Calc. VE Tuning - Newbie getting started

[blsnelling]

I just got my v2 and have spent the afternoon figuring out how to do a Calc. VE tune. I've got the calc pids, maps, filters, etc all setup. I don't yet have a wideband O2. I don't see where it's used in the calculations/corrections. Why is it shown as required in the Introduction? Which PID shows the existing O2 output?

Am I correct that this is the first thing I want to do in my tune? I'm starting with a mail order tune that seems to be running well. I just want to dial it in as close as I can, and verify that it's all correct.

[WeathermanShawn]

Hi there.

You can do a lot of the CALC.VE Table Tutorial just using your factory Narrow-Bands (O2's). Where you must utilize a wideband is when you start going into PE Mode (>50% Throttle, etc).

When in closed-loop you utilize the LTFTBEN portion of the calculation. PE Mode is open-loop. The formula still calculates your VE in PE Mode by utilizing the MAF Frequency, IAT, ECT, etc. The wideband is to get your actual fueling correct.

Remember, both MAF & VE are Airflow Tables. Fueling needs need to be addressed with a wideband.

If you intend to stay Closed-Loop and keep your MAF enabled, CALC.VE Table will allow you to maximize airflow, fueling and spark loads..both at Idle and WOT.

Hope that helps..

[blsnelling]

I'm still not clear, lol. Remember, I'm a newbie at this.

I will be keeping the MAF. Bottom line, how do I tune the MAF and VE tables without a wideband O2? It appears to me that the wideband O2 is only used to ensure the results are correct. It doesn't appear to be used in the calculations at all.

On another note, I'm getting all 0.00 values in the VE_Table map, and 0.0 and an occasional 0.1 in the LTFTBEN map. What would cause this? I thought maybe I had some metric/imperial values mismatched, but they are not.

[blsnelling]

Here are my pid files. 9115, 9116

Rename these to .map files. 9117, 9118

[Boost]

On this topic, I am trying to add the 3 required extra PIDs and when I open the scan tool it gives an error message that it can't find them and closes.

"Hint, Additional information about use and creation of calculated
PID’s can be found in the EFILive Scan Tool help manual."

(Where?)

"format of this file is explained in the file itself. Use a text file editor to load the file and read the inline ments." (all I found there)

"Error code: ERR_CONFIG/92

C:\Users\User\Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt(54): Units /(4.800)*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.LTFTBEN}" not found. . "

[blsnelling]

You can use my calc_pids file above.

I'm wondering if I'm getting all 0.00 in my VE_Talbe map because it can't find the displacement. I just replaced that with 5.964, and will see what happens.

[blsnelling]

I see where PE Mode is enabled anywhere from 60-75% TPS in B3618. I've yet to see a tutorial on tuning PE mode. I'm just not putting the pieces together here. It seems as there's no tutorial that goes step by step through tuning a vehicle. I'm only finding pieces, and haven't got the whole process figured out.

[WeathermanShawn]

I'm still not clear, lol. Remember, I'm a newbie at this.

I will be keeping the MAF. Bottom line, how do I tune the MAF and VE tables without a wideband O2? It appears to me that the wideband O2 is only used to ensure the results are correct. It doesn't appear to be used in the calculations at all.

On another note, I'm getting all 0.00 values in the VE_Table map, and 0.0 and an occasional 0.1 in the LTFTBEN map. What would cause this? I thought maybe I had some metric/imperial values mismatched, but they are not.

It is O.K. We have all been 'newbies', or at newbies in some area of tuning..

You are utilizing the narrowbands for most of the calculations. In math that is called a 'known' factor. Though you don't see the ~14.7 AFR being calculated, it is indeed being used. You are calculating a correction to it. The wideband AFR must match up with each of the MAF Frequencies when you go heavy on the throttle. If you are too lean or rich the match-up between the MAF and your AFR absolutely effects the VE calculation!

The best advice I can give you at this time is just take it slowly. The Scan & Tool software along with BBL take some time to set-up. I guarantee you if you utilize the PIDS as exactly described in the Tutorial and log..it will all make sense. Just staring at the formula will drive you nuts. But, again the AFR is being utilized at every point in the calculation whether by the narrowband stoich value or by wideband.

I am not sure on your VE values. If you have something to post up it might make it easier to figure out..

[WeathermanShawn]

On this topic, I am trying to add the 3 required extra PIDs and when I open the scan tool it gives an error message that it can't find them and closes.

"Hint, Additional information about use and creation of calculated
PID’s can be found in the EFILive Scan Tool help manual."

(Where?)

