how do i get my car not to idle so high

[BadLSX]

i just reinstalled a tune that i had done on my car last year, but wasnt happy with, mainly due to how high the car would idle when i first started it & also when i come to a stop. when i pull up to a stop sign & have the clutch in, the car will idle around 12-1300 rpm for a few seconds before settling down to normal idle(850-900 or so). also if i'm sitting at a red light facing down hill, if i just want to drift down the hill the car will also idle up & stay there until i come to a complete stop. i would like to make the car not do this anymore. what do i need to adjust or do to get it to idle like i want? i can try to post the tune if anybody needs to see it. thanks.

[joecar]

Have a look at this: idle tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside).

And please do post your tune if that's ok with you, and some log files.

:)

[BadLSX]

how do i post my tune? i gotta be missing something because i cant get it to show up

[joecar]

In the reply, Go Advanced, Manage Attachments, + Add Files, Select Files,

then browse to your file, select it, click Open,

then Upload Files, Done,

then write something in the reply,

then Submit Reply.

[BadLSX]

8410

here is the tune i'm currently running

[WeathermanShawn]

LSX:

To put it nicely, a lot of your Airflow parameters are unusual (looks like you have modified quite a few).

1. Lower Idle to 800.
2. Redo Desired Airflow. Those numbers look very high.
3. Thats a lot of airflow in the TC at lower Rpms. Take a look at the Idle Tutorial for Tips...http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside
4. Double-check your TC Decay Rates.
5. Double-check your TF Airflow and Decay Rates.

I have yet to see a car that will not benefit from following the Idle Tutorial exactly as it is written. You basically have way too much air in every Idle Parameter in your tune. Especially with your TC Decay rate set at 0. It will never decay with your settings.

I would just start over. I mean that respectfully. Looks like you did some changes (history) in your tune that might have gotten your Idle airflow off..Follow the Idle Tutorial. It actually works.

Good luck..

[joecar]

BadLSX, what mods on your car...?

[BadLSX]

the car has 1 7/8" headers, TSP MS-4 239/242 @ .050, ford 30# injectors, underdrive pulley, ported throttle body, racetronix fuel pump & hotwire kit.

[BadLSX]

ok, i took the tune i posted above & changed them to stock. i copied & pasted them from a stock 02 M6 tune from holdencrazy. i then loaded this back into my car & now it doesn't idle up like it originally did, however, the car does try to stall from time to time. i've read & read & now i think i'm more confused about this than ever. should i just start with a stock tune with modified IFR for my 30# SVO injectors? as far as the RAFIG, i've read about that on here for hours & still don't understand what i need to do. i can't figure out what all i need to log to do it or even where some of the stuff is located in the Scan tool. i want to be able to tune this car because i'm tired of paying these "professional" tuners from reputable shops for less than stellar results. they show me dyno numbers & say it drives as good as it can for the mods & kinda talk their way around question i would ask. the tune i posted above was a dynotune from a very highly recommended tuner & i have another tune from another reputable tuner that left me a little disappointed.

[WeathermanShawn]

BadLSX:

I know you are probably frustrated right now. Idle is pretty hard to nail down.

Normally injector fueling must be done first. I am not the expert on the SVO Injectors, so I will that alone for now.

Normally with a cam that big it just wants a little more desired airflow. So, try this. In your stock tune just add 2 g/s of air to Table B4307. Leave all the other Airflow Parameters alone for now.

When it gets confusing, I always just try one thing at a time. Break it down into steps, or it will get overwhelming. I would try that first and report back.

[BadLSX]

ok, should i do this with a completely stock tune? if so can i just copy my IFR from one of my other tunes to the stock file? the IFR is the one thing that does seem to be consistent between these tunes i have had done on the car.

[WeathermanShawn]

We will have to get one of the Injector experts on to directly answer your Fueling question.

Yes, I was talking about adding 1-2 g/s to Desired Airflow on a stock 02 M6.

My cam has 'only' 10 degrees of overlap (228/232 110 +2)..but it Idles perfectly with the Table attached below. Of course I have done fueling and spark, but Desired Airflow is a 'biggie' to getting a cam to idle..

[BadLSX]

ok, thank you. i think my biggest fear with all of this is screwing something up & having something bad happen to the motor. i've got more money & time in this car than i care to remember & just don't want to hurt the motor. i'll try doing what you said Shawn, but my only concern is the bigger injectors dumping way too much fuel in with the stock IFR tables.

[WeathermanShawn]

I understand.

You can always PM Joecar, 5.7ute..many experts on injectors on this forum. Granted they may all be busy, but if & when they get the time they will help you out.

I am still on stock 28's, but altitude is helping me out. So, I may be doing injectors myself in the near future. So, I would just do a 'shout-out' or PM one of them...

[BadLSX]

I understand.

You can always PM Joecar, 5.7ute..many experts on injectors on this forum. Granted they may all be busy, but if & when they get the time they will help you out.

I am still on stock 28's, but altitude is helping me out. So, I may be doing injectors myself in the near future. So, I would just do a 'shout-out' or PM one of them...


ok, thanks Shawn. the injectors seem to complicate this whole process for me. i wish i would have kept the stock ones in it, but went with the bigger ones because the guy who originally dynotuned the car said the stock injectors would be my limiting factor. thanks again, i really appreciate the help

[joecar]

Ok, lets go one step at a time...

Read these first:
showthread.php?7866-What-to-Tune-First (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7866-What-to-Tune-First)
showthread.php?4821-Calculating-Injector-Flow-rate (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4821-Calculating-Injector-Flow-rate)

First step is to accurately measure rail pressure (under load) and calculate the IFR using the spreadsheet and the rated flowrate/pressure of your injectors.



