2004 5.3 Rockcrawler

[blindawg]

I'm 16 and i was introduced to this program by a friend of my dads, and i know a little bit more than the basics about it by now, but thats not much, so please forgive me if i need extra explination.

we have a 6000 lb rock crawler with a 2004 5.3 engine, 4l60E trans, and 2.5 ton rockwell axles turning 47" tall tires.
i coppied and pasted the Z06 Spark tables on it and dissabled all the torque management stuff that we know of.
we are looking for more bottom end power and anything else you guys think would help out. open for suggestions.
i would put the current tun on here, but im not sure how, do i just attach it?

Thanks everyone,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

Welcome to the forum :cheers:

Yes, just attach your current .tun file here, along with any log files you have;

see post #9 in this thread (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?2990-Collecting-links-to-tutorial-material-scattered-in-other-sections...).

[joecar]

Do you have FlashScan V1 or V2...?

What was the donor vehicle for the powertrain...?

[blindawg]

FlashScan V1.2
04 chevy silvarado. we have a throttle cable instead of the drive-by-wire because it makes it easier for trail repair and simplicity.

i have no log files because i just learned how to BBL last week and havent done anything with it.

here is the .tun currently on it. i forgot that we increased it 10% from the Z06 tables.

8980

Thanks for the help guys,
Branden

[joecar]

Do these things:
- set B3609 and B3609 to zeroes.
- set B3615 and B3616 to 65% below 4000 rpm, and to 35% from 4000 and above.
- if you have no cats, set B0701 to disable.
- set D0961 and D0962 to 100% to avoid conflicting with part throttle up/down shift tables.
- set G0913 to say 215 and G0914 to 210 (do your fans two speeds...?).

With that much timing, keep an eye and ear on knock... if you hear it knock, or if you see knock retard then reduce timing in those cells (use the scantool->tunetool cursor/cell linking feature) (always log KR).

When engine is under significant load, avoid knock at all costs (make sure AFR is not lean, make sure timing is not over-advanced).

You might try to enter your tire size in the speedo calculator to see if you can get VSS to have correct values (since this directly affect the shift tables)... you may or may not get this work, you have to play with it.

[blindawg]

the speed sensor is on the rear drive shaft output of the transfer case so it wont be accurate no matter what. (we are planning on fixing that this winter) thanks for the thought. :hihi:

what exactly is power enrichment? i know the name explains a lot, but how does it work?

Its a single speed fan, we manually bypassed the computer telling it to turn on because we didnt have the FlashScan on the trail and our hydro steering was overheating so we just made the fan on as soon as the key is on. (we will fix that too, its still in the development stage)

we had it on the rev-limitter last monday going up a hill and didnt hear a knock. Next Time we should have the netbook ready to go and we will log it. is there a map already created for knock? if not, can you get me started on how to make it?

i'll make those corrections as soon as i get enough time to sit down with the computer and learn it rather than just throwing those numbers into it. i think this stuff is amazing and i wanna be able to figure this stuff out like you did. :grin:

Thanks fellas,
Branden

[blindawg]

i put all that data in and started looking at the knock retard and it does it bad at idle and deceleration.
we took the 10% out of the high octane table and its still doing it. we'll keep messing with it, but what is a good incrament to go down by?

we are taking it out tomorrow for an event and see what has improved from before. thanks for the info sir.

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

...

what exactly is power enrichment? i know the name explains a lot, but how does it work?

...When the PE enablers trip (primarily B3616 (throttle position)), table B3618 becomes the commanded AFR.

[joecar]

Maps:
- take a log;
- goto the Maps tab, select a letter subtab;
- click the hand/finger-pointing-down button (Edit Map Properties);
- on the Data tab select the pid that will be the map's cell data;
- on the Row and Col tabs select the pids that will be the row and col axis pids;
- if you copy-with-labels from a tunetool table, you can do Paste Labels on the row/col tabs to have the map mimic the tunetool table;
- save to file;
- play with filter (two buttons with slanted looking grey box).

The scantool user manual has more detailed maps info.

[joecar]

The software is pretty amazing...

read the scantool/tunetool user manual pdf's (see under Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Docs and also ...\Docs\Tutorials).

More info: follow the links in my sig (I'm constantly collecting info).

[joecar]

i put all that data in and started looking at the knock retard and it does it bad at idle and deceleration.
we took the 10% out of the high octane table and its still doing it. we'll keep messing with it, but what is a good incrament to go down by?

we are taking it out tomorrow for an event and see what has improved from before. thanks for the info sir.