"format of this file is explained in the file itself. Use a text file editor to load the file and read the inline ments." (all I found there)

"Error code: ERR_CONFIG/92

C:\Users\User\Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt(54): Units /(4.800)*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.LTFTBEN}" not found. . "

Boost, I agree the write-up in the Scan Tool is not real easy for beginners to follow. In all honesty, I had Joecar greatly assist me on my first CALC PIDS..from there it made sense. Obviously, all the correct PIDS must be selected, units generally metric, displacement value must be accurate. Do you have DYNAIRTMP as a valid PID?

[WeathermanShawn]

I see where PE Mode is enabled anywhere from 60-75% TPS in B3618. I've yet to see a tutorial on tuning PE mode. I'm just not putting the pieces together here. It seems as there's no tutorial that goes step by step through tuning a vehicle. I'm only finding pieces, and haven't got the whole process figured out.

BLS, best to not get too frustrated. Believe me I said the same thing you are saying when I first started. It took 2-3 months to write up the CALC.VE Table and that barely covers 1% of all tuning.

There are a lot of differing vehicles, years, OS's..and not enough volunteers to write up areas of tuning. Check Joecar's signature..he has great links and summary notes.

[blsnelling]

Please don't get me wrong, I really appreciate your help!

I'm now getting numbers in my VE_Table map. They range anywhere from 50-100, approxiamately.

My LTFTBENs are all 1.0 though. Any ideas on what's causing that?

Here's my log file. 9128

[WeathermanShawn]

You have to make sure you select enough digits when you compute LTFTBENS.

I believe it is under 'Edit Map Properties', Data, Precision..

Sounds like it is only computing to integers..

[blsnelling]

I don't see anything like that. I did see a couple 1.1s earlier, but this last run they were all 1.0. I'll log again tomorrow and see what happens.

[joecar]

You can use my calc_pids file above.

I'm wondering if I'm getting all 0.00 in my VE_Talbe map because it can't find the displacement. I just replaced that with 5.964, and will see what happens.When you do this, replace displacement() with 5.964... i.e. don't leave the parentheses () there.

[joecar]

You have to make sure you select enough digits when you compute LTFTBENS.

I believe it is under 'Edit Map Properties', Data, Precision..

Sounds like it is only computing to integers..

I don't see anything like that. I did see a couple 1.1s earlier, but this last run they were all 1.0. I'll log again tomorrow and see what happens.

In scantool, on the map tab, there's a button to edit the map properties, where you will find the Data tab, where you will see the precision... set it to 4.

[joecar]

On this topic, I am trying to add the 3 required extra PIDs and when I open the scan tool it gives an error message that it can't find them and closes.

"Hint, Additional information about use and creation of calculated
PID’s can be found in the EFILive Scan Tool help manual."

(Where?)

"format of this file is explained in the file itself. Use a text file editor to load the file and read the inline ments." (all I found there)

"Error code: ERR_CONFIG/92

C:\Users\User\Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt(54): Units /(4.800)*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.LTFTBEN}" not found. . "

Boost,

Your calc_pids.txt file has newlines added messes up some of the definitions...

Use the calc pids.txt file from here: showthread.php?13152-New-Tuning-Tutorial-WeathermanShawn/page5 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13152-New-Tuning-Tutorial-WeathermanShawn/page5)

What is your engine's displacement in Litres...? If it's different than 5.669 then change it in the calc_pids.txt file.

[joecar]

Something to note:

in the map use the VE calc pid units that match your tunetool VE display units...

i.e. if tunetool displays VE in % units, then use the VE(%) pid; otherwise if tunetool displays g*K/kPa then use the VE(g*K/kPa) pid.

[blsnelling]

You have to make sure you select enough digits when you compute LTFTBENS.

I believe it is under 'Edit Map Properties', Data, Precision..

Sounds like it is only computing to integers..


In scantool, on the map tab, there's a button to edit the map properties, where you will find the Data tab, where you will see the precision... set it to 4.

Just found it. It was set to 1. I'll have to go try it now. Thanks for bearing with me here.


When you do this, replace displacement() with 5.964... i.e. don't leave the parentheses () there.
I got that part right:grin:

[blsnelling]

Duhh, I didn't even have to go log again. I had good data, just wasn't displaying it. Probably a good tip to add to the tutorial:cheers:

[WeathermanShawn]

Double-check your Displacement Values..Is it computing with 5.669 or your new Value?

Otherwise, looks like a fairly decent run with minimal KR. LTFTBENS are within the ballpark.

Refresh our memories on your set-up. Is it mostly stock? Really does not look like you have to do a lot to your tune VE/MAF wise..as long as your displacement function is correct.

Good job..

[blsnelling]

Thanks! That's real good to hear!

