Working on my idle tune

[blsnelling]

I've been working on my idle tune for the last few days. I've finished the Calc.VE tune. I've also followed the Tuning Tutorial and done one round of RAFIG adjustments. I'm still getting surging at times where the truck will eventually die. This will happen if I'm setting idling, bump the throttle to move forward a little, and then let off. Anything obvious in my tune?

9148

[WeathermanShawn]

BLS:

I should probably give someone else a chance to help you out..especially with an Auto Trans.

You might review your B5934. Those are some wild numbers. That might be wrecking havoc with your spark.

Perhaps someone with an Auto trans will help out. They are definitely tricker than the Manuals..

Good luck..

[blsnelling]

I didn't want to clutter up your sticky thread any more:)

B5934 - Those are the numbers that came in my tune, except for B4505, which I changed per the Tuning Tutorial. I'm going to set all of these to what SSpdDmon has in the Tuning Tutorial.

Here's the tune with B5934 setup like SSpdDmons. 9149

[WeathermanShawn]

Like I said I do not have much experience with Auto's, but here are some general questions/pointers.

1. Does it happen at all ECT's.
2. What Vehicle Speed does it occur at.

Without starting a whole new Tutorial, you can log up to 24 channels on EFILive. If you pick as many Spark and Idle Pids (TC,TF,etc..) then you can isolate the stall/surge according to which Table is in effect. For example it could be stalling when you switch to the High-Octane Spark (not enough), or you see the TF Air go to zero..

Thats all I have for now. Hopefully we can get some Auto trans guys to help out..:).

[DrkPhx]

Do you have a log you can post? What are the mods? The spark values in the idle region of the spark high and low octanes tables are wacked out and don't match the spark in gear values. Also the idle underspeed and overspeed values should be changed to help minimize the swing.

[blsnelling]

I did bump idle spark values, as advised by Shawn. Maybe I didn't do it right:confused:

I'll have to get you a new log, since there are changes since my last log.

Here's my setup.

'01 GMC Sierra ECSB 4x4, '04 6.0L LQ4 Shortblock, 243 Heads Milled .035 11:1 Compression, Mild Hand P&P, Pac 1218 Springs, Yank PT3200 Stall, Comp Cam 220/224, .581/.581, 112+0 LSA, LS7 Lifters, Melling HP Oil Pump, TBSS Intake Manifold, Edelbrock 3864 90mm T-Body, Doug Thorley LT Tri-Y ceramic headers, Flowmaster 50 SUV, LS1 e-fans, Airaid MIT, Complete valve body build up, 4.30:1 + Detroit TrueTrac,
33/12.50-17 Tires.

[WeathermanShawn]

BLS:

It all depends on what Spark table is controlling at the time. If you have the Throttle engaged and then release it..and it stalls..You might have transitioned from High-Octane Spark to either Base Spark in Gear or Park/Neutral. If you have encountered KR recently, it could even be referencing the Low-Octane Spark.

As I have written "Idle Tips and Tricks", I am purely covering Idle ( 0.0 MPH, 0.0 TPS) and not the many complex transitions from Throttle to Idle.

Normally, one might first construct your High-Octane..then construct Low-Octane. You might then construct Base Spark in Gear with the Spark Mods mentioned in the Tips & Tricks, copy that Table to Park/Neutral. The whole goal is not to have your Spark rapidly change with TPS, but still be in that 22-26 degree range when you are solely at Idle.

Without logging all the Spark and Idle Pids necessary it is somewhat a guess as to what is happening with your Spark and Air. If your Spark is dropping rapidly and too low..you will stall. If your fueling goes too rich..you will bog and then stall. If you are too lean you will surge..then stall. If your Airflow is too low and drops off too rapidly..it will stall. If you Airflow is too high, your Idle will hang.

Now you can see why many tuners do not post their tips on Idle. Every car is different. It is a very tedious procedure. You have to be willing to log all the parameters I mentioned. The Idle Tutorials are all set up to eliminate big swings in Fuel, Spark, and Air.

Try working on the actual Desired Airflow first. If that is right that is 50% of the battle.

Good luck. If you get stuck, post some more logs..

[blsnelling]

Thanks Shawn. I just logged RAFPN after setting all night. I need to add .075-2.00, depending on the cell. I'll do another RAFIG tomorrow morning, and see how they compare. I'll also take a closer look at the different spark tables.

[blsnelling]

Here's my RAFPN log from this morning, along with the modified tun. I added a bunch of pids, but probably won't help much since this was idle only.

9152

9151

[blsnelling]

Base Spark In Gear is now copied to Base Spark in Park, and now doesn't vary more than 3* from High-Octane.

9153

[WeathermanShawn]

You know if you open your Tune Tool and have your Scan Tool linked, you can watch in real time what Table both your Spark and Air are coming from.

Definitely looks like Spark was coming from B5933 from your early morning Idle.

How did it run on warm-up?

[blsnelling]

It ran perfectly this morning. It started easily, and never missed a beat. I haven't driven it yet though. Yesterday morning, I couldn't hardly get it to stay running at all for the first 15-20 seconds. I made quite a few changes to the tune yesterday, so don't know exactly what helped there. I've never had an issue with it just setting there and idling. My issues, other than starting yesterday, have always been related to surging, or falling off and dying when letting off the throttle in gear.

This morning's changes where to bump the Desired Idle Air, according to my RAFPN, and bump the idles areas of High-Octane Spark to be within 3° of my Base Spark In Gear.

[blsnelling]

I just drove the truck, and it has no hint of surging in the least!

