Info on New LML engines for 2011

[Redline Motorsports]

I just ordered a new 2011 Duramax so I have been snooping around about the new powerplants. Found some cool info that may be interesting for the diesel guys!

Will EFIL support this controller?

The Emissions Challenge

Meeting these new requirements by engine hardware changes alone has proven to be extremely difficult. However, the advanced aftertreatment technologies of the new Duramax diesel engines (Fig. 1) have shown great effectiveness in dealing with these emissions.


http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/F01%20duramax%20diesel%20X11PT_8C003%5B1%5D.jpg


Fig. 1
Two new Duramax diesel engines were developed to meet the 2010 Federal emission standards for oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and particulate matter (PM). They reduce NOx to 0.2 grams per brake horsepower per hour (g/bhp-hr). The 2007 standard was 1.2 (g/bhp-hr).

Engine Applications

The 6.6L Duramax diesel engine (RPO LGH, VIN code L) is used on 2010 interim and 2011 Express and Savana (GMT 610) vans and 2011 Silverado and Sierra (GMT 900) trucks with RPO ZW9 (chassis cabs or trucks with pickup box delete).

The 6.6L Duramax diesel engine (RPO LML, VIN code 8) is used on 2011 Silverado and Sierra pickup models.

Mechanical Features

These engines use an iron block and aluminum cylinder heads. The bore and stroke are unchanged. The main bearing has been changed to enhance oil film thickness, and oil pump flow is increased.

In the cooling system, the thermostat is equipped with bleed holes to improve bleeding air from the system. The thermostat must be positioned with the bleed holes oriented toward the front of the engine.

An oval air filter is used on vans and a flat panel air filter is used on pickups. Also on pickups, the charge air cooler system has plastic lock rings on the inlet and outlet ducts. Use care when removing the lock ring to avoid damage. Twist the lock ring counterclockwise to release the tabs.

A single variable nozzle turbocharger (VNT) is used. The oil feed has been relocated from the number 4 cam bearing to a dedicated supply port at the left rear of the engine valley. The turbo mounting bosses have been revised. On the LGH engine, one boss was removed and another was added. On the LML engine, one boss was revised and another was added.

The EGR valve and stepper motor are contained in one unit. The position sensor now reflects the true position of the valve -- the valve moves when the stepper motor extends or retracts.

A single EGR cooler is used on the LGH engine for Express and Savana van applications, and a dual cooler is used on the LGH engine for Silverado and Sierra truck applications. The LML engine for the pickups also uses a dual cooler with an EGR cooler bypass controlled by the ECM to prevent coking of the EGR cooler during light load and idling.

Fuel System Features

The fuel system supply side is equipped with a fuel filter vacuum switch (Fig. 2) near the fuel filter. The switch opens if there is a restriction on the supply side, indicated by a vacuum of 13.6 - 15 Hg.


http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/F02_june_2010_techlink.jpg

Fig. 2
The fuel system high pressure side uses a two-chamber pump that generates 200 megaPascals (mPa) of pressure (29,000 psi). Two high pressure lines feed the right fuel rail. A transfer tube carries fuel to the left fuel rail. A Fuel Rail Pressure sensor (FRP) is located on the rear of the left fuel rail.

The high pressure pump is timed so the peak pressure pulses match the injection events. Matching the pressure pulses results in a more constant pressure within the fuel rails. If the pump is removed, it must be retimed when it is installed. There are timing marks on the pump gear and camshaft gear that must be aligned, following SI procedures.

Two Fuel Rail Pressure Regulators (FRPR) are used. FRPR1 is still located on the injection pump as on previous Duramax engines. FRPR2 is located on the front of the left fuel rail. This solenoid is normally open. The ECM supplies pulse width modulation to change the duty cycle of FRPR2 to control the amount of fuel returned to the fuel tank.

The new Duramax engines are equipped with Bosch piezoelectric fuel injectors. These injectors operate a high voltage, indicated by the orange color of the injector harness.

IMPORTANT: Do not make contact with the fuel injector harness, ECM or fuel injectors while the ignition is in the On or Run position. Use certified insulated gloves EL-48286. These Class 0 gloves are rated at 1000 v. Check for functionality and check the expiration date of the gloves.

The ECM supplies high voltage and provides a ground. Voltage is supplied up to 160v at 20 amps, and can peak up to 240 v. This causes the injector to open. The capacitor discharges through an injector for initial opening and holds open with 12 v.

Injectors are grouped into four pairs: 1-4, 6-7, 2-5, and 3-8. If a condition is detected in a group, that group is disabled and a DTC is set.

On the fuel system return side, the return lines are now equipped with snap-in connections. The return side is under pressure.

A pressure retention valve maintains 0.4 to 1.1 mPa of pressure within the return lines to provide proper fuel injector operation.

TIP: Improper injector return line pressure may cause a no-start or performance concern.

If the engine runs out of fuel, or if the fuel system is serviced, the system must be primed. After priming, a feed line from the low pressure side of the pump backfills the injector return lines. The feed line will also backfill if pressure falls below 0.3 mPa in the injector return lines.

Electronic Control Features

The Bosch E86 ECM is larger and has three connectors instead of two. It also controls the HCI (Hydrocarbon Injector), FRPR 2, DEF pump, and DEF injector. The ECM has more than 160 new DTCs and you can use the Tech 2 to communicate with it.

TIP: This ECM will be on parts restriction for six months.

TIP: During programming, the download to the ECM should not be interrupted for the first 10% to 15% of the information transfer, or the ECM may not be recoverable for service.

The Glow Plug Control Module (GPCM) is located on the alternator bracket on the right side of the engine. The GPCM also provides regulated B+ for the NOx sensors and reductant heaters.

Electrical Features
On the pickups, a mega fuse block is part of the battery postive cable assembly. It contains a 175 amp main fuse that protects the UBEC and generator, a 125 amp glow plug control module fuse, and a 175 amp intake air heater fuse.
TIP: On vehicles with two generators, there is a second 175 amp fuse for the additional generator.


Aftertreatment System

The new Duramax diesel engines use an aftertreatment system (Fig. 3) to reduce oxides of nitrogen (NOx) by 90%. This system features a :
A. Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC)
B. DEF injection and mixer
C. Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF)
D. Selective Catalyst Reduction (SCR)
E. Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF)
F. Exhaust cooler

http://www.sandyblogs.com/techlink/F03_june_2010_techlink.jpg
Fig. 3
SCR technology permits NOx reduction to occur in an oxidizing atmosphere. It's called selective because it uses ammonia to reduce NOx levels as a reductant within a catalyst system. The reducing agent is automotive-grade urea -- also known as Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) or Emission Reduction Fluid (ERF) -- that reacts with NOx to convert the pollutants into nitrogen, water and trace amounts of CO2. The urea is quickly hydrolyzed to produce oxidizing ammonia.

