HELP: I am lost !

[Lennart]

A few days ago I completed the build of my LQ9. Bought the truck with bad motor, completely disassembled. Used to be operated on LPG, I removed that system, though.
Damage was mainly on the intake valve seats, a worn cam bearing and a little wear
on the rear cylinder walls as well as worn rings, causing significant blow-by (plenty of oil inside the intake manifold as well as fouled plugs).
I built the motor with new pistons/rings, oil pump, cam (COMP 54-412-11) and used heads and intake off of another motor (LQ4) with 57k miles.
I did NOT replace the timing chain, which seemed to have a lot of slop (0.5") and reused the lifters.

When starting the engine you can hear some noise mostly on the passenger side (metallic ticking).
I am not sure though, if the noise is related to the fact that the motor only runs on 5 cylinders or if there is something mechanically not sound.
I did a log of the current status, which shows that the pass side O2 sensor does not react like the drivers side and the injector (bank2) is at approx. 50% of what the bank 1 is at.
Would it be possible that due to a bad lifter (or several) the combustion chamber is not filled properly causing this?
The plugs on the pass side are fouled black (but otherwise new - 15min runtime), while the one on the drivers side look like new.

Things I have tried so far:
- changed ignition coils + wires
- used different fuel rail+injectors on pass side
- swapped ECM from other vehicle
- verified injectors (will spray fuel and do tick)
- spark plugs will create a good spark

Using the DVT control I switched the injectors....now here is the strange part:
One time it is injectors 2,6,8 that will not cause any change next time it is 2,4,5,7 the
yet another try 1,2,....
Is there a remote possibility that the order of the injectors gets screwed up???


If you have any further ideas what to do next, please let me know.
All I can think of is to swap O2s from left to right, pull the head(s) and double check
timing chain alignment.

8219

[joecar]

Try swapping O2's and see what happens...

Looking at your log, I see bank2 is getting too much fuel (HO2S21) and the PCM is trying to cut this back (IBPW2)...

when you swap injectors and O2's, did bank2 look the same (about 700+ mV)...?

[Lennart]

Actually I swapped in the rail and injectors from the other motor....the O2 read the same, 700+mV.
If you look at the injector opening, the bank2 is only half as long as the bank1 and still rich.....
leads me to believe that I don't get enough air into the cylinder.

[joecar]

That sounds like what is happening... can you do a compression test...?

[joecar]

Can you tell if the noise on bank2 is from upper or lower...?

[joecar]

COMP 54-412-11 is spec'd at 212/218 114 so it shouldn't cause PTV problems, right...?

Dots lined up, right...?

Pushrod length is preloading lifters to an acceptable range, right...?

Rockers are torqued down correctly (both lobes on base circle), right...?

[Lennart]

Tried a compression test today, had to find out though that I needed the hose with a valve to the pressure gauge (used the one from the leak-down tester).
I did torque the rockers as directed turning the crank one cylinder at a time. Did not check pushrod length but I did observe the slight preload on the lifters.
Dots lined up.....well I have thought about that, but wouldn't that cause the same issues on all cylinders? Did not check PTV clearance, if I pull the head I will, though.
Everone recommends to install new lifters but how does a motor react to bad lifters? Is it even possible that a lifter will not pump up with sufficient oil pressure present?
Could a lifter be worn to a point that oil pressure will not pump up the lifter? How much lift will I still get without being pumped up?
I get about 40psi oil pressure, which should be fine. Is there any way I don't get the same oil pressure on the pass side?
Assembly error??

Thanks,
Lennart

[joecar]

Remove valve covers, then with engine running you should see oil pumping out of pushrods onto rockers.

[Chuck L.]

How long did the injectors that U R using, sit B4 U started the engine?? How were they stored prior to you using them?
A VERY COMMON problem that I find when cleaning injs is, those that have set for extended periods w/ gas in them, or ones that have been exposed to open air w/ fuel left in them, will not work. I find them stuck shut,[no flow at all], slow to react to pulse command, and have a poor pattern.
Many sets I clean, are out of engines from the local junk yard, and have the above problems.
This is a foto of a 95# delphi inj that was still running, but had "issues". It, and it's 5 brothers are JUNK!