I replaced "displacement()" with "5.964". Here's my latest log. It has several WOT runs in it. 9129

Here's my tun file after the latest changes. 9130

[blsnelling]

Here's my setup.

'01 GMC Sierra ECSB 4x4, '04 6.0L LQ4 Shortblock, 243 Heads Milled .035 11:1 Compression, Mild Hand P&P, Pac 1218 Springs, Yank PT3200 Stall, Comp Cam 220/224, .581/.581, 112+0 LSA, LS7 Lifters, Melling HP Oil Pump, TBSS Intake Manifold, Edelbrock 3864 90mm T-Body, Doug Thorley LT Tri-Y ceramic headers, Flowmaster 50 SUV, LS1 e-fans, Airaid MIT, Complete valve body build up, 4.30:1 + Detroit TrueTrac, 33/12.50-17 Tires.

[WeathermanShawn]

Wow, nice mods!

Well as far as Closed-Loop Tuning, looks like you are done. Your LTFTBENS are spot on and your VE Table looks pretty reasonable. Your Injector/Fuel Delivery set-up is obviously different..I am so used to looking at LS1's.

Had you never really tuned the MAF before? I mean those numbers are as close to perfect as you can get..

Just a little KR at WOT..Looked like it did pull your Spark down though.

Overall, I would say good job..

[blsnelling]

Wasn't expecting a response like that, lol. I adjusted the MAF a little, using the log I just posted. What you see in the .tun has not been logged yet. They were all very small adjustments though, like .98. I've modified the VE table quite a lot. Since it's hard to hit all the cells, I've blended it quite a lot by hand. I've only gone over it twice so far. The first time through, I did a lot more blending.

Like I mentioned earlier, this was a mail order tune from a reputable source. I've changed quite a lot in it though. So if you see something out of wack, blame me:)

Did I read that I don't need to do the Calc. VE tune much over 4000 RPMs?

[WeathermanShawn]

I still try to tune above 4000 Rpm's on the VE Table for one reason..if you get a MAF failure it will use those numbers exclusively. I don't go nuts though trying to tune every cell above 4000 RPm's, but I like to get the high kPa areas as solid as possible.

Good luck..

[blsnelling]

The way I understand it, the PCM goes into PE mode above a certain level, and no longer uses the VE table. Do I need to up the values in B3618 to tune more of the VE table? What about the values I'm getting in those higher cells now? But If I'm going into PE mode now at higher output, what about the values I'm getting for my VE now? Help me understand this transition.

[Boost]

You can use my calc_pids file above.

I'm wondering if I'm getting all 0.00 in my VE_Talbe map because it can't find the displacement. I just replaced that with 5.964, and will see what happens.

Working so far, thanks!

[Boost]

Ok, on page 3 of the tutorial, there is a list of PIDs to select. Then on page 4 it says it should look like another list with several more different PIDs?? Not a big deal but it won't work without a full list right? And without a WB, no point in selecting those channels right? Thanks!

[WeathermanShawn]

The way I understand it, the PCM goes into PE mode above a certain level, and no longer uses the VE table.

Its not quite that simple. It utilizes a blend/correction until you reach the level determined by B0120. Above that RPM Threshold it is all MAF. PE mode is adding a fueling multiplier (EQ) based on TPS & RPM. Normally that corresponds to MAF/VE Airflow. The total discussion could fill a textbook. The CALC VE Table is one of the few formulas that actually equates MAF Airflow to VE Airflow.

Do I need to up the values in B3618 to tune more of the VE table?

No. Stick with the EQ you need for fueling. Normally that is ~1.156 EQ..

What about the values I'm getting in those higher cells now?

Not sure what you are asking here..

But If I'm going into PE mode now at higher output, what about the values I'm getting for my VE now?

The Airflow is determined by the MAF, IAT, ECT, LTFTBEN. The PE is simply a fueling multiplier. That involves a lengthy discussion of Injector flow, etc..Airmass is just one little part of that equation.

Help me understand this transition.

If you have a good understanding of math, sometimes it is just best to study the equations for a few hours a day. If you do not have the math knack, lots of logging and making tune changes is the only other way to learn.

Hope that helps..

[WeathermanShawn]

Ok, on page 3 of the tutorial, there is a list of PIDs to select. Then on page 4 it says it should look like another list with several more different PIDs?? Not a big deal but it won't work without a full list right? And without a WB, no point in selecting those channels right? Thanks!

Boost:

Looks like page 4 is not correct. We missed this on our final publication. The Pids on Page 3 will get the job done. Looks like the example on page 4 has additional PIDs that are not really required.

Thanks for pointing it out. We are going to publish a post-production Tutorial Update at some point. We have most of the other errors logged and will get them in our next update.