Two NOx sensors are used. Each sensor and its associated smart module are permanently connected and are serviced as a unit. Sensor 1 reads engine-out NOx. Sensor 2 reads SCR-out NOx. Sensor information is used by the ECM to adjust DEF dosing to the SCR. Sensor 2 allows the SCR system to detect poor DEF control and a damaged SCR catalyst.

The ECM controls the DEF delivery system. Based on engine NOx emissions level as communicated by calibration tables in the ECM or by the NOx sensor feedback, the ECM will send a command to the DEF injector to dose a given quantity of DEF. The injected DEF mixes with the exhaust gas with the help of a mixer before contacting the SCR. The SCR brick stores the ammonia, and by way of a chemical reaction with the NOx in the exhaust gas, produces nitrogen (N2) and water.

Diesel Particulate Filter

The DPF operates the same as on previous engines to remove diesel particulate matter, or soot, from the exhaust. The regeneration parameters are still based on time, distance, fuel and soot loading, but the algorithms used to determine regeneration now allow more time between generation events.

A Hydrocarbon Injector (HCI) is located on the right side of the engine, with a nozzle located in the exhaust downpipe between the turbo and the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst (DOC). Diesel fuel is injected into the exhaust system ahead of the DOC to raise the temperature of the exhaust for DPF regeneration.

TIP: HCI replaces the late post injections used in previous engines, although late post injections can be used if there's a fault in the HCI system.

HCI is triggered when ECM data indicates that the conditions for regeneration have been met.

[GAMEOVER]

Very Good Info...:thumb_yello:

[GMPX]

I just ordered a new 2011 Duramax so I have been snooping around about the new powerplants. Found some cool info that may be interesting for the diesel guys!

Will EFIL support this controller?
Howard, if you Email me the day you pick it up asking for support I'll stick you on my spam list :grin: , but, it's nice to know you have one on the way.
Of course we intend to support the ECM in the LML, but we don't know how far off that will be, it's a 100% new ECM design so who knows what we are up against. Being Bosch, I think I know exactly what we will be up against :frown:

Two points from your post:

TIP: This ECM will be on parts restriction for six months.
Now this is handy!

TIP: During programming, the download to the ECM should not be interrupted for the first 10% to 15% of the information transfer, or the ECM may not be recoverable for service.
Welcome to 1999 Bosch. :doh:

Cheers,
Ross

[ScarabEpic22]

Uh oh, another Boschism for Ross to tackle!! Bet you're happy to hear that one Ross...

Cant wait to see what this new Dmax brings for aftermarket stuff!

[Tordne]

Oh you should have seen his face light up when it was confirmed to be a Bosch :)

[Redline Motorsports]

Howard, if you Email me the day you pick it up asking for support I'll stick you on my spam list :grin: , but, it's nice to know you have one on the way.
Of course we intend to support the ECM in the LML, but we don't know how far off that will be, it's a 100% new ECM design so who knows what we are up against. Being Bosch, I think I know exactly what we will be up against :frown:

Two points from your post:

TIP: This ECM will be on parts restriction for six months.
Now this is handy!

TIP: During programming, the download to the ECM should not be interrupted for the first 10% to 15% of the information transfer, or the ECM may not be recoverable for service.
Welcome to 1999 Bosch. :doh:

Cheers,
Ross

LOL! Funny! Good thing its going to be a daily driver and not a performance toy!

[ScarabEpic22]

Oh you should have seen his face light up when it was confirmed to be a Bosch :)

Ha bet it was more like a :help::bawl::throw::Throwup: reaction...

[horsehaulin]

I will be grabbing the ECM off the first wrecked LML in the states. Ross, if you want it, let me know.

[DURAtotheMAX]

HEY!!! I called the E86 ECM over two years ago! Do I get a gold star? :D

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2299937&postcount=39

Ben

[GMPX]

We saw that E86 on the 4.5L Duramax at SEMA, figured it got canned with the 4.5L. horsehaulin, we have standing orders too, but if you do find one please let us know.

[killerbee]

"The regeneration parameters are still based on time, distance, fuel and soot loading, but the algorithms used to determine regeneration now allow more time between generation events."
poke, sounds like a recent suggestion made by gun toting bug :)

[jpgmtech]

Starting to see these things trickling into the dealership. I can start sending reads as soon as that becomes available!

[Redline Motorsports]

I got my 2011 last week! Will EFIL read that processor??

[GMPX]

No not yet, we have prepared the software for the day we get an ECM, so we are ready to get in to them.
The next beta release (due for this weekend) will have the LML TCM read ability though, we would sure appreciate someone reading a LML TCM for us, we have one read, but more is better so we can cover off any unknown OS's.

[jpgmtech]

Say the word. There are 3 here that I can read so far, and more arriving as time goes on. I know what I'll be doing on my coffee breaks! ;-)

[maxxflip]

Looking at a 2011....any word yet?

[Tordne]

Trust us, when there is news we'll be letting everyone know :)

[Biodiesel66]

Ross, I'm now ready for LML Beta testing!

[GMPX]

That's nice :grin:
But there is a problem, notice how there is no programmers at all on the market for the LML, GM (Bosch) pretty much locked this thing up and threw away the key. It's certainly going to be a tough one to crack.

[plutonium233]

I've been following the (slow) development for a long time, and I understand there have been major roadblocks in this process. I am planning on buying a 2011 D-max in December, and I want to purchase EFI Live as well. Do you guys anticipate being able to figure this thing out eventually? I am not trying to pester anyone, I just want to get kind of a sit-rep on it just to satisfy my curiosity.

Also, I would offer to help since I'm an electrical engineer with a background in embedded systems; unfortunately, I have too many irons in the fire with work and some other things right now. If there is anything I can do though, just let me know and I'll see if I can do it.

Thanks,
Kyle

[GMPX]

At this point I would say to anyone wanting to buy an LML expecting to modify it like the LMM then think twice.
The EDC17 (which is what this computer is based on) has been causing no end of troubles for European tuners for several years now, some still cannot be tuned 2 years on. To me it seems the EDC17 was designed around stopping anyone tuning them, all the tricks of the trade no longer work.

[killerbee]

Do you know an engineer inside that you can bribe?

[GMPX]

Are you serious killerbee? :shock:
We figured out the new seed/key algo they are using on this ECM pretty fast, but there is problems beyond unlocking the ECM to get access to do much more. I won't elaborate because this is a public forum and everyone will be having the same problem we ran in to. It's the exact same security measures that have been implemented on the European EDC17's for a while that cannot be bypassed.