[Lennart]

Chuck,
this is an interesting thought, all injectors I ran were stored approx 12-15 months.
I looked at the spray pattern of one rail, looked OK to me.... still could be waay off.
I was able to see a mist cloud of approx 3-4" during cranking.

//Lennart

[Chuck L.]

Wouldn't hurt to have them cleaned and flow checked.
Have you cleaned and verified the condition of the harness, pcm plugs, etc??

[dfe1]

From your log, it's apparent that something is rotten in Denmark-- which isn't all that far from Germany. First issue-- O2 sensor voltage is consistently at zero. It should be around 450 mv which is bias voltage and start moving once the sensor warm up. Either the sensors are dead or they aren't wired correctly. Another question is how you're getting the long term fuel trims indicated when the O2 sensors consistently read zero. The PCM switches to closed loop at frame 220, fuel trims start to get reasonable around frame 340, yet O2 voltages never change. Also LTFT trim changes from excessively positive at the beginning of the log to excessively negative towards the end. Either some condition has changed, or the PCM is searching for a new starting point.

Second issue, MAP is way too high, which indicates a vacuum leak or improper cam phasing, or may be the result of your engine running on fewer than 8 cylinders. I think if you can be reasonably certain that all 8 injectors are firing and you can get the O2 sensors working, you'll be able to solve the rest of he issues.

[Chuck L.]

Yep! That's exactly what I thot!:grin:
Lennart, Dave and I mess around w/ cars and EFILIVE. [we live close to 1 another.]
He's outstanding in his field, and I'm just standing...:hihi:
Actually, I looked at that log, and sent it to Dave, as I was wondering about the sensors being "funky"..
You mentioned that the timing chain was loose, like a 1/2" of slop. You also mentioned a noise. I'm wondering if that slop is enough to allow the chain to hit the cover, and possibly alter valve timing enought to cause a tune issue???
I just went back and reread your first post.
Are the O2 sensors the same sensors that were in the failed engine? If so, they may well be failed, [as Dave mentioned], due to contamination with hi oil useage. I don't know for sure if propane exposure would have had an effect.
Is this engine in a vehicle it was in when you bought it, or is it a conversion into another chassis??

[joecar]

I reread the first post... I agree with ChuckL and dfe1... there's a lot of things going on.

[dfe1]

I reread the first post... I agree with ChuckL and dfe1... there's a lot of things going on.
It's obviously a case of lost bolts.

[joecar]

It's obviously a case of lost bolts.lol, I may expand into sorting lost nuts, washers, springs, checkballs also... :)

[dfe1]

lol, I may expand into sorting lost nuts, washers, springs, checkballs also... :)
Sounds like a noble occupation- especially if you include wingnuts. The world has been in need of a wingnut sorter for many years.

[Lennart]

Here is a log after I switched the O2s from left to right. From I can tell the O2s are working all right.
8234

Screws are a good point, missing a few and have some left over, not knowing where they need to go :angel_innocent: still missing the one water passage blockoff, too.
To answer a few questions:
In my logs the HO2S11 and HO2S12 are not constantly at 0,0V but I did notice that it displays correctly on my netbook (which I used for the logs) with Build 110
but is all 0,0V on my other computer with Build 117.
The sensors are from the same engine that failed, but after switching them left to right both have proven to at least try to keep bank1 in CL.

In the meantime I also pulled the front cover of the second motor (57k miles) and the timing chain has a very similar slop as my motor, which is at 42k miles.
The fact that the MAP is way too high leads me to believe that not all cylinders are filled
properly i.e. valves not opening and/or closing as they should.

Here is a video I did last night with the valve cover off. At some point you can hear the
ticking rather well. Also you can see that the motor is running anything but smooth.

http://chevytrucks.de/images/VIDEO0001.3gp

There is a small puddle of oil in the rocker arms, some have more others less.
Since I have nothing as a reference I am not sure if this condition is OK or not.