One small nit picky thing I'm noticing. When I come to a stop, it hangs around 900-1000 RPMs, for maybe one second, before falling to the desired idle of 650. What might that be?

[WeathermanShawn]

Most likely it is B4315, or one of the TF Decay Delays. You can manipulate the 'delay' in seconds until the TF air decays.

While it is always possible it is the TC B4309, you can always test that by just literally zeroing out the entire table, or change B4311, B4312 to a higher speed.

Glad to hear it is running better...

[blsnelling]

After looking at the tables you mentioned, I bet you it is B4318. Look at the value at 0 MPH, 1.00 seconds, just what I guestimated the delay to be. I'm going to make it .25 in all cells.

[blsnelling]

Yesterday morning, I logged RAFPN, from 20-93. This morning I logged RAFIG, from 8-92. Both gave nice smooth curves. The only hand-made correction were on the extreme ends where I couldn't log. Is it unheard of to have them cross like this?

9167

[blsnelling]

I just sent my wife out in the truck to run some errands. She has always hated the way it wants to die at idle, which it did even with the 5.3 and 212/218 cam. She just told me it idles great. No problems at all:) Thanks for the help and tutorials!

[WeathermanShawn]

I just sent my wife out in the truck to run some errands. She has always hated the way it wants to die at idle, which it did even with the 5.3 and 212/218 cam. She just told me it idles great. No problems at all:) Thanks for the help and tutorials!

Glad to hear it. Same with my wife..she occasionally takes the car into work. That turns a few heads! Hardest part was teaching her to drive a manual.:grin:

On your previous question, I am not totally sure of the answer. Common sense might tell me the Airflows do not cross, but I would just try it for a while and see. Try it again on a real cold morning and see what you come up with.

You should see the Idle really settle down after 4-5 starts. You have a few Airflow Learning Parameters that the PCM will continue to learn.

Enjoy your ride..

[blsnelling]

Would it be wise for me to let it get a couple cold starts/warmups on it before logging RAFPN or RAFIG again? I didn't know if it needed to learn it's trims before logging again or not. As of right now though, it's running great. The tune it has in it right now, is the one with Desired Airflow as above, so the lower RAFIG appears to be sufficient.

[WeathermanShawn]

Would it be wise for me to let it get a couple cold starts/warmups on it before logging RAFPN or RAFIG again? I didn't know if it needed to learn it's trims before logging again or not. As of right now though, it's running great. The tune it has in it right now, is the one with Desired Airflow as above, so the lower RAFIG appears to be sufficient.

Yea, I always like to let the Idle 'settle' before re-logging Airflows. If it is running great, just let at least 3-4 days go by before a re-try. Those values will always differ slightly from day to day. I usually do two RAFIG and MAF Desired Airflows a year. One winter, one summer. I do not think it has budged in over a year.

If it is good, let her ride..:shock:

[blsnelling]

It's still looking like I've got my In Gear idle tune nailed down pretty well. However, when I put the truck in Part or Neutral, the RPMs jump, and fluctuate between 800-900, even though I have the desired idle set to 650. Would this be caused by too little or too much Desired Air Flow in Park/Neutral? Do I need larger or smaller numbers in the table cells for Park/Neutral?

[WeathermanShawn]

That would be my guess.

If it stays at a higher Idle, obviously there is too much air. Does it decay within a few seconds or just hang there?

If it decays fast then it could be of the Start-Up Airflow Corrections..most likely Start-Up Friction Airflow Correction. If it just hangs I would try lowering your Park/Neutral Airflows in .5 g/s increments. Iit should become obvious pretty quick. Again, this is assuming you are totally stopped and at Idle..

[blsnelling]

Yes, completely stopped and at idle. It stays there and never comes down. It also continues to fluctuate.

[WeathermanShawn]

I am assuming B4310 has all zero's (it should). B4315 should also be zero at 0.0 TPS.

No doubt it is an Airflow Parked Table. Anytime your RPM's are at or below desired Idle value, thats where all your Learning Airflow Parameters B4512-B4516 kick in. So, it is somewhat 'normal' for Rpms to fluctuate in that case.

I would attempt to lower your Desired Airflow (P/N).

[blsnelling]

I am assuming B4310 has all zero's (it should). B4315 should also be zero at 0.0 TPS.

No doubt it is an Airflow Parked Table. Anytime your RPM's are at or below desired Idle value, thats where all your Learning Airflow Parameters B4512-B4516 kick in. So, it is somewhat 'normal' for Rpms to fluctuate in that case.

I would attempt to lower your Desired Airflow (P/N).

B4310 is all zeros, but B4315 is 1.00, the factory setting. So change it to 0.00 ehh? Did I miss that in the tutorials some where? Don't remember seeing it mentioned.

Can you explain why idle trims don't bring the idle down in a case like this?

[WeathermanShawn]

B4310 is all zeros, but B4315 is 1.00, the factory setting. So change it to 0.00 ehh? Did I miss that in the tutorials some where? Don't remember seeing it mentioned.

I have included my TF Airflow via attachment. Normally, you don't want it active at 0.0 TPS. Mine is stock.

Can you explain why idle trims don't bring the idle down in a case like this?

It is probably too much of an Airflow Correction to be learned (hard limits). You really don't want large corrective airflows to be learned, or your Idle would swing wildly all the time.



This is my best 'guess' as to what is happening. Remember all the TC,TF Airflows need to eventually decay or Idle will hang..Give those a try..

