2000 4.3 (test and learn truck)

[blindawg]

I have a 2000 S10 with a 4.3 and the black box computer. Everything is stock on it.

I'm learning this program and this is my personal truck so I'll be able to learn on it beings I'll drive it everyday and notice everything.

I don't have the tun. Off of it yet, but I'm just looking for suggestions for what to start with. What would you guys do first?

If I bump up the timming on everything a safe amount will I get better or worse gas mileage?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Is your S10 a standard or automatic ? 2WD or 4WD ? I take it you have downloaded EFILive and are running the software in “Demo mode”.

Your 2000 S10 V6 as you know uses the black box Vortec PCM. In the 2001 model year this changed to the LS1-B style PCM.

A “0411” swap, and an upgrade to a 2002 OS would give you the greatest tuning options. If improved fuel mileage is one of your primary goals, there is an option to enable Lean Cruise with the 2002 OS. You will find information about doing the “0411” swap on this forum - just enter “0411” or “0411 swap” in the search engine, a get ready to read for days ! Similar information is available on the forum regarding Lean Cruise.

Check out www.holdencrazy.com (http://www.holdencrazy.com/) for tunes that you can download, and use to get acquainted with the EFILive software.

There are a couple of tunes that may be of interest to you.

’99 Blazer 4 x 4 auto (OS 09365085) - black box Vortec tune
’02 S10 4 x 4 auto (OS 12212156) - LS1-B tune
“02 Sonoma 4 x 2 auto (OS 12212156) - LS1-B tune

Good luck …


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Thanks for that info.

yes ive got all the software downloaded and have used it on our jeep only for shift points and bummped the timming up. its a rockcrawler so thats all we need for now.

But my truck is 2wd auto, and is currently... obviously very P.O.ed at me because i have the V1.2 cord and for the current PCM that is in it (the black box you were talking about) i need the V2 cord. so it must have tripped the theft system because it will start up, and then die instantly.

is there anything i can do using the scan tool to fix this?

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

Sorry, I’m a little confused …..

The V1 should work on 2005 and older applications ….. including your S10. Obviously, given your post, you connected to the PCM.

Were you attempting to read / flash / log when the problem occurred ?


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

i was trying to read when it happened.
right after i posted last i went out and tried messing with it again and idk what i did, but everything is fine now, no truble codes or anything.

and i'm not sure why it wont connect to it to read it but i selected the "98-00 Vortec" computer and the picture was right and everything and it comes up with an error message saying "V2 cord is needed" and my buddy that does this is saying the same thing you are. what can i do to fix this?

Thanks everyone,
Branden

[Taz]

In the Scan Tool go to Edit\Properties\Connections …….. select the check box to “Scan for all cables” … and set your default to the V1 cable that you have.

Hopefully that helps …. I don’t have a V1 cable …. just a guess.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

that did not work.

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Taz, as an experiment, what would happen if he selected LS1B 99-08 Gen III for the controller (would that work at all)...?

[Taz]

Hello Joecar,

Not sure what would happen, I assume that portion of the software (PCM selection) is there to provide the correct interface for communications with various OEM programming code. The vehicle is supported ('00 S10 V6 Vortec), and the V1 should work with that platform.

I don't do black box Vortec tuning, and don't think I've ever tried to read that type of PCM - no first hand experience there.

To determine if it's a Vortec specific issue, Branden could trying reading an LS1-B PCM (truck / SUV / F-Y body). If that also failed, then it would point to a probable setup / configuration / licence issue.

Diagnosing this type of problem is not my particular area of expertise !


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Taz, as an experiment, what would happen if he selected LS1B 99-08 Gen III for the controller (would that work at all)...?

i tried that and it said the pcm was locked or something like that, and to select the "Try alt keys" option. i believe that is what tripped the theft, but not sure.

and i also tried what you suggested Taz. should i contact EFIlive directly to solve this?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[joecar]

I already did...

[ScarabEpic22]

You need a V2 for reading Vortec PCMs...

[joecar]

You need a V2 for reading Vortec PCMs...I had a closer look at the supported vehicles, and you're right Erik...

[ I can't see as good now as I could 20 or 30 years ago :doh2: ]

[Taz]

x 2 on the glasses !!! Knew the vehicle was supported, and knew V1 worked on 2005 and prior - just didn't check for exceptions !!

Thanks for the fresh set of eyes Erik !!

Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Well... This kinda blows my plan out of the picture.... Haha.
And I appriciate you guys finding this out. :cheers:

what would you guys suggest for me to do from here?

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

Upgrade to the V2 ......


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

thats about $300 right?

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

No, unfortunately, it's a little more than that...

V1->V2 upgrade (V1 purchased before Sept 18, 2006) (http://www.efilive.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_EFILive.tpl&product_id=56&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=56)
V1->V2 upgrade (V1 purchased after Sept 17, 2006) (http://www.efilive.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_EFILive.tpl&product_id=57&category_id=8&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=56)

When was your V1 purchased...?

[bai78]

Repin that S10 to a 12200411 pcm and use your V1 for both vehicles.

[ScarabEpic22]

The best alternative is do a 0411 swap and use your V1 to tune it that way. Save the $$ on a V2 upgrade (but its WAAAAY better than a V1 fwiw) and put it towards a 0411 PCM (50-75 bucks) and do a PCM swap. Better driveability and the 0411 is a LS1 PCM so you can run all the COSs.

[blindawg]

so after i get the 0411 PCM what do i do to install it? just take all the wires out of the old plug and put them in the 0411 plug? my dad has aldata access so i can get info for that. am i missing anything?

Thanks everyone,
Branden

[Taz]

You will need the PCM pinouts for your 2000 S10 V6 black box Vortec PCM and for a 2002 S10 V6 with an automatic transmission. Move the pins / wires one at a time from the Vortec PCM to the LS1-B (12200411) PCM.

There is a forum member that goes by “Lextech” - he seems to be our resident expert on the 0411 swap.

Once that is done, then full flash the 0411 PCM with a 2002 S10 V6 automatic 2 wheel drive tune.

Like the tune attached below …….


Regards,
Taz

9028

[blindawg]

Thank you taz and joecar, as well as everyone else.
i'll get that done tomorrow maybe. if not tomorrow then by the end of the week for sure.

Thanks again,
Branden

[FeetDry]

I looked into the swap a while back. (Black to 0411) I have the 0411, but never went forward with it. I have to deal with yearly emission ODB2 inspections. I'm not sure what would happen if the emission gear would fail me due the different ECM. I figure the system status (O2, cat, heater,....) would be same between the two. But I'm not sure if the emissions gear actually looks at what OS or ECM model is installed. Any comments?

[joecar]

They will always read the VIN.

In CA, if vehicle is later than 2005 then they read the calibration ID's/CVN's and may possibly compare them to a database (supplied by OEM).

[FeetDry]

The connectors are different between the 16263494 (Black) & the 12200411 PCM. I seem to recall the wire pins are different. That is, it will take more than removing it from one conn. and moving it to another. I believe the pins need to be changed.

Can you post the 2002 Vortec pinout?
I found these, but I'm not sure if the Vortec OS uses the same pinout.
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/353405-sequential-injection-gen-i-3.html
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/578050-0411-pcm-vcm-12200411-a.html

Do pinouts change between different OS's of the same PCM?

My stock info: PCM#: 16263494 BCC:CDND HrdWr: L35 "W" OS: 16265175

2002 was the last year the 4.3L VIN "W" was used.
The 0411 was used on the "W" from 2001-2002.
2003-2004 GM used the 4.3L VIN "X", with these PCMs: 12581565, 12576106.

[blindawg]

i'll know soon. i contacted lextech and he has the info i need. ill let ya know.

thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

I got the computer and plugs today, and..... It's gonna be a looooonnnnng satuday afternoon.
The pins are the same, but they are crimped on and only pull out the front of he plugs, so the only way I can see doing it is getting new pins crimped on after you switch plugs, or sodder each wire after u pull it out and place it where it needs to be. I'm probably gonna be soddering it. :-/
contact lextech for the pinout, he has it down to a science.

Thanks everyone,
Branden

[bai78]

Are you sure? Just lift the little plastic tab & push the pins out. There's no need to cut, crimp, & solder anything for a repin.

[joecar]

+1

Have a look at attached pics...

(Ignore the crimper; I'm not sure how that other tool would be used, but you don't need it)

[Taz]

Agree ….

No cutting or soldering required. No special tools required either. I use a small screwdriver or a pick to lift the plastic tabs, then pull the wire / pin assembly out from the back of the connector.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

:doh2:
i realized all this on friday as i started to lay everything out.... and boy oh boy am i glad i did.

i got it all repinned and plugged in the PCM and everything worked... except it wouldnt start. :bad:
so i grabbed my buddy's PCM out of his Yota (its a rockcrawler and it has the same drivetrain as my truck) and plugged that in. it fired right up. :hihi: so i did a full reflash from his tun and beings it is a crawler the shift-points are differient and for some reason it wouldnt shift out of overdrive. it stared there and stayed there.
then i got onto holden and downloaded a stock tun for a 2002 s10, flashed that onto the PCM and it works great.
there are two DTC and i can only remember one at the moment, and it was "generator F-terminal" The light on my gauges that is in the shape of a battery keeps turning on and off. i think there might be a problem there? :doh2: haha.
Any advice on how to fix it?

the pinout i got from Lextech was easily followed. there was a couple hang up's, but nothing a little trial and error couldnt fix.
it was amazingly simple for anyone else who is wanting to try it.


any suggestions on what to change first? im looking for better MPG, im geting about 16 now. power would be nice too. :grin:

i appriciate all the time and effort you guys have given to answereing my questions.
in about four and a half years we can :cheers: but untill then, a thanks is all i can offer.

Thanks,
Branden

[bai78]

You will have to change that "Generator F-terminal" (P1638) to "not reported" as opposed to "non emissions" in the engine diagnostics/DTC/MIL. That will get rid of the light & code.