[Lennart]

Hi Chuck,
I did check the wiring twice now as the LPG conversion was tapped into the harness and I had to solder everything back together.
It was my first and obvious point to double check as it has been worked on previously.
I am thinking of pulling a fuel rail with injectors from a known well running engine and try that.

Thanks,
Lennart

[joecar]

Oil should be flowing up the pushrods and spilling onto the rockers... I did not see any signs of this in the video.

[Chuck L.]

Oil should be flowing up the pushrods and spilling onto the rockers... I did not see any signs of this in the video.

yep.
when this engine was rebuilt, did you install the barbell in the rear oil galley??
Are you SURE:
A. The o'ring on the pickup tube is not damaged?
B. Are you sure you used the correct ring? [They are application sensitive.]

[Lennart]

yep.
when this engine was rebuilt, did you install the barbell in the rear oil galley??
Are you SURE:
A. The o'ring on the pickup tube is not damaged?
B. Are you sure you used the correct ring? [They are application sensitive.]

O-ring is not damaged as I installed it with the engine on the stand upside down.
I did install the o-ring that came with the pump, which is the wrong one !
Looked up the part numbers I need to use the 12584922 and the one that came with the pump is 12557752.
I used the LS6 pump.
On the other hand I do have 40psi of oil pressure after startup, increasing as revs go up (never went above 2000rpm so far).
Is there any possibility oil flow is restricted to the pass side?

[ChipsByAl]

Does this engine still have the catalytic converters? I have had one side very restricted causing this condition. Do an exhaust backpressure test from each of the front O2 sensors and see if one side is clogged.
Al

[joecar]

O-ring is not damaged as I installed it with the engine on the stand upside down.
I did install the o-ring that came with the pump, which is the wrong one !
Looked up the part numbers I need to use the 12584922 and the one that came with the pump is 12557752.
I used the LS6 pump.
On the other hand I do have 40psi of oil pressure after startup, increasing as revs go up (never went above 2000rpm so far).
Is there any possibility oil flow is restricted to the pass side?Lennart, look at attached diagram...

The colored areas are potential leak points (internal to engine)... also the lifters are potential leak points.

Lifters and pushrods can also possibly be clogged/dirty.

The lifters allow oil to travel up the pushrods and to arrive at the rockers...

[Lennart]

Thanks for the diagram, good to have.
This weekend I will be double checking the lifters, compare oil flow on a known good motor and do a compression test.
In the meantime I have ordered a set new lifters and timing chain along with head gaskets.
The catalytic converters are still in the car, what kind of back pressure is normal?

EDIT: Never mind found it, the max. pressure is 0.5 psi (3.4kPa)

[joecar]

On the bank that makes no noise (driver side), do you see oil coming out at the top of the pushrods...?

[Lennart]

Does this engine still have the catalytic converters? I have had one side very restricted causing this condition. Do an exhaust backpressure test from each of the front O2 sensors and see if one side is clogged.
Al

This is it !
Openend up the exhaust at the manifold to see if the converter is plugged. Engine ran a lot smoother but the noise made it difficult to detect any other sounds.
Anyway, tightened the cat back on, same as before. Then pulled the cats --no fun--
and saw this:

8268

[joecar]

Which side was that...?

[Lennart]

That was the passenger side. The drivers side seems to be OK, not sure if I should replace both cats or just one.

[Lennart]

Her is a pic of the plugs, passenger side is top.



8272

[Lennart]

After cleaning out the cats and reinstallalation the eninge is finally running. Not very smooth, I guess the cam needs a little higher idle and the fueling needs to be adjusted.
There is only a slight irregular ticking sound possibly from the exhaust.
Now the next issue came up.....no reverse

[joecar]

Hi Lennart,

Take some logs to see why the passenger side spark plugs are fouled.

So now the noise has gone away...?

What about getting oil to the rockers...?

No reverse, first check:
- fluid level and condition,
- DTC's.