Thanks,
BrandenFirst check if AFR is sufficient for the load (high load normally aspirated requires something like 12.6-13.0);

Then try subtracting 4 degrees at a time... if it still knocks after -8 degrees, then something else is wrong (e.g. oil ingestion lowers effective octane);

Can you hear it knocking/detonating...? Is anything (exhaust) hitting chassis...? Is valvetrain noisy...?

[blindawg]

here are two log files, im not sure what to look for, but we were looking at the "high octane spark retard (SD)" and that is what i was going off of to tell you it was knocking, we cant hear it knock at all and the drivetrain is fine, as is the exaust.

the first one is with the transfer case in 1:1 with us holding the break and hitting the gas.
the second one is with it just sitting in park and me just hitting the gas.

we dont have a battery for our lap top so we cant take it down the street or up any hills while logging it. sorry guys.

9026
9027

Thank you sir,
Branden

[blindawg]

so what do you think guys?
is it knocking?

thanks guys,
Branden

[joecar]

I haven't had a chance to look yet... I pm'd myself a link to this thread...

[blindawg]

no worries, it just seems like the time goes by real slow when you're waiting on an answer with nothing else to do. ya know? lol.

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

Both of those logs show that KR (knock retard) is stuck at 0.1°...

this and some of the other pids seem to be not working on this PCM/OS...

(KR, AFR, HO2S11/21, FUELSYS, IBPW1/2, LONGFT1/2 are all flatlined at some value)

Which build version of V7 software do you have (do Help->About)...?

You can do black box logging with V1:
- connect PC/scantool to V1 only,
- select pids you want to log (keep channel count to 24 or less),
- go FlashScan->Program Selected Pids into FlashScan,
- set it to record 1 log file (this makes the log time goto 23 minutes),
- click the PIDs button to program the pid list to V1,
- when finished, exit the popup window, exit scantool;

Then take V1 to vehicle:
- connect V1 to vehicle,
- with vehicle running, press the record button on V1 (press it once only),
- the USB LED should show activity,
- drive vehicle,
- log will stop after 23 minutes, or press record button once to stop recording;

Then take V1 to PC:
- start scantool,
- connect to V1,
- go FlashScan->Read Logged Data from FlashScan,
- click the Retrieve button and save the log to file,
- exit the popup window,
- you can now view the logged data file.

More info: see scantool user manual pdf.

[blindawg]

V7.5

and which PIDs would you like to see?
and beings it is stuck at .1* does that mean anything about it knocking? we cant hear any knock at all so we assume its ok?
what can i do to fix the flatline problem?

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Those pids (I mentioned in post #16) do not seem to work for your OS/PCM...

At low load it wouldn't knock, and it is safe in this case (low load) to assume it's ok...

It doesn't seem to me that there is a problem with the knock sensor and/or harness, but it seems to me that those pids are wrong for your PCM/OS.

Yah, we wanted to see those pids but they don't work. :doh2: <- I have been doing this lately :)

[blindawg]

Does this mean I need to change the os?
And "low load" means? (sorry, still new)

[joecar]

I don't know which OS you would change to (you may have the same problems)...

some people have suggested repinning the PCM connectors to run with a 0411 PCM, this allows various OS possibilities... this might be a good route, but see what others say.

Low load means that engine is not working hard, it is just cruising along with minimum throttle, MAP is near idle, MAF airflow is low, cylinder airmass is low, combustion chamber temperatures are low.

[blindawg]

well the 1:1 log was simulating it being under a load because of the high gear and the breaks applied.

and it is the 0411 PCM.....

Branden

[joecar]

Try this: connect laptop/scantool to vehicle, and do Info->Validate Pids, and then look at the PIDs tab, checkmark Supported, how many pids are left...?

Also, go File->Enter VIN and enter a VIN number from the original vehicle if you have it.

Also, go File->Select Controller and choose GenIII 1999-2008.

If it's a 0411 controller then those pids should be functioning correctly.

[blindawg]

Alright. I'll check the PIDs tomorrow, as well as intering the VIN.

Our controller is the non-drive by wire version. I forget the year, but it's like 99-02. Do I still select the 99-08?

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Yes, Gen III 99-08 (aka LS1B in EFILive terminology).