Also, if you go into System>Vehicle Platform>Vehicle Platform Options you can set that "Alternator F Terminal" to "No" instead of "Yes".

Is it the other code a P1336 for the CASE relearn?

Let us know what the other DTC is so we can assist.

[joecar]

...
Also, if you go into System>Vehicle Platform>Vehicle Platform Options you can set that "Alternator F Terminal" to "No" instead of "Yes".
...blindawg, the table id for this is G1207... this table is indexed by G1206.

[joecar]

I wonder what was causing the no-start...?

[bai78]

...i got it all repinned and plugged in the PCM and everything worked... except it wouldnt start. :bad:
so i grabbed my buddy's PCM out of his Yota (its a rockcrawler and it has the same drivetrain as my truck) and plugged that in. it fired right up. :hihi: so i did a full reflash from his tun and beings it is a crawler the shift-points are differient and for some reason it wouldnt shift out of overdrive. it stared there and stayed there.
then i got onto holden and downloaded a stock tun for a 2002 s10, flashed that onto the PCM and it works great....


I wonder what was causing the no-start...?

Silly question, was the 411 flashed over with the appropriate OS/calibration before you fired it up? Also, what OS/calibration is in your friends rock crawler pcm?

[Taz]

Nicely done … good work troubleshooting the unforeseen issues (that always seem to pop up !). You mentioned fuel mileage as an area you would like to concentrate on. Let me know what OS you ended up using – I’m assuming 12212156. I should have a Lean Cruise (LC) *.cax file that will work. Add in a Holden tune as a reference for the initial parameters in B3634 - B3638, and values in tables B3639 & B3646 - and you’re good to go.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

bai78,
Fixed that code, thanks for the help.
There is no relearn code. i was pretty excited bout that.
and the other DTC is U1000 "Class 2 data link" out of the inflatable restraint module (i have my passenger air bag turned off on the dash, would that be the cause?)
when it wouldnt start I hadn't flashed anything on it, it was suppose to be a computer out of a 2001 s10, so i figured it was worth a try.
My buddy's tun- 9080

Taz,
yes that is my OS. im not understanding what you are saying about LC .cax file though...
where do i get the holden tun for those paramiters?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Braden,

If you want, send me a PM with your email address, and I'll forward you the necessary files and instructions. Don't want to "hijack" this thread into a CAX file discussion !

It may be helpful to you to read through some of the threads in the CAX file portion of the Forum, to understand how / when Lean Cruise functions, and how to enable it.

I will also include an explanation in the information I send you.

Regards,
Taz

[bai78]

I wouldn't worry about hijacking, it's his thread anyways. :grin:

[blindawg]

i agree. :cheers:

i understand what LC is and a little of how it works, but you said put in holden info to get started. where is the holden info? the tun that is on it now is from holden, does that work? im shooting blanks here. :help2:

Thanks guys,
Branden

[blindawg]

Ok, went to emporia yesterday ( about a 120 mile round trip) and I realized cars were flying past me as I was doing 70mph... So I flipped ip the GPS and it said I was doing 63-65. So when we got there I entered in my tire size and that fixed that problem.
I scanned the DTC because my check engine light was flashing on the way down there.
Here's what I got:
P0128-ECT below threshold ( I have a fail-safe thermostat that will stay open if it goes bad, would that be the problem?)
P0327-knock sensor low freaquency bank 1
P0300-Missfire detected
P1381-missfire dectected-no communication with break control module


What do ya think guys?

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

P0128: if your TS stays open, then the engine may not be reaching operating temp in the prescribed time, so yes maybe the fail-safe TS is doing this.
P0300: random cylinder number misfires; perform a crank relearn and see if this comes back.
P0327: something wrong with one of the knock sensor signals, check KS and sub-harness for corrosion/water.
P1381: PCM detected possible misfires, but it want to see if the ABS controller thinks the road is "rough" in which case the PCM dismisses the misfires.

Have a read thru these, follow these procedures to properly diagnose the causes:
P0128 = http://www.gearchatter.com/viewtopic9378.php
P0327 = http://www.gearchatter.com/viewtopic9363.php
P0300 = http://www.gearchatter.com/viewtopic9365.php
P1381 = http://www.gearchatter.com/viewtopic9331.php

If you want to see wire diagrams, also look up those DTC's for the 2000 F-body.

[Lextech]

Did you set table B1402 to Resonant? Your truck has a resonant KNK sensor but, the 02 V6 S10 uses a Flat Response sensor and the tune needs to be set to Resonant.

Jeff

[blindawg]

joecar,
is there a tourtorial for how to perform the crank relearn?

Lextech,
i just changed that, and ill let ya know if it fixed anything later tonight.

Thanks for the help guys, i'd be compleatly lost without ya.
Branden

[joecar]

Crank relearn: showthread.php?10764-crank-relearn (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?10764-crank-relearn)

Also see scantool user manual for more info.

[Taz]

Scan Tool user manual - pages 152 & 153 for CASE ... FYI


Regards,
Taz

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Just posted the below in another thread ... seems like a common issue ... users not aware where to find manuals / tutorials ..

Manuals and Tutorials were probably downloaded to C:\Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Doc\Tutorials - there should be a about a dozen *.pdf files.

When I first started with EFILive I printed these out, and organized them in a binder - it's about 6 inches thick !! I still use it frequently ... also worthwhile to invest the time in reading them all ... just to fully understand the scope of the software.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

changing it to rosonant has seemed to fixed the problem with the knock sensor, but would doing the CASE hurt it?

and ill check the TS tomorrow to see if its stuck open.

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Doing CASE won't "hurt" anything - as long as it is done correctly. Your thermostat is a 195 F degree correct ? Confirm that your S10 has a normal operating temperature of at least 180 F degrees - 195 F degree would be a more efficient normal operating temperature, given one of your tuning goals - increased fuel economy.

Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

i did the relearn, Wow that was easy. haha. thanks Joecar

taz,
thats correct.

new problem...
so ive been putting around town and such and ive noticed that the RPM is lower at cruising speed than it used to be. so i hooked it up to the scantool and it said 2000RPM while my Tach says 1500. so i reved it up and it would hit 4000 on my tach and shut down because of the rev limmiter. so i looked at the tun and the RL is set at 5600.

is there a way of calibrating the tach?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

What are your G1204 & G1205 values ?


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

1 and 1

Branden

[Taz]

OK ... that's the correct output for 2001 and up S10 and Express van with low resolution (3x / 4x) CKP - these models used a Tach setup to receive a 4 cylinder signal. Your 2000 Tach may be setup to receive a 6 cylinder signal - not sure.

There are no Tach settings in your original OS - makes me believe in the original configuration the signal to the Tach may not have been modified by the PCM.

Try changing the values in G1204 & G1205 to 2 (must be the same) and see if there is an improvement in Tach accuracy - if there is, then fine tune these values (ie. 3, 4, etc).

If no improvement, or getting worse, check original wiring diagrams - directly wiring an additional Tach output (not through the PCM) may be another option.

Never worked with the L35 / LU3 V6 ... may want to check with Lextech.

Regards,
Taz

[FeetDry]

Just catching up,...
The stock 2000 came w/ a 195 Tstat.
The alternator field control is internal. The only connection (other than the big output line) is the status line. The "B" terminal goes to the VCM and sends a signal to the dash to turn ON the idiot light.
The RPM signal could come from the crank position sensor or the camshaft position sensor.

Is there a locking tab on the pins, or do they slide right out of the connector? (Take apart the connector and they fall out?)
Can I get you to send me the pin-out and CAX info?

I'd like to do the mod as well, but it is my daily driver. I can only offer anicdotal info at this point.

[Taz]

Hello FeetDry,

The following comments are not intended to be rude, but to set out a little decorum.

The Forum is intended to assist members with using the EFILive software. From time to time many of us go well beyond that, as we genuinely want to help others – often to the extreme of consulting “start to finish” on a project the individual could never have completed on their own.

This level of “help” may sometimes cause tension with those who make their living offering such services for remuneration.

I can’t speak for Lextech – but I believe he has never posted 0411 swap pinouts or a “how to” tutorial. This causes me to believe he considers this information “intellectual property”. I also believe Lextech has never failed to help Forum members, but does so privately, and on an individual basis.

So, regarding the 0411 swap pinouts and information – please PM Lextech and pursue the information through that avenue.

Me – I offer direct comments intended to assist, and also direct Forum members to pre-existing threads that will provide insight into solving issues on their own – by self educating.

I’ve run a successful business in the industry for a quite some time - but I rarely work for free. If I choose to provide a Forum member with additional instruction or support, beyond the Forum, that support is intended not to be published, distributed, or retransmitted without my expressed authorization.

In Branden’s case, he’s 16 and just starting out - and reminds me of myself a very long time ago - so I’ll donate a day of my time for his benefit, for personal reasons.

So when you make a passing comment like “Can I get you to send me the pin-out and CAX info?” – I get a little annoyed - as it fails to acknowledge the magnitude of the work involved, and the intellectual ownership of the material.


Regards,
Taz

[FeetDry]

Hello Taz,

Your comments are duely noted.
I am also new to this, and look at the forum as an exchange of idea's and information. It is only through the sharing of knowledge that the subject can be advanced. Without the help of people that know more about it than I, I'm sure I won't attempt the change. Just knowing the connector pins are compatible between connectors is a big help. This simple bit of knowledge will save me hours of work. I hardly think the pinout of the PCM is intellectual property, and I'm not sure what CAX is. If you choose not to share for what ever reason I'm OK with that. But I suggest you would not be able to tune like you do, without the help of the forum. I was simply making a request for shared information.

Branden,
Rather than put you in the hot seat, I formally recind my request for the above noted info. Please continue to share your experiance, as I'm sure it will help me when I do mine. I probably won't get a chance to touch it until the end of the semseter, but I will help from my end, if I can.