[blsnelling]

My bad Shawn. I was looking at B4321:confused: My B4315 ranges from 0.00 to 0.13. That's still a huge difference from yours.

[WeathermanShawn]

My bad Shawn. I was looking at B4321:confused: My B4315 ranges from 0.00 to 0.13. That's still a huge difference from yours.

I'm not sure if there is a M6 vs Auto difference on B4315. A B4321 of 1.00 is exactly what you want.

Nevertheless, its probably still your Airflow P/N. Another 'fun' Pid to log is 'IAC SUM DMA'. Thats your total airflow. If you log it along with TC,TF, and every other IAC Pid your Scan Tool will allow, its easy to see how they all act as modifiers to the Airflow. Since SUM Airflow is the total sum..its a great Pid to help diagnose Hanging Idles..

[blsnelling]

Shawn, I've been going back through the Idle Tutorial and your idle tips. The main difference I see is that you don't recommend so much air in B4309, Throttle Cracker Airflow In Gear. He has his as high as 12.00, while yours maxes out at a little over 1. Comments? Here's my tune as of now. Should I lower B4309 back down?

9181

[WeathermanShawn]

The Throttle Cracker in Gear can be a tricky table to tune. A lot is personal preference, but you have to really understand the Table to tune it properly.

Too much air and when you let the foot off the gas, the car will coast forever. Since the additional air prevents the RPM's from dropping, a lot of times the car will begin to buck and or surge. Remember your foot is off the throttle, so injector flow is very minimum. Cam cars can really buck with a lot of TC Air.

Too little and when you let your foot off the throttle it will feel like someone just put the brakes on. It also makes the throttle feel stiff..like you have to continuously press it to keep at speed.

The 2002 LS1 M6 had a lot of TC Air in them. No other year did. None of the Automatics had that much air. I think SSpdDmon took out a lot of air in the lower Rpms and kept it at higher Rpms.

If you find your Rpms never drop at highway speed or you car overly bucks..take air out. I'm not sure an auto would want that much air in it. Personally I would start lower on the TC and try differing combinations. My car feels best with that 1-2 g/s in the TC. I put most of my air in the Throttle Follower. That way you get the air when you push the throttle down, but when you let off the throttle it decays almost instantly. Its kinda like an old fashion 'accelerator' pump.

Sorry for the dissertation, but thats my best take on it.:)

[blsnelling]

I made the changes we discussed last night. This morning I flashed it and did a RAFPN. The truck is still idling excellent in gear. But in park, it's still idling a little high, and fluctuating up and down. Here's the tune and a log. The log is on a fully warmed up vehicle, just back from driving several miles. I start of in part, move it to in gear, and then back to park. I believe I've included all the applicable IAC pids.

9191

9190

[WeathermanShawn]

I would still try lowering your Airflow in P/N...

I see your IAC Sum is a little high. Almost all of it is coming from your P/N Airflow...

[blsnelling]

The truck is running great. I've pulled 1.0 gr/sec out of the RAFPN, and it's idling lower like it should now.

95% of the time, everthing's perfect. Then this morning, it decided to do the surge thing and died. This happened in a "car line" dropping off my daughter at school, stop and go driving. Most of the time, there's no surging at all, or dips below 650. What might it be?

The only other thing, the idle will never come down to the commanded 650 RPM after a startup, until after you drive it a minute. It can be a fully warmed up engine, idling at 650 RPMs, turn it off and immediately restart it, and it'll idle a couple hundred RPMs higher until you drive it. What would cause this? Only a minor annoiance, but not right none the less.

[WeathermanShawn]

BLS:

Glad to hear that for the most part your vehicle is running good.

Your tune also has a lot of sophisticated changes from stock. So, I am not 100% positive if your RPM issue is from one of the many Idle-General items (many items) or under Start-Up (parameters..entire section). As you can see there are many, many Tables that can add or subtract air and spark.So my suggestion to you is to load up a comparable stock tune and then hit the Tab that says 'Load Alternate calibration for comparison'. Then hit the tab just to the right of it that says 'show summary of differences...'. Its a great way to view how many tables may be contributing to the problem. Sometimes it is just one digit in a table that can make a good tune go bad.

Overall, it is probably just a matter of perfecting the RAGIG & RAFPN. +/-.5 g/s can make a big difference.

I can not find the one table that may be causing your problem. It still sounds like a decay issue as it 'goes away' in one minute. You will have to be the detective from this point, as it is not readily clear from just your scans.

Thats my suggestion. Slowly work on every single table that shows a difference from stock and see if you can find it. Of course leave your VE, MAF, Spark, Idle Tutorial changes alone.

Idle is very tedious work. Good luck..

[blsnelling]

Thanks Shawn. I'm very pleased with the progress we've made. I'd really call this fine tuning at this point. My LC1 has been shipped, so should be able to do some WOT tuning shortly.

[blsnelling]

I've been looking at the compare, and noticed some interesting differences.

B0107 - Max Speed for Idle Mode is set to 1, stock is 0.

B0108 - Max Throttle for Idle Mode is set to 1.0, stock is 0.

B0105 - Wide Open Throttle is set to 80, stock is 100.

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes sometimes it amazing how many little things can be different from stock, but in many cases they just add unnecessary complexity and in reality no gain at all.

I like to keep my tune simple. As close to stock on many of those 'little' parameters. Maybe I can add it to the Idle Tutorial here in the next few days.

Basically, here is what I have changed.

1. VE Table
2. MAF Calibration
3. All Spark tables (that takes a lot of time!).
4. PE Fueling
5. Everything in the Idle Tutorial.