You can still accomplish a lot utilizing just the narrowbands. Obviously, once you hit PE Mode there is no narrowband feedback so there is where the wideband is mandatory. The CALC.VE Table formula will still 'work' it will just lock in your last LTFTBEN. You will get an airflow value, just no guarantee of the proper AFR/EQ.

Thanks again..

[Boost]

No thank YOU for everything! And that's great news for lazy people :hihi::angel_innocent:

[blsnelling]

Since I made so many manual changes smoothing the VE table first time through, I wanted to make another log or two. This last time round produced no real spikes. I made no manual changes in this last copy. I pasted in the changes and left it. The changes to the MAF table only served to actually make it even smoother than it was. I think I'm done with my Calc. VE tune. Should I leave the VE as is, or is some final smoothing in order?

9136

How's this for filling the map?:)

http://photo.blsnelling.com/Other/Truck-60-Engine-Build/Truck2/1032654436_3eNAj-M.jpg

[WeathermanShawn]

Wow, our VE Tables look very similar. Must be the identical CR and similar cams.

Based on your last log, things appear done. What is a little odd is that your actual MAF values are very close to stock. So normally your VE Table values would not be that high. Without doing every calculation I am assuming it is the difference in displacement that is causing the 'discrepancy'..:confused:.

Overall your CYLAIR and DYNAIR are very similar which is also a positive sign. Your Injector Flow Rate is throwing me..what set-up do you have in that regard?

I would say your VE Table is a good Model of how to smooth. Take some spikes out, do some blending..

Now you just need to move to Spark and WOT fueling..unless you are happy where it is..:)

Enjoy..

[blsnelling]

Wow, our VE Tables look very similar. Must be the identical CR and similar cams.11:1 CR, 220/224 .581/.581 112+0 LSA on the cam.


Overall your CYLAIR and DYNAIR are very similar which is also a positive sign. Your Injector Flow Rate is throwing me..what set-up do you have in that regard?
I'm running 8.1L truck injectors. Is that what you're asking? I noticed I'm hitting 95% duty cycle:shock:


I would say your VE Table is a good Model of how to smooth. Take some spikes out, do some blending..
So go ahead and do a little cleanup?


Now you just need to move to Spark and WOT fueling..unless you are happy where it is..:)
You knew it was coming, lol. What do I do next? Is a WB O2 required to do WOT tuning? Can you tell if I'm close enough to leave it for now, and work on timing? Some of my WOT runs have little to no KR, but I actually saw 8 on one tonight. I'll post my last couple of logs here in a second.

[blsnelling]

One is a long log from my last VE logging session. The other is a short one with two WOT runs. 9138, 9139

[WeathermanShawn]

I am just so used to the LS1 MAP/VAC set-up, which scales etc. I am not the Injector Expert, so I will just skip that part.

I think your VE Table looks good as is. No changes that I can see.

On fueling, I will probably sound like a broken record. With your Injectors hitting 95%+, and with the extensive set-up you have..yes get a wideband. Personally, I think your Spark Tables look real good. I do not run much over 20-25 degrees Spark at WOT. So, perhaps the KR is from going lean or running out of Injector?

You have a real nice set-up. A wideband would be a great investment.

Good luck.

[blsnelling]

You have a real nice set-up. A wideband would be a great investment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm getting that from everyone, lol:) I've already spent this much, I'm sure I will soon.

BTW, I really appreciate, yours and everyones replies. It's not fun to be left out in the cold not knowing what to do. You guys helped me get this VE tune done in short order.

[blsnelling]

While working on this Calc. VE tune, I've also been working on my idle. I've followed a lot of the idle turorial information found HERE (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside&highlight=RAFIG), but I'm still getting some surging, and sometimes dying when I let off the throttle at slow speeds. This is typically like in a parking lot, or at a stop light. Where can I find details on the RAFIG process?

[Taz]

Thread below to a new idle tutorial by WeathermanShawn ...

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks

Don't believe he generally uses the RAFIG process ... give the thread a look ... excellent read

Regards,
Taz

[Boost]

I selected MAP PSI instead of kpa for the map column since that's what I had in my tune file. Is that correct?

[WeathermanShawn]

Boost:

For those calculations I always keep everything metric. I would switch the Tune Tool and your Pids to the same units. Makes the math easier IMO..

[joecar]

In the tunetool, go Edit->Configure Display Units and locate any occurance of MAP and set it to Metric...

do this by clicking on the column heading for each of Data, Row, Col, and scroll down looking for "PSI"; if the "PSI" is not AC/oil/transmission related, highlight a block of them and do rightclick->Metric;

when finished, click OK, and restart the tunetool.