[killerbee]

Are you serious killerbee? :shock:
.

You are so easy to rattle. :)

[Biodiesel66]

At this point I would say to anyone wanting to buy an LML expecting to modify it like the LMM then think twice.
The EDC17 (which is what this computer is based on) has been causing no end of troubles for European tuners for several years now, some still cannot be tuned 2 years on. To me it seems the EDC17 was designed around stopping anyone tuning them, all the tricks of the trade no longer work.

Would it be possible to data log any of the GM defined PIDs that are set up in V8 for BBL?
You and Paul have a good list started. LML_PIDs txt.

It would be nice to have the V2 connected and data log and look at the V2 screen and see your Boost, Speed, Flow rate, Timing and so on..

Then when Read/Flash capability comes, That's a bonus!

[vortecfcar]

Can we grab the stock file from TIS somehow instead of reading off the ECM?

Nick

[JoshH]

At this point I would say to anyone wanting to buy an LML expecting to modify it like the LMM then think twice.
The EDC17 (which is what this computer is based on) has been causing no end of troubles for European tuners for several years now, some still cannot be tuned 2 years on. To me it seems the EDC17 was designed around stopping anyone tuning them, all the tricks of the trade no longer work.
I remember when you guys said you wouldn't do any tuning for the LBZ either. If anyone can get it done, I know you guys will.

[GMPX]

Can we grab the stock file from TIS somehow instead of reading off the ECM?

Nick
The problem with that Nick is the files 'off' TIS are not plain old files that can be flashed in to the ECM, it would take some messing around to make them in to something EFILive can use, given that, how would GM feel about distributing their TIS files?
I guess what I am trying to say is if it comes to that then pity GM, because nobody will bother tuning the LML, we'll all move on to something more tuning friendly.

[duramaximizer]

What is a TIS? Sorry :(

[GMPX]

TIS (actually TIS2WEB) is the on-line programming system provided by GM, available to anyone for about $1K per year subscription.
It's designed so anyone can reflash controllers with the factory updates aside from dealers, you also need a TechII or Mongoose cable.

The link below shows what the Europeans will be doing for 'some' EDC17's, some of the newer ones cannot even by programmed using this pull it apart method.
http://www.cmdtec.it/prod_bootMEDC17.asp
Or maybe THIS (http://www.dpfsolutions.co.uk/2010/09/edc17-med17-ecu-new-tricore-software-release-puts-strain-on-mobile-ecu-remapping-ecu-reprogramming-via-the-obd-ii-port/) article as well.

And if you think getting these ECM's apart is just a matter of removing a few screws, no sir, the case is weather sealed and is a real nightmare to pull apart.

[vortecfcar]

I've pulled one of those case backs off before, Ross is spot on. That's some nasty weather-tight sealant.

So pretty much a $4100 tuner expense and it requires the ecm to come out, be uncovered and bench flashed any time a change is made. This, of course assuming it works.

I admire their persistence :)

[Cougar281]

The OBD-II Spec REQUIRES the modules to be flash programmable (I'm not sure that the same requirement exists in the European markets).... Might be a stupid question, but how can GM (or any manufacturer) lock it down so we the tuners can't flash them, but they can flash update them? I would think that if they can flash them, either with a TechII (might be depreciated) or MDI, then you should be able to get into them as well.

[GMPX]

But how do you flash them when you don't have a file to flash them with?

[8100 Power]

But how do you flash them when you don't have a file to flash them with?

Are you saying that you can't get the original bin from the ECM to get your starting point?

[GMPX]

Yes, that is one of the main problems that exists, the door has been shut by Bosch, probably on request from GM. The issue there is the Bosch ECM's don't allow bootloaders to be sent and executed in them (like all Delphi ECM's), so we can't even write something to get around it. Not being able to read the European Bosch Diesel computers from the OBD-II port has be a problem for many years, hence the pull apart to read/program method some tuners have to resort to, but even now that doesn't work on some newer models.
You know how EFILive can block all reading on the DSP tunes for LBZ/LMM, well essentially the LML ECM comes from GM like that.

HERE (http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/179611-edc17med17-20tdi-common-rail-1820tsi-tuning-protection-explained/) is a good link from a European tuning company explaining the tuning woes of the EDC17 ECM. If you get to the end of the first post then you are probably thinking we can just use the 'pull apart and probe method' for the LML (worst case), well maybe not, because I am told there is 2010+ models of this ECM that now has that blocked too.

[bballer182]

Yes, that is one of the main problems that exists, the door has been shut by Bosch, probably on request from GM. The issue there is the Bosch ECM's don't allow bootloaders to be sent and executed in them (like all Delphi ECM's), so we can't even write something to get around it. Not being able to read the European Bosch Diesel computers from the OBD-II port has be a problem for many years, hence the pull apart to read/program method some tuners have to resort to, but even now that doesn't work on some newer models.
You know how EFILive can block all reading on the DSP tunes for LBZ/LMM, well essentially the LML ECM comes from GM like that.

HERE (http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/179611-edc17med17-20tdi-common-rail-1820tsi-tuning-protection-explained/) is a good link from a European tuning company explaining the tuning woes of the EDC17 ECM. If you get to the end of the first post then you are probably thinking we can just use the 'pull apart and probe method' for the LML (worst case), well maybe not, because I am told there is 2010+ models of this ECM that now has that blocked too.


All i'm gunna say is wow. Just read that link...

But on the other hand, nothing is un-hackable. it just depends on time and money. And Ross i know you are limited by both. So, whatever it is that is decided for the future of the LML, Good Luck.

[GMPX]

But on the other hand, nothing is un-hackable. it just depends on time and money.
Can you imagine how every Duramax tuner would feel about tuning the LML if it meant pulling the ECM out of the truck, pulling it apart, attaching some wires to the PCB and flashing.......for EVERY tune change. Who would bother when the risk of damaging the ECM is very high and they cannot be obtained from GM as spares.
Whilst we understand that many of our Diesel customers might not be happy to hear all this, it's not 'our' fault GM chose this new controller for the LML.

[JoshH]

I heard Bully Dog has already flashed an LML.

[Cougar281]

But how do you flash them when you don't have a file to flash them with?

I guess that could be an issue :). Might talk to CalEditor... From reading posts (around here, I think), it seems like he's figured out how to get the bins out of TIS2Web in between the download from GM and the flash to controller.