I try to leave everything else alone..

[blsnelling]

I'm going to change those 1s back to 0, and WOT back to 100%. Those were in the base tune I bought.

[joecar]

Looks to be coming along nicely... good job :cheers:

[blsnelling]

Thanks Joe. Only with you guys help!

[blsnelling]

I think those 1s were the problem. It now doesn't idle all the way down until I'm completely stopped. I think that will stop and hint of surging like popped up this morning.

[WeathermanShawn]

BLS:

If that does not solve it, look through every parameter from B0107 through B4522.

That means every Idle folder and sub-folder. Same with Start-Up. Go from B4340 through B4604. Yes, every single one. You would not believe how many affect Idle and RPM.

A good way is just to load a stock tune..rename it (New Idle Tun). Save your existing one. Cut & Paste your VE Table, Injectors, Spark, MAF, whatever you have actually done one your tune. Then proceed from there.

I know it sounds hardcore but the idea is to eliminate as many Tables as possible that could be adversely affecting Idle and your Rpm's. Your only other Idle Table that might be different from stock is B4403, since you are running a different size Throttle-Body.

Maybe the Idle Parameter change will do the trick, but that would be my next step if the problem(s) exist...

[blsnelling]

I just did as you suggested, and have a few tables I wasn't sure what to do with.

B0701 Disable
B3601 14.173012
B3608 0
B3610 0
B3632 0.5
B3615 75 @ 0 to 60 at high RPMs
B3616 Same as above
B3609 All 0s
B4350 93
B5908 Very different
B6244 Higher at lower RPMs
C2911 Way higher values than stock
B3643 0.5
B4105 Much lower than stock
B3406 Lower than stock except at cold temps, where higher

[WeathermanShawn]

I just did as you suggested, and have a few tables I wasn't sure what to do with.

B0701 Disable
Your option. That only affects WOT fueling. Gives ~1.25 EQ of fuel in PE Mode. Should have no effect on Idle!
B3601 14.173012
I use 14.124 for E10 Fuel.
B3608 0
0
B3610 0
0
B3632 0.5
Mine scales from 2.5 (-40C) to 0.08 (140C). That one is very important. I use stock.
B3615 75 @ 0 to 60 at high RPMs
I use stock. Only effects PE Mode, not Idle..
B3616 Same as above
I use my own custom values. Only effects PE Mode, not Idle..
B3609 All 0s
All 0's.
B4350 93
I use 84. That number may be different depending on Throttle Body. Very important value to get right!
B5908 Very different
Mine are all zeros. I wondered why yours was so different? Some of those figures may be effecting Idle.
B6244 Higher at lower RPMs
Are those Knock Parameters?
C2911 Way higher values than stock
Another one that I am not sure why your values are higher. May be your Throttle Body or MAF? Should only effect DTC's, not Idle..
B3643 0.5
I use stock. Another PE Mode modifier..
B4105 Much lower than stock
That one really worries me. I prefer stock. Those values directly influence Closed-Loop Fueling at Idle.
B3406 Lower than stock except at cold temps, where higher
Another very sophisticated modifier on your tune. May influence your Idle fueling..


BLS:

Again, good work. Someone had done a lot of very sophisticated changes to your stock tune. A lot of them are probably meant to alleviate fueling concerns at Idle.

Are any other Airflow Tables altered anywhere in your tune? Any Start-Up Airflows or Idle Rpm compensations that might be causing a problem?

[blsnelling]

Yes, there were several other tables change, but I was comfortable in changing them back to stock without more input. I'm probably ruining a good tune, lol:) This tune came from a highly reputable tuner that sponsors several forums. I just bought the EFI Live so that I could dial it in to my own liking, and not have to fool with shipping ECMs back and forth. I'm going to give this new tune a whirl though and see if I like it any better.

[blsnelling]

Here's what I ended up with.

9220

The idle is now coming down as it should without driving it first. However, it now hangs at 1500 RPMs for several seconds when I blip the throttle.

[WeathermanShawn]

Here's what I ended up with.

9220

The idle is now coming down as it should without driving it first. However, it now hangs at 1500 RPMs for several seconds when I blip the throttle.

Is this in Gear or Park? At all ECT's?

In general where I see you have a lot more airflow than I do is:

1. B4605..Mine are all zeros.
2. B4338..Mine are all zeros.
3. B4339..Mine are all zeros.
4. B4307. I am about 2-3 g/s lower than you (in gear-M6).
5. B4352..Mine are all zeros.

Granted I have a M6. Maybe when we are through with this we may have you write up an Idle Tutorial for automatics..:grin:.

Now if this is happening at all ECT's, but you can narrow it down to P/N or in gear..It obviously sounds like too much Desired Airflow or too much air in the Throttle Follower.

But if you did not change those parameters..then narrow it by ECT and Gear..

[blsnelling]

This was in Park at all temps. I have not had it in gear yet. My Desired Airflow is the same as was before, so don't think it's that. This acts to be a timed delay decay, but I didn't see a parameter that looked like what I needed. I thought it might be B4319, but it has the same value as before at 0 MPH, 0.02.

[WeathermanShawn]

Obviously your vehicle has many more Tables for P/N.

But if you are hitting the throttle also consider the Throttle Follower. My Decay is much faster than yours (P/N) with 0 seconds delay...That should bring it down a lot faster..

[blsnelling]

I've made all the changes in posts 47 and 49, except I left my Desired Airflow alone. I'll give this a whirl.