[blindawg]

well guys,
Dad and i havent drove it since september because we sent the T-case into the manufactur to be fixed and just got it back and put in a week or so ago.
while we were waiting for it to ship back we put an early (96-99 i think were the years) LS1 cam shaft in it, along with yellow Valve springs. we've only went around the block once and had it running to check and fill fluids and all that good stuff. I personally havent had time to drive it, but dad says it seems the throttle response has went down and it seems a little flat.
i havent had gotten a chance to fix the Loging issue with the PIDs, but will do so before we change anything and i will post a log of what we have now.
Do you guys have any suggestions on what would need to be changed?
the Cam and Springs is all we have changed.

Thanks,
Branden

[minytrker]

You probably used a 98 LS1 cam since it was the biggest stock cam. It shouldnt have even really changed the way it ran before with such a small cam change. Get the PID situation fixed so you can get some good data and we can go from there.

[bmax]

Brandon,

You might also want to log the burst knock pid. Sometimes it will cause KR at lower RPMs.

Some people disable it once they determine its not harmful.

Good luck and sounds like a fun machine.

Once you learn how to use these tools you will have it running perfect.

Brad

[blindawg]

sorry guys, things are getting hectic again. by the time i get home from school and pratice its dark and its been in the teens for tempeture so not much is being done when i get home.
Please be paitent with me.

Thanks guys,
Branden

[blindawg]

Joecar-
We had a snow day today, so i did as you said in the above post and there were about 300 PIDs left.
after i did that we went down the road to the elementry school parking lot to play around in all the fun stuff. i logged the way down there, and while we were messing around.

9725
9726
9727

the knock retard stayed at 0. so either its fixed, or it's just stuck at a different number. who do you guys think?

Thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

Dad picked up a 6.0 last friday. :hihi:
its the high output LQ9 out of an 02 Escalade. is there a certain OS that will be better than the others? we are going to stick with the DBC.

Thanks guys, we appriciate it.
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

For the 512kB 0411 PCM, the 2002 F-car DBC OS 12212156 is very versatile, has 4L60E and 4L80E segments available, and COS3 and 5.

[blindawg]

i'm looking on holden crazy for that and im only seeing that OS for a 5.7 firebird. does this make a difference?
thanks for the help sir.
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

You will enjoy the LQ9 (6.0L) - a very good engine. As far as a tune goes, in keeping with Joecar’s comments on the OS, you could use any 2002 pickup LQ4 (6.0L) tune. You will find most of the parameters are the same between the two engines (including the main VE). The primary difference is in the spark tables.

The LQ9 has a higher compression ratio, and requires compatible spark control. The high octane tables are usually fairly close - it’s the low octane table that’s needs to be more conservative with the LQ9.

A couple of questions to help you with compatibility in this swap ….

What OS are you currently using with the 5.3 L and 4L60 ?

Where did the current wiring harness come from ?

What model year of vehicle was the current wiring harness designed for ?


The main compatibility issue I foresee are the O2 sensors. All 2003 to 2007 Gen III trucks use “Isolate ground” O2 sensors (ground controlled by the PCM). The 1999 to 2002 4.8L and 5.3L trucks predominantly use “Case ground” O2 sensors (ground directly). With the 6.0L, from 1999 to 2002, the O2 sensors could be:

Isolate ground (front) and Case ground (rear)
Isolate ground (all - front and rear)
Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Thanks Taz.
dad is pretty excited about it.

OS-12209203
the wiring harness was custom made by whoever we bought it from (Ebay)

i'm not fully understanding what you are saying about the ground issue for the O2 sensors.
are you saying we need to have a ground wire to the PCM from the 02 sensors? i'll go out an check to see what we have already done.
we have the 5.3 pulled out and about to put the 6.0 in. lunch break.

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

The tables that you can see in EFILive (or any tuning software) are only a very small portion of the code that is actually at work in the PCM.

By way of example ….

If your current wiring harness and PCM tune are designed to work with Case Grounded O2 sensors:

the PCM requires a “high” and “low” signal from each O2 sensor
B1S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 69 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B1S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 29 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 66 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 26 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
the O2 sensors self ground (pin C on the O2 sensor)

If your current wiring harness and PCM tune are designed to work with Isolated Grounded O2 sensors:

the PCM requires a “high” signal from each O2 sensor
the PCM requires “low” signal from each O2 sensor - BUT the wires from pin A of all four O2 sensors merge in a mutual splice pack, THEN connect to their respective PCM pin locations
the PCM also requires a “low reference” signal - mutual to all four O2 sensors
B1S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 69 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B1S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 29 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 66 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 26 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
the mutual low reference signal is typically connector C1 pin 63 (pin A from all O2 sensors)

The OS you are using (12209203) is a 2002 variant - it was used in LQ9 equipped DBW Escalades and LM7 (5.3L) equipped DBC Avalanches - and probably other applications.