Can you imagine how every Duramax tuner would feel about tuning the LML if it meant pulling the ECM out of the truck, pulling it apart, attaching some wires to the PCB and flashing.......for EVERY tune change. Who would bother when the risk of damaging the ECM is very high and they cannot be obtained from GM as spares.
Whilst we understand that many of our Diesel customers might not be happy to hear all this, it's not 'our' fault GM chose this new controller for the LML.

On that note, what are the odds of you getting the stock bins out of the ECM by opening the ECM and reading them directly, then using that as your base for flashing the ECm through the OBD2 port?

[GMPX]

I heard Bully Dog has already flashed an LML.
Flashing is not the problem, flashing is no different to any other Bosch ECM.


I guess that could be an issue :). Might talk to CalEditor... From reading posts (around here, I think), it seems like he's figured out how to get the bins out of TIS2Web in between the download from GM and the flash to controller.
We can do that too, but that is not the answer for a product like ours.
Opening up ECM's is not something we would consider as the solution for our customers, if that is what you want to do then send an ECM over to one of the European companies and see what they come up with.

[Cougar281]

Opening up ECM's is not something we would consider as the solution for our customers, if that is what you want to do then send an ECM over to one of the European companies and see what they come up with.

Sorry, what I meant was you guys open it up and read it (or get the bin from TIS2WEB) and add that binary to the software to allow for flashing support. Isn't that more or less how you support the A40 TCM?

And don't worry, you won't find me buying anything newer than an 07 Classic :)

[GMPX]

Sorry, what I meant was you guys open it up and read it (or get the bin from TIS2WEB) and add that binary to the software to allow for flashing support.
I think there would be legal issues distributing GM's files, there is other problems associated with that process because TIS2WEB only keeps the latest files, if ever there is an older truck that we never saw a specific segment for then that truck can't be tuned unless it goes to the dealer to get the same update. I think Paul would possibly punch me in the nose if I suggested we need to monitor TIS every day for new updates for every possible LML ECM segment out there and then distribute the results in the software. For the moment GM have won, if you want to let them know, buy a 2011 FORD or Dodge and send GM a letter explaining why.


Isn't that more or less how you support the A40 TCM?
No, the A40 allows reading, just at a very slow rate. The LML is the first ECM to block reading.

[bballer182]

Can you imagine how every Duramax tuner would feel about tuning the LML if it meant pulling the ECM out of the truck, pulling it apart, attaching some wires to the PCB and flashing.......for EVERY tune change. Who would bother when the risk of damaging the ECM is very high and they cannot be obtained from GM as spares.
Whilst we understand that many of our Diesel customers might not be happy to hear all this, it's not 'our' fault GM chose this new controller for the LML.

I absolutely agree, I wouldn't consider that a solution either, and that wasn't a jab BTW. I'm just saying nothing is in-hackable, it's just not cost effective for you guys to spend the time and money to figure it out. Who knows you'd probably have to hire rain man and the biggest super computer to do it all.



And don't worry, you won't find me buying anything newer than an 07 Classic :)

I'm with ya there man! screw the LMM, and LML. The LBZ is the easiest thing for me to tune and work with.

[DURAtotheMAX]

does anyone know what controller Ford is using on the 6.7 powerstroke? IIRC the injection system itself as a whole is basically identical to the LML...same pump, injectors, etc...

But obviously the controller is different?

If its possible to take the ECM apart and change 'something' in the ECM to 'unlock' it (so it could be flashed/read normally with the V2), I wonder if you guys could do that based on a Core exchange program?

IE, you send in your stock LML ECM, pay a couple hundred bucks or something for the 'unlocking/modding service', and then EFILive sends back an ECM thats been taken apart and "unlocked" and can now be flashed normally like the LB7-LMM ECM's????

[8100 Power]

Bullydog cracked the LML... Along with the new Ford.

[GMPX]

IE, you send in your stock LML ECM, pay a couple hundred bucks or something for the 'unlocking/modding service', and then EFILive sends back an ECM thats been taken apart and "unlocked" and can now be flashed normally like the LB7-LMM ECM's????
No chance of that happening.


Bullydog cracked the LML... Along with the new Ford.
Thing is, flashing them is NOT the problem, reading them is.

[8100 Power]

No chance of that happening.


Thing is, flashing them is NOT the problem, reading them is.


Isn't that the problem with the Cummins also? The Smarty doesn't actually read the stock file either I don't believe. Just loads a matching stock file once you choose to return to stock.

[GMPX]

Isn't that the problem with the Cummins also?
We haven't found that to be an issue, they can be read out, Smarty might choose not to read it to save time, or to ensure their tune is not applied over another hand held tuner.

[turbo_bu]

Bullydog cracked the LML... Along with the new Ford.

Guessing that they had to do a pull apart to get the base file out? Thus, they have "cracked" the LML.

Still wondering, if as others had said, that if someone went out and somehow "found" a base tune and sent it to EFI Live, that it would then be supported. All be it with the large ASSUMPTION, that you needed to verify which OS was in there before you simply went off and flashed it.

Can a Tech II tell a guy which OS and cals are in the LML so he could then check and compare to what he wanted to flash in using EFI Live?

[8100 Power]

Guessing that they had to do a pull apart to get the base file out? Thus, they have "cracked" the LML.

Still wondering, if as others had said, that if someone went out and somehow "found" a base tune and sent it to EFI Live, that it would then be supported. All be it with the large ASSUMPTION, that you needed to verify which OS was in there before you simply went off and flashed it.

Can a Tech II tell a guy which OS and cals are in the LML so he could then check and compare to what he wanted to flash in using EFI Live?

I don't know the details how they did it. The "cracked" term is what I used. I probably could of use a more efficient term I guess? Hacked, Reverse Engineered, etc...

For your other points, I sure just hope something is possible.

[turbo_bu]

It sounds like flashing is not the problem. That was why I was hoping that if someone were to go through the trouble to get the necessary file(s) / and / or cal's, that it would then be possible for EFI Live to support it as well.

Guess we will have to wait and see what others are doing on this new front as well.

[GMPX]

That was why I was hoping that if someone were to go through the trouble to get the necessary file(s) / and / or cal's,

Distributing the files is in violation of the on-line TIS website agreement, here's what it says (edited for size).

Prohibited Activities. You agree not to:
Reproduce, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, transmit, transfer, republish, compile or decompile, reverse engineer, distribute, transmit, display, remove or delete the GM Intellectual Property or the content and information provided by GM, its third party licensors and/or other users of ACDelco TDS;

[rcr1978]

So legally the only way to tune our trucks is to read the calibration out of the ecm? That sucks but I guess it makes sense once we buy the truck its our property and we can do what we want and GM's property is there's, but would'nt it be considered your property once its on your computer since afterall you paid to use their TIS web service and your not modifying there property cause your property is on your computer :sly::hihi:

[joecar]

It's still their property regardless...