How do you measure pressure at load...?

If your engine doesn't spin up to easy (LS1/derivatives spin up too easy), then a throttle snap (very quickly to WOT and back) is sufficient while observing that a pressure gauge in the fuel rail shows no deviation.

Could measure rail pressure on a dyno at full load thru-out the rpm range.

Could tape up a pressure gauge to the windshield and go for a drive (drag strip or freeway on-ramp) letting passenger observe gauge.

Could install a pressure sendor/sensor and wire it to FlashScan's analog input (there's a tutorial for this).

If pressure drops under load, then either there is some problem in the fuel system (restriction, filter, regulator, pump, wiring) or the fuel system doesn't have sufficient capacity.
Also, try to get as much data as you can for those injectors so you can adjust the injector "characterization" tables also (i.e. the other injectors tables e.g. Small Pulse Adjust); some of this data is not necessarily available/accessible, but try to get it... the objective is to accurately model your injectors.

[joecar]

When calculating IFR using the spreadsheet:
- goto the EFILive tab,
- insert injector's rated flowrate (30 lb/hr),
- insert rated pressure (43.5 psi),
- insert your measured rail pressure (should be 58 +/-1 psi),
- save the spreadsheet file (for future reference).

Then look at the generated table... use the column that has the same units as B4001 as viewed by you using the tunetool (e.g. g/s or lb/hr); copy that column and paste it into B4001.

[BadLSX]

8438

joecar, i read everything you posted for me & also did as you said for the injector spreadsheet. it turns out that what i did with the injector spreadsheet is a little different than what was in my previous tunes. i did copy & paste it into B4001. i also made some changes to the stock tune to compensate for my different gearing & some stuff like that. i belive i'm ready to give the AutoVE a try. i'm attaching the new tune that i'm starting from stock for anybody to look at & see if it looks ok to try running in the car.

[WeathermanShawn]

Bad:

Hopefully the Injector Update will work for you.

I found an old tune from SSpdDmon (the Author of EFILive's Idle Tuning Tutorial). It has almost of the Idle Correction, Learning Airflow, Spark, TC, TF, and Follower Airflow Rates that he addresses in the Tutorial.

I never think it is wise to ever 'plagiarize' a tune, but if you get stuck you could probably benefit from a lot of his techniques. Like I said it is a tune I copied from a few years ago, so if all else fails it is a start.

Good luck..

[BadLSX]

thanks Weatherman. i hate asking all these dumb questions, but i guess i have to start somewhere. when i read some of the material on here, i just end up getting myself completely lost, especially with all the different terminology. hopefully i can get somewhere with tuning this car, its just gonna take me a lot of time to do so. i'm hoping that it will be tuned right since i'm doing it & next time it shouldnt take me so long

[joecar]

Make sure your wideband has done a heater and free air calibration (if this is applicable to your wideband)... and sanity check it to make sure it's working right.

When you setup for AutoVE make sure that WOT/PE will be sufficiently rich (I make PE B3618 equal to the high MAP value in the CFOL B3605 table).

Also make sure B4206 is disabled (it should be already).

When logging for AutoVE, obtain better data by applying throttle in a progressive/smooth manner (less data gets filtered out by the BEN filter)... use brakes and hills to increase load, use higher gears at lower/mid rpms... don't look at laptop/FlashScan, pay attention to road, drive safe.

[5.7ute]

Bad, when doing AutoVE with unknown injectors add Manvac, battery volts, GM.DYNCYLAIR & IBPW1 or 2 to your main AutoVE pids if possible.(keep channel count under 24) At a minimum add at least IBPW1 or 2 & GM.DYNCYLAIR. This when added to the log will help filter out some potential problem areas. (min Injector pulse limits for example)

[BadLSX]

joecar, i just did a calibration last week on my LC1. i did do AutoVE, however i didn't see 5.7Utes post about adding a couple PIDs until i returned from a drive. should i get rid of the log i just did & start over with the additional PIDs? hitting some of the cell values is hard to do, let alone 50 times. lol the car did run extremely rich throughout the entire RPM range & it's not happy about idling at all unless you are giving it gas. i gotta figure out how to do the filter now from the AutoVE. what all am i trying to filter out? i'm definitely having a easier time learning today, than i have in the past. i wanna thank all of you guys again for your help.

[WeathermanShawn]

Bad:

Is there a MAF physically present on this car? Do you have still have your narrowbands?

AUTOVE is a great tuning tool, but I will warn you it is hard to do if you are new at this. All techniques involve a lot of filtering, driving with a steady throttle etc. Open-loop may ultimately be superior, but I have seen newer tuners struggle for months to get it down.

If you are rich everywhere, getting proper Idle will be virtually impossible. I say attach a Tune & Log, and lets see where you are.

[BadLSX]

here is a log of the AutoVE8441

here is the tune set up for AutoVE

[BadLSX]

the car does still have a MAF & the narrowbands are in place Weatherman

[WeathermanShawn]

Wow, yea it is extremely rich..:confused:.

Well assuming the Injector calibration went O.K., I guess you just have to follow the AUTOVE utilizing BENS and Filters, and do it methodically.

One thing that really concerns me, is the following attachment. It appears that at Idle as your car begins to stall (too much fuel), and you slam the Throttle open..you are getting massive KR.

I can not say I have ever seen KR at Idle, but I am assuming it is valid. Unless the over-fueling is causing a KR response.

I will look at more later, but that is my first look..

[5.7ute]

BadLSX, I wouldnt be disregarding the log since you didnt have those pids present. They are mainly for preventing some issues at idle & low airflow prevelant with cams & larger than factory injectors.
What happens is at x airmass the pcm calculates you need y amount of fuel for the commanded AFR. Using IFR (+ some offset etc)the pcm then calculates how long the injector needs to be open for. Since a cam reduces the cylinder airmass at low engine speeds the injector pulsewidth is substantially lower than standard. Add to this the increased flow rate of the bigger injectors & the pulsewidth must be shortened even further to inject y amount of fuel.
Once a minimum pulse limit is hit, the pcm wont allow the injector to be open any less than this amount, and no change to the VE table etc will change this. So in effect you will keep dropping VE & the wideband will keep reporting rich. By logging IBPW you will be able to filter out any data where the IBPW is equal to {B4003} minimum pulse width + {B3701} battery voltage offset & prevent this from occuring.

[BadLSX]

what should my next step be then? would i be better off starting with a tune that was already done on the car? this way the car will idle & won't need the VE table bumped as much making the car run so rich.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, you may need more help than my assistance. I am more proficient with Closed-Loop Tuning (O2's) and I use the MAF.

Having said that, I think you can successfully tune your car via AUTOVE, but like I said just go one step at a time.

If your AFRBENS are accurate, the following attachment is what you need to multiply the VE Table by. I.E, you have about 40% too much fuel everywhere. I am still worried it is the Injectors, but you could always apply the BENS to the VE Table..per the AUTOVE Tutorial..

[5.7ute]

Badlsx. Pull 10% out of your VE table in the 400 & 800 rpm row. 20% from 1200-3600 & 10% from 4000 up.
This will get you a lot closer for starters.

[BadLSX]

Badlsx. Pull 10% out of your VE table in the 400 & 800 rpm row. 20% from 1200-3600 & 10% from 4000 up.
This will get you a lot closer for starters.

ok, should i do this with the tune i'm using for the AutoVE that i just posted a little bit ago. if so, i'll do that tonight & then try it in the car again tomorrow with the added PIDs you suggested i use

[5.7ute]

The tune you took that last log you posted with. It should put you within 5-10 percent in most areas.

[BadLSX]

The tune you took that last log you posted with. It should put you within 5-10 percent in most areas.

ok, i lowered it just as you said to do & i'll try again tomorrow. is the log i posted no longer any good to use? i'm just curious how bad i did for never doing any of this before.

[WeathermanShawn]

Always keep your first log. Its good to compare.

I still do not understand how you got 15 degrees of KR at Idle. Lifter chatter? Did it make 'funny' sounds as it bogged and stalled?

[BadLSX]

Always keep your first log. Its good to compare.

I still do not understand how you got 15 degrees of KR at Idle. Lifter chatter? Did it make 'funny' sounds as it bogged and stalled?

yeah, it was making all types of noises that i never heard it make before. it kinda freaked me out a bit.

[WeathermanShawn]

Hear any loud booms?

[5.7ute]

I agree with keeping all your logs. It is always good to look back & compare.
It appears that the initial 14% increase that the AutoVE tutorial recommends was not necessary for your tune. That increase is what was causing the car to be way too rich. You may actually be better off by reducing the whole VE table by this amount instead of the changes I said earlier. This is because there may be too much difference between the cells that the pcm's interpolation will make dialling in too difficult.
What I do is use cruise control to keep the data central in the rpm band. For example for the first section set cruise at 1200rpm, then 1600 rpm & so on. This prevents a cell that is too far out from having too much influence on the gathered data. It limits the map areas that you can get data for but you can then start working outwards from there.

[joecar]

yeah, it was making all types of noises that i never heard it make before. it kinda freaked me out a bit.Can you describe them at all...?

[joecar]

BadLSX,

Are you logging using BBL or laptop...?

Either way, get rid of the analog wideband pids AFR_LC1x and BEN_LC1x since they confuse the situation.

With serial wideband connection, the pids are WO2AFR1, WO2LAM1, WO2EQR1, WO2ST1, CALC.BEN1.

[BadLSX]

I didn't hear any boom or popping. It sounded a lot like detonation & it only did it when I would try to let the car idle. I'm logging using my laptop so I will get rid of the PIDs I don't need

[BadLSX]

ok, i got all the additional PIDs selected & removed the analog PIDs that weren't needed. i'm gonna go try this again in a few minutes, hopefully with better results. i'm starting to actually get into this now, must be because i'm seeing how the car reacts to different things. lol

[WeathermanShawn]

Let us know. Thats a pretty big cam. Were all the PTC clearances checked?

I would hate to have a Piston and Valve clanking..That would cause KR at Idle!

[BadLSX]

Weatherman, i did check the Piston to Valve clearance when i installed the cam. it's tight, but TSP said it was ok. i asked them what they typically saw before i told them what i had. when i was logging today, i did notice some KR but nothing like yesterday. it was mainly when i would pull out somewhere too it seemed. i'll post todays log up

[WeathermanShawn]

Definitely looks a lot better..especially your overall fueling.

Still some work to do. Just keep following the AUTOVE, applying Filters, Bens, technique, etc. The one thing I did notice is that your WOT is now a little lean. That happens a lot with a cam. You can still have too much fuel down low, and not enough up high.

Much better though..Oh, how was your Idle?

[BadLSX]

thanks for the good words Weatherman. i used a stock 02 VE map & decreased it by 10% up to, i believe, the 12 or 1600 rpm area. i figured that would help the idle, which it did. now, do i keep repeating the AutoVE logging till i get most of the cells hit? i still gotta figure out the filter thing too & what all data i need to filter. i'm hopeful that 5.7Ute will chime in about the injectors & how everything looks as far as they go. also should i maybe bump up the VE table that i'm using in the upper RPM rang to keep from going lean? i think an oil change is gonna be in order over the weekend, after having the engine running so rich

[WeathermanShawn]

Yea, I am pretty impressed by the improvement. Open-Loop can be challenging, but you made a lot of progress in one log.

Just download the AUTOVE Tutorial and read it over and over. I think 5.7ute has commented before on his technique when logging Open-Loop. He uses cruise control, gentle throttle transients, etc.

Concentrate on the BENS. In most cases you just 'Paste' and 'Multiply' to your VE Table directly (after filtering, etc). The following is your unfiltered BENS from you last log. 1.09 (upper Rpms) means you need 9% more fuel to hit your Commanded.

Just keep reading and logging. Your on your way now..

[5.7ute]

From a quick look the injectors arent causing any issues yet. That may change once you get actual to commanded to converge but we will take this one step at a time. Filter out the transients with your BEN filter & apply to your tune. Then relog & post the new log with the modified tune file.
To dial in the idle cells you need to isolate these with a filter from the rest & apply this correction to your idle cells. Something like TP=0 and VSS=0.

[5.7ute]

WeathermanShawn. Might be worth checking your filter.

[BadLSX]

ok, now the whole filter thing has me stumped. is there something that i missed in the tutorial? also what am i copying & pasting once i do figure the filter stuff out? maybe it's some of the terminology thats confusing me. lol

[5.7ute]

ok, now the whole filter thing has me stumped. is there something that i missed in the tutorial?

What bit has you stumped? Do you know how to apply & edit a filter?

[BadLSX]

What bit has you stumped? Do you know how to apply & edit a filter?

i don't know anything about how to apply or edit a filter, sorry. is there something i can read or anything? what am i going to be filtering?

[5.7ute]

When viewing a map, look just to the left of the A,B,C,D,E,F,G map designations. You will see what looks like a small square airfilter, & one with the filter & a hand. When you put your cursor over these it will tell you that the filter on its own applies or removes the filter. The one with a hand is where you choose or edit what filter is to be applied.
Click on edit filter settings& choose the Base efficiency numerator filter. Click OK then apply the filter with the other tab. It will ask if you want the log file replotted if over 3000 frames click yes & you are good to go.

[BadLSX]

Ok, thank you 5.7Ute! I will try that tomorrow as soon as I get home from work. Hopefully I'm making some progress with all of this. Do I keep doing the AutoVe & logging until I do hit all the cells. I wish I didn't take the cruise control out of the car now, I can see how it would help with the process

[WeathermanShawn]

5.7ute, I want to make sure I used the right BEN. Did I goof up his Filter?

[5.7ute]

Ok, thank you 5.7Ute! I will try that tomorrow as soon as I get home from work. Hopefully I'm making some progress with all of this. Do I keep doing the AutoVe & logging until I do hit all the cells. I wish I didn't take the cruise control out of the car now, I can see how it would help with the process

You wont get them all. Chances are if you dont hit them while doing autoVE you will never hit them anyway. So a calculated Guess following the trends will see you right. If you post up the tune fil you used in that log I will apply the filtered data to it so you can compare what you come up with.

[5.7ute]

5.7ute, I want to make sure I used the right BEN. Did I goof up his Filter?

The data in that screenshot looks completely different to what I get. It looks like it is showing the data my filter rejects. Can you attach your filter file so I can have a look?

[joecar]

See circled in red (regarding posts #52, 53).

You can add conditions to a filter to include or exclude data in particular ranges of any of the logged pids.

[5.7ute]

See circled in red (regarding post #53).
Thanks Joe.
Dial up makes it too time consuming to try & post screenshots.

[WeathermanShawn]

Hey Mick:

Yea, I should have clarified. For Data, I picked BEN Factor, Bank 1 Serial Wideband LS1 Style (factor). I hid empty cells then than 10.

Mick, I did not apply any filters to his data. I was not sure what Filters he uses, so I left it unfiltered. If I did not say it in the post, I should have. I am sure filtering would make a world of difference.

Did I pick the right Data for the MAP? Sometimes, I look at these real quick, so my apologies if I made a mistake. Just let me know.

Thanks..

[5.7ute]

Something funny is going on here. I have exactly the same parameters set up for my map & it comes up different. Its like the cruise areas in your map have come up in the low map areas, whereas the high map cells under wot are still at 100kpa. So it shouldnt be a units issue.
Very weird. Joe & Badlsx. When set up with a map with data unfiltered whos screenshot does it copy? I am on build 114 here.

[5.7ute]

Shawn. You have TP for your column not MAP(kpa). No wonder they looked different.

[joecar]

Thanks Joe.
Dial up makes it too time consuming to try & post screenshots.No problem, you say it, I'll add pics.

[joecar]

Shawn. You have TP for your column not MAP(kpa). No wonder they looked different.Ah, he has TP instead of MAP... I thought I was needing another sanity check... :doh2:

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks Mick:

You have a good eye. I corrected my previous screen-shot. The following attachment I believe now matches yours (MAP). I'll have to be more careful..I cross check a lot of my data with TP..thanks for catching it.

OP, a good example that even us more 'experienced' tuners make mistakes. In any case, your fueling does look better in the majority of your VE Table (still too rich though)..WOT needs some work.

Hopefully you will figure out filters etc..

Thanks guys!

[BadLSX]

what exactly do i have to select in the filter setup? no matter what i select or do, i can't get it.

[BadLSX]

5.7Ute, here is the tune i am logging, you asked about it on page 6.

[5.7ute]

Click on the edit filter properties tab.(the one Joe circled earlier) & build a filter like the screenshot attached here. This is very basic but will get you started.
I could attach the filter file for you, but we will try & show you how to make them first as it will be better in the long run.

[5.7ute]

This is how your tune file would look with the basic BEN filter & Idle areas adjusted. I have not smoothed the surrounding cells as yet but I will have a bit of time later if necessary.

[BadLSX]

i followed your screenshot & i still must be doing something wrong. i can't even figure out how to post a screenshot of what i'm coming up with. i like that you guys are walking me through this, so that i figure it out & learn how to do it. i've spent most of the afternoon trying to figure it out & have to be missing something.

[5.7ute]

Here it is with a quick clean up.

[WeathermanShawn]

Bad..

Are you following the AUTOVE Tutorial. It and the Scan Tool have instructions on Filtering.

We have to teach you how to use the Tutorial(s) along with specialized step-by step instructions. I am being nice here..but this is the basics. Where in the Tutorial are you looking at?

[BadLSX]

i'm following the AutoVE tutorial & have all the tutorials printed out. i followed the AutoVE tutorial up to page 11 with the Update Calibrations. i've been stumped since i hit the whole filter thing. like i said, i've been trying it all afternoon & i have to have something messed up somewhere or something.

[5.7ute]

In BadLSX's defence it took me a long time to get filtering right. The tutorial is extremely basic & does not go into how. It just gives a screenshot & says build this.
Bad, when you go to edit filter properties you will get a window like my screenshot. In the name window there is a selection arrow that should bring up a precanned BEN filter.
To make a new filter select the new tab & enter the new filters name.
In filter control select whether you want to include or exclude the data pertaining to the filter. To add filter parameters click on the add button at the bottom right of the window.
With the item highlighted in the bottom window select the parameter you want to link the data to. For example absolute throttle position. The select filter type, in this case changing more than. In the window next to that 5% and the next window per 100ms. Make sure for this filter that join using is set to "OR" for all the parameters.

[BadLSX]

thanks 5.7Ute, i think i got somewhere with it that time. now when i click on the average button it all it shows are zeros. i'm also trying to find how to hide the cells with less than 50 (as the tutorial says to do). this part of the tutorial seems pretty vague as far as the filters go.

[5.7ute]

The hide cells is part of the map not the filters. Go to edit map properties(CTRL+ ENTER) Click on the empty tab & set this to the amount you want. (I only use 10 as 50 is just too hard to get in all the cells) to the right of the edit map properties tab is a picture of a grid with a red cross through it. Click this to hide or view the "empty" cells.

[5.7ute]

With it only showing zeroes you must not have the right pids selected for the map data. Either you havent selected the BEN pid (Being a calculated pid this can be added after the fact with no problems) or you have the wrong pid selected with the data. (DATA should be BEN factor 1 serial wideband)

[BadLSX]

i had the wrong Data selected. i accidently bumped it last night & thought i had put it back to the correct one. ok, now i think i'm getting somewhere.

the average of these results are what i copy with labels, if i'm reading this correctly. thank you so much. how do i refine these, just keep repeating the process now?

[5.7ute]

Copy with labels the average results, then paste & multiply with labels to your tune. Save, reflash into your pcm & log again. Post up your next log with the tune file so we can ensure the injectors are not going to become an issue at small PW.

[BadLSX]

ok, i will do more of that over the weekend. it's supposed to rain some tonight & tomorrow, so i can't really drive the car as its on Hoosier QTPs. i really want to thank you, WeathermanShawn & Joecar. i'll start a new thread with the new log as soon as i can drive the car without getting stuck in the rain. i really like learning this stuff, i'm just not real computer literate with a lot of it

[5.7ute]

No worries.

[WeathermanShawn]

Sorry, Bad was not trying to put you down.

One of these days we will get a dozen volunteers to tidy up all the Tutorials.

Your right, it can be confusing. Sorry.

5.7ute, you are doing a good job Tutoring. Thanks..

[5.7ute]

You are right about the tutorials Shawn. I had a go a while ago to fix up the AutoVE tutorial but couldnt get it to read right. (The COS side of it with no 1.0 EQ cells etc)
I might have a go at finishing it later & post it up for others to comment on, modify etc.

[BadLSX]

Weatherman, i didn't take it as you putting me down at all. i'm sure i'm frustrating everybody here with my lack of knowledge about tuning at this point. i'm kind of frustrated myself, partly because i don't really know anything yet, partly because the tuning that i have paid professionals to do resulted in less than great results & the fact that i have paid both of them $500 each to do so.

[5.7ute]

At least you are on your way now BadLSX.
It can get extremely frustrating trying to diagnose,help or get assistance over the net with different time zones, work commitments etc. The only way we can combat this is to put as much detail as possible in every post.

[SSpdDmon]

Bad:

Hopefully the Injector Update will work for you.

I found an old tune from SSpdDmon (the Author of EFILive's Idle Tuning Tutorial). It has almost of the Idle Correction, Learning Airflow, Spark, TC, TF, and Follower Airflow Rates that he addresses in the Tutorial.

I never think it is wise to ever 'plagiarize' a tune, but if you get stuck you could probably benefit from a lot of his techniques. Like I said it is a tune I copied from a few years ago, so if all else fails it is a start.

Good luck..

What the hell, man?!



LOL j/k ;)



Bad - I'm curious, does your dyno graph have a nice little dip in the curve @ ~4K rpm?

[WeathermanShawn]

Jeff, its the price of being famous!

What do they say..plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery..oh, no thats imitation. :grin:.

OP, hopefully you are making some progress..

[BadLSX]

At least you are on your way now BadLSX.
It can get extremely frustrating trying to diagnose,help or get assistance over the net with different time zones, work commitments etc. The only way we can combat this is to put as much detail as possible in every post.

i'll try to go into more detail with as much as i can or know, that might help a little more in the future.

[BadLSX]

Bad - I'm curious, does your dyno graph have a nice little dip in the curve @ ~4K rpm?

after just digging out the dyno sheet, i noticed that there is a break in the graph from about 3900-4100 rpm. it looks like it might have been a lost signal, but it looks like there may have been a little dip in there just as the graph picks up again at 4100 rpm. just curious, why do you ask & how did you know?

[BadLSX]

Weatherman, i hope to be making progress as soon as i can get back to working on the tune. it rained yesterday so i didnt get to do much besides read & i'm on my way to help a friend put a roof on his house today, so i'm kind of screwed for any sort of work on the tuning today & tomorrow now.

[WeathermanShawn]

I think SSpdDmon is teasing us.

My car had a dip in TQ/HP right around 4k (a lot of LSX's do). Since I had a copy of his tune from several years back..I think that was his way of teasing us about 'copying' his tune.

In all honesty, I did utilize his Idle and Learning Airflows almost verbatim. Since then I have done my own Desired Airflow, Spark, and TC. I still use most of his TF settings.

That 4K dip is fairly normal...

[joecar]

Post pics of dyno sheets.

[WeathermanShawn]

My 'dip' was very subtle. Shows up a little better when I plot it on Excel..

[BadLSX]

Post pics of dyno sheets.

i'll try to post mine up tomorrow. i hope to be able to get some logging in also.

[5.7ute]

That dip is very consistant with long tube 4 into 1 headers & appears anywhere between 3-4000 rpm. I have only seen the one sheet with try Y's (4 into2 into1)and the dip doesnt appear as noticable.

[SSpdDmon]

$5 says the dip is timing related. I took a peak at his tune and the high spark table dropped right where I asked about the dip. Bump up the timing to 27* flat @ WOT from 3k on up and the dip magicly disappears. Seen it with mine on the dyno...

Graph is my '01, which was ported 241's and a 232/238 cam.

[WeathermanShawn]

Could be Jeff.

I have read in some articles about the nature of exhaust pulses and how the intake and exhaust flow 'equalizes' in those RPM's. You could probably address it with timing.

Looking at a recent log, 3000-4000 Rpm's at WOT will take anywhere from .8 -2.2 sec depending on gear and traction. Hopefully the real-life effect is minimal.

Interesting phenomena though.

[BadLSX]

i did some more logging today & wanted to share it with you guys to check out. i have to apply it to my tune yet though. i did set the fans to come on earlier now & i copied the B4307 table from the dynotune i had done this spring, which idled great, but kept going lean in the lower rpms. that tuner spent a fair amount of time getting the idle sorted out, but i don't know how he overlooked the lean condition when he had the car for 4 days to "street tune" it after we did the dyno pulls. the change i made to B4307 seemingly had no change on the idle, so back to the stock parameters i go.

[WeathermanShawn]

Bad:

It must all be in the Injector(s) and method of tuning.

I copied a log I did this morning. Stock Injectors Closed-Loop. It must be hard to control Idle fueling with those Injectors. Look at the IBPW1 differences.

So what are your conclusions?

[BadLSX]

So what are your conclusions?

that i really don't know what i'm looking at. lol i do like how your IBPW is smooth all the way across that screenshot, but i really dont understand what the numbers mean yet. what do i do about how my IBPW is all jagged & the numbers being so much different?

[5.7ute]

Bad, B4307 has some other effects on the cylinder airmass calculation that I havent nutted out yet. I was meant to do some testing for Marcin (RedHardSupra) so we could clear it up but havent got around to getting the roadrunner back in the car & a definitive testing procedure worked out.
I wont make any assumptions as yet but your fuelling in the main areas is coming into line nicely. There are obviously a few cells that are out still but the more logs you do the better it will get.
Can you post thetune you done that log with?

[5.7ute]

that i really don't know what i'm looking at. lol i do like how your IBPW is smooth all the way across that screenshot, but i really dont understand what the numbers mean yet. what do i do about how my IBPW is all jagged & the numbers being so much different?
Nothing yet IMO. Lets get your average fuelling closer & work from there.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well Bad here is my take..

It is a function of running Closed-Loop. I do not want to get into a battle of tuning merits, but I am tuning around stoich AFR (~14.63). Unless you run a COS, when you run Open-Loop you have no Trimming functions. It great if you are drag racing just on weekends or know what you are doing.

The Injectors are staying steady because AFR is staying steady. Thats a benefit of Closed-Loop. Perhaps it is a few cells off, but Open-Loop Tuning is not easy.

I would be curious to see if your narrowbands are capable of Trimming. Otherwise, you need to keep lowering your Idle VE values until Commanded hit Actual.

Just an opinion, but that is why your posted, right?

Good luck..

[5.7ute]

In closed loop your IBPW will oscillate as the pcm switches around stoich. You would need to graph it fine to see clearly but it does occur.
IMO Bad's IBPW oscillates much worse because the idle is not stable. An unstable idle has the calculated cylinder airmass fluctuating along with RPM & Map. Add to this an inaccurate VE table throwing the mixture out & you have an engine chasing its tail trying to idle.
Basically Bad, IBPW is the amount of time the injector is told to open by the PCM. I have posted a few times on my findings in this forum, but the basics are.
The pcm calculates how much air is in the cylinder, either with the VE table or maf, depending on what mode you are in.(Also with the desired airflow values at idle) Then the pcm looks up what AFR you are commanding to see what the injected fuelmass should be. Then it looks up the IFR to calculate how long the injector needs to be open to inject that fuelmass. The injector being a mechanical device has a delay in opening & closing which must be taken into account, so the value in B3701 (referenced to voltage & manvac) is added to the calculated value. This final value is IBPW.

[WeathermanShawn]

Mick, it is more of a general observation that a great majority of tunes & Logs posted that have fueling problems, are those novice tuners attempting a non-COS Open Loop.

Ironically, 99% of the time they are commanding stoich in their VE Table. I am just trying to be a lone voice on this forum and point out that a lot of these beginners would fare better starting with Closed-Loop. They are making it harder on themselves trying to chase a 'wandering' VE Table. They do not understand how Idle along with temperature variation can make Open-Loop at times difficult. Why not avail themselves of Trims?

I think this tuner could benefit from Closed-Loop or a least a Semi-Open Loop tune..(IMO)..

Bad, which ever way you precede best of luck.

[BadLSX]

ok, i'm posting the tune i'm working with after todays logging of the AutoVE. i did change the desired airflow back to the stock 02 settings because i saw no change in the car's idle characteristics. it's pretty crazy how everything kind of falls into its own place, but is all connected at the same time. i'm assuming i should keep doing the AutoVE logging until i get it dialed in better. should i maybe lower the Main VE table some in the lower areas then to maybe help the car want to idle a little better? i really wish that i still had the stock injectors as it seems it would be a little easier to work with. when i had Doc build me a mail-order tune last year, he said it was gonna be very difficult for me to learn to tune this car, both because i'm a beginner with it & that the car being so modified now. i'm keeping my head up & trying to grasp every bit of information that i can.

[BadLSX]

Shawn, how do i go about using the Trims to my advantage? would i want to be using STFT or LTFT? would it be possible for me to learn both ways or would i probably confuse myself more than i am now? i know that everybody has an individual style of doing tuning, with no right or wrong way of doing it. at the point i'm at, i don't know any more about one way vs another way.

[WeathermanShawn]

Personally, I think if you download the AUTOVE and the CALC.VE Tutorial and read each cover-cover, you will see more similarities than differences. I have just seem so many people struggle with constructing a VE Table. Utilizing Closed-Loop is just adding another tool. It is really neither one vs the other.

It is hard to convince people..but check out the threads. Commanded AFR vs Actual is probably the single biggest problem people encounter.

My rule of thumb is that if it takes you more than two weeks to tune using one method..why not try another. If two weeks from now, closed-loop does not even work, then maybe it is time to take the car to a professional tuner.

Read the following Tutorial:http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE Tuning Tutorial.pdf. (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf)

If that does not make sense, or you try for two weeks and are still lost..report back.

It is your decision. Your VE Table is much better than it was, but have you been at it for more than two weeks yet?

Good luck Bad..

[5.7ute]

Mick, it is more of a general observation that a great majority of tunes & Logs posted that have fueling problems, are those novice tuners attempting a non-COS Open Loop.

Ironically, 99% of the time they are commanding stoich in their VE Table. I am just trying to be a lone voice on this forum and point out that a lot of these beginners would fare better starting with Closed-Loop. They are making it harder on themselves trying to chase a 'wandering' VE Table. They do not understand how Idle along with temperature variation can make Open-Loop at times difficult. Why not avail themselves of Trims?

I think this tuner could benefit from Closed-Loop or a least a Semi-Open Loop tune..(IMO)..

Bad, which ever way you precede best of luck.

Shawn. I am not disagreeing with you though I am sure it reads that way. But even if the individual is going to go to the closed loop method you use the tune needs to be "close" open loop first. The reason being is if the tune is too far out that the o2 sensors may not switch properly to begin with. (I have come upon this previously)
Also depending on the cam, having trims take effect at idle will really screw things up since the overlap sends unburnt oxygen into the exhaust, giving a false lean.
Personally I tune open loop with a COS, then use STFT in most but the idle cells to keep things in check. But again this is just my preference.
Bad, your idle is reading rich according to your wideband so lower those cells to bring it into line. No matter what method you use this will be a necessity.
When it is close use the BIDI controls to find what AFR & spark timing your engine likes at idle. (commanded & actual)

[5.7ute]

Bad, did you have a look at the tune in post 71? It might be a better starting point since most of the VE table is cleaned up & wont have as much of an interpolation error..

[BadLSX]

i've read the tutorials & read them again & again. yeah, i've been chasing this tuning stuff pretty hard in the last couple weeks with reading whatever i can find on here that pertains to what i need to know, but i really only get to mess with the car for maybe an hour, two at the most, every couple days & thats only if it doesn't rain. i've had the car to 2 professional tuners. here how the "professional" tunes went: the first tuner did the first tuning on the car in about 2 hours, seemed like he had better things to do, told me to buy EFILive & start learning & that he would help me learn over the phone or email & all that fun stuff. i tried repeatedly to get back in contact with him & haven't heard from him since. at the time i had nitrous on my car with all the timing retards & everything & he didn't care about how they worked or care to even try to really tune for the nitrous. he just ripped a bunch of timing out of the car & added i believe 5% more fuel the whole way through the table. since then i've sold the nitrous off the car, because it wasn't really tuned for it & didn't want to hurt my engine.

the second tuner which had my car late this spring, fixed just about everything the original tuner did that i wasn't happy about, but he had the car for 4 days & never noticed a lean condition the car has up to about 1600 rpms. the car also seems more jerky at highway speeds in 6th gear. i've emailed him & he was working on the lean condition from some of the logs i sent him, but then he said he didn't understand why the car was going lean & i haven't heard from him in a month.

if you can recommend me a tuner that is going to actually "tune" this car, i'm all ears. i was going to trailer the car to Florida for Doc to tune it, but towing from Pennsylvania to Florida is unfortunately not a option any time in the near future.

i hope you don't take any of this the wrong way, but maybe some of the back story as to why i'm here posting & asking questions will now make more sense. i'm just a newbie with no tuning experience looking to tune my car because it seems the professionals i pay good money to do so, can't do it.