Regards,
FeetDry

[Taz]

Feetdry,

The point of my comment is simple – ask the source of the information directly, if they would be willing to share it.

Regarding the concept of “intellectual property” …

Greg Banish – doesn’t offer free tuning classes
Howell Engine Development – doesn’t tell you how they tune their PCMs

Lextech would have had to purchase the manuals for both vehicles involved in the 0411 swap, read them, then came up with a spreadsheet of what pin gets moved where – Lextech “owns” that spreadsheet as intellectual property.

From time to time I may donate some of my time to others – like deciding which charities I support through financial contributions – the choice occurs at the individual level – and the understanding between myself and the recipient of that support, is that I retain control over that intellectual property, as it was provided “pro bono” – no charge.

The upside to having professionals as Forum members is the potential depth of resources, the downside is that at some point the sharing of information collides with “intellectual property” or information proprietary to conducting business.

There is a sticky in the Conversions / Aftermarket Parts forum titled “PCM Conversion Information”. The bulk of that information is from my database – which I shared freely. Joecar posted a request for submission of relevant information in all related forum areas – no other professional responded – period.

I share more than most other professionals seem to, and will continue to do so. The forum is setup with PM (personal messaging) for good reason – I encourage you to make appropriate use of it.


Regards,
Taz

[joecar]

Ok, I got a pm assuring that discussion is intended to be polite and respectful (written text loses human element) with apologies offered if problems were caused.


There are good points to both sides...

I understand if a professional does not share information, they invested time/money to research/develop the information, they own it plain and simple (not to mention their business survival may depend on it).

Some professionals post their information on the forum making it available to all, this is voluntary on their part, and we are grateful to them.

A person may need some information and does not have the time/money/resources to research the info...
the best thing is to ask if it's already on the forum, and if it isn't then to ask who may know about it, and to contact them directly.

[blindawg]

well... Feetdry,
the pins were held into place by locking tab, and were easilly switched.
the swap was easy as pie, Lextech helped out alot. just ask him for the info. i was very appricitive because it really was put together nicely and looked like he spent some time on it. he was even open to suggestions i gave him about a certain peice of it.
it took me... maybe 3 hours of beign suppppper carefull to finish everything and be operational.

no hard feelings sir.

Taz,
i changed the values and it got worse. :doh2:
so i put it back at 1 and 1 for now untill i have more time to contact Lextech to see if he can shed some light on it.
Also, i do appriciate all the effort you, joecar, Lextech, and anyone else on the fourm have put forth to help me. as i will try to always write Thanks at the end of my posts becasue you guys are my only source of information, and i know you guys are only doing this by choice. im looking forward to doing the same as i get to be more knowlageable. as for now, and for a while ill be using the :help2: smily.

Joecar,
:cheers: in about 4 years.



so ive worked out all the bugs except the tach and the cruise not working.
Tach:
Its out of calibration or something like that as noted above.
Cruise:
ever since i first tried reading the program off my truck with the black box computer the cruise doesnt work. the fuse is fine, the pin is in the correct slot on the new PCM. (it did it before i swapped them anyways, just trying to eliminate possibilities) I dont know what else to check. any suggestions? :help2: (told ya)


Thanks everyone,
Branden

[Taz]

Tach - hopefully Lextech has a "work around" for you. I don't generally work on the V6. The only thing I can think of is to either wire a direct Tach feed (from the coil) or install a resistor in the wire currently going to the Tach (to reduce output).

Cruise - doesn't go through the BCM, so that's not the problem. On V8 trucks, the PCM interfaces with a cruise module on the firewall (similar to the TAC module for DBW) ... wondering if you need a cruise module from a 2001 - 2002 S10 to properly communicate with the PCM. .... check with Lextech ....

Regards,
Taz

[Lextech]

Blindawg,
I got your PM. I don't have an answer for your tach error.

Everyone,
I am not a GM technician or a business owner. I am a Lexus technician and a hotrodder. I like to mess around in the garage after work when I get the chance. I did the 12200411 PCM swap to my truck several years ago and have had more requests for help than I can count. I don't own ANY of these vehicles--Only my 98 GMC. I do my best to help out when I can but, I do not have all of the answers.

Jeff

[blindawg]

tach:
It uses the formula P=24/(N*2) where P=output pulses, and N=value i can change.
Sample values for this calibration:
For 12 pulses, use N= 1
For 6 pulses, use N= 2
For 4 pulses, use N= 3
For 3 pulses, use N= 4
For 2 pulses, use N= 6
For 1 pulse, use N=12

this being said, the lower N value i use, the more Pulses are produced.
when i entered in higher N values the difference in what the Tach was saying and what was acually happening became greater. (tach went from being around half of what the RPM actually was, to barely moving when i increased N)
so wouldn't adding a resistor make the problem worse?

Cruise:
it started doing this before i even did the swap. only thing ive checked is the fuse on the side of the dash. is there a relay or another fuse someplace else?

Lextech,
Thanks for the response, and now i understand your Name. :doh2:
no worries, we'll get it figured out and let you know. :hihi:
Thanks again for sharring what you do know.

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Tach - given your description of the changes you tried with the tune, doesn't seem like the answer to the correct Tach outout is in the tune - reset the values to "1" - to get some output. Again, I don't work on the V6, but it would seem the low resolution reluctor (3x on the V6) and your 2000 instrument cluster, combined with the 2002 tune - aren't directly compatible.

I would try running a direct feed from the coil to the Tach - most cost effective approach. Yes, a resistor is most often used to reduce Tach pulses, and looks like yours needs to be increased 25% to 33% (from PCM to Tach). There are inline options (same type of installation as a resistor) from suppliers like Dakota Digital that would probably work - just costs a like more - I would try wiring it directly first.

Cruise - multifunction switch on the column has an "on / off" switch and momentary switches (spring loaded) - confirm continuity of these. From memory - not at home this week - cruise has "key on" power, and 2 brake switches - one sends power to PCM when brakes are NOT on, the other sends power when brakes are applied - check these.

Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

which wire do i use from the coil to go to the tach?
also, i pulled the tach output from the PCM and fired it up to assure i pulled the right one, and it fired up and stumbled, then died. i started it again and gave it gas, it fired up and ran but when i let off the gas it died. so i figured it kinda needed the wire there to run properly. so i got back out and looked at the coil and unplugged both plugs and looked at the wires to try and figure out the answer to the above question myself by compairing it to the pin out, but no luck. so i plugged the two plugs back into the coil (the tach output is still un pluged) and started it again just for the heck of it. runs just as it did before i removed the tach output. do i need to have it plugged in or will it run safely the way it is?

Thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

so i realized i could use a test light to check the wires. :doh2:
ran a wire from the coil to the tach output, and now when the tach says 3000 im really only turning 2000. i went for a drive, and it was shifting funky so i came back and plugged the scantool in and the long term fuel trims were at like 57 on both banks, and injector duty cycle was at 127%!!! i shut it down and unhooked the wire i had just ran and scaned it again, everything was back to normal. so i hooked the wire back up and and scaned it again, still normal. took it around the block, still normal.
any ideas as to what happened?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[joecar]

The tach wire changed the electrical characteristics (voltage) of the signal to the PCM, so the PCM was mis-reading it... the signal was sufficient to still fire the ingition coil.

[blindawg]

but why did it go back to normal even when i reconnected the tach?
or was that the answer to the first question?

Thank you sir,
Branden

[joecar]

That was the answer to the first question... and I don't know why is the answer to the second question. :)

[Taz]

To recap:

When Tach is receiving a signal from PCM output:

Tach indicates 1500 RPM - while measured engine speed is 2000 RPM
values of G1204 & G1205 are set to “1” - any increase in these values causes the Tach to read even less than before

When the Tach is receiving a signal directly from the coil:

Tach indicates 3000 RPM - while measured engine speed is 2000 RPM


Well, this doesn’t make any sense to me.

Given that when the Tach receives a direct signal from the coil, it reads 50% too high (3000 vs 2000), it is receiving 50% more cylinders than its calibration - in other words the Tach in the cluster is calibrated for a 4 cylinder input (given the current 6 cylinder engine).

The PCM calibration should output a 4 cylinder Tach signal - but this isn’t working accurately either.

Only two options I can think of:

If the truck runs OK with the Tach output wire removed from the PCM (C2 pin 20 - I think) - wire this to the coil with a resistor in line to reduce the signal.

If the truck for some reason requires the Tach output connected to the PCM - you will have to wire an adapter (from Dakota Digital, etc.) in line to increase the signal to the Tach


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

haha. thanks Joecar.

it will run correctly with that pin in. (you were close, C2 pin 10)
where would i get a resistor for that?
and yes, im baffeled as well. is there anything i could do to my tun. or OS to have it just go through the PCM?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[blindawg]

so i havent fixed the tach, but i have a good idea of what its actually turning compaired to what it says so i'll leave that alone because im going to be putting the 5.3 in anyways and will adress it then
and with the 5.3 i will have DBW, which will solve my cruise control problem as well.

i have questions about it though, is it it's own harness or does it tie into the engine harness after the TAC? i know the whole point of the DBW is to somewhat delay the signal to save on gas, but can i make it be just as fast as what the throttle cable would be by adjusting the tun?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

S10s work very well with a V8 - and a Gen III is readily adaptable. The Gen III engine wiring harness can be grafted into the existing S10 harness, and the Gen III PCM can be used solely (no 4.3 L PCM) in that type of installation.

You can also setup the powertrain as a separate wiring harness and controller - retaining the 4.3L PCM to operate some functions.

DBC is an easier swap - as the S10 is already setup as DBC. If using a DBW setup, you will also require an APP (electronic accelerator pedal) and TAC module - plus applicable wiring harnesses.

