7ute/Mick have been experimenting with the injector characteristic tables... other people have other specialties, some people are able to understand an experiment and write it down in a clear manner that others can learn... some of us are DIY'r (able to concentrate on one thing) while others of us have tuning shops (able to see trends/patterns)... [sorry if I didn't mention everyone, you guys all know :)]... read a lot, try some things, and ask questions when not clear...

Like Marcin said, spoon-feed types of questions/answers (blindly following steps, blindly following internet lore) doesn't help someone to learn the what/why/how/if/where of the inner workings...

For example the AutoVE tutorial doesn't mention anything about disabling B4206 (since it was already disabled in the GM F-body files )...
so the people who understand the AutoVE objective will check that B4206 is disabled (or will see the VE going wrong and check for it)...
the people who are just blindly following steps do not check this and then find themselves with an incorrect VE table.

People who take the effort to understand how VE works (we were all noobs, so we read alot and asked alot) will easily see if AutoVE is heading in the right direction or if something is going wrong... same with AutoMAF, idle tuning, transmission tuning, etc...

Same with logged spark timing and dyncylair (airmass)... someone who is not just following steps will see when the timing-airmass correlation is broken...

With tuning it is not sufficient to know how to do something... it requires understanding why and understanding the effect on the system [big picture]...

[ don't get me wrong... steps are important, they are a sequential checklist, but by themselves they are not knowledge ]

This will be your new life, this is all you will think about from now on, and it is difficult material to wrap your mind around, if you're looking for challenges (plural) then you came to the right place... :) ...and you won't regret it at all... ("anyone can do the easy stuff, only hero's can do the hard stuff"... paraphrased from somewhere I have long forgotten, maybe a comic book)... :)

Also keep this in mind: a car must be working properly before it can be tuned... tuning will not make a broken car run better.

$0.02
:)

[joecar]

If you get FlashScan V2 (which costs more) you will find it very versatile, and it can read AFR/lambda/eqr from LC-1 (and other widebands) in serial/digital form.

[joecar]

And...

A credit to all EFILive forum members: everyone here is civilized and able to have a discussion without slugging/thumping/fighting.

Everyone here is very serious about tuning and very helpful toward fellow members in their efforts...:cheers:...an excellent group of people, very high caliber.

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks Joecar:

In the spirit of honesty..all you new tuners. If you want to keep us Veterans around, here are a few suggestions.

1. Get a Wideband. Even if you have to park your car for a month..please do it.

2. Use Spell-checker when posting. I am not trying to be an a.., since I know English is not everyone's first language (I am fluent in several foreign languages also).. I is capitalized..avoid run-on sentences, etc. Remember, the easier it for someone to read a post, the more likely they are to answer.

3. If your topic changes, start a new thread. Nothing worse than 70 posts of a thread that started with subject A, and in now on Z..A new thread makes reading easier.

Again, please take this is in the spirit of friendship. I am not trying to be an a..I am just giving further hints in the spirit of mutual cooperation.

You are more likely to keep the Veteran Tuners around if you add these to Marcin's Commandments.

Thanks again for listening..

[redhardsupra]

This is the perfect example of a lot of things we've mentioned here:
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29780

New guy comes in with some new ideas he read in a _really_ good book. What he's got is not perfect, but he's already thinking on a level that's above 99% of people on forums. Highly regarded veterans jump on him, and tell him to not complicate his life and just go with the 'tried and true' (read: old and busted) methods, preemptively ignoring his work (which btw is good, even though he's missing few pieces). No curiosity, no respect, lack of talent to recognize other talent. Bloody depressing if you ask me.

This just proves that above all, use your brain.

[joecar]

Thanks Joecar:

In the spirit of honesty..all you new tuners. If you want to keep us Veterans around, here are a few suggestions.

1. Get a Wideband. Even if you have to park your car for a month..please do it.

2. Use Spell-checker when posting. I am not trying to be an a.., since I know English is not everyone's first language (I am fluent in several foreign languages also).. I is capitalized..avoid run-on sentences, etc. Remember, the easier it for someone to read a post, the more likely they are to answer.

3. If your topic changes, start a new thread. Nothing worse than 70 posts of a thread that started with subject A, and in now on Z..A new thread makes reading easier.

Again, please take this is in the spirit of friendship. I am not trying to be an a..I am just giving further hints in the spirit of mutual cooperation.

You are more likely to keep the Veteran Tuners around if you add these to Marcin's Commandments.

