Turbo Camaro with issues

[etmotorsports]

Check out this log, i am not too familiar with the E38 this is a customers car they bought from someone and everything is already on it, built motor and a turbo kit with a large camshaft. This car is supposed to make over 600 + RWHP i haven't seen over 458 RWHP. Which doesn't concern me too much it is hot now and the 600 i sure was in cooler weather. I have check plugs and wires all is good it is inconsistent and doesn't want to pull above about 4500 it feels like a lot of timing is being pulled, the car shakes quite a bit and pulls but not like it should. Here is a data log let me know if something odd jumps out at you. I am trying to get the car to make a full pull with a smooth power before i go retune it. I have doubts about the power level but the power should be smooth and consistent.

8984

[joecar]

Hi David,

I'm not knowledgeable in E38, but this is what I see when I took a quick look:
- LTFT's are turned off it seems,
- STFT's bouncing around,
- MAP is pegged at 120kPa,
- MAF does not seem stable (maybe due to MAF plumbing),
- cylinder airmass drops sharply (VVE table is wrong).

Also, wrong pids for throttle position and injector pulsewidth.

[etmotorsports]

I have noticed the maf is not steady at all, i am used to tuning fords of the MAF and the signal is bouncing around. I am sure the VVE table is wrong since the car is runing on the MAF from 1150 RPMs and up, sorry i should have posted the tune.

I the spark is even higher than what is requested on the tables. I have never seen this before but could this datalog be corrupt due to the wrong parameters? I will post the tune file later, i cant right now.

[swingtan]

Some more points......

Boost and no WideBand = imminent disaster!


The STFT's indicate that fueling is way too lean in non boost areas. This probably means the boost areas are very lean as well.
The LTFT's are disabled, so no learned enrichment will be applied.
Given the above, I'd be very concerned about WOT fueling.
At idle, the MAP is reading quite high. I'll make a guess that this cam has a bit of overlap, which will "waste boost" when the inlet and exhaust valves are open.
MAP pegging at 120 kPa indicates that

It may be running a faulty MAP sensor
It may be running an incompatible MAP sensor
It may be running an uncalibrated MAP sensor
The tune is limiting the maximum MAP reading to 120

Given it's locked to 120.000kPA, I'm thinking it's in the tune. Possibly B8034 is set to 120kPa
The log indicates that the engine was not up to running temp for the log. ECT starts at 70'C and only reaches 90'C 1/3 of the way into the second WOT run. This is also indicated from the STFT
Commanded minimum idle airflow looks to be very high


That's just a quick look at the log. Personally, I'd start from scratch and get a WB in there ASAP.

If you want to make life a little easier....


Log ETCTP and not SAE.TP: This will give you a true 0-100% reading for the throttle position.
Log E38.AFRATIO_DMA and not GM.AFR: The later does not work correctly in the E38 ECM
Log E38.INVLVTMP_DMA: Always, always log this on an E38. It is much more relative for fueling than ECT.
Log E38.OCTSCL_DMA: This will tell you where abouts your timing is in relation to the upper and lower timing tables.


Simon.

edit. RE: the MAF, It looks fine to me. I certainly wouldn't say that the MAF signal looked off when I compare it to my NA logs.

[minytrker]

I'll look at the tune once you post it and go from there. If you are not familiar with E38 and need help feel free to give me a call. I am about 1.5hrs away and I am usually in Houston or around Houston atleast once a week tuning.

[etmotorsports]

There was a wideband on it on the dyno, the af was safe around 11.5-12.0. I will logo those other paramaters swing thanks. here is the tune file.

8987

It is really amazing with those shtf that the car drives so well i can't believe it, compared to a ford or a dodge that would set off so many codes and cause popping and surges.

[swingtan]

Hmm....


B2101 is set to 128.125 while the standards are 94.429 for a 1bar sensor and 188 for a 2 bar. This setting may be wrong for the installed sensor ( which may be a 1 bar ).
The VVE has not been touched at all. This will need to be set up even if the MAF is going to be retained.
IAT's get nice and hot. An intercooler would be a good option, as would some fine tuning of the IAT spark table. the figures don;'t seem to add up at the moment and it might be that the ECM is not using this table correctly.