9223

[WeathermanShawn]

You can always log TF to verify, but when you hit the Throttle while in park, Idle should be disengaged and then Table B4315 and B4316 is commanding the IAC opening (along with Desired Airflow). TC should be inactive at 0 mph.

So, when you blip the throttle it needs to decay..using B4319 and B4320.

Thats my thought. As you say, give it a whirl..

[blsnelling]

Much improved. Idle is not hanging like it was at all. That's fixed. I think my RAFPN may still be a little high. It's idling about 100 RPMs higher than commanded, only in Park. In gear is right where it should be. I'm not good at reading these logs. Here's all my IAC idle pids logged after this latest update. The first section is from starting it hot and letting it set and idle in Park, then there's a pause and I move it to Drive. I blip the throttle a few times and watch it settle down. I then put it back in park and let it idle a little more. I've still not driven it yet.

9226

[WeathermanShawn]

Logs are always very useful. I agree they can be hard to read..but for example.

When you 'blipped' your Throttle, I highlighted the TF Airflow. It briefly went up to 20 g/s (per your Tables), then rapidly decreased. Thats how you use a log.

Sometimes it all makes more sense when you go with Metric... g/s works out real nice. Multiples of 10, 100, etc.

So the trick is highlight one Pid at a time and see if Airflow & Rpm match up. Getting your RPM where you want it may be tough. If you lower air too much, you will be back to surging and stalling.

Keep at it. You are doing good with all your logging. Do you feel like you are learning as you go along?

[blsnelling]

How do I get the Dashboard to display all the pids I logged? I'm not seeing all the IAC pids.

So where would I go to attempt to get my Park idle where I want it, if not by lowering RAFPN? I'm already lower than what RAFPN logging suggests I need.

[WeathermanShawn]

[QUOTE=blsnelling;131353]How do I get the Dashboard to display all the pids I logged? I'm not seeing all the IAC pids.

I always center my mouse over the 'Chart Properties' and then right click. You will have metric, Imperial, and 'Other Pids'. A lot of them will show up in Metric (which is good for comparing).

So where would I go to attempt to get my Park idle where I want it, if not by lowering RAFPN? I'm already lower than what RAFPN logging suggests I need./QUOTE]

I think RAFPN is exactly where you need to make the necessary airflow changes. Its tough to say if it is just Airflow pushing your Rpms higher. Anything in your Idle Speed or Rpm Compensation that could be adding Rpms?

When you log and post..let me (us) know what Frame(s) show exactly where you are encountering problems. Then at that frame it is much easier to calculate all the sources of airflow...

I mean your Spark is bouncing around a lot at Idle. Anyway to get it steadier, or is close to stalling at times?

[5.7ute]

How do I get the Dashboard to display all the pids I logged? I'm not seeing all the IAC pids.

So where would I go to attempt to get my Park idle where I want it, if not by lowering RAFPN? I'm already lower than what RAFPN logging suggests I need.

Your idle spark in P/N matches in gear. You may not need as much spark in P/N as the load is lower. (I have done stuff all auto cals so this is a best guess)

[blsnelling]

I mean your Spark is bouncing around a lot at Idle. Anyway to get it steadier, or is close to stalling at times?
I noticed that. No, it's not about to stall, but 650 is a pretty low idle and it's loping pretty good. I like the way it sounds at that RPM:)


Your idle spark in P/N matches in gear. You may not need as much spark in P/N as the load is lower. (I have done stuff all auto cals so this is a best guess)
Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out.

[blsnelling]

I went back through my tune, comparing it with my previous best, before making all these changes. If the high idle before driving came back, I was going to simply eliminate the difference in tunes, one at a time. Amazingly, it is running nigh unto perfect. As noticed, there are a lot of complex changes that were made to my initial mail order tune. I'm sure there's a reason behind each one. If there wasn't something obviously flawed with it, and wasn't causing me trouble, I wanted to retain it. Basically, I didn't want to remove something that really should be in there. I've also incorporated all the idle tips from Shawn, which also includes a lot fo the idle tutorial.

Unless something shows up, which it always seems to do, lol, I think my idle and driveability is there. I'm very pleased with the way it's running. I did a 25-80 MPH run this morning and it still broke the tires loose at that speed and spun until it shifted into second. It shifted crisply into 3rd, and that's when I let off. I can now concentrate on getting the LC1 installed and dialing in PE mode.

Tons of thanks to everyone, and especially Shawn. He's been here to help me along every step of the way!

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks for the compliment.

I must say I always enjoy working with people who put in all the effort necessary for a good tune. You were very efficient and open-minded to try everything suggested. You did all the work and posting the logs and tunes really help.

I take it you will be using serial connection on your wideband. PE tuning is a lot of fun.

Feel free to report back on your tuning progress..

[blsnelling]

Yes, I bought a custom cable for the LC1 that snaps into the v2.

I just got back from driving it, and one small glitch. One time, setting in the drive through line, it tried to die, but caught itself. Time to look at these tables a little more?:) Previously had the Stall Saver RPMs only 100 under desired. I think I'll try that again. BTW, Idle speeds are dead on it in both Park and Drive.

[blsnelling]

Could you please post a screen shot of your Idle -> Learning -> Parameters?

[WeathermanShawn]

Glad to hear RPM/Idle Speeds are on.

Sometimes Spark will drop..Rpm's will fall and then hopefully the Spark/Airflow changes we made will kick in and prevent the stall.

If you want to fine-tune some of that, then look over B5934, B5935, & B5936. Those limit the Spark swings you get at Idle.