Thanks again for listening..1. Without a wideband, a tuner is literally blind;

2. Doesn't have to be perfect... short sentences with commas and periods (when in doubt insert a comma or start a new sentence)... I have a lot of trouble reading/comprehending sentences that are more than 2 lines long or that contain more than 3 ideas; the easier a post is to read, the quicker and the response will be and the more accurate the response.
Use of point form is good for a sequence or a list.

3. Yes, start a new topic with a new thread (don't be shy), and give the thread a meaningful topic name (e.g. "Tuning Problem" verus "Can't get VE corrected")... I know, we sometimes hijack a thread...:doh2:

Also, remember the written word masks all emotion... something may sound "evil" but it probably isn't, so don't take it that way... and if you wrote it add a smiley when in doubt... :)

[DrkPhx]

I like your Commandments Marcin. How do you get people to follow them?

The old saying: "You can only lead the horse to water, it's up to them to drink it" applies here. Some will lap it up and others will stare at it with a blank look, others with wait for you to put the water in their mouth for them. Regardless, I think it's still up the "veterans" to lead them to water because everyone was there at one point.

I always recommend reading as much about EFI as possible to help grasp the ever-changing strategies used by the OEM's. One of my fave books is still Corvette Electronic Engine Management. It's somewhat outdated now, but still covers alot of the strategies and theories currently in use including the LS1 PCM.

[redhardsupra]

speaking of hijacking a thread, how about you make a new one on 'how to use forums efficiently?'

back on topic:
Without a WB you are blind. But with a WB you are easily misled ;) Don't trust your sensors implicitly; the ECU surely doesn't, that's why there's all kinds of filters and checks, and boundary conditions.

[WeathermanShawn]

speaking of hijacking a thread, how about you make a new one on 'how to use forums efficiently?'

back on topic:
Without a WB you are blind. But with a WB you are easily misled ;) Don't trust your sensors implicitly; the ECU surely doesn't, that's why there's all kinds of filters and checks, and boundary conditions.

Took your advice..Started new thread...

.http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13793-How-to-use-Forums-Efficiently..Advice-for-All-Tuners-from-Newbies-to-Veterans.

[joecar]

...
Without a WB you are blind. But with a WB you are easily misled ;) Don't trust your sensors implicitly; the ECU surely doesn't, that's why there's all kinds of filters and checks, and boundary conditions.Absolutely, never trust anything, perform sanity checks...

a malfunctioning/uncalibrated wideband is as bad or worse than no wideband...

same goes for the engine sensors that the PCM sees... ask yourself if those pid values make sense.

[WeathermanShawn]

Absolutely, never trust anything, perform sanity checks...

a malfunctioning/uncalibrated wideband is as bad or worse than no wideband...

same goes for the engine sensors that the PCM sees... ask yourself if those pid values make sense.

Agree..good advice..

Joe I started a new thread in the General Section. (no hijack)..If you need to clean it up, feel free. I got a few things out of order. If people are really interested in commenting further, they have a new thread..Shawn..

[BRD-PREY]

3.) Had no experience with corvettes. I prefer maf's as a paperweight but thats just me.


.

I know, I'm warped. I humbly admit that I'm in, at best, you shadow in my internal combustion tuning knowledge.

I find it incredible Ironic and funny that:


After all you failed to mention that the reason:


7.) Why can't the stock PCM tune compensate effectively for such mods?

5.) The addition of Headers is rumored to cause a lean mixture. Why is that? What would one do to correct that?

6.) What does the addition of a higher flowing CAI set-up do to the mixture?


Is because the device it needs to calculate the new VE of the engine mods is sitting on your desk holding the PDF print out of the EFI_LIVE manual.

P.S. I realize that the MAF is sensor and that all sensor are not needed depending on the tuners desires and needs and the intended use of the vehicle. So please no FLAMES, it just made me laugh.

P.S.S. Shawn has me checking my grammer, I even probably put too many comma's in. Beside English was what I skipped so I could hang out in Automotive shop more in H.S.

[5.7ute]

I know, I'm warped. I humbly admit that I'm in, at best, you shadow in my internal combustion tuning knowledge.

I find it incredible Ironic and funny that:


After all you failed to mention that the reason:


7.) Why can't the stock PCM tune compensate effectively for such mods?

5.) The addition of Headers is rumored to cause a lean mixture. Why is that? What would one do to correct that?

6.) What does the addition of a higher flowing CAI set-up do to the mixture?


Is because the device it needs to calculate the new VE of the engine mods is sitting on your desk holding the PDF print out of the EFI_LIVE manual.

P.S. I realize that the MAF is sensor and that all sensor are not needed depending on the tuners desires and needs and the intended use of the vehicle. So please no FLAMES, it just made me laugh.