I'd be starting with fixing the MAP sensor issue, then dialing the VVE followed by fine tuning the MAF. Then I'd go on to the spark tables and idle control.

Simon

[etmotorsports]

there is an intercooler ahahahaha....the turbo and intercooler size do not match....rather comical considering the the people payed over 9k for the kit. Like i said i am not that experienced with the e38 it looks to me like they just set it too fuel on maf and hacked up the spark and ect act spark tables made alot of other changes that did nothing for the most part. But i wanted a more experience e38 person too look at it. I haven't looked at the map sensor to check the part # to see what it is. I really wanna drive it up to the shop that built it and ask them to make a pull there is no way it made 600 plus on pump gas at operating temperature and on 9 psi. I have seen the dyno sheet and video and all i can figure is they put in a bit of race fuel cranked the boost up and had a nice cool day below 70 degrees or so and low humidity. its odd too when you drive the car the torque is there you feel like it is gonna start really rolling but then it fades away, i can't see it on the data logs either but i will try with some of those other values to log like you said swing.

[etmotorsports]

The car has a built transmission and they told the owners it need to be tuned for the transmission, i didn't understand. I drove the car and it wouldn't go into manual mode, pluged in my scanner and reset all trans memory and it all worked just fine. Can't believe they paid 3K for built tranny and couldn't use manual mode until i hooked up to the car 6 months later i guess that is one reason they sold it.

[gmh308]

The car has a built transmission and they told the owners it need to be tuned for the transmission, i didn't understand. I drove the car and it wouldn't go into manual mode, pluged in my scanner and reset all trans memory and it all worked just fine. Can't believe they paid 3K for built tranny and couldn't use manual mode until i hooked up to the car 6 months later i guess that is one reason they sold it.

That tune is a real mess. Would recommend starting over again from stock and using it as a learning exercise if it is running so bad.


It is running the correct stock MAP calibration - so worthwhile checking if it has the stock MAP sensor. Am pretty sure these stock are 1.5 bar, but may also be a 2bar. If you are really at (wastegated) 17.5psi then a 2.5bar or the 3 bar factory MAP looks mandatory.
Is the cam it is running a specific VVT cam upgrade (like from MAST)? If so has the cam phasing been setup to their recommendation.
AFM is disabled, but has the AFM hardware been removed for the CAM swap or is the cam under ~0.550-0.560" lift.
Was it tuned with EFIlive or HPTuners originally? If HPt there may be other changes.
Injectors have had flow increased but has it been done correctly to the injector specs?
Intake manifold has had its volume decreased from 9590cc's down to 14cc's. Wierd. That'll potentially mess the dynamics/transient fueling up.
Speed limiter setup has been changed considerably. Best to leave this alone until the tune is done.
It has a fixed speed fuel pump but the previous tuner has tuned for a variable speed pump. (???)


May also be worth re-scaling the spark tables as they top out at 1.36g/cyl and you are seeing up to 1.8g/cyl. If you really are getting 1.7 - 1.8 at ~4600rpm. Too late to calc it out LOL. :)

Also odd that IAT gets up around 60 as ST points out, but it is not pulling 6 or 7 degrees of timing out at that point. But maybe I missed something. :)

Cheers :grin:

[etmotorsports]

I noticed it too it didn't pull the timing out for that temp range if you calculate it from the tables it should be pulling like 4-6 degrees, but the car feels like it is pulling it out, i was wondering if the data was wrong. As far as i know it was orginally tuned with efi live that company that built the car sells it on their website. The air temps are getting so hot because it is 99 degrees here and the intercooler is a tiny pre assembled one, to me it looks like a good upgrade for a mitsubishi or a honda but not a purpose built turbo car with a very large turbo.

[etmotorsports]

Here is a log i just did, ok no changes in the tune check plugs and wires, this morning cleared all learned parameter on the engine side and tranny side. Plugs and wire were all in good shape no changes other than clearing codes. RWHP came up to 490 and torque at 480. Pretty close considering dyno differences and air temp. Most of all the car made a full pull through rpm range sounded like it should and no up or down spikes in the Horsepower.The a/f was richer from 11.0-11.5. Still timing is higher than specified in the high low octane maps, I still think the tune needs to be redone correctly but i would like to see where the problem is.