Is no reverse on a 4L60E...? If yes, then check the following:
Do you get manual 1st...?
If no, then the low/reverse clutch is not being applied.
If yes, then the reverse input clutch is not being applied.
(see the range chart in the 4L60E Reference Material thread).

[Lennart]

I am sure the plugs are looking better now, the pic was taken before I fixed the cat.
The noise is gone. We compared the sound to an all stock 06 5.3L, the 5.3L is running a little smoother and quieter.
I got the feeling that the missing material in the cat might cause some funny noises... exhaust is louder for sure!

As far as the tranny is concerned, I will look at it later. There are not DTCs present.

To summarize:
Vehicle was driven by first owner on LPG with a tune and all O2 OBD messages disabled.
Somehow they killed the kat, engine ran poor.
Took it to the dealer....who could not diagnose the problem.
Dealer decides to tear the engine apart, but did not find anything significantly wrong.
Previous owner decides to sell the vehicle with the engine in pieces....dealer probably quoted the
owner a new one.....
I buy the vehicle with engine all taken apart inside vehicle (Escalade).
Repair the engine as mentioned in first post.....

so how likely is it that the transmission is also shot ???!!!

[Lennart]

Update:
The tranny is fine now, needed 4 qts. of oil. Dealer must have drained the tranny before taking out the engine.
Now there are only two issues remaining:
- a ticking sound (simlar to a Diesel) probably from the valvetrain
- lopey/ unstable idle with misfires (as it sounds)
...and more or less unrelated: the steering wheel is 90° turned when going strait.

[Lennart]

Here is a short clip of the Escalade in idle. Sound is quite mean w/o the cc's. Exhaust is otherwise stock. Will have to wait with the Flowmaster I already got until
the new cc's are in.


http://www.myvideo.de/watch/7628092

[Lennart]

Any idea why the idle is as it is? This is the stock tune with the cam.
Cam?
8361

[joecar]

Update:
The tranny is fine now, needed 4 qts. of oil. Dealer must have drained the tranny before taking out the engine.
Now there are only two issues remaining:
- a ticking sound (simlar to a Diesel) probably from the valvetrain
- lopey/ unstable idle with misfires (as it sounds)
...and more or less unrelated: the steering wheel is 90° turned when going strait.Cool, that worked out good...:cheers:

Are you seeing oil coming from the top of the pushrods...?
Are the lifters taking up all the lash (i.e. are pushrods of correct length)...?

Perform crank angle sensor error (CASE) relearn from the DVT tab in the scantool (this calibrates the misfire algorithm).
Check the misfire pids for clues as to which cylinders.
Check for correct spark using this (http://www.tooltopia.com/kd-tools-2756.aspx).
Check that injectors are spraying.
Check compression/leakdown.

[Lennart]

At idle there is not that much oil visible but as soon as you rev it a little you get oil all over the exhaust manifold.
need to check if this is the case on ALL cylinders, though.
I did retorque the rocker arms, it took about 1.5 turns to get to the 22 ft./lbs. from touching the pushrod.
I did the CASE relearn.
Will have to log for misfire assuming it will not trigger a DTC, right, as there were no DTCs.
Did a compression test, all cylinders were in the range of 10 to 11 bar .... whatever that is in psi.

[Lennart]

What is this spark tester? Is that more than a spark plug with a ground clip?

[joecar]

What is this spark tester? Is that more than a spark plug with a ground clip?It is exactly a spark plug with a ground clip, and a large gap between the electrodes... a properly functioning coil/wire will create a big strong spark that easily jumps across that wide gap... a questionable coil will create a weak spark that may or may not jump that gap (if it does it will look very weak, almost invisible).

[Chuck L.]

10-11 bar is 147 to 161 psi. That's fine. Rocker torque is OK. Oil flow sounds good.

[Slowrc]

Check to make sure that the front o2 harnesses are not switched left to right making the pcm dump fuel to a bank IT sees as being way to lean and pulling fuel from a bank that it sees as to rich. just a thought. My .02 deposited :)