If you are not certain which type of wiring harness and O2 sensors you have been using to date in the vehicle, it may be easier (and safer) to simply “copy and paste” the required LQ9 parameters into your existing PCM tune file.


Regards,
Taz

[joecar]

There also are some truck 12212156 files.

Good point about the O2 sensor case grounding.

[blindawg]

Hello Branden,

The tables that you can see in EFILive (or any tuning software) are only a very small portion of the code that is actually at work in the PCM.

By way of example ….

If your current wiring harness and PCM tune are designed to work with Case Grounded O2 sensors:

the PCM requires a “high” and “low” signal from each O2 sensor
B1S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 69 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B1S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 29 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 66 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 26 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
the O2 sensors self ground (pin C on the O2 sensor)

If your current wiring harness and PCM tune are designed to work with Isolated Grounded O2 sensors:

the PCM requires a “high” signal from each O2 sensor
the PCM requires “low” signal from each O2 sensor - BUT the wires from pin A of all four O2 sensors merge in a mutual splice pack, THEN connect to their respective PCM pin locations
the PCM also requires a “low reference” signal - mutual to all four O2 sensors
B1S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 69 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B1S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 29 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “High” is typically connector C1 pin 66 (pin B on the O2 sensor)
B2S1 “Low” is typically connector C1 pin 26 (pin A on the O2 sensor)
the mutual low reference signal is typically connector C1 pin 63 (pin A from all O2 sensors)

The OS you are using (12209203) is a 2002 variant - it was used in LQ9 equipped DBW Escalades and LM7 (5.3L) equipped DBC Avalanches - and probably other applications.

If you are not certain which type of wiring harness and O2 sensors you have been using to date in the vehicle, it may be easier (and safer) to simply “copy and paste” the required LQ9 parameters into your existing PCM tune file.


Regards,
Taz

What parameters would be required?

how do you guys know what OS and everything to suggest? is there a book or a chart?

many thanks to the both of you,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Case Ground and Isolated Ground O2 sensors can often be distinguished by their appearance. An internet search should get you some pictures to help with identification.

As far as what parameters to change … open your existing tune (5.3L) and also open an LQ9 (6.0L) tune and compare them table by table, line by line, and make changes related to displacement, VE, spark, and whatever else is unique or necessary for your vehicle / swap application.

You probably won’t be able to use the compare Alternative Calibration function in EFILive, as your current OS will probably be different from the LQ9 OS.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

i did the search and found out we have the Isolate ground O2 sensors. we only have front O2s because se dont run Cats. i guess i shuld have mentioned that.

we go it in and flashed an O2 silvarado OS 12212156. copy and pasted the Low octane table from an LQ9. that was the only thing we really found.
does this sound alright? it runs right and everything.

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

If the 2002 Silverado tune you flashed in was from an LQ4 (6.0L) you should be good to go. The VE should be the same as the LQ9, and that particular tune (6.0L) should be compatible with the Isolated Ground O2 sensors.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

yes it is from an LQ4. ment to say that in the above post.
havent been able to take it out because of time and weather issues, but will let you know how it all goes.

Thanks for all your help and explinations.
Branden and Dave (Dad)

[blindawg]

we raised the idle from 575 rpm to 650 rpm at operating temp.
at idle the spark goes crazy. i'll get a log up tonight if i get a chance. is this normal? it does sould a little rough at idle, but its a dream off idle.

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Please forgive the following redundant questions …

Did you conduct a CKP learn (CASE) procedure ?

Did you bring the engine up to operating temperature and conduct an idle learn procedure ?
· engine at operating temperature
· set parking brake or use wheel chocks
· shift transmission into “Drive”
· let idle for 5 minutes
· shift transmission into “Park”
· let idle for 5 minutes
· turn engine “Off” for at least 30 seconds (while parameters are saved)

If none of the above stabilized the idle, compare the contents of the Idle folder in the LQ9 versus LQ4 tune files that you used in the engine conversion. The LQ9 was DBW, while the LQ4 was DBC. I take it you are using a DBC setup ?