[DURAtotheMAX]

It seems the new ford 6.7's also use an EDC17...hmmm...I wonder how similar it is to the LML EDC17?

[plutonium233]

:throw::crash::cussing: Finally get to buy a Duramax, and now this mess... As far as tuning is concerned I've got a $60K paperweight. GM does it again...

[DURAtotheMAX]

:throw::crash::cussing: Finally get to buy a Duramax, and now this mess... As far as tuning is concerned I've got a $60K paperweight. GM does it again...

Yeah life sucks doesnt it. Your truck is a piece of crap, I would be feeling the same way right now if I were you. :)







Really??? Get over it. You have a 400hp fully-warrantied badass truck with a chassis/brakes/frame/etc that is 10x better and more advanced than the 2001-2010 trucks. Why is it THAT big a deal that you are going to have to wait a couple months for tuning? Its not like the 2011 LML's are "slow" by any stretch. When tuning does come out and you blow it up, then you'll REALLY have a $60k paper weight because if EFILive goes anywhere near that ECM your warranty will be void faster than you can say oops.

"GM does it again". WTH do you mean GM does it again? Its GM's fault you cant tune the truck up and ask it to do something it wasnt designed to do in the first place?!!???!!???? With all the crapstorm of warranty fraud out their today (from idiots blowing their truck up and then making GM pay for it), the whole point was for them to make the ECM as difficult to crack as possible. Its in their best interest to lock the ECM up tightly. If you cant understand that/why they did that and look at it from GM's point of view than you're ridiculous.

If you want a hotrod/toy go buy a cheap beat-up regular cab LB7 or LLY and build that up.

ben

[ScarabEpic22]

Hmmm, regular cab short bed LLY or LBZ might be nice to have...add a little turbo upgrade, injectors, suspension stuff, and of course EFILive tuning and have a sweet tow truck plus a sleeper DD. Now wheres that $$$ everyone owes me? haha jk

[schwoch1]

Yeah life sucks doesnt it. Your truck is a piece of crap, I would be feeling the same way right now if I were you. :)







Really??? Get over it. You have a 400hp fully-warrantied badass truck with a chassis/brakes/frame/etc that is 10x better and more advanced than the 2001-2010 trucks. Why is it THAT big a deal that you are going to have to wait a couple months for tuning? Its not like the 2011 LML's are "slow" by any stretch. When tuning does come out and you blow it up, then you'll REALLY have a $60k paper weight because if EFILive goes anywhere near that ECM your warranty will be void faster than you can say oops.

"GM does it again". WTH do you mean GM does it again? Its GM's fault you cant tune the truck up and ask it to do something it wasnt designed to do in the first place?!!???!!???? With all the crapstorm of warranty fraud out their today (from idiots blowing their truck up and then making GM pay for it), the whole point was for them to make the ECM as difficult to crack as possible. Its in their best interest to lock the ECM up tightly. If you cant understand that/why they did that and look at it from GM's point of view than you're ridiculous.

If you want a hotrod/toy go buy a cheap beat-up regular cab LB7 or LLY and build that up.

ben
I 100% agree with you. Same shit happens with the Vette and Camaro guys..... Tune it, then blow it up and it is GM's fault?????? I think not. I have one customer who is complaining that he can't get his new LML tuned because he is 'convinced' that his DPF is losing him at least 5 MPG. I asked him where he thinks all 400 HP in his truck come from (which he drives like he stole it), thin air!!!!???? You want HP, it has to come from somewhere!!!

Oh well, off my soapbox....

Mike

[plutonium233]

Guys... really? I didn't mean to piss you all off or anything. I'm not trying to get a truck warrantied for things that happened due to performance mods. I'm not saying the truck sucks or it's slow. In fact, I was mostly being sarcastic BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MY LUCK ALWAYS SEEMS TO GO. I know what GM did and why they did it. It's not the end of the world. Honestly, It really doesn't matter that much because if I break it, I am going to pay for it; always have, always will (unless it is a legitimate warranty item). Please don't bash me for that. It pisses me off to no end to hear this bull crap, just as it does you. Ben, please understand that I don't think like that. If all I was after was performance, I would either build it or buy something that was meant to do it. I know VERY WELL what it takes to get performance as well as the risks. Again, I appologize for pissing you off since I didn't explain that beforehand. :)

[8100 Power]

Guys... really? I didn't mean to piss you all off or anything. I'm not trying to get a truck warrantied for things that happened due to performance mods. I'm not saying the truck sucks or it's slow. In fact, I was mostly being sarcastic BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MY LUCK ALWAYS SEEMS TO GO. I know what GM did and why they did it. It's not the end of the world. Honestly, It really doesn't matter that much because if I break it, I am going to pay for it; always have, always will (unless it is a legitimate warranty item). Please don't bash me for that. It pisses me off to no end to hear this bull crap, just as it does you. Ben, please understand that I don't think like that. If all I was after was performance, I would either build it or buy something that was meant to do it. I know VERY WELL what it takes to get performance as well as the risks. Again, I appologize for pissing you off since I didn't explain that beforehand. :)

Just look over Ben, he goes overboard sometimes..

[GMPX]

Looks like the LML has had an ECM flash update already:

"New software with diagnostic enhancements for DTC P0513".
"New calibration with robustness enhancements for DTCs P0299, P204F, P22A0, P2202, and stuck DEF tank level low messages."

I wonder if GM were kind enough to realise their mistake of locking the ECM's down and open them up again so the update should also say:

"New software to allow the after market to tune our trucks so people will still want to buy them".

[rcr1978]

I wonder if Bully Dog cheated and got the cal files off of gm's site or if they can read it? Supposedly they are tuning them but its not available to the public yet, guess they can be the guinea pigs to see gm comes after them.

[8100 Power]

I wonder if Bully Dog cheated and got the cal files off of gm's site or if they can read it? Supposedly they are tuning them but its not available to the public yet, guess they can be the guinea pigs to see gm comes after them.

They have units out already to the public for BETA testers, and a few have posted already on the Diesel Place about having them. How they did it, who knows, but I sure hope Ross & Paul can figure something out.

[bobo]

H&S Performance 2011 6.6L LML Duramax Straight Pipe

Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skVZ3oRWQXI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The defuel on that truck is nasty, but they got it tuned.

http://www.duramaxforum.com/forum/2011-lml-performance-parts-discussion/81067-lml-ecm-cracked-teaser.html

[Redline Motorsports]

What was the point of the video? To show a smoke show?