I have not used Stall Saver, but would be interested in knowing how it works. If you find your vehicle is more prone to stalling at higher ECT's, you can add a little more air into the RAFIG, RAFPN at the appropriate ECT.

[blsnelling]

I'm still having occassional issues with my idle. 99% of the time, it's perfect. Where I'm having issues is if I'm doing stop-and-go in a car line, such as a drive thru. I'll be setting there idling, just barely touch the throttle, I'm talking like 1000-1200 RPMs, move forward a few feet, let off the throttle, and it'll dip way down to like 300, try to catch itself, and then die. If I do even a couple MPH, it won't do this. I've increased the throttle follower delay, and decrease the decay rate. But it's like this isn't being activated when I give it that little throttle and/or move that little or slowly. When I move forward a little faster or farther, I can see the TF delay and it's decay, and the idle settles down slowly. Where's the throttle plate supposed to be? I have an adjustable stop on my t-body. I've tried opening it up, but with only 1/4 turn more, the idle starts surging up and down, non-stop. I'm guessing that I'd need less desired airflow if I left it there? Maybe adjusting the stop isn't part of the answer. I'm not sure what else to try.

[WeathermanShawn]

Its a tough call on what is happening.

Two other things to think about..Is your Spark values changing (dropping rapidly) when this happens. Secondly, if your fueling goes momentarily rich or lean..one would bog and stall, the other would also stall.

It someone still sounds like not enough air, followed by a slightly unstable Spark when you are going to the High-Octane Spark. A log right at the stall point might give a clue..

[blsnelling]

I'm sure I can duplicate it and catch it in a log file.

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes, that would be a good idea.

Its right in that transition where both TC and TF may be active. Also, if I recall we may have '0' air in the lowest TF TPS % settings (B4315). That was to prevent Throttle from hanging, but that may be where you are having problems.

I am not sure if the manual throttle adjustments are helping or hurting..:confused:.

[blsnelling]

I've changed B4315 several times. I'm not sure where it is right now. The laptop's in the truck. Which should activate TC and TF the earliest?

[blsnelling]

Here's a log of it happening. I captured both low dips to maybe 300 where it caught it and recovered, and also where it died. You'll see other times where it doesn't dip at all. BTW, max speed and throttle for idle are both set at 1.

9357

[WeathermanShawn]

If I look at Frame 34 just before it died, I see both the TC and TF go to zero. I take it your technique is the car is in gear, then you put it into P/N (forgive me, it has been a while since I have driven an Auto)?

It is only stalling in P/N or when you go from in Gear to P/N?

What I would do is look at an exact Frame # on you log, then go to the data page. Preferably using g/s, at the exact stall frame..list exactly the Value of each Airflow. I guarantee you it will only stall when there is not enough Airflow for that particular IAC position.

So, perhaps we are back to P/N Airflow. Regardless of what RAFPN says, you may need more air at that point.

At of curiosity what is the Airflow Value of 400 RPM on Table B4309? I have mine at 4 g/s. I see you go to '0' TC when you stall. That may be normal as the TC deactivates, but I am just curious.

[blsnelling]

I does not try to die when put in gear. What I'm doing is holding the brake and giving it 1000-1200 RPMs, then letting off. That's when it will do it's thing.

B4309 is 4.00 all the way across at 400 RPMs. At 1000, it's 0.00-.71. That might be it right there. Once I increas the RPMs above 1000, I'm getting way less air on the way back down. Maybe I'll make the 1000 row 4.00 as well.

[WeathermanShawn]

Try that.

Just add it at the very lowest MPH values(s) or you will have the cruise control effect.

The other option(s) are to manipulate B4311 and B4312 to not deactivate, or slow down B4313 to something like 0.07 at the lowest MPH values.

But, just to be 100% sure..Are you in Gear Airflow or in P/N when it happens?

[blsnelling]

In gear only. P/N is not a concern, since I would never need to "tickle" the throttle unless in gear.

Where would you put B0107 and B0108, 0 or 1?

[WeathermanShawn]

Sorry, like I said I have not driven an AUTO for years..

Whats throwing me is your log is always showing the IAC PARK Airflow..probably just the look-up Table value.

So why at Frame 20 is your IAC SUM showing 7.73 g/s then frame 21 shows 9.8 g/s. Whats bumping it up there as I see TC and TF is both zero.

Is there some other Accessory Air that is influencing your Idle?

[blsnelling]

I'm playing with the throttle with my foot. That's how I get it to sag, and sometime stall. I was holding it at maybe 1000-1200 and then letting off.

[blsnelling]

This is really getting old. I let my wife drive it to work today. Backing into a parking spot, it died again. Am I asking for it to idle too low at 650 RPMs? Perhaps I should set my in gear idle speeds higher, and leave park/neutral at 650. It'll set there an idle all day long at 650, but I just can't get it to quit occassionally stalling in gear. Now, just setting there idling in gear, it'll idle all day long too. It's only when you give it a little gas and let back off, such as she did today backing into a parking spot.

[DrkPhx]

650 rpms is low for an auto car with a cam (didn't get the specs). You need to get start at a higher idle rpm so the truck doesn't kill or surge and work your way down. Idle tuning is tedious and time consuming especially when your target rpm is that low.

[DrkPhx]

Can you post some logs when the truck is stalling? I don't see any airflow correction for the cooling fans which would only affect ECT temps they are running.

[DrkPhx]

I looked at the tune in a earlier post and noticed the difference in spark values in the idle region on the High and Low Spark Octane Tables as well In Gear table. I don't know if you changed these yet, but they have to be the same value otherwise it can initiate idle swing which is exasperated by other parameters trying to compensate. One example is the Idle Spark Over and Under Speed tables. I adjusted the tune in those tables listed above to give you an example.