Don’t recall if the 2002 LQ9 used an 80 mm DBW throttle body. If you are a 4.8L or 5.3L DBC throttle body it may be a smaller 75 mm unit … again, memory failing me on this detail …


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

I did the CASE relearn right after the first start up.
I havent done the idle relearn thought. this is becasue i didnt know anything about it. :doh2: so i thank you for letting me in on the secret. :cheers:
problem is that we have no parking brake, or wheel chocks big enough to hold 47" tires. :grin:
so would holding the brake interfrear with the test? because of the TCC switch.

The only things ive done to the new tune is use the LQ9 High, Low, and Base timing tables. As well as every single perameter form our old Transmission tab to the new tune. i did everything becasue of the shift points we have customized and we are using a 4L60E trans. and the tune uses a 4L80E.
Turned off the EGR because we dont run it.
Turned off all the abuse management i could find, and set B3609 to all zero's.

I took a log for you guys as we went down the street-
10016
The transmission never went into 1st gear, the PCM thought it did, but did not. You can see this in the log, but will have to take my word that it never actually went into first.
The power was better than the 5.3, but not by much. :bad:

So to make sure we didnt forget to plug something in that we couldnt see we re flashed the old 5.3 tune and started it. WOW :shock: it sounded great! idle was fine, spark wasn't jumping around, and it was crisp when the pedal was pushed. :grin: Dashbord was fine, nothing looked or sounded wrong.
we put it into gear and it went into first just like it should.

Here is a log going down the street using the 5.3 tune-
10015

So we are left with the question, can we use this tune that is ment for the 5.3 motor?

I know you said to Copy and Paste from old tune to new tune, and i had done that, but i have obviously missed something. :doh2:

would you guys like to see the two tunes?

Thank you for your help. I know these might be stupid quesions, but i still have a lot to learn.
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Rarely is any conversion without its share of headaches ……..

As you have discovered the 5.3L tune will often run the 6.0L engine …. I have known people that upgrade trucks from the 5.3L to the 6.0L without any tuning changes. The fuel trims will be at or near the limit of the 5.3L tune, but the engines seem to run OK.

While experimenting with the 5.3L tune I would recommend changing the cylinder volume to reflect a 6.0L engine, as well as copying over the low octane spark table (for safety). Then see how it runs, while logging applicable fuel & spark parameters.

After this test, then copy over the main VE table, and again see how it runs, while logging applicable fuel & spark parameters.

This will help narrow down where the tuning issue is coming from. If the VE table is off, or has been modified, you may need to create a new VE table reflective of your actual engine and vehicle combination.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Thanks for the help Taz. We did that, and nothing really seemed to change. Just minor changes if any.
We went to an event, and it performed great. no codes were tripped, everything went smoothly.
We are very, very appriciative of all the help we have recieved from this forum.

Branden and Dave

[Big D]

Off topic here but Blindawg, if you dont mind me asking where are you located? I can't tell much from your avatar but the terrian looks interesting.

[blindawg]

Planning on going boosted. :cucumber:
We Purchased a whipple super charger off ebay, and come to find out that it is obsolet. Whipple only supports and sells 07+ models. Thus, making it pretty much impossible to find parts for. We Can make all the brackets neccacry to mount it. Only thing we are stuck on is that the original air inlet from the SC to the Intake had 2 42 LB injectors that sprayed to compinsate for all the extra air. That's Part we cant make.
So we are left with the question, can we just upgrade all 8 stock injectors to 44 or 42 LB injectors and tune accordingly?

Thanks to all,
Branden and Dave

[ScarabEpic22]

YES! Screw the old method of adding extra injectors, the only reason Id use them now is if you wanted to dump a ton of N20 into it! Use some bigger injectors and setup your tune properly, it should drive better than add-on injectors too.

[blindawg]

Thanks Erik. Thats what we were hoping would be the answer. :grin:
Because of the jeep body we had to work around, and all the other obsticals, our exhaust is pretty confined, and doesnt let it breath as much as it really should for a SC. (this is what we are thinking at least) its stock manafolds, with two 2" into one 2 1/2" pipe. flowmaster 40 series muffler. What do you guys think?
should this be moved to the blown section now? We are thinking maybe a winter project though.

Thanks,
Branden and Dave

[johnmaster]

I don't think that manifolds and exhaust tubing will disqualify you from successfully running the SC. Just because you can't bolt on somebody's header kit in your chassis doesn't mean you cant make the best of what room you have to work with. Stock 6.0L manifolds flow great, I think everyone else will agree that it is worth pursuing even with out aftermarket exhaust.

[blindawg]

Alright. Thanks for the help.
Untill we have time to build the brackets and get it tuned, thats all the questions we had.

Thanks guys,
Branden