DBW was used for ease of “packaging” engines in various platforms - no throttle cable route / angularity issues. DBW also lends itself to an easy interface with traction control and cruise control systems. The rate of throttle opening can be very similar to a DBC system. I don’t believe there is any real difference in fuel economy between comparable DBC and DBW powertrains.

Take a look at Current Performance Wiring’s website. They have some overview information about integrating the wiring harnesses in this type of conversion. A link is below ….

http://www.currentperformance.com/s10wir.html



Happy Holidays,
Taz

[blindawg]

well the motor i bought is a 2001 5.3 with 152k on it.
i already did the 0411 swap so i dont need to worry about the different harness for the trans.
i'll be making my own harness from the 5.3 engine harness and grafting it like you said.
We just got done switching cabs of an 04 duramax (it had been rolled) and so i ended up with the APP and TAC off of it. will this work for me or do i need it engine specific?
i know the DBC will be easier, but i think DBW will work out better for me.

on the Fuel econemy part of it, correct me if im wrong, but i think they use it as a delay/ progressive tool. say you step on the gas 75% throttle, with the DBC you're at 75% throttle instantly, but the DBW it progresses it to reach 75%. it progresses fast, but its still a delay, which saves on gas. i dont think it's gonna gain you 5 more MPG, but it along with all the other features in the Gen IV will get you that MPG gain.

Thanks Taz, always helpful and its very apriciated. merry christmas.
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Sounds like you’re in for an adventure !

It has not been my experience that there is any appreciable difference in fuel economy between comparable DBW and DBC configurations.

Regarding compatible APP and TAC modules ….

Your current PCM (0411) is a 512Kb LS1-B style. The only Gen III V8 DBW calibration compatible with that PCM is from a 2002 Escalade / Yukon that was originally equipped with DBW. The only compatible APP / TAC modules are the 2002 variety - which can often be difficult to obtain at a reasonable cost. You may also need a 2002 DBW throttle body.

The 2003 to 2007 Gen III V8 PCMs were the 1Mb LS1-B style.

If memory serves, I think:

2003 - 2005 APP / TAC / TB are mutually compatible
2006 - 2007 APP / TAC / TB are mutually compatible

This is just from memory, and may not be 100% accurate.

To use the 2004 APP / TAC that you mentioned will require the use of a 1Mb LS1-B PCM and compatible calibration.


Happy Holidays,
Taz

[blindawg]

Taz, an adventure is what we aim for. :hihi:

The Veriable Valve timing, displacement on demand, and the DBW all play a part in the fuel mileage. and please correct me if i'm wrong, i'm only assuming and not trying to tell you whats what. i know you know more than i do. :)

Would you suggest swapping in the 1Mb computer to use the ACC and TAC i have now, along with all the newer calibrations that come along with that PCM? or would it be better to find the APP and TAC that will be compatiable to the 2002 Escalade / Yukon calibration?

Thank you sir,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

To me projects are never about who knows what … it’s more important that the end result meets (or exceeds) expectations, and that finances are used effectively.

It’s your truck - you have to build it in the way that will please you. I just point out options, so that you can consider what additional parts and expenses may be encountered along the way.

You are correct that enhancements like VVT (variable valve timing) and AFM (active fuel management) may augment both power output and fuel economy. Your 2001 5.3 L has neither of these.

If you look at the EPA rated fuel economy of a similarly equipped 2002 DBC 5.3 L pickup, and a 2003 DBW 5.3 L pickup - there is little variance. DBW in and of itself is not a fuel saver. Your analogy of rapid versus slower throttle blade movement could indeed cause “wasted” fuel in a carbureted engine - as accelerator pumps, transition circuits, and the “secondary” (4 barrel) venturis could be activated. The OEM tune in a Gen III V8 has a PE delay built in (some people zero these out for a more crisp throttle response) - which helps to lessen the effect of an oscillating throttle blade.

Enough said on that I think …

With respect to your S10 - the most cost effective approach is a DBC setup. The S10 is DBC, and the 2001 5.3 L is DBC.

If you want a DBW setup - go for it - they work well. A 2002 DBW setup would retain your existing PCM - but require a 2002 APP, TAC, and TB. The 2004 APP and TAC you have would require a compatible TB and a 1Mb LS1-B PCM.

Either setup should work equally well - it comes down to cost and availability of the required components.

You mentioned the APP and TAC you have were from a 2004 Duramax (diesel). I don’t know if diesel pickups used the same APP and TAC as their gasoline fed brethren - you will need to confirm this, so that you are better able to make a cost effective decision.

I know you’re still in school, and that brings with it a frugal budget. My hope is that once you decide on the setup you want, the rest of us could provide assistance as to what is / is not required - so that you don’t encounter unnecessary duplicity in expenditures.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

i ment you know more about the topic than i do. and i appriciate your knowlage and willingness to share it.

i am aware that my motor is the Gen III, and has none of the gen IV features. i do want it to be DBW, and i have gathered this:

i have an APP, TAC, and the harness for between the two off of an 04 truck. i did some research and everything im reading is saying that there is no difference between gas and diesel.
i am going to need the TB and the harness between it and the TAC.

i have the 12586242 PCM, and the connectors for it. i'm pretty sure i can get the pinouts i need for the swap. only thing is, i have already spent money to get a licence for the 0411, i would have to buy a new one correct?

Thank you sir,
Branden

[Taz]

Sounds like you’re off to a good start ! Nice to know the APP and TAC are the same between gas & diesel applications - I don’t do any work with diesel trucks.

The new PCM (12586242) you have is a 2004 vintage DBW 1Mb LS1-B style - it should work just fine.

Yes, you will require another licence to tune the new PCM.

Did you get a transmission with your 5.3 L ? What transmission are you thinking of using in the conversion ?


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

i'm going to use the stock 4L60e that's in the truck now.
This is what i would like to use, but not going to happen untill mine dies:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TCI-271600 one hell of a price tag. :doh2:

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

With some upgrades your V6 4L60E should hold up behind a stock 5.3 L - if used as a daily driver. If you plan on towing its days are numbered.

There are couple of areas to address ….

The valve body of the V6 4L60E differs from the V8 versions. One of these differences is the PCS (Pressure Control Solenoid). V6 4L60Es produce a maximum line pressure of 192 PSI. The V8 versions max out at 223 PSI.

I always use a TransGo HD-2 kit in 4L60Es - and would highly recommend using it, a Corvette 2nd gear servo, and a billet or “super hold” 4th gear servo. Those modifications should allow your transmission to survive behind the 5.3 L.

Also, you will need to confirm if the case of your 4L60E is a Gen I or a Gen III variant - it’s probably a Gen I style. If it is, this will necessitate using a different flexplate, a spacer, and longer flexplate bolts. Gen III V8s that came with a 4L80E had this setup from the factory. These parts can be obtained through GM or the aftermarket.

Also, it is doubtful that V6 convertor will bolt up to the Gen III flexplate. Some modifications will probably be necessary.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

What is the gains of using the shift kit and the 2nd and 4th gear servo?
Do i need to change the PCS to the V8? (if i dont, is that even possible? Automatic transmission internals confuse me)
How do i know if it's a Gen I or III? is it i the VIN?

From the factor my truck had a sticker on the rear bumper that said: "Warning: do not tow with this vehicle" so even if i wanted to, no towing. :p

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

If you have no plans to tow with your truck - the transmission will last longer. I have never seen the sticker that you described on a Canadian registered S10 – maybe it’s a USA requirement. You shouldn’t tow without a proper receiver hitch – maybe the sticker refers to mounting a tow ball directly on the bumper – who knows.

Properly equipped S10s of your vintage could have a factory tow rating of 4000 to 6000 pounds.

Enough about that …

Your V6 4L60 was not designed to have a V8 in front of it - the torque rating is lower. Using a shift kit assists by mechanically increasing the pressures in the transmission. When a 4L60 is in 2nd gear and 4th gear the band holds the drum from turning - the upgrade / aftermarket servos increase the holding force that the band exerts on the drum (increases the torque threshold prior to slipping beginning).

You cannot simply change out the PCS – that reference was intended as one example of the differences between V6 and V8 application 4L60 transmissions.

It may end up being more cost effective to purchase a good used 4L60 that was designed to be used behind a Gen III V8.

Gen I and Gen III style transmissions will both “bolt up” to a Gen III block – although you may have one unused bolt hole. The difference is where the convertor snout interfaces with the crankshaft flange / flexplate. The Gen III crankshaft flange is just under a half inch (0.400 inches) closer to the block, as compared to a Gen I V8 crankshaft flange.

If your transmission is a Gen I variant (highly probable), the requisite spacer (from GM or aftermarket) fills this 0.400 inch gap. The requisite flexplate leaves the Gen III starter location unaltered, and is the correct shape (flat) to work with spacer / convertor.

You can’t tell any of this from your VIN - you will need to take some measurements once you have the V6 4L60 out of the S10.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Mine is and Extreme, that might be why? :confused: but i was never wanting to tow with it, just cruise and have power at the ready. :hihi:

is this the shift kit you ar referring to? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRG-4L60E-HD2/

if thats the kit, i think the $200 spent on this transmission would be a good starting point. but then again maybe the V8 trans would be better, i'll keep an eye open for one and if i get a good deal i'll deffinetly jump on it. Thanks for the explination. :)

Is taking masurments the only way of telling?

Thnaks Taz,
Branden

[ScarabEpic22]

Ive had great success buying Vette servos and parts from www.oregonperformancetransmission.com.

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

The link you posted to the Summit Racing website is indeed the TransGo 4L60E-HD2 kit.

I would recommend the following for your (or any) 4L60E:

TransGo 4L60E-HD2 shift kit - $77.95 from Summit Racing (TRG-4L60E-HD2)
TransGo 2nd gear Corvette servo - $20.95 from Summit Racing (TRG-7-2P)
TransGo separator plate - $19.95 from Summit Racing (TRG-46-PLT-96)

I always replace the separator plate (only $20) while I have the valve body apart. I find the holes in the separator plate, where the check balls are located, often wear in an oval shape and will allow a small amount of fluid bypass (when there should be no flow) – or the check ball may actually become lodged in the separator plate hole, completely preventing fluid flow (when fluid flow may be required).