P.S.S. Shawn has me checking my grammer, I even probably put too many comma's in. Beside English was what I skipped so I could hang out in Automotive shop more in H.S.

That "device" isnt used exclusively until 4000 rpm anyway. So the only way fuelling can be brought back into line is with the o2 sensors.

[BRD-PREY]

See, you took it literally. It was just a funny observation. Not a critical statement on your personal choice of to MAF or NOT to MAF. For that is a question first poised by Shakespeare.

My personal feelings on a MAF is its a sensor and if its accurate, than it provides specific information. How and when you use that information is the important part. MAP changes very little at higher throttle levels and different loads. While on the other hand any number of factors cause actual airflow entering the cylinder at those times to be different. MAF is one way to measure that difference.

Nw look at me, I'm the one that got defensive.

Really, I just thought it was a funny little moment, one that only TUNERS would see irony in and chuckle.

I'm sorry, I meant no insult.
Ed

[5.7ute]

See, you took it literally. It was just a funny observation. Not a critical statement on your personal choice of to MAF or NOT to MAF. For that is a question first poised by Shakespeare.

My personal feelings on a MAF is its a sensor and if its accurate, than it provides specific information. How and when you use that information is the important part. MAP changes very little at higher throttle levels and different loads. While on the other hand any number of factors cause actual airflow entering the cylinder at those times to be different. MAF is one way to measure that difference.

Nw look at me, I'm the one that got defensive.

Really, I just thought it was a funny little moment, one that only TUNERS would see irony in and chuckle.

I'm sorry, I meant no insult.
Ed

I see.:hihi: Must be too early in the morning for me as that one went way over my head.:doh2:
Good observation.

[Boost]

This forum has come a long way since I was asking goofy and simple questions years ago. I am glad and proud to have several real tuners and intelligent minds contribute to the collective knowledge and feed the insatiable questions of the zombies like myself that wish they were tuners but feel that our brains are too stupid to "really" do it. I / we must respect that at one time all the great tuners came from the place we are. This thread has truly motivated me to get serious and dedicated about the slow and never ending but very rewarding process, and re-focused me on what it takes. Truly a slap in the face of those who would say back in the days that EFILive and the like are "limited because they simply tweak factory sensors". From my tiny experience I would say that the "factory sensors" required to comply with today's performance, economy, reliability and diagnostic demands are more than sufficient to support 500-1000 hp daily drivers, except the MAP and wide-band of course. Anyway I am glad to be here and pledge to be more involved in the positive and respectful manner described.

[WeathermanShawn]

Boost, it is good to have your input.

My only comment about this forum is that I do wish from time to time that we could have a lot more comment from the lifetime members (long-standing). I realize many have gone into business, started families etc, or are generally busy. But, there is so much knowledge out there..it is a shame to keep it to oneself.

I guess for me it is just a hobby and always will be. It is easy to 'burn-out', so I recognize there will always be a certain drop-out rate.

Thats my only substantial comment. Glad to see you have been 're-motivated'.

[Boost]

My personal experience with big tuners is that sometimes they try to be a little secretive to protect their knowledge. The fact is, information is power and if you give it away you will be replaced and not needed. However, I can apply this more as a mechanic. Parts changing and factory vehicle diagnosis is a limited knowledge ( I can say this because I turn wrenches for a living and even though one never stops learning, compared to tuning is is minuscule - you will not find many brutes with barely any communication skills making a living tuning...)
However, in my opinion a real good tuner has absolutely no need to hide any info. If you are on to anything more that basics easy to stumble across on the Internet, chances are you are so far ahead and constantly evolving that it is not possible to keep up with you. Having access to info is NOT the only thing needed, you must have a certain type of mind and background, which many of us do not possess. In your own words, there are no magic numbers or procedures. This could explain why this forum is so friendly and helpful. I could barely achieve anything without constant help and have no hope what so ever for my dream future tuning career without a billion zillion trillion "bra-zillion" more help posts. Just my two cents... Thanks again all!

[5.7ute]

I find that 99% of the time, it is questions on this forum that motivates me to learn more. I hate not knowing something & will research & test to the best of my ability to try to find an answer. But with tuning, as we all know there is a steep learning curve & I have a long way to go yet.
There is a running joke here at work that I owe a carton of beer if I use the words "I dont know" more than once a month.(My normal job as a Heavy plant & trailer mechanic & parts sales). I have had to buy a few though.

[Chevy366]

And now for something completely different !
Reading through this post , made me hurt my side , so hilarious , need a pair waders . :hihi:
If anyone has read this far , it is okay to ask a question however you wish , there is no predetermined rules for posting , or at least there should not be , so have fun/learn and ask however you wish . :grin: