help with E67 tune pontiac solstice with turbo kit

[billion01]

Hi all,

I am trying to tune a 2007 pontiac solstice with a hahn racecraft turbo kit. I am ready to start tuning but I am not sure which fuel table i should be dealing with for part throttle tuning and full throttle tuning. I see tables for NA and multiple bar maps. Do i have to preset it to look for a certain map like 3 bar map for example?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

thanks!

[joecar]

Hi billion01, welcome to the forum :cheers:

I am not too familiar with E38/E67, but I'll start you off...

Install the 3-bar sensor and look at tables B2101, 2103.

Also see this: E38-VVE-Setup-Guide (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?8961-E38-VVE-Setup-Guide)

[billion01]

Thank you for the reply Joecar! I am going crazy trying to figure out this efilive stuff. I am used to systems just saying Fuel table and Ignition table. All this efilive lingo is so new to me. I read on another post about tuning with maf only? I just want to start off creating his fuel table and getting a/f's in safe ranges. If i did tune with maf only which table would I alter?

thanks!

[joecar]

In the tunetool's Search box, type in B2101 in uppercase and press Search... it will take you right to the table.

[joecar]

Somewhere I think there's a parameter for dynamic air threshold (rpm above which MAF is used exclusively), but I can't find it...

[billion01]

i think i may just go follow the guide you sent me and try that. For the E67 you have to pull the yellow wire as well? How come when i use the scan tool and start recording data the highlighted sections on the vve maps only move the rpm highlight while the kpa doesn't move at all? Did i set up something wrong with my pids? Thanks again man you have been a great help. I want to go to the efilive session at the efi university but I live in hawaii so its kinda hard.

[joecar]

In the scantool, on the PIDs tab, on the MAP pid, go rightclick->Metric... and restart both scantool and tunetool.

[billion01]

You are the man dude! Can't wait to try and use the scan and tune tool now! Will let you know how it goes later. Oh I tried the setup config thing you sent me. Man the car did not sound happy at all haha. Surging and sounded weird like it wanted to die out. Will try everything again today. If I am successful with this I am gonna send you some Macadamia nuts and coffee haha:cucumber:

[joecar]

Be sure to read both docs:


E38 VVE Setup Guide (http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4354&d=1229048532)
Virtual VE Tutorial (http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8002&d=1274505151)

[joecar]

To run MAF only: look at B8024, B8025 (thanks to swingtan/Simon for the info);

My understanding:
when rpm goes above B8024, MAF is used exclusively;
when rpm goes below B8025, VE/MAF are used in some combination (MAF for steady state, VE for transient).

i.e. High Speed = MAF only; Low Speed = VE and/or MAF.

[billion01]

Which function do I have to work with for the commanded af ratio? Also how do you convert the efilive to af ratio?

I tune on a dynapack so when I hold steady state at 3000 rpm at low load it reads ok but then starts to get excessively rich. Like 10.0. But I messed with open loop Vve table and it seemed to get better.

Thanks for the help with the Maf. I'm gonna try it. Customer wants to run about 1 bar of boost. I'm currently working with the 3 bar map. Am I on the right track?

[billion01]

The car does run a heck of a lot better than before. Oh also is there a writeup on how to deal with power enrichment? Still don't understand how that works. Is it similar to accel pumps on other standalones?

[joecar]

Commanded fuel: look at B0141-B0148.

Also look at PE: B3618 and B3670.

In the tunetool, go Edit-Properties->Display and look at Commanded fuel values... you can set this to AFR, but I strongly recommend setting it to EQR...!!!

[ use a cheat sheet to convert from EQR to AFR for your fuel types ]

Also, from your wideband use Lambda instead of AFR.

[joecar]

Power Enrichment:
- enables when the enablers are met, see B0156-B0170.
- commanded AFR (or rather commanded EQR) comes from B3618 and B3670.
- when the enablers trigger, tables B3618 becomes active, and if it is the richest of the active tables then it commands the EQR.

For example, when throttle is opened, ECM goes to OL (B0141,3 become active) and PE enables (B3618 becomes active)... the richest active table (at the operating point) is what the ECM selects for commanding EQR.

BTW: need to start thinking in EQR and Lambda rather than AFR:
EQR = 1/Lambda = AFRstoich/AFR or Lambda = 1/EQR = AFR/stoichAFR
This will make things more accurate and easier in the long run.

[billion01]

I have noticed that when i log data and look at my tune tool the map/kpa doesnt seem to go above 105 even though i know im making boost above that. When i hit that 105 ceiling and try to hold boost above that the car bucks and farts. I forgot to ask which table I would be modding if I set it to maf tune only? i think you said b8024 and b8025 for maf. Would a good setting be B8024 at 3500rpm and B8025 at 3400 rpm?

[joecar]

If you want MAF only, try setting B8024 to 400 rpm and B8025 to 380 rpm... or something similar.

If MAP doesn't go above 105 kPa, then check:
- 3-bar MAP sensor is installed,
- tables B2101, B2103 contain suitable scaling values;

the tunetool suggests values for B2101/3;

sanity check: with key on engine off, MAP should show barometric pressure in your locale (e.g. 100 kPa at sea-level).

[billion01]

hey joecar i checked b2101 and 2103 and it said

map sensor scaler = 94.4297
map sensor offset = 10.34

Used to scale the MAP sensor voltage output into a kPa/psi value.
1bar sensors are typically - 94.429688
2bar sensors are typically - 188.000

should I change the scaler to 188 and tune the 2 bar table? Would that work?

[joecar]

If you have the 2-bar sensor then yes.

If you have the 3-bar sensor then use 282 (i.e. 3*94)... will it allow you to enter 282...?

When the scaler is correct, then at koeo MAP will read the same as baro.

[billion01]

Where is the 2 bar map sensor usually installed? Is there a generic one already built into the stock harness? Sorry for the stupid questions but i didnt build this car. I know that the turbo kit is from hahn and everything looks installed well. If i input those settings to run maf only ie 8024 and 8025 at 380 and 400, which table would i use to tune the maf table?

[joecar]

The 2-bar or 3-bar MAP sensor completely replaces the 1-bar sensor.

[billion01]

Is it in the engine bay and does it look like your normal GM 3bar map sensor?

[billion01]

ok haha i will go root around and see... Do all e67 equipped vehicles come with map sensors? thanks again for your help man. When we finally get this car all sorted out, you will officially be my hero!

[billion01]

ok so I called the customer and asked him about the map sensor issue. He said he really doesn't think it came with one. So I went hunting on the solstice forums and found that the hahn kit is not equipped with a 2,3 bar map sensor.

The car is getting much easier to tune and is much more steady now but when it hits 105 kpa its like the car doesn't know what to do so it leans out and ignition breaks up as well. Is there something I am not clicking on or something?

The car seems much happier now in maf only mode but I am still hitting that problem. What map do I have to adjust to adjust for maf only? Is it the open afm fuel map?

[joecar]

The car has a 1-bar MAP sensor which plugs into the intake manifold...

The customer needs to get a 2-bar or 3-bar sensor and replace the 1-bar sensor with it... I don't know the part number, the Solstice forum might have it.

To tune above 105kPa the 2-bar (upto 15 psi boost) or 3-bar (more than 15 psi boost) sensor is needed... how much boost will be present...?

Without the 2-bar or 3-bar sensor the ECM won't be able to reference the boost sections of any tables.


In MAF only mode, if you need to make adjustment to make wideband EQR match commanded EQR then make the adjustment/correction to the MAF table B1099 itself... but be sure to be in MAF only mode with OL only mode.

[billion01]

Thanks man! I will definitely work on those options and suggest getting a 3 bar map sensor to my customer.

[joecar]

More info:
showthread.php?13546-l99-what-2-bar-map (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13546-l99-what-2-bar-map)
showthread.php?4351-2-bar-map-sensor (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4351-2-bar-map-sensor)
showthread.php?11001-What-2-bar-to-use (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?11001-What-2-bar-to-use)
showthread.php?1410-3-Bar-MAP-sensor-doesn-t-work-with-3-Bar-scaling (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?1410-3-Bar-MAP-sensor-doesn-t-work-with-3-Bar-scaling)!
showthread.php?13642-3.3-bar-MAP-sensor-problems (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13642-3.3-bar-MAP-sensor-problems)

[billion01]

Hey Joecar, I tried searching for B1099 but efilive says not found? Is it because it differs from E38 maps?

[joecar]

That could be.

[billion01]

darn, where should I look then? Car seems happier but when it goes past 6-7 psi of boost it just gets pissed and coughs and farts.

[joecar]

Engine won't go past 1-bar because the 2-bar or 3-bar VVE/VE table's not set up...

the MAF table might have a different id #... there might be 2 MAF tables (high and low).

Can you post the file here...?

[ScarabEpic22]

Once you get the 2/3 Bar MAP setup, you need to copy the 1 Bar VVE table to the 2/3 Bar VVE table and start from there. Once you get into the 2/3Bar table (2 Bar is min for FI applications), then you can actually setup the VVE table to command the proper fuel values.

[E67boostquest]

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread, but this thread was the most relavant for me.
I have a E67 PCM in a V6, I'm trying to figure out my upgrade path for the vehicle and would like to attempt some mild boost. It will need to maintain stock driveability and not set any check engine lights.

Not sure if this is possible or not.

Does anyone know for sure if I can purchase a 3 Bar MAP and activate it for use on my E67? I know HPTuners has no such functionality in fact...

[joecar]

I'm not 100% sure of this answer (I don't know much about E38/E67):

the E38/E67 VVE tables can be mapped for 2-bar or 3-bar VVE (the tunetool allows yo to select which bar VVE)... you need to install a 2-bar or 3-bar sensor, and you set the MAP sensor scaler to match the sensor.

Read thru this thread: showthread.php?8961-E38-VVE-Setup-Guide (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?8961-E38-VVE-Setup-Guide)

Now, having said that, we want someone who is knowledgeable in E38/E67 to give their input.

[E67boostquest]

Joe thank you for responding, you've actually been a fantastic help throughout this thread, and your commentary has given me the confidence that my E67 has the ability to run over a 1 bar Map sensor with factory reliability..
You should get a percentage of the sale of the tuner/scanner :}

I have the software, I wish someone would post a stock tune or bin whatever you call them for the E67 so I can play with that.

[DPS]

Joe thank you for responding, you've actually been a fantastic help throughout this thread, and your commentary has given me the confidence that my E67 has the ability to run over a 1 bar Map sensor with factory reliability..
You should get a percentage of the sale of the tuner/scanner :}

I have the software, I wish someone would post a stock tune or bin whatever you call them for the E67 so I can play with that.




You can cross-reference the E67 portion of this: http://www.efilive.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147&Itemid=146

With the appropriate vehicle from this: http://www.holdencrazy.com/EFILive/stockTunes.php


Now you can play around all you want :cheers:

[E67boostquest]

Thanks bud, but unfortunately my '08 Aura XR does not cross reference with anything in the repository. Since my ECU is an E67.

I've tried to look through the E38 .tun file that comes with the "read only" software that comes with the software download, as it's the closest thing to an E67 that I've got but, honestly I don't think I'm going to understand this. I've tuned bits of my old 98 GTP. A bunch of Supras with ViPEC V88, and AEM. But nothing nearly as complex as the E67 ECU.

I'm not sure I understand the VE zoning purposes, the next cell over reads like 30% higher than the previous cell but somehow looks smooth on the map. And I'm not sure what the values of anything are... Like they are XXXX for KPAxRPM.

Weird... I can and will learn those things in other threads but, right now I need to understand how I will be able to bolt up a GM 2 or 3 bar map, and cause my PCM to start reading from that newly found pressure. The boost is the easy part, it's the ECU stuff that's been holding me back.

I'm already making a custom upper intake plenum for the car so the inlet is on the passenger side to make room for the turbo, and I WOULD like to be able to tune the car in the mean-time [if it even needs it], so I want to learn this software and my ECU and be confident that it will be able to take care of my needs.

Holden guys have not had much luck tuning their 3.6 "Alloytec" for boost. EG. Pro Flow Fabs, on 8 psi with their GT35 made something like 330 whp... They switched to a ViPEC and made 383 whp same boost. Despite their A/F and ignition timing being similar b/t the two. So I wonder if somehow the ECU found a way to dial back power?

I'm afraid of this happening, so I'm trying to get some nice data in this thread to convince me to move forward, I'm relatively convinced so that's good but more info is always better. I wish I could speak with an expert on the E67.

[kangsta]

Tha main problem with the Bosch E55 that runs the Holden alloytecs is that there are only a few tables available in commercially available software and its no where near enough to run boost on a car that was released NA.

E67 will have no problem running boost. It might help if you post your stock tune

[billion01]

Wow glad to see my thread spawned a whole bunch of replies and hopefully helped alot of people. Joecar and the guys are really awesome and incredibly helpful. I can share the sentiment on the software. It's kinda too techy for me. Haha. I really want to buy a 3 bar map sensor that will plug in and work. Can someone please help?

[Taz]

Hello E67boostquest,


I take it you have a 2008 Saturn Aura with a 3.6 L V6 ? As you have discovered the Holdencrazy site does not have many V6 tunes. If you are looking for any E67 tune, just to gain some practical experience with that ECM platform, there are several of those on the Holdencrazy site.

There are 3 Cadillac CTS-V tunes that I believe use the E67 ECM:

’06 CTS-V (OS 12605669)
’07 CTS-V (OS 12609051)
’09 CTS-V (OS 12632176) * supercharged LSA 6.2 L *

The supercharged LSA tune should be a great resource - given your project plans.

Sorry to participate in the “thread hijack” Billion01 - couldn’t help myself !


Regards,
Taz

[ScarabEpic22]

E67boostquest, the E67 can run up to 3 BAR of boost without issue. The Vette ZR1 and Caddy CTS-V prove this. Order a EFILive FlashScan V2, pull your stock tune, post it up, and we can help you calibrate the tune for the 3 BAR MAP sensor. Then its tuning the VVE and spark tables, there is an excellent VVE tutorial by swingtan on the main EFILive downloads page that is great for E67 tuning (its for an E38, most of the tables match up identically).

[E67boostquest]

Guys, thank you so much for your kind efforts to myself/billion. I really do appreciate the friendliness of this forum, it's actually quite staggering your polite helpful approach.

Taz, thank you I will check that out, and you're correct that is the vehicle that I have. I have somewhat of a "sleeper" mod addiction it's terrible, we both know that my daily is no sport car at 3700 lbs and a FWD automatic (hehe), it's not even the sleeper approach, it's just that I must improve upon everything I own, I hate this.

ANYWAYS...

SE22 I'll purchase a Flashscan V2, is there anything else I need. I'd like to run a wideband o2, so my guess is that I will have to purchase some sort of adapter that will allow a wideband to communicate with my Efilive or don't bother?

I've read through swingtan's writeup it's very comprehensive, it's just that I'm slow to pick up the process for the software, I'll be more worried about getting the VVE tables setup when the time comes. I would like to run both MAF and MAP, so that I can maintain passing emissions. (I believe if I simply turn off fault codes that emissions monitors won't pass correct? - *Note I do not have a sniffer test for emissions just a scan test)

[joecar]

Which wideband do you have...?

For example, see this: connecting LC-1 to V2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?9340-serial-port-cable-that-goes-to-v2&p=81205&viewfull=1#post81205)

See forum member TAQuickness (http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?526-TAQuickness) for ready-made cables.
(http://forum.efilive.com/member.php?526-TAQuickness)

[E67boostquest]

I typically prefer AEM UEGO. I assume I'm stuck with that LC-1? It's better than nothing unless that LC-1 doesn't contain the resistor from the factory for calibration, which is used to keep the sensor reading accurate even over fouling. The difference in response time and accuracy is pretty significant b/t LC and UEGO.

But I really need the Wideband for VEE tuning eh?

[joecar]

V2 supports AEM UEGO...

[E67boostquest]

Excellent. Now I'll likely need to also spring for another MAF I'm sure I'll out flow this stock one.

[ScarabEpic22]

V2s support most major brands WBO2 sensors via serial input, no dealing with analog ground offsets anymore.

Im not sure what the MAF limit on your car is, but if you wanted to first, tune it in Speed Density then add the MAF back and see if you actually do outflow it. You'd be surprised, there are a bunch of cars/trucks that dont outflow their stock MAF even running boost.

[E67boostquest]

I'll be 100% certain that I will out flow the MAF, never met a stock maf I couldn't outflow :)

If it gives you any idea my car comes equipped stock with 23.6# injectors... Grant it thats at 3bar fuel pressure and stock I run 60 psi, but still. The fuel system - electronics and the rods indicate to me this vehicle wasn't meant for boost :D

I'm working on a custom intake manifold at the moment, and I was wondering how I would go about getting stock driveability out of an LS7 TB and (I'm not sure what MAF to use to be honest, it's the old MAF and honeycomb style - not the cartridge)

[E67boostquest]

Any updates from anyone?

[scdyne]

Sorry I have been REAL busy working and getting ready to get married next month so my online time is limited at best. My supercharged Saturn Sky was tuned on a dynapac (EFILive) and it's an automatic so...
I digress..

E67boostquest,
Your MAF will be fine. WORST case if you outflow it then you can change the diameter of the pipe it goes into and recalibrate it from scratch.. I say worse case because this is a bit of a task.
Since you are talking about custom intake manifold and throttle body then chances are you are going to need to recalibrate it anyhow. Personally I wouldn't do this and unless you want to make 400+ HP its not necessary.

----- -----

A rock solid proven GM MAP sensor that is a drop in replacement:
2.5 bar ACDelco# 12580698

[E67boostquest]

I don't have a cartridge style MAF, it's a standard honeycomb style (which I'm happy about because those don't flip out over being boosted into)

As far as the intake manifold, I'll need to do what I'm doing #1 because I already spent a lot of money for CNC work, #2 because I need to change the orentation of the inlet to the passengerside.

[E67boostquest]

P.S. congratulations on your marriage next month man!

[scdyne]

re: marriage.. thank you.

I have supercharged (centrifugal) more than 1 Aura (both 2.4L and 3.6L) and they all had the same MAF GM#12576410 as my SKY, ALL of which I run blow through. The trick in my case has been to have an atmospheric venting blow off valve on the S/C side of the intercooler so that the volume of the intercooler works like a pressure snubber to the MAF and throttle body.
A lot of E67 powered engines use this same MAF and we're all boosting them.. many of which are blow through.
While I don't at all disagree with building a custom intake manifold - at the risk of making more of a tuning nightmare than necessary - I would suggest that you maintain the following OEM details:
1. Stock MAF as listed above.
2. Stock Throttle body.
3. Stock diameter intake tube ID 2.75" with 8-10 inches of 2.75" straight tube before the MAF and 4-6 inches of 2.75" after the MAF.(Before throttle body)
GM Performance MAF bung #19166574.

Knowing the accuracy of the sensors used to define the operational range of a vehicle system is the key to a successful tune.
Correct Injector, MAP, MAF and throttle body specs are KEY to working with the ECU rather than working against it.
I have seen more than a few professional tunes that do nothing more than follow the lean spot through the tuning software until it seems to go away, then call that a good tune. While the end game may be the same(that day at that dyno at that altitude, etc.), I prefer to calibrate the sensors then tune to what they are telling you.
Stick with what the ECU knows to be true and tune from there.

[E67boostquest]

Ok now I'm very confused here, I'm getting mixed messages as far as your credibility is concerned. On one hand I'm hoping you're a new resource I can learn from in terms of actual tuning. On the other hand you most definately did not supercharge a 3.6 Liter in an Aura with a cartridge style mass air flow. There was never a cart. style MAF on an epsilon based 3.6... So I'm not sure what to think here.

#1 you should already know that I'd definately need more injector right? So could you help me select and tune for the proper injector?
#2 I agree, for now I will just stick with the stock TB and MAF, until I run out of frequency with the MAF, which I probably will. My setup will make about 380 to 400 whp at about 8 lbs of boost, my guess the stock MAF won't take care of that, and I know for sure the injectors will be looong gone before then. Thoughts on that?

Just for a visual aid, my maf, that definately isn't a cartridge style maf... and cannot be swapped in and out of piping.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd44/2jzturbo/08%20Aura%20XR%20Modification/Jeffshouse024.jpg?t=1286933978

[scdyne]

OK, a little miss communication on my part. Sorry. When boosted it was using the cartridge style of MAF sensor #12576410. I'm trying to remember the wiring details and find my notes so I don't get called out again..

For the cartridge MAF #12576410
A MAF Sig
B ground
C 12V+
D Low Ref
E IAD Sig

For the OEM MAF #2131677 <- double check these - >
A Low Ref Black
B IAT Sig Tan
C Ground Black/White
D 12V + Pink/Black
E MAF Sig Yellow

I'm still looking for the tune so I can't say whether it was a direct transfer of table values or if it was massaged within the limits of the ECU range.
I honestly can't remember, but if it is 0-12200Hz range of 1 or 2 tables or even a single 0 to 15000 then we may have just ran out the table flat line from 412 Grams/set @ 12200 to 15000. Heck it may have even been an Emanage hack job piggy back. let me look around some..

[E67boostquest]

Hrm, well I'm confused further. I guess my skepticism comes by way of protecting the hope that I have that you could actually help me tune this car for boost :)

So my questions I guess would be the following. #1 why change from stock to cart style? #2? If it was your emanage hack job, why? I thought this E67 was supposed to be superior in terms of tuneability? Why would you even want/need an emanage (if indeed that was the same build you were talking about).

And could you give me details on how to contact your client? He might be interested in a small community for High Feature V6's I just started.

[scdyne]

#1 It was a show car and I didn't want a big black tube in the middle of the engine bay around all chrome pipes.
#2 There was limited time to get it running. EFILive may not have supported the tune at that time or didn't get that specific OS added by the time the car left me.

Maybe this should be a separate thread because it's become a mess with part numbers and conflicts to what is valid for the LE5
vs. the LY7.. partly my fault no less.

[E67boostquest]

Yeah sorry guys for doping up this thread. SCdyne, if you would be so kind perhaps you could PM me some details?

[billion01]

Ok, been MIA for awhile but it's because my customer had a heart attack. He is doing alot better now and wants to finish this tune. I bought a 3bar map sensor and plan on hardwiring it in. I was just wondering where in the software do i make the adjustments to scalar and offset for the new map sensor. It's a GM 3bar.

- Do i just click on and start modding the 3 bar table?

- How do I put the ecu into open loop mode again?

thanks again guys, I really hope to post some dyno results later.

[billion01]

Ok, I installed the 3 bar map sensor and everything seems to be reading correctly. I am trying to mod the vve open loop table but it doesn't seem to be adding any fuel. The Solstice revs up nice and doesnt hit boost cut at 105 anymore but the fuel doesnt seem to be going up in the boost section of the map. I'm trying to follow all the guidelines and setup but I not really getting anywhere. I hope Joecar can chime in on this one. I will try and post up my tune later.

thanks guys!