[8100 Power]

What was the point of the video? To show a smoke show?

To show the ECM is crackable and it can be made to run without the UREA/DPF in place.

[GMPX]

What was the point of the video? To show a smoke show?
To ensure they now get letters from the EPA's lawyers maybe?
Either way, the ECM can't be read, so they are also probably in breach of GM TIS license agreement by distributing files downloaded from TIS.

[jpgmtech]

ECM's come without a software license agreement, therefore the legal loophole to read and modify those files? On the other hand, GM's TIS website has a software license agreement. So by locking down the ECM, GM now has a way of being able to simply serve anyone who is modifying the ECM's with a lawsuit because GM knows they can only pirate the files from GM TIS. And the EPA would not even have to be involved - those modifying the LML ECM's can be sued on the basis of violating software agreements alone, regardless of all the 'off road' disclaimers they may put in front of the product or videos. I can tell you I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of a highly paid group of GM lawyers...

[8100 Power]

To ensure they now get letters from the EPA's lawyers maybe?
Either way, the ECM can't be read, so they are also probably in breach of GM TIS license agreement by distributing files downloaded from TIS.

No LML EFILive tuning then huh?

[THEFERMANATOR]

I know BULLYDOG came out directly and said they have read the ECM in house, but are storing the base tunes inside the flash unit. So maybe they cracked an ECM open to read the chip directly instead of going through the CAN BUS. H&S said they got them from a database, so who knows.

[TDFDiesel]

We'd all like to see EFI Live available for LML trucks, but it doesn't seem like it will be possible for a little while at least.

[8100 Power]

I know BULLYDOG came out directly and said they have read the ECM in house, but are storing the base tunes inside the flash unit. So maybe they cracked an ECM open to read the chip directly instead of going through the CAN BUS. H&S said they got them from a database, so who knows.

That's why I asked each company that question to see.

Maybe Ross & Paul will give it the Bullydog approach by reading right from the flash and start from that.

[TDFDiesel]

I think the problem is, you would have to read directly from the flash on each ECM before programming it. Tuners aren't going to want to take apart the ECM to make it "flashable".

I think Ben talked about that earlier.

[8100 Power]

I think the problem is, you would have to read directly from the flash on each ECM before programming it. Tuners aren't going to want to take apart the ECM to make it "flashable".

I think Ben talked about that earlier.

You right. Bullydog has a way somehow of using one cal for all. I'm not sure how many different calibrations there are, but if they are somewhat close you could do that? I may be totally off here....

[bobo]

What was the point of the video? To show a smoke show?

I thought it was pretty stupid myself. I guess they think $ now is worth the risk of paying later. It's not going to make waves until they start selling to the public. Then the war will start!

I heard they used a Ford ECM to get it to work.....

[8100 Power]

I thought it was pretty stupid myself. I guess they think $ now is worth the risk of paying later. It's not going to make waves until they start selling to the public. Then the war will start!

I heard they used a Ford ECM to get it to work.....

Paying later? Are you thinking of the EPA or GM coming down on them?

[GMPX]

I know BULLYDOG came out directly and said they have read the ECM in house
I have not seen on the LML ECM if it is possible to read the flash contents from within the CPU using a debug port, they may have removed the debug pads from the PCB. On MANY, if not all European cars using this Bosch ECM, this function has been disabled in the CPU anyway, so it's next to (if not) impossible to get the tune even by pulling apart the ECM. FYI, the flash memory on these ECM's is in the Infineon CPU itself, there is no 'chip on the board' as such.
You would not go to the trouble of doing all that anyway when the files flashed in to the ECM can be downloaded from TIS unencrypted, however, again I make the point, using those files would be a breach of GM's agreement to use that service and you might get yourself in some strife.
I will say good on BullyDog for making it happen and giving LML owners a chance to get a tune. I also feel GM are going to want to know how the ECM was hacked so fast (when Bosch probably told them it couldn't be) and the EPA will then be asking GM why there is videos on YouTube of LML's blowing soot out the exhaust when they supposedly can't be tuned.

[TDFDiesel]

Is GM's TIS system open to anybody who wants a subscription? Could you theoretically just double the price and have every user pay for a subscription to the TIS system? You force the first year and thereafter is on them to renew and maintain the subscription?

[GMPX]

Anyone can sign up to TIS, it's about $1K per year to be able to flash controllers using TechII, Mongoose etc.
But that doesn't give you the rights to all GM's files, see my post here (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13812-Info-on-New-LML-engines-for-2011&p=133591&viewfull=1#post133591):
Reading the contents of an ECM is not in violation of that agreement, using the files TIS downloads to your PC to perform the flash is. Maybe GM don't care, who knows?
But TIS doesn't operate like you might imagine, it's not like a tune library where you can download whatever you want.

Cheers,
Ross

[duramaximizer]

I will say good on BullyDog for making it happen and giving LML owners a chance to get a tune. I also feel GM are going to want to know how the ECM was hacked so fast (when Bosch probably told them it couldn't be) and the EPA will then be asking GM why there is videos on YouTube of LML's blowing soot out the exhaust when they supposedly can't be tuned.

You know it seems to me that someone broke through Microsofts Firewall a number of years ago and saposedly that was impossible. The Titanic wasn't sapose to sink either..... EFI Live wasn't going to support LBZs etc etc. Things change. In a world of performance enthusiasts, I doubt these trucks will ever be unhackable. If it does get to that point there will be a growing number of companies with Edge style boxes or Zeus style ecm's.

Our government is full of a bunch of ignorant politicans looking for a way to line their pockets with money. In the mean time they just keep kicking the can.

[DURAtotheMAX]

I will say good on BullyDog for making it happen and giving LML owners a chance to get a tune. I also feel GM are going to want to know how the ECM was hacked so fast (when Bosch probably told them it couldn't be)

As soon as the BullyDog is all finalized and released, I bet their first customer will be GM powertrain. Just like the first customer of the Suncoast 6-speed conversion kit was Allison. :D

[THEFERMANATOR]

As soon as the BullyDog is all finalized and released, I bet their first customer will be GM powertrain. Just like the first customer of the Suncoast 6-speed conversion kit was Allison. :D

Did that really count as a customer?

[DURAtotheMAX]

Did that really count as a customer?

Technically no...because all allison was doing was buying something back that was already theirs to begin with!

[andrewjamesbond1]

Any updates?

[Tordne]

Nothing has changed with respect to the LML ECM controller. It is simply not able to be read, therefore it is not able to be supported unfortunately. Additionally, we are on the verge of the first Cummins product release so understandably we are focused on that right now.

[andrewjamesbond1]

How close are we to Cummins support :DDDDD????