Without a log showing the exact problem, this is just a guess because it could be something else. But the goal is to stabilize the spark through the various tables and minimize big swings. Step 1 is NOT to use your foot to control the TPS to prevent stalling when you are logging. Use the DVT engine control features to prevent stalling so you know what is exactly causing the problems. Sorry for long winded reply.

[WeathermanShawn]

Can you post some logs when the truck is stalling? I don't see any airflow correction for the cooling fans which would only affect ECT temps they are running.

BLS:

Could you please Re-post your latest Tune..

If you don't have any airflow correction for the Fans that will kill your engine (stall).

DrkPhx..thanks for your help. It helps to have someone with experience with Auto's helping out. BLS, raising Idle Speed or adding Air usually works. But ad DrkPhx states Spark and Fuel are equally important parameters to nail.

Keep at it..

[blsnelling]

Thanks for the help guys. Help yourself to my tune. I'll certainly try it out. I see what you're talking about with the timing swings. That's actually something that was mentioned in my logs, but hadn't actually been addressed in the tune.

Concering the log, I was only using the throttle to initiate the stall. The truck will set there and idle all day long. It's only when I give the truck a little throttle in a car line, or something like parking that it will act up.

I noticed that you set most of my idle timing to 22 degrees. In playing around with my tune, I've found that higher timing seemed to help. But then again, my tables weren't consistent. I'm going to give this a try and see what happens. If I'm not satisfied, I'll try higher idle timing, but keep it consistent across the tables.

I'm posting my last tune, and then my last tune with DrkPhx's changes.

9373

9374

[WeathermanShawn]

Anytime you hit the Throttle you are exiting Idle..see B0108.

That immediately transitions you to the High-Octane Spark table. Then as your Throttle decreases back to ~0 TPS, you will go back to the Base Spark in Gear. All of the Idle Airflow Parameters are active only at Idle (TPS< 1%), so you may be experiencing either a huge swing in Spark and or Fueling. I would look at the High Octane Spark table for answers.

On a side note, I keep B5920 enabled. B5934 still looks like it needs modifying. One thing I do not understand are your values in B4324, B4325, and B4329. That means your PCM will learn extremely high swings in Airflow..you want the opposite..keep those limits stock or your Idle Airflow will go nuts.

Also, you need at least stock Airflow corrections for B4301 and B4302. Without them once your cooling fans kick in your car will most likely stall from the additional load. Out of curiosity has is your battery performance(voltage)?

[DrkPhx]

- I set it at 22 degrees as a base. It may be too high or low. However it's a good starting point. Most cams (even big ones) don't need a much timing as you think it does. This is assuming the VE, MAF and idle airflow are dialed in. I run 25.5 degrees of timing at idle with a decent size cam (26 degrees of overlap) and it will idle at 900-925 in gear. Once again use the DVT feature to help pinpoint the spark required for your vehicle. Use 2 degree increments plus or minus to start with to see how it responds.

- Reverse Gear stalling in an Auto is usually too low airflow or spark, but can be Throttle Follower and/or Cracker. Sometimes adding as little as .15 to the In Gear airflow and 1-2 degrees of spark to that specific region of the spark table will help without affecting the D idle. As always use the scan tune (runway highlighting is your friend here) to pinpoint the exact MAP kPa, rpm and gms/cyl regions in the affected tables. The upside is you can do this type of tuning safely in your driveway, the downside is your neighbors will think you're absolutely nuts as they watch you go up and down the driveway without leaving.

- What AFR does the WB read at idle and during the stall? I like to see a reading slightly lean reading between 14.6-15.2. Depends on the cam, but slightly leaner seems to help stabilize idle in my experience.

[blsnelling]

You'll have to talk down to me:) I'm a newbie at EFI Live. What is DVT, scan tune, and runway highlighting? If you can tell me what I need to do, I'll do it and post the results.

So far I've completed a CalcVE tune and have my VE and MAF tables dialed in. I've also made a couple passes at RAFPN and RAFIG.

Check out this log here for my AFRs. You'll also notice I'm fighting some KR at WOT, up to almost 7 degrees.

9375

[DrkPhx]

You'll have to talk down to me:) I'm a newbie at EFI Live. What is DVT, scan tune, and runway highlighting? If you can tell me what I need to do, I'll do it and post the results.

So far I've completed a CalcVE tune and have my VE and MAF tables dialed in. I've also made a couple passes at RAFPN and RAFIG.

Check out this log here for my AFRs. You'll also notice I'm fighting some KR at WOT, up to almost 7 degrees.

9375

Sorry. Here are some quick explanations.

DVT Controls - Bi-Directional controls on the "DVT" tab on far right tab on the scan tool (2 over from Dashboards). Click on the tab, then on the Engine Control tab. Note: The vehicle must be connected to view the PCM/ECM specific options. These allow real time control of key parameters such as spark, IAC, idle rpms, commanded AFR, etc. The changes are not permament, but will allow you to pinpoint troublesome areas by manipulating the parameters. Try it, you will like it. :)

- I meant scan tool, not scan tune. sorry.

- Runway highlighting - Probably the coolest feature of the scan tool. You can click and drag specific frames on the scan tool which in turn will highlight the exact areas in the tune tool. This eliminates guessing and shows the exact spot of certain tables in the tune file.