8988

[swingtan]

Hang on a sec.....

Is this a twin turbo or a single ? I just looked at the last log fiale and there is a massive difference between the STFT's for each bank. I wonder if this is a single turbo set up and the O2's have been placed in the same spot and are not measuring their individual banks. In the early part of the log, STFT1 is +23% while STFT2 is +0.7. After the power runs, they are closer with only a 4% difference, but Bank 1 is still adding more fuel than bank 2. On the other hand, maybe the O2's were not quite up to temp for the run. There is something fishy going on there, I wonder if the LTFT's were shut off because of bad data from the NB O2's ?

Simon

[etmotorsports]

Yes i think it was the temp i just made another pull and the log shows the stft right there...it is a single turbo.

swingtan what could it be with the timing at 18 degrees i just don't see it really being at that high on the E38 does the data logged include the reductions for torque and air charge.

[swingtan]

SAE.SPARKADV displays the final commanded spark timing, taking in to account all spark modifiers for IAT, Torque Management, TC, etc. So it should be lower than 18' ( guessing a a bit ). Log the PID's I mentioned earlier as there may be some settings that are adding timing while others are removing it. Have there been any changes to the tune since it was last posted ?

Simon

[etmotorsports]

No have not touched the tune at all it is how it came into the shop. I tried to log all pids with spark but i didn't see that one i will check and log that one.

[swingtan]

Found the spark issue!

B5112: Fuel mixture spark correction. It's adding up to 13' of timing when going into PE mode, which looking at the data I have seems to be commanding 1.5EQ ????? That's 9.8:1 AFR for ULP, but PE is set for 10.1:1 or 1.46EQ, I'm not sure where the extra fuel is coming from, but it may be CAT protection working as an "adder" rather then an absolute limit.

I'd be setting B5112 to all "0". Also, the high and low spark tables are the same. This is usually done for the tuning process, but any one that leaves it like that for the street needs to re-learn their tuning principles..... the high and low tables are there for a reason, they should be used.

Simon.

[etmotorsports]

This was orginally around 3 or so why would you add that much timing on a turbo or blown application ever. That makes no sense.

[etmotorsports]

That explains what was going on, other logs from saturday the timing was where is should be in relation to the high low spk tables less air temp ect corrections. Now for the million dollar question what and how did it change from just clearing learn paramters. Here is a log from saturday and that table b5112 the correction is at 0. I don't know what could have changed the eq ratio.

8991

[fezz57]

my car was missfiring at full boost (10psi), very hard to notice, just a slight shake, try closing the gaps if they are standard.

cheers

[etmotorsports]

I tried plug gaps from .35 to .25 it seemed to be better at .25 but still a bit of a shake, it did make the best power at .25

[gmh308]

That explains what was going on, other logs from saturday the timing was where is should be in relation to the high low spk tables less air temp ect corrections. Now for the million dollar question what and how did it change from just clearing learn paramters. Here is a log from saturday and that table b5112 the correction is at 0. I don't know what could have changed the eq ratio.



David, what are you putting the improvements down to overall?

Cheers, Ian

[fezz57]

what size turbo are you using? wheel size ect. boost?
.25 gap should be ok, mine were .60 factory, .30 and standard NGK's was good for it.
another silly thing that happened to me was that the ignition leads were too close to the manifolds, melted slighty causing a miss-fire.

cheers

[mbsurfersc]

who built the car?

[BowlingSS]

How is the tunning going? Did you get the bugs worked out?

Bill

[etmotorsports]

I didn't change anything on the tuning of the car just plugs & fixed the wires from burning on the headers, which has seemed to make it more consistent, the customer took the car and i just got a map sensor for it a few weeks ago and the customer is bringing the car back this week to "re-tune" I don't think that it is gonna make any more power. He also wants a water meth system installed, which i have never seen much of a result from it. But that is what the customer wants. Here in 98 degree weather the car made 499 RWHP he took it to the place that built it just because he was curious it was 70 degree air and it made 640 RWHP, different dyno's and temp changes it seems reasonable i guess. I will update you guys on how the tune is coming.