[8100 Power]

Nothing has changed with respect to the LML ECM controller. It is simply not able to be read, therefore it is not able to be supported unfortunately. Additionally, we are on the verge of the first Cummins product release so understandably we are focused on that right now.

So, looks as if EFILive will never support this then? If so please advise, me and MANY others can't wait around for the LML support. I would like to buy something like a H&S Tuner since I'm driving stock truck if so. Thanks!

[Tordne]

As per the many other posts the issue is not one of apathy or not wanting to support the LML. It is simply that the Bosch ECM has been secured and is not able to be read. Without being able to read the existing calibration it is not possible to extract the calibration to which you would apply your alterations to flash back.

We are aware that there are products that support the LML presently. We believe and expect that these products are using a method which is in violation of GM terms and conditions and we are simply not going there.

If at some stage it becomes apparent how the ECM can be read without violating these conditions then it is more then likely that we will jump to add support for the LML.

Cheers,

[andrewjamesbond1]

"We believe and expect that these products are using a method which is in violation of GM terms and conditions and we are simply not going there."

What terms and conditions are they violating? Just curious as to what they do vs what EFI does?

[Tordne]

All I really say is that as far as we are aware at this point there is only one way to get an LML calibration which could then be modified. Any if that is the mechanism they are using it is in breach of the terms and conditions.

[GMPX]

ACDelco TDS Website
Terms and Conditions of UseProhibited Activities. You agree not to:


Reproduce, copy, modify, adapt, distribute, transmit, transfer, republish, compile or decompile, reverse engineer, distribute, transmit, display, remove or delete the GM Intellectual Property or the content and information provided by GM, its third party licensors and/or other users of ACDelco TDS;
Allow unauthorized disclosure or copying of any part of ACDelco TDS or any information obtained from ACDelco TDS;


Because you as the end user of EFILive currently use our software to read the ECM program from your vehicle, nobody is in breach of this service. If we were to start distributing files downloaded from TIS as the base calibration for LML's we are in breach of the above and will probably get sued. So given the ECM can't be read through the OBD-II port, how do we (or anybody for that matter) legally distribute the files for tuning purposes when the only source I know of to get them is from TIS?

In addition, as I mentioned at some other point in this thread, having our customers open up the ECM to put it in a special boot mode so the file can be read via debug pins (which you would need to solder on to) is not going to happen either, it's a ridiculous method of tuning an ECM, but this is what the Europeans have been doing for a while now with the Bosch ECM's.
http://www.cmdtec.it/prod_bootMEDC17.asp

[GMPX]

I just got my May 2011 copy of Diesel World and there is an article on the Banks Duramax Day at the front, particularly showcasing the LML.
What is interesting is the statement in there that says 'The Duramax V8 diesel is becoming increasingly significant for racing, marine and military applications and is considered to be the "hot rod" of diesel engines'. What they forgot to add at the end of that sentence is...........'until in 2011 some schmuck at GM decided to fit the most evil ECM ever conceived to control it, if only they chose Delphi as a supplier for Diesel ECM's like Mercedes Benz now do', heck, even the new Chevy Cruze diesel is using a Delphi ECM.

[8100 Power]

I just got my May 2011 copy of Diesel World and there is an article on the Banks Duramax Day at the front, particularly showcasing the LML.
What is interesting is the statement in there that says 'The Duramax V8 diesel is becoming increasingly significant for racing, marine and military applications and is considered to be the "hot rod" of diesel engines'. What they forgot to add at the end of that sentence is...........'until in 2011 some schmuck at GM decided to fit the most evil ECM ever conceived to control it, if only they chose Delphi as a supplier for Diesel ECM's like Mercedes Benz now do', heck, even the new Chevy Cruze diesel is using a Delphi ECM.

This is going to be crazy, yes I know: What about having a customer that is willing to send the ECM to you (or someone within the US) to pull these tunes from the ECM to make a base of STOCK Tunes to distrubute with EFILive, after a few months you should have all OS's covered.

[GMPX]

I remember back to the 80's/90's, the elaborate protection schemes that software companies used to try to implement to stop people copying floppy discs, they never worked for more than a month. Then came the Playstation 1 (cracked), Playstation 2 (cracked), Playstation 3......bzzzt, all good things must come to an end when the manufacturers decide they really want to stop something. It's taken 5 years for someone to be able to execute 'non SONY' code on the PS3, and now they are getting sued (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3#Private_key_compromised) by SONY for doing so.
The EDC17 is the Playstation 3 of the tuning world. Your concept is sort of valid and one we thought of too, but in the end from a business perspective, there is a whole lot more out there EFILive could be working on than flogging this dead horse. I understand your persistence to get us tuning these ECM's because you own one, but from a 'business perspective' there far more tempting markets waiting to be tuned and we don't have to run around in circles and jump through hoops to support them.
IMHO GM has just put the Duramax back in the dark ages with this ECM, but they might not even be aware of that (or care), or they are simply constrained by the new emissions laws to do what has been done.

At this point in time there nothing that anyone can say or do to persuade us to change our stance on how we would be supporting the LML. I'll reiterate it once more, unless we can read the ECM via the OBD-II port, it isn't going to happen. We aren't going to be distributing stock files with our software that were not obtained by reading the ECM through the OBD-II port. Flashing the ECM with multiple vehicle models with TIS to cover all OS's and segment variations then reading them out through the CPU's debug port is not in breach of TIS regulations how? You still used TIS for the purpose of reverse engineering or copying. Reading an ECM through the diagnostic port has nothing to do with TIS.
The way EFILive (and other PC based custom tuners operate) is technically very different to any hand held type tuner out there, I think this is the point everyone is missing when they say that H&S or BullyDog can tune them. At minimum you should be thankful that those companies are at least going to be offering 'something' for sale with regards to a better tune.

Sorry, but this whole LML issue is not our fault, if it was just a carry over from the LMM then you know you would be tuning it with EFILive as we speak. This is not EFILive turning it's back on our loyal Duramax users, though I really feel it's being perceived that way.

[andrewjamesbond1]

Thanks for all the info. There is so much to computer engineering that I know nothing of, and give a round of applause to the EFI live crew for all of their accomplishments. I guess I get excited about the LML simply because it is another duramax :)

My next question is why does GM use bosch ecm's on some vehicles and delphi on others? Like my G8 V6 is bosch, but the G8 V8 is delphi (because it is an LS2 engine {i think}) And why did they make the switch between the LLY and LBZ? Is bosch a better ecm than delphi? less expensive? Once again, curiosity :)

[GMPX]

My next question is why does GM use bosch ecm's on some vehicles and delphi on others? Like my G8 V6 is bosch, but the G8 V8 is delphi (because it is an LS2 engine {i think}) And why did they make the switch between the LLY and LBZ? Is bosch a better ecm than delphi? less expensive? Once again, curiosity :)
Only GM could answer those questions, probably look to the accounting department for the answer.