The servo for 4th gear is a little more costly. The most cost effective of these is:

JET Performance - $74.96 from Summit Racing (JET-750213)

I have used the JET Performance 4th gear servo in a “daily driver” with OK results – it is not my first choice, but it is the most cost effective option that I know.

The above parts total $193.81 (not including applicable taxes and shipping).

The flexplate and spacer I mentioned previously can be purchased from many sources. If you checkout www.gmcopo.com (http://www.gmcopo.com/) – the spacer is part # 1X327200 ($54.95), and the flexplate with appropriate bolts is part # 1X366100 ($149.95). These total $204.90 (not including applicable taxes and shipping).

The combined total of the above parts is $398.71 (not including applicable taxes and shipping) – just to reuse your high mileage V6 4L60E transmission behind the 5.3 L Gen III.

A good used 4L60E that was designed to be used with a Gen III V8 may end up being a more reasonable option.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Thanks for the recomendation Eric.

I didnt even think about the Flexplate or spacer, Taz. And after adding that all up i think you are right about finding the V8 trans. would i have to make any upgrades on the trans if i went that route?
on a side note, i'm reading on another forum and his s10 is a 98 and his all bolted up to his trans no problem. so i'm thinking i should be fine. but i'll still be looking for a good deal on a V8 trans.

Thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

i was driving around town today and started thinking about getting rid of first gear on some occasions, beings its such a low gear, and it seems like it takes forever to shift out of, why not get rid of it in low stress situations to save on fuel? my only worry is what it will do to the trans itself. is this a bad idea?

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Take a look at D0901 (1>2 PT upshift speeds) and D0906 (2>1 PT downshift speeds).

You could delay the downshift from 2nd to 1st by setting the 0% to 75% TP in D0906 to a low number (ie 10 MPH) – the table in your tune may already appear similar to this.

Likewise, you could hasten the upshift from 1st to 2nd by setting the 0% to about 31% TP in D0901 to a low number (ie. 13 MPH) – these numbers must be greater than the numbers in the same cell in D0906 – to maintain upshift / downshift parity.

Configure it to suit your needs – it should work just fine – as the higher %TP are unchanged, you could still accelerate quickly when needed.

These same principles apply for all shift speeds – you could also alter the low %TP values for the 3>4 and 4>3 shifts to get into 4th gear sooner / at a lower speed.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

is this hard on the transmission though?

Thnaks,
Branden

[joecar]

Typically, shifting at lower speeds is easier on the trans.

[blindawg]

This makes sense now that I think about it. But what about the motor? Will I be lugging it too much?

Thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

The pin for "cruise control engaged" on the 0411, all that wire does is send a signal to use a different shift table, correct?
Random i know, just looking over the pin out and trying to know how everything works.

Thnaks,
Branden

[Taz]

The “Cruise Control Engage Signal” is often C2 (RED) pin 13 with a Gen III “0411” PCM. That’s my understanding, that this circuit activates the cruise shift tables in the PCM.

This wire is “grounded” when the circuit is active. On vehicles that are not equipped with cruise control, a simple switch (to ground) should give you access to another shift table.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Thank you sir.
Branden

[blindawg]

another puestion on the DBW setup,
can i use DBW on a gen 3? ive been reading and reading and it is still unclear to me. i know if i had a gen 4 i would have to go DBW, which isnt a problem, but is it the same situation with the gen 3's needing to be DBC?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

I think you may be a little confused regarding the Gen III / Gen IV distinction. Take a look at this thread …

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14200-PCM-Conversion-Information

The chart in post #60 contains the most current information available.

Generally, Gen IVs arrived in the 2007 model year (2006 for Corvette, 2008 for Express / Savana, etc.)

All Gen III V8 truck engines (except 8.1 L) - model years from 1999 to early 2007 - can use a DBC or DBW setup. Gen IV are DBW only.

Gen III DBC and DBW systems can use either the 512Kb or 1Mb LS1-B PCM. The 1Mb DBW setup is more cost effective (as it was widely used, and is more readily available).


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

i read that and its cleared up now. thanks for the explination.
bad news-
i've totalled everything up for the swap and came to the realization that it wont get done untill next winter. Dreams only get you so far untill you see the bill. haha.

Good news-
Dad picked up a 2002 6.0 for the jeep last friday, we are gonna throw it in tomorrow leaving the 5.3 that was in it to me for my truck. its an 04 5.3 with an LS1 cam and yellow springs in it. other than that its stock. that's one obsticle down.

other news-
Taz:
ive been reading and reading and reading for this swap, and ive seen that the newer s10's had a 7K tach in the manuals, which usually had the 4 cyl in front of them. i'm running the 03 tun if i remember correct. would this have anything to do with my tach issue? just a thought.

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

In full size trucks of similar model years the Tach signal is a direct line to the IPC from the PCM (assuming this is the same with your S10). This means that the IPC programming should not affect the Tach readout.

The problem with the Tach readout in your truck seems to be in programming the Tach output from the PCM to the IPC. The values of G1204 & G1205 (Tach pulses) must be a whole number, and cannot be less than 1.

There is a lot of latitude for tuning the Tach output with a Gen III 24x CKP, but not much with your V6 Vortec 3x CKP. When you install a Gen III V8 you should be able to accurately program the Tach output. With your current V6, you may have to use an inline device to get an accurate Tach signal.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Ok. I didnt think it would be the solution, but it was a thought.
thanks again for the explinations.

Branden

[blindawg]

Long time no talk fella's!

I've been reading through all the tutorials i can find, and reading them again. I have a question on the bench harness... How does one go about building one of those nifty little guys? I've searched on the forum, through the tutorials, and back on the forum. No luck on the actual building of them. I have seen what I think is the wiring diagrams for them, but that all.

Thanks guys,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

For bench top programming harnesses EFI Connection is hard to beat - good quality - competitive prices. Replaced some older items I had with items from EFI Connection - very pleased with the quality.

That would take care of the PCM harness part of the equation. You would also need a power supply harness / interface with at least one switch (ignition) - I prefer 2 switches (ignition and battery). You can also purchase these from EFI Connection - or build your own.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

I couldnt just build a bench harness myself?

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Branden,

Yes - you absolutely could build / re-purpose / modify an existing wiring harness to be used as a bench top programming harness. EFI Connection's LS1-B style bench top programming harness retails for $50. Given this price point - if you have to spend any money on a home made harness (unless you already happened to have most / all of the required components) - the cost difference between "home made" and "shiny new" becomes moot.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

I do already have a red and blue plug for the LS1B style PCM, and I also have an OBD2 port... after looking at the pictures on EFI connection's web site, I think this is all I need? Other than a Power source.

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

LS1-B Bench Top Programming Harness:

uses the C1/ J1 / X1 (Blue connector) only
pin 19 - ignition (usually pink wire) - recommend a fused 10A source with a switch
pin 20 - battery (usually orange wire) - recommend a fused 15A source (I prefer a switch - not necessarily required)


ground - there are 7 choices for the ground source of the harness
pin 60 - easiest to use (often black / orange wire)
pin 54 - (often black wire)
pin 53 - (often black wire)
pin 40 - (often black / white wire)
pin 23 - (often purple wire)
pin 21 - (often black / yellow wire)
pin 1 - (usually black / white wire)
OBD-II Port

pin 2 - serial data (usually dark green wire)
pin 4 - ground (usually black wire)
pin 5 - ground (usually black / white wire)
pin 16 - battery (usually orange wire) - recommend a fused 15A source
Some may comment that you don't require both the OBD-II port ground wires - my philosophy is the more grounds the better.

The above is only applicable to the LS1-B PCM.

*** wire colours listed are applicable to most truck applications - other applications many vary ***

Hopefully this is the information you wanted.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

I vote Taz gets the "Super Tech" Sticker for the day. :grin:
That is exactly what I was looking for. I guess it's exactly what the tutorials say, but the wording makes sense to me this way. :doh2:
I'll Let you know how it turns out.

I do, as always, appriciate the help Taz!
Branden

[FeetDry]

Here is what I used for bench testing connections on the 494 & the 411
PNK Ignition Feed -12 Volts Switched 99-2000: C4-18 411: C 1-19
ORN Battery feed -- 12 Volts constant 99-2000: C3-21 411: C1-20 ODB-16
YEL Class 2 Serial Data (Primary) - BCM 99-2000: C4-14 411: C1-59(Jumped to C1-58 in PCM) ODB-2
BLK/WHT System Ground 99-2000: C3-17 411: C1-1 ODB-5

[blindawg]

I guess I should state that I'm using the DBW computer. I didnt think about this untill now.
This one has all the same numbers on it, from the same year of vehicle- http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-CHEVY-YUKON-ECU-12586242-12583660-YFXL-/170609934843
Does this matter?

Thanks for the info FeetDry, reading that made me think of this.
Thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

Well Ive gotten alot of stuff done for the swap.
I wanted the 03 and up style gauges, along with the steering column in my truck, so in order to do that and make everything work correctly I Pulled EVERY wire out of and 04 fullsize gas truck, and put it into my S10.
So the electrical system in my truck is now an 04, except the tail light plugs, transmission plug on the driver side, the plugs that go into the Park/Head lights switch, and the heating and cooling controls. I'm making my own harness for the climate controls because I have to reuse the stock S10 controls.

My V2 went up in smoke as I tried to read the calibration to remove the VATS to start it up.
Sent it in and its already on its way back with a total of $55 for parts, labor, and shipping. whew.
I had checked all the OBDII wires before I plugged the V2 in to make sure this wouldnt have happened, and it all checked out the way it was suppose to.

I checked them again last night, and the powere and grounds were fine, but the purple serial wire would very, verry dimly light up the test light. It would fade on real slow, then kinda flicker a little, then stay lit. Same thing will happen to the signal wire for the radio. But it only happens when the key is in the run position.
Any guess on where to start?

By the way, Ira over at Fish Tuning has excelent customer service, would encourage anyone to check him out.
Thanks guys,
Branden

[joecar]

Good job :cheers:

Do you know what caused your V2 to smoke...? Was it a missing ground connection...?

The PPL (purple) wire is the serial bus...

do this:
- remove all modules from the serial bus (important),
- check for continuity between OBD2 port pin 2 and the serial bus pin at each module's connector (should be the same color, PPL),
- install all modules back onto the serial bus,
- in the scantool goto the OBD tab and see if all the modules get reported.

[FeetDry]

Ask Ira what he replaced in your unit.

I don't have access to my manuals right now, but I'm pretty sure the serial line is a 5v line. If so, it will be less bright than the 12v line. Also the serial bus is active. That means there are signals from other modules that are on it even w/o the PCM plugged in. Put your test lamp on another vehicles ODB2 data bus, you should see the same behavior. The on/off, dim light on the bus, just means the bus is active. (The other modules are talking.)

The serial bus wire can be in different colors for different modules.

It is kind of hard to tell you where to look for the problem that killed your V2 w/o knowing what died in it. Post what Ira say's.

[blindawg]

Ira had told me that there was power where there wasnt suppose to be power, which I figured that. But how and where, I dont know. I'm waiting on dad to get home to test light the DMax OBDII port to see if its doing the same thing.

Joecar:
What modules are on the serial bus?
Air bags, Radio, gauges, steering column?
I will not be plugging the V2 back into my truck untill I'm 200% sure the problem is fixed. $800 is a lot to press my luck twice. Ya know? Haha.

I have not seen this swap done by anyone, which means no instructions. :confused: Learning as I go. :doh2: <--- Have been doing that. A LOT.

Thanks for the help,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

Yes, depending on the year model: ABS, BCM, airbags/SDM, radio/entertainment, gauges/IPC, On-Star.

[joecar]

If you need a circuit schematic for any subsystem just let me know, I'll see what I have.

[FeetDry]

Power was the only thing I can think of that would cause a problem. I'll suggest that you had power on a gnd line. This would turn the V2 into a (burnt) fuse. I'll guess you are using the DLC (OBD2) connector from the new harness. Was the donor vehicle a CAN (vs ODB2) vehicle by any chance?

How many wires goes to the DLC connector have? All you need for the V2 is Pwr, Gnd, & serial. If you have more than one Gnd wire (common), and one of them is connected to a 12v line (the other to Gnd), this would turn the V2 into a fuse. i.e. Something shorted the pwr line to gnd, through the V2.

DLC connector (2000 S10): (#'s are on the connector)
Pin 2 = serial bus
Pin 10= serial bus low (not needed)
Pin 4 = (chassis) Gnd
Pin 5 = (signal) Gnd
Pin 16= Pwr (hot at all times 9->16v)
Pin 6 = CAN bus (If CAN supported)
Pin 14= CAN bus low(if needed)

All the V2 needs is 2, 4, 5, & 16.
Possible modules on the serial bus: Dash, Clim ctrl, VCM, Seat memory, Info cluster, brakes, vehicle info unit, transfer case, & BCM.

[FeetDry]

The GM class2 serial bus is a 12v bus.
The test light would be dim when there is "talk" on the bus.
i.e. What you are describing is normal.

[blindawg]

If you have more than one Gnd wire (common), and one of them is connected to a 12v line (the other to Gnd), this would turn the V2 into a fuse. i.e. Something shorted the pwr line to gnd, through the V2.

That is what happened. Sorry for the delay in response. Just been one thing after another. Thanks for the help on that FeetDry and Joecar.

I've got it running and have went down the street a couple of times, but nothing too much because of a squealing noise from the bellhousing, and fans are not wired up yet, and no exhaust. All of which should be fixed/done by sunday. Then the fun stuff starts. :)

I need a little help on the wiring part though. I would like to use the factory relays that are in the fuse block under the hood for the fans to help everything look clean. I'm using the A/C comp. and Starter relay. (both were bypassed durring the swap.) I Just need to know how those two relays work, are they switched by ground, or power? Controlled by the PCM or the Control Head? and what wire switches them on?

Thanks fellas. Couldnt do this without the help of this forum.
Branden

[Taz]

Hello Braden,

OK .. trying to remember ... you have a 2004 5.3 L DBW engine swapped into your S10 ? Are you using a 2003+ 1Mb LS1-B PCM (Blue / Green) connectors ?

You want the PCM to control the E-fans ? Does the truck also have A/C ?

An S10 would have had 1 to 4 relays on the firewall (depending on year and model) - A/C, TTL, blower, starter, etc. - are those the relays you wish to repurpose ?

My apologies for all of the questions - want to ensure I give the correct advice & appropriate schematics.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

Yes, all of the information about my swap is exactly what you said, Using that PCM. Sorry, I should have provided that.

I have the one relay for the blower motor resistor on my firewall from the S10. Im wanting to use the A/C and Starter relay from the 2004 underhood fuseblock.

Truck will have A/C.
I put every wire from an 04 Silvarado into my truck so I could use the newer style gauges, and steering column. So basicly This is an 04 1500 silvarado now. The radio and climate control are all in a stand alone harness, not connected to the main harness for anything but power and lighting. The climate control is what the factory S10 would have.

The relays will be used to turn the fans on, yes.

Thanks,
Branden

[Taz]

Nicely done .... if you have the Silverado HVAC Control Module you are good to go on PCM controlled A/C and E-Fans.

Stand alone E-fans are no problem, it's getting the E-Fans to come on when the A/C is activated that can be tricky - 2003+ Silverado / Sierra used serial data communications between the HVAC Control Module and the PCM to activate the A/C compressor clutch.

Will put together some schematics and send them to you.


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

I already know how I'm going to run it. The only problem I have is that I cant figure out which wire switches the relays that are in the 2004 fuse block.

I'm going to have 3 relays, one to turn fans on at temp, one to turn fans on with A/C compressor on, and one to turn the A/C comp itself on.

I wish i could have used the Silvarado ECC, but there is to much to do to make that work, and I figured I was in over my head in the first place. Main reason for not doing it was the Silvarado ECC module doesnt fit in the place of the S10 module, and Interior work is not my specialty.
Another reason I wish I could have used it is that now I'm working with 12V from the S10 controls for the heating and air, and Serial data and Ground for the PCM control.

Thanks for the help Taz,
Branden

[blindawg]

Thanks for those diagrams Taz.
For Recap-2004 5.3. LS1 cam and behive springs. LS6 Intake
Santa brought me a Wide Band yesterday and I finished installing it this morning. Now I'm reading how to do the Auto VE tuning and had a couple questions.
First, is there a tutorial on which inputs on the V2 I plug the 0-5 V from the WB into? I'm using the AEM UEGO if it matters. Also, does the Serial Data from the WB go into anything?
Second, it's saying If my Injector Flow Rates are not stock they need to be adjusted in table B4001. I'm running stock LS6 injectors. How do I go about fixing that? Find a stock LS6 calibration and copy that table into mine?

Thanks guys, hope you all had a Merry Christmas,
Branden

[blindawg]

I did some searching and figured out the answer to the first question. :)
Still wondering if there is a better/the right way to fix those flow rates?

Thanks fellas,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Brandon,

Did you get the serial comms figured out...?

i.e AEM UEGO serial port -> null modem adapter -> V2 serial port

More info:


V2 serial/digital AFR input (AEM):
showthread.php?15748-AEM-compatibility (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15748-AEM-compatibility)
showthread.php?16636-Installing-an-AEM-Wide-Band-02-and-logging-afr (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16636-Installing-an-AEM-Wide-Band-02-and-logging-afr)
showthread.php?16904-AEM-EUGO-Lambda-W-B-how-to-connect-to-Flashscan-V2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16904-AEM-EUGO-Lambda-W-B-how-to-connect-to-Flashscan-V2&p=151205#post151205)



Yes, you can copy table B4001 IFR from 2002 Corvette LS1/LS6 file at www.tunefiledepot.com; (http://www.tunefiledepot.com;)

you should also measure rail pressure and calculate the IFR table using the spreadsheet and compare it to the LS1/LS6 IFR table...
see the link "Calculating Injector Flow Rate" here: General-Tuning-Information (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7867-gt-gt-gt-General-Tuning-Information-lt-lt-lt)

You have to take note of your FPR...
- if FPR is manifold referenced, then IFR will be flat (same value in all cells, equal to first cell in spreadsheet);
- if FPR is un-referenced, then IFR will be sloped (all cells in spreadsheet).

[blindawg]

Yes I figured out the Serial Comms. Those were the 3 I looked at for the info. lol. Thanks for that. :cheers:

I'm starting to do the Auto VE tuning like I said earlier, and I'm having trouble being able to select to PID's that the tutorial calls for. There is no option to select the
Commanded AFR, or Retard Due to Knock. Also, do I select the External analog Voltage if I'm using serial data for the WB? The Base Efficiency Numerator 1 (and 2) -PLX are showing an X through them. Is this because the V2 is not connected to the vehicle and recieving the signal from the WB?

One more question so far, When I was making the map for the Auto VE the column lables are 2.2,2.9,3.6,4.4,5.1,5.8 ect. as apposed to the 15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55 ect. that the tutorial calls for. Am i doing something wrong?

Thanks guys'
Branden

[blindawg]

I've also looked for the last 3 hours trying to find out how to find the options.txt file for the EFI Explorer with no luck. I saw it earlier... but now nothing.

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

With wideband serial comms, use the pid WO2BEN from the calc_pids.txt file from this post:

A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table)

See attached for the calc_pids.txt file... it goes in folder My Documents/EFILive/V7.5/User Configuration (backup the old file first).