[BadLSX]

Bad, did you have a look at the tune in post 71? It might be a better starting point since most of the VE table is cleaned up & wont have as much of an interpolation error..

i'll definitely check that out. is it something that i can load into the car to use as a base? i have another tune that may also be of some use as a base. i'll post it in a minute.

[BadLSX]

this is the most recent dyno tune. will some of it be of any use to me? also is it a SD tune or MAF, as i'm not really sure & never got a straight answer when i asked the guy who did it.

[5.7ute]

i'll definitely check that out. is it something that i can load into the car to use as a base? i have another tune that may also be of some use as a base. i'll post it in a minute.

It was the tune from your first log with the corrections added + a clean up of the rest of the VE table. I put it up so you could compare what you come up with but it will be fine to use as a base tune.
IMO you would be better off sticking with the one tune file & making the changes to suit. Dont get yourself confused by swapping & changing all the time.

[WeathermanShawn]

this is the most recent dyno tune. will some of it be of any use to me? also is it a SD tune or MAF, as i'm not really sure & never got a straight answer when i asked the guy who did it.

It appears to be a MAF Closed-Loop Tune with LTFT's Disabled. The High-Octane Spark looks eerily similar..I swear it looks like a Spark Tune I once ran (a.ka. the TQ/Spark Dip at 4000 Rpm's). Looks like he did a MAF 'Calibration' also..Not a bad tune. I don't exactly like the Airflow Parameters.

After reading your story perhaps it is a myth that there are professional tuners who will at least love your car as much as you or I do. There is one mail order tuner in the U.S. that is highly respected. I am sure you know his name. He is on the 'other' forum more.

I guess just stick with AUTOVE for now. You have the Tutorial(s) and forum assistance. If you ever decide to go MAF Closed-Loop give me a P.M. I can't 'spoon-feed' too much, but I don't mind sharing what I have learned over the last two years.

Enjoy..

[BadLSX]

It was the tune from your first log with the corrections added + a clean up of the rest of the VE table. I put it up so you could compare what you come up with but it will be fine to use as a base tune.
IMO you would be better off sticking with the one tune file & making the changes to suit. Dont get yourself confused by swapping & changing all the time.

ok, i going to copy the VE table from there to my tune that i'm working on. i like how the one you posted seems to be a lot smoother. did you use smoothing on it? i was going to try it, but was afraid i really would've made things worse for myself. once i get it copied & pasted to mine, i'll try to get a log of it before it pours down rain.

[BadLSX]

here is the log i just did with 5.7Utes VE table that he cleaned up some for me(thank you). i applied it & hopefully going to be able to get another good logging in yet today. the problem with me hitting some of the higher cells is that the car picks up speed fairly quick, especially for the roads i'm using to log. i'm trying to find an area where i can get some of these higher cells hit, but without wrecking the car or a incident with the law. lol i seem to be doing okay hitting them up to about 4-4200 rpm, but by then i have to slow down.

[5.7ute]

Bad. If you look at frames 1608 & 2310 you will see some anomolous lean spikes that need to be removed from the data before applying the corrections to your tune. (there are quite a few more as well if you look further down the log) To remove them place the cursor line on the chart at the start of the data you want to remove.(frame 1608)Left click & hold while dragging the cursor over the frames you want to remove.(about frame 1612) When you release the mouse button the selected frames will be highlighted. Then select the delete selected data from log file button at the bottom right of the screen. Once you have gone through the log removing these anomolies you can filter the data & apply to the VE table & relog. I will look into the reason for these lean spikes as I get the chance.

[5.7ute]

Bad, can you make sure that DFCO is disabled in your tune? (b3308/b3313)

[BadLSX]

Bad, can you make sure that DFCO is disabled in your tune? (b3308/b3313)

i'll check it out. what makes them disabled, just so i'm 100% sure that they are?

[5.7ute]

Set them both to 140 degC.

[5.7ute]

Bad, I stuffed up with the frame numbers as you cannot remove the data with a filter applied. If you look at frame 5800 (no filter applied) you will see the type of lean spike that needs to be removed.

[BadLSX]

Set them both to 140 degC.

ok i set them to 140 degrees C. i don't know if i missed that step in the tutorial or what happened there.

[5.7ute]

No harm done. With a manual DFCO gets filtered out easily, but with an auto, if it is active you need to remove some of the bad data manually.

[BadLSX]

Bad, I stuffed up with the frame numbers as you cannot remove the data with a filter applied. If you look at frame 5800 (no filter applied) you will see the type of lean spike that needs to be removed.

i'm going to have to build a dashpage to see it, i think. i'll work on that tonight as i've never done one of those yet. i also want to learn how to post a screenshot like you guys do. when building the dashpage do i select all the PIDs like i did for the AutoVE?

[5.7ute]

With posting a screenshot, I just hit ctrl+printScrn with the screen displayed. Open paint in windows/accessories. Then in the edit tab select paste. This file you then save as. You may need an editor to reduce the file size under1.00mb for efilive to allow you to upload it. I use Irfanview.

[5.7ute]

Here is that log with the dfco manually removed.