[Nor-Cal Nick]

Subscribed...I have alot of clients asking whats the word. Great info on here, thanks for the info and explanation. Hoop things change, I really like the EFI system.

[LBZoom]

If anyone can do it, I believe the crew at EFI Live can... if it can be engineered, it can be reverse engineered, it just takes more and more time as the designs become more intricate. But I'd rather wait for EFI Live to do it than purchase another company's product. EFI Live for life!

[GMPX]

If anyone can do it, I believe the crew at EFI Live can... if it can be engineered, it can be reverse engineered
Well, to a point this is very true, however Bosch ECM's have always been locked up a little tighter than the Delphi ECM's. This time they just went one step further, it's not like we don't know what we are doing with this and that is why we are stuck. GM/Bosch just removed the ability to read the ECM via the OBD-II port, not much we can do about that, the function is GONE, probably for good on this ECM. Bosch still have a card up their sleeve to lock this ECM down totally so even opening up the ECM won't get you anywhere, maybe that will come on the 2012 model when they see LML's blow soot out the exhaust.

[LBZoom]

Yeah, unfortunately this is the direction of the diesel world.... but as far as reverse engineering I know you guys are doing your best so no rush on my behalf, they're still under warranty for a couple more years anyway, and like you said this may never happen, at least not legally.

Usually when I have an issue with solving a problem I drink some beer, it makes you smarter, after all, it made Bud-Wieser lol :cheers:

[turbo_bu]

I guess I'll ask the stupid question for the day ..... I know that the 2011 HD's are different than the 2010's (both LMM vs. LML and revised Allison 6 speed vs. older model 6 speed) BUT, what are the chances you could take a LMM 6 speed ECM/TCM combo and hook it up to a 2011 LML?

I realize there is more to it than that, (BCM, EBCM, etc...), but has anyone thought through this option?

[andrewjamesbond1]

Never thought of that... and was thinking it would be a sweet way to by pass all of this, but there is a 9th injector in the exhaust manifold for DPF burn so you can run 20% BIO.... I dont think the engine and the LMM computer would be too happy being together lol

[THEFERMANATOR]

I guess I'll ask the stupid question for the day ..... I know that the 2011 HD's are different than the 2010's (both LMM vs. LML and revised Allison 6 speed vs. older model 6 speed) BUT, what are the chances you could take a LMM 6 speed ECM/TCM combo and hook it up to a 2011 LML?

I realize there is more to it than that, (BCM, EBCM, etc...), but has anyone thought through this option?
Don't think that will work either as the LML/LGH uses PIEZO injectors instead of the old on off solonoid type that ran on a flat voltage curve.

[turbo_bu]

Fermanator,

Forgot about the piezo injectors. yeah - scratch that idea.

[Boost]

Looks like the LML has had an ECM flash update already:

"New software with diagnostic enhancements for DTC P0513".
"New calibration with robustness enhancements for DTCs P0299, P204F, P22A0, P2202, and stuck DEF tank level low messages."

I wonder if GM were kind enough to realise their mistake of locking the ECM's down and open them up again so the update should also say:

"New software to allow the after market to tune our trucks so people will still want to buy them".

:hihi::hihi::hihi:

[DURAtotheMAX]

Its too bad, but I think we all just have to take a deep breath and look at it from EFILive's perspective. I respect them for not blindly wading into a "gray area" as far as legality issues with distributing files that arent theirs, or yours!

Really the only "theoretical" way I could see them supporting it is if you sent them YOUR [LML] ECM, they opened it up, read YOUR stock tune out that way, sent the ECM back to you, and sent YOUR tune file back to YOU so then you could modify it with EFILive and reflash it back into the ECM as many times as you want.

From a "legal" standpoint, I dont see a problem with this.

However, from a realistic/logical standpoint, its just not really feasible. Im sure Ross has better things to do (and more exciting things to do) than sit around opening up ECM's and reading them out all day long. :)

But think about it guys....why do we really NEED to custom tune the LML? Its still the exact same 8GF1 architecture that dates back to the 11 year old LB7. IF EFILive supported the LML, its not like its going to be any big surprise what it will [probably] be capable of out of the box stock, not enough has really changed on it to make it more or less capable than any past 01-10 duramax... (~520rwhp stock, once the trans is built)

We already know how to make duramax's fast. If you want an all-out shiny "basically new" race truck that hauls ass, just buy a 2010 LMM and tune it/build it to your hearts content. Aftermarket power increases are going to be no different than the 01-10 dmax's. On the LML, you're still gonna have to build the trans, you're still gonna need a lift pump, you're still gonna need a bigger turbo if you want >550rwhp, and you're still gonna need dual high pressure pumps if you want more than ~650rwhp, and you're still going to need to build the internals if you want more than ~700rwhp.

Does that make sense? And if you do own an LML and just want better fuel economy while making the truck more fun to drive, go buy an H&S or BullyDog tuner and im sure that will be plenty to satisfy you.

And if you say you want the new 2011 chassis and stuff, but want to tune it and make it seriously fast...............just swap in an LMM and the associated harness and ECM. It will be all bolt-in and plug and play with the 2011 body electronics...no different than/just as easy as swapping an LLY into a 2003-2004 LB7 truck, or swapping an LBZ into a 2003-2005 truck. ;)

Ben

[GMPX]

Ben you are correct in many aspects of your post.
For all the enquiries we get on the LML, 95% are "Can I remove the DEF and DPF"? So there is no doubt in my mind what people really want to do and with this particular model, if any company is offering the ability to do that, you might as well book your day in court with the EPA when you release it. If H&S or BullyDog are offering a typical 50HP-80HP update with all emissions still active then you do have an option if you need more power.

[8100 Power]

Ben you are correct in many aspects of your post.
For all the enquiries we get on the LML, 95% are "Can I remove the DEF and DPF"? So there is no doubt in my mind what people really want to do and with this particular model, if any company is offering the ability to do that, you might as well book your day in court with the EPA when you release it. If H&S or BullyDog are offering a typical 50HP-80HP update with all emissions still active then you do have an option if you need more power.

I don't see how it's any different from taking the DPF off? Unless your falling back on the original retrieving stock file issue.

[GMPX]

This thread is becoming really repetitive as far as people not accepting our position and reasoning as to why we've decided to not continue development on the LML, it's now closed.