The pid WO2BEN can be used anywhere a wideband BEN is needed.

[blindawg]

Thanks for that joecar.
I was having the dissapearing PID problem, but reloaded the software and its all there again and in working condition.
I now have the WO2BEN PID, but it will not validate... any sugestions on this?

Thanks fellas,
Branden

[blindawg]

Pid with red X: on the pid do rightclick->More Info, this will indocate why the red X (needs some other pids selected).

I read and read and read, came across this. So I did it.
It said it wasn't valid because I didn't have PID EXT.WO2LAM1 selected. I selected it and WO2BEN was no longer X'd out.



One more question so far, When I was making the map for the Auto VE the column lables are 2.2,2.9,3.6,4.4,5.1,5.8 ect. as apposed to the 15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55 ect. that the tutorial calls for. Am i doing something wrong?

Fixed this also by making the units metric instead of Imperial.

As of right now, all life's problems are solved, but one will pop up shortly so I'll talk to you then. :)

Thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

Here is one,
In step 7 of setting up open loop speed density, it says' "If the calibration is displayed as EQ Ratio then set the values as per the red rectangle in this table" Is it saying make the entire table show up as it does in those three columns? like copy and paste those values into every column?
or
Input the values that are in the red rectangle for those three columns? This makes more sense looking at it, but I don't want to blow anything up.

Thanks fellas,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden, The red rectangle represents your operating range (i.e. after engine is warmed up it will operating in this rectangle);

so you need to edit only the cells in this rectangle (just like you said that makes more sense);

also check this: find out the BARO kPa at your elevation (read the BARO pid)... then in this table (B3605) the MAP column equal to BARO kPa will be WOT... make sure that WOT commanded EQR has been reached at least 1 or 2 columns before this column...

actually, I like to set the WOT commanded EQR to 1.16 in my last 3 columns (my elevation has BARO equal to 100kPa) as this sets me on the rich (safer) side of error.

12458

[blindawg]

I adjusted the IFR by copy and pasting from an LS6 tune. I flashed it and started it up. I watched the WB and it was saying 15 to ---- It stops reading after 18. Am I doing something wrong? or? I logged before and after the change. I already had the MAF unplugged for the AutoVE stuff so I just adjusted it and flashed with it in open loop speed density like the tutorial says to do.
Also, should the Commanded AFR be the same as what the WB says? Stupid question, but I don't want to assume. :)

Here they are, any ideas?

12459
12460

Thanks,
Branden

[blindawg]

also check this: find out the BARO kPa at your elevation (read the BARO pid)... then in this table (B3605) the MAP column equal to BARO kPa will be WOT... make sure that WOT commanded EQR has been reached at least 1 or 2 columns before this column...

actually, I like to set the WOT commanded EQR to 1.16 in my last 3 columns (my elevation has BARO equal to 100kPa) as this sets me on the rich (safer) side of error.

WOT=Wide Open Throttle, correct?
You are saying that the pressure at my elevation will be the MAP Pressure at WOT?

[joecar]

WOT=Wide Open Throttle, correct?
You are saying that the pressure at my elevation will be the MAP Pressure at WOT?Yes, correct on both.

[joecar]

I adjusted the IFR by copy and pasting from an LS6 tune. I flashed it and started it up. I watched the WB and it was saying 15 to ---- It stops reading after 18. Am I doing something wrong? or? I logged before and after the change. I already had the MAF unplugged for the AutoVE stuff so I just adjusted it and flashed with it in open loop speed density like the tutorial says to do.
Also, should the Commanded AFR be the same as what the WB says? Stupid question, but I don't want to assume. :)

Here they are, any ideas?

12459
12460

Thanks,
BrandenHi Branden,

Ok, this means that the VE table is too far off for the new IFR...

you can initially estimate the VE table by multiplying it by the same percentage increase in the new IFR table;

Or, it might be easier to do the Calc.VET tutorial first (with the new IFR table)... this does two things:
1. it corrects the existing MAF table,
2. it calculates a new VE table based on the corrected MAF table;

to perform the Calc.VET tutorial, you have to enable the MAF and enable LTFT Closed Loop trimming... follow the details in post #1 of this thread: A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table)

Pay particular attention to matching units between the scantool and tunetool...

post screenshots as you go, we'll eyeball them to make sure you're on the right track.


Also, before starting, have a careful read of post #29 of this thread: Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes&p=148674#post148674)


The aim is to get the wideband EQR to equal the commanded EQR (notice I avoided using the term AFR)... this is known as "BEN converging on 1.00"...

the BEN is GM.EQIVRATIO/EXT.WO2EQR1 (which is identical to GM.EQIVRATIO*EXT.WO1LAM1) so you can see that when BEN is 1.00 the numerator and denominator are equal (+/- 0.01 or 1% is acceptable).

The aim is achieved by correcting/calculating the sources of cylinder airmass (i.e. the VE and MAF tables).

[blindawg]

Can you give a situation where I would use Calc.VET instead of Calc.MAFT? and Vise versa? Or can they be used either/or in any situation?

I've seen there is a How-To on screen shots, But i can't find it again. :help2:
EDIT:I was trying to hard, looking for the thread I saw it in instead of searching for screenshot. (doh! face)

Thanks for all the Help,
Branden

[joecar]

A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table)
Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table-CALC-VET-In-Reverse (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16413-Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table-CALC-VET-In-Reverse)

post #29 in the Summary Notes gives an explanation of how they're related.

[blindawg]

I read Post 29, and that'e where the question arose from.

They do the same thing but in reverse, right? I was wondering if there was a situation where there is only one of the two that could be used, or if in any given situation, either could be used?

Thanks for the continued help,
Branden

[blindawg]

The CalcVET map never got outside of the first column... did I set it up wrong? If I tell it to show units it comes up with PSI, but the labels are the same as the tutorial, and the table in the tune tool is set to kpa.

Not sure what I'm looking at yet on the second table, but getting there.

12462124631246412465

Thanks guys,
Branden

[joecar]

VE map:
-check that scantool units for MAP are same as top row of B0101 in tunetool (i.e. kPa)... on PIDs tab, on MAP do rightclick->Metric.
- in the map properties, on the Data tab, choose the MAP pid that has units kPa.

[blindawg]

This is the first thing I checked. :)

[joecar]

Then make sure the map data pid is SAE.MAP.kPa instead of SAE.MAP.psi.

[blindawg]

- in the map properties, on the Data tab, choose the MAP pid that has units kPa.

I obviously can't read.:music_whistling_1:
I selected the wrong PID when I originally made the table, and again when I checked it.

Screenshot attached, look alright?
12480

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

Much better :cheers:

Now, in the map properties, on the Data tab, increase the precision to 4.

[blindawg]

I did the MAF table, and it changed A Lot. not sure if its right?

12487
12488

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

No, that's not right...

is this the Calc.VET tutorial (the map should be the BEN correction multiplier (values close to 1.00)) or Calc.MAFT tutorial (the map should be calculated gram/second values (which increase with Hz))...?

post screenshot of your map (showing units on all axes and on the title).


Also, check the vertical axis units of your B5001 (lb/hr);
it would be easier/mandatory to use all Metric units;
in the tunetool, go Edit->Configure Display Units, and set B5001 to Metric, click Ok, and restart the tunetool.

[blindawg]

Also, check the vertical axis units of your B5001 (lb/hr);
it would be easier/mandatory to use all Metric units;
in the tunetool, go Edit->Configure Display Units, and set B5001 to Metric, click Ok, and restart the tunetool.

I changed them all to Metric.

This is what I'm left with:
12495

Here is the Map:
12494

I seems like I need to read more carefully, I pasted with labels, instead of Paste and multiply with labels.

My Graph after the above correction:
12496

Looking better?
Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Yes, much better :cheers:



BTW: you can make the map cell width narrower (e.g. see your 2nd pic), in the map properties goto the Cell tab and checkmark Constrain Cell Size.

[blindawg]

Thanks for the help Joecar. Much appreciated. :cheers:

I was having a problem with it cutting out around 5000-5200 RPM, but then picking right back up and continuing on up the Tach until it shifts, then do it again when it hits 5000-5200 RPM.
I ran through the Calc.VET tutorial a couple times and it was still there. My buddy was wanting to race so we went for it and that time it started at like 4500 RPM and never went away until I let off.

Any ideas?

Thanks guys,
Branden

[joecar]

Do you have any logs of when it happens...

Measure fuel rail pressure when the problem happens: either connect fuel pressure gauge and tape it to your windshield, or install a pressure sensor on the fuel rail and log it using the EFILive scantool (a calc pid is required).

[Taz]

... having a problem with it cutting out around 5000-5200 RPM, but then picking right back up and continuing on up the Tach until it shifts, then do it again when it hits 5000-5200 RPM ...

Hello Branden,

Try running the truck in SD mode - to see if it still acts up. Sometimes they will buck (sometimes severely) if the MAF and VE calibrations diverge by too great an amount.

If it improves (or disappears) when in SD mode, you will know the problem is the tune itself.

Also, should have asked - what MAF are you using - and how / where is it mounted in the air stream ?


Regards,
Taz

[blindawg]

This is when it only happens at 5000-5200:12564
No log of when it started at 4500. I flashed a tune I know works on it for the time being. The problem only happens with the tune that's in the log. So My guess is It's in the tune?

The MAF is stock out of a 2004 5.3, not sure if there is anything specific you are asking for on it? :confused:
MAF is mounted like this:
filter>MAF>plastic intake tube>TB (maybe 8 inches away from the TB)

Thanks for the help guys,
Branden

[blindawg]

New idea, when it hits the set governor it should be a jerk because of fuel cut off, and then come back on when fuel comes back in right? Well when I hit what I believe is the governor, (not sure and am away from the computer right now) it fades real quick, but doesn't lower rpm, or speed, its just stopps pulling. I know for a fact it can go faster with no problem, its just in the tune.

Thanks fellas,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branen,

From your log it looks like the PE enable is too restrictive... PE should enable a little easier...

12566

(looks like scantool is mis-scaling the HO2Sx1 voltages, but the PCM is scaling them correctly since it produces valid LTFT's)

[blindawg]

Here is what my MAF Table looks like after the 5th time of the CALC.VET tutorial:
12567
Does that look right?

How do I go about correcting the PE Problem?

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

MAF: no, that does not look right... are you applying the transient filter...? can you post the SELBEN map for that.


PE: look at the PE Enable table B3616; also look at B3608 and B3609 (set both of those to zeros); also look at the low end of B3618 (make sure it is not stoich).

[blindawg]

Here is the SELBEN Table:
12569125701257112572
The table had been adjusted for the 5th time, so those values alone are not what made the current MAF Table.

I'll look into the PE.

Thanks for all the help Joecar,
Branden

[joecar]

Try smoothing the MAF table and repeat the log/correction.

A corrected MAF table usually has a consistent upward curve to it, those ripples are not right.

[blindawg]

...also look at the low end of B3618 (make sure it is not stoich).

12573

Which is the low end? and Stoich would be a value of 0?

I'll smooth the MAF and try again.

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

The low end is under 2000 rpm.

Stoich is EQR 1.000.

Your B3618 looks ok (other than being overly rich where it exceeds 1.20; but that's ok until you have the VE and MAF table correct).

[blindawg]

Alright, Thanks for the clarification. :cheers:

After correcting the VE and MAF, what do you recommend for adjusting on the PE? Is there a rule of thumb for it?

Thanks again,
Branden

[joecar]

When the VE and MAF are correct (BEN = 1.00 +/- 0.01 across the operating range; remember that BEN is the ratio of commanded fuel to wideband measured fuel), then PE can be set to 1.16 (corresponds to AFR 12.6 if fuel has stoich 14.63).

It's an empirical rule (people have measured on dyno and dragstrip) that AFR 12.6 (EQR 1.16) gets you the safest peak torque (i.e. is sufficiently rich to avoid knock, is sufficiently rich to produce peak cylinder pressure, is not overly rich to drown everything);

another empirical rule is to progressively lean out a little after peak torque heading to peak power and max rpm, reaching AFR 13.1 (EQR 1.12) at peak power (it has been found that slightly leaning a little like this makes more power at the higher rpm's past peak torque); but if you're going to do something like this you need to verify it with a wideband and dyno graphs or quarter mile time slips; and as always, be listening for knock and avoid it (knock is bad, it damages the motor);

[ "slightly leaning a little" : relatively speaking compared to peak torque; it obviously is not lean compared to stoich ]

[ notice I used AFR instead of EQR... when viewing/editing the tables, please do think in terms of EQR ]

for street use, it is simpler to set PE to 1.16 all across.

[blindawg]

Thanks for that information Joe, I'll refer back to it when I get the MAF and VE figured out.

I'm fairly certain I'm doing this wrong, or started out with something that wasn't right to begin with.
I got a tune off of Tunedepot.com for a 2004 5.3 DBW. took the VATS off. Adjusted the fan settings. Then I went for a drive-
It jerked and backfired a couple times as it hit the higher RPMs (4800-5600) It would feel real doggy in the lower RPMs, and as RPM increased, it would feel more and more powerful until it started jerking and back firing. KR showed as 8 on the dashboard.

I then started looking into doing the AutoVE tutorial and noticed my IFR needed to be corrected. I copied and pasted the IFR table from an LS6 because I'm using an LS6 Intake/Injectors. And started doing the Calc.VET tutorial instead because Joe recommended it-

As I did the runs and adjusted the Tune the jerking and backfiring got worse. After adjusting the PE as Joe recommended it feels like its hitting the rev-limmiter, but as soon as I let off it feels powerful as I let up on the pedal, but doggs back down when I push back down. I assume I am doing something wrong, but I'm getting frustrated at it at this point. :help:

Tune I started out with:12574
Tune With adjustments from last log, I have not yet flashed this one:12575

Thanks Guys, Help is much appreciated,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

I'm looking at your files, the VE and MAF tables are not progressing correctly...

can you post the log file that produced the CalcVET_0009.tun file.

[joecar]

Also, try this: set B0120 to zero, and take another log using a .tun file where the VE and MAF tables are smooth.

B0120 works like this:
above this rpm, the PCM uses the MAF exclusively for airmass and ignores the VE;
below this rpm, the PCM uses the MAF for steady state conditions, and the VE for transient conditions.


I'm still looking thru your tun file, it will take me a while I have various things all going at once :doh:

It can be frustrating at times, but don't be discouraged, there are logical reasons for what is going on.

[blindawg]

I'm still looking thru your tun file, it will take me a while I have various things all going at once :doh:

It can be frustrating at times, but don't be discouraged, there are logical reasons for what is going on.

No worries on the time, we all have lives. :cheers:
I'm not discouraged, just frustrated for the time being. :bad:

I'll post the log when I get home, along with adjusting B0120 and I'll post up results.

Thanks Joe,
Branden

[blindawg]

Log Used to make Calc.VET_0009: 12577

Branden

[joecar]

Which engine do you have...?

The calc'd VE table is calculating high...
this has to do with your engine being a V6 and the VE calulation being for a V8...
I'm sorry about this mix up, I should have realized earlier;

this means you have to do one (and only one) of the following:
- change all your VE units to % [ ugh, I don't like this ];
- edit CALC.VEN to change CLC-00-300 to this (see the red part) [ I like this ]:


*CLC-00-300
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*{CALC.DAT.K}/{SAE.RPM}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}*3445.2/displacement()"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*{CALC.DAT.K}/{SAE.RPM}/{SAE.MAP.kPa}*20"



The attached calc_pids.txt file contains this change.




I noticed the dynamic air temperature is not correct (it should be somewhere between IAT and ECT, and should never be below IAT); if this persists, then you may have to create a lookup calc pid from table B4901 (the Calc VET thread shows how; I can help you with it).


I edited a few things in the stock file you posted in post #164 above, see attached, you can go to the History tab and scroll to the bottom to see what I edited (you can also open the original file as the alternate calibration and use the compare feature to see the differences in the new file).

WARNING: the attached calc_pids.txt is for doing Calc.VET on a V6 engine.

[joecar]

Hey Branden,

If you're into Algebra and Physics, see post #27 here: DYNAIRTMP_DMA-vs-CHRGTEMP_DMA (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4709-DYNAIRTMP_DMA-vs-CHRGTEMP_DMA)

[blindawg]

I started out this thread with a V6, but swapped a 2004 5.3 into it, so it is a V8. Lol. Sorry about that.

Does what you said in your post still apply?

I do enjoy algebra, but not too sure about the phisics half. I'll give it a look all the same.

Thanks for the help Joe,
Branden

[joecar]

Ok, if you have a V8 then the constant in the equation is 15 (actually it's 120/N where N is the cylinder count).


The problem is that the VE is calculated too high, it might be because DAT is incorrect; DAT should be somewhere between IAT and ECT, and never outside of these.

Lol, in Physics uses algebra, but you include the units of each term , the units multiply and divide as if they were variables (for example x grams flowing in t seconds results in the flowrate x/t [g/s]).

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

Which build version is your V7 software (do Help->About from the tunetool)...?

[blindawg]

V7.5.7 Build 180

[joecar]

Ok, good, I'm just making sure :)

(a calc_pids.txt bug was fixed a few build versions before build 180).

[blindawg]

Ok, if you have a V8 then the constant in the equation is 15 (actually it's 120/N where N is the cylinder count).
Is 120/N in the code you posted earlier? If not, where does it come in at?



The problem is that the VE is calculated too high, it might be because DAT is incorrect; DAT (Should?) be somewhere between IAT and ECT, and never outside of these.
How do I go about fixing this?

once the Problem above is fixed, and the CALC.VET is done, will it fix the backfiring and jerking in the higher RPMs?

Thanks for the continued help Joe,
Branden

[joecar]

Ok, if you have a V8 then the constant in the equation is 15 (actually it's 120/N where N is the cylinder count).
Is 120/N in the code you posted earlier? If not, where does it come in at?
It comes in as the constant 15 (for 8 cylinders) in the equations.



The problem is that the VE is calculated too high, it might be because DAT is incorrect; DAT (Should?) be somewhere between IAT and ECT, and never outside of these.
How do I go about fixing this?
Look at the attachment to post #9 here: Dynamic-Air-Temp-PID-shows-up-as-invalid (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?17872-Dynamic-Air-Temp-PID-shows-up-as-invalid&highlight=B4901)
You will have to use the values from your B4901 table (if they are different);
you have to graft in this new calc pid into your calc_pids.txt file.


once the Problem above is fixed, and the CALC.VET is done, will it fix the backfiring and jerking in the higher RPMs?
I don't know, it depends on if the backfiring/jerking is caused by fuel/air problems or by something else.


Thanks for the continued help Joe,
BrandenNo worries.

[blindawg]

Look at the attachment to post #9 here: Dynamic-Air-Temp-PID-shows-up-as-invalid (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?17872-Dynamic-Air-Temp-PID-shows-up-as-invalid&highlight=B4901)
You will have to use the values from your B4901 table (if they are different);
you have to graft in this new calc pid into your calc_pids.txt file.


I got it grafted in fine, but I'm lost as to what I'll have to do with the B4901 table?

Thanks,
Branden

[joecar]

Hi Branden,

Post your calc_pids.txt file here.

the pid you grafted in (consists of two items to paste into the calc_pids.txt file, and a rename of the dynamic air temp pids used in the VEN equation) contains a lookup table (consisting of a number of pairs of values)...

if those pairs of values are different than your B4901 then you have to edit those to be the same as your B4901.

Post your B4901 here.