> In the Tune tool click on Edit (upper left corner), scroll down to Properties. Click on the Scanner tab and select Highlight Scan Tool Selection in Tuning Tool Maps and Runway Highlighting.

> Open a log in the Scan Tool and Tune Tool at the same time. Click and drag a small section on the scan tool. Look at the Main VE Table in the Tune tool and you will see entire columns and/or rows highlighted. The cell they connect at is the cell(s) highlighted from the scan tool. It will be grey in color compared to blue for the rest of the columns/rows. A picture is worth a thousand words in this case, but I don't know how to post screen shots.

[blsnelling]

Now that I've got my timing tables all synced in the idle area, I've tried to go back through EVERY table and set as recommended in this thread. I'll do another RAFPN and RAFIG and see where those are.

9380

[blsnelling]

Shawn, could you please confirm that you have all zeros in B3608, B36909, B3610, B4338, B4339, B4352, B4605, and B5908.

[blsnelling]

Shawn, thanks for posting your tune. That has helped a lot. I'm curious about you having the 0 row of B4319 set to 0. Doesn't that leave your RPMs hanging a long time if you blip the throttle at a stop? I've got mine set to .01 right now. It'll come down nicely from 2000-900, set there a second, and the come on down to 650. It's kind of odd how it stays at 900 for a sec.

[WeathermanShawn]

One thing I have learned from this thread is how different an Auto is from a M6. Quite honestly I never 'blip' my Throttle at a stop. I assume from your driving habits and your stall, thats a common thing. I like my Rpm to fall slowly and just 'quietly' hear the cam thump away at Idle.

I reviewed my Tune. I do have B4319 different from stock. I will try to update that on my Base Tune I have previously attached. As far as I know that should cover everything..

[blsnelling]

Actually, I rarely blip the throttle. I've just been doing it a lot testing my tune.

Right now I'm looking to make the RPMs settle slower at startup. I'm trying to decide what tables to try. What about B3628, B4304, B4344? I see I'm at 0 in B4304 at 80 and above. I'd like to see it hit 1200-1500 and settle relatively slowly when ever I start it, warm or cold.

+1 on the auto differences. 99% of what I'v fought here would likely have never been experienced with a manual.

[WeathermanShawn]

You are delving into areas I have rarely tested..

But B3628 sounds like an additional Fuel Modifier..not Air. I might stay away from that one.

I have never experimented with B4304 or B4344. As long as you can successfully juggle it in your mind, try it out.

If I understand B4511 correctly, all the Start-Up Airflow Parameters transition out after 4.5 seconds. So if you change any of the Start-Up parameters, make sure you log it and verify that they decay the way you want. You are probably on the right track with B4344.

Let me know if it works. That would be an interesting modification..

[blsnelling]

I find it beneficial to make a rather significant change, to see that you're affecting what you aim to be, and then fine tune it from there. I think I'll start with giving B4304 a value of one in the higher temps. If that doesn't do it, I'll experiment with B4344.

[WeathermanShawn]

I have updated the LS1 Base Tune I recommend in the Idle Tutorial. There were a few updates on PE RPM, TF Decay in gear and P/N.

Its as simple as I can get it, but should have everything needed for a M6 Tune. When you get your Auto Tune nailed, perhaps we can use yours?:)..

[DrkPhx]

- The Start up Airflow/Friction Airflow tables are used on Start up only. They are beneficial for initial cold start especially for large cammed cars with high static compression in stroker motors with the forged internals that are heavier than stock. The combination of those can require a substantial increase in start up airflow to get the car to idle correctly on cold start up. Each car is different, but I usually increase those even on small cammed car with a M6.

- The Afterstart Enrichment Table add fuel based on Coolant Temp using EQ ratio (not Lambda) so be careful when calculating the value into the final AFR equation. The Decay and Delay rates control how long the additional fuel stays active and the rate is decays. Typically you need less fuel on hot start up and need it to reduce quickly.

- Though not an exact science; "throttle blips" are a good test of the Follower airflow tables on a auto car equipped with a stall converter; especially big stalls. Because of the slippage from the big stall, it takes more TPS/rpms to move the car from idle to part throttle compared to a M6 car. When you let off the gas the rpms will drop pretty quickly (especially on bigger stalls) so you need the airflow cushion to catch it from stalling. That's one reason a idle that slightly hangs isn't that bad for a cammed A4 with a big stall.

[blsnelling]

-Though not an exact science; "throttle blips" are a good test of the Follower airflow tables on a auto car equipped with a stall converter; especially big stalls. Because of the slippage from the big stall, it takes more TPS/rpms to move the car from idle to part throttle compared to a M6 car. When you let off the gas the rpms will drop pretty quickly (especially on bigger stalls) so you need the airflow cushion to catch it from stalling. That's one reason a idle that slightly hangs isn't that bad for a cammed A4 with a big stall.

You are so accurately describing what I've been dealing with. The last sentence, which I bolded, is what I have finally got. I've been hesitant to say it, but the last two days have looked like I've finally got a good tune. It has not stalled on me one time. I'm just tweaking the small details to my liking at this point. I'm not sure exactly what created the effect I have now, but it happened by going back to a lot of stock settings, and then blending in what I though I needed from Shawn's tune.

[DrkPhx]

You are so accurately describing what I've been dealing with. The last sentence, which I bolded, is what I have finally got. I've been hesitant to say it, but the last two days have looked like I've finally got a good tune. It has not stalled on me one time. I'm just tweaking the small details to my liking at this point. I'm not sure exactly what created the effect I have now, but it happened by going back to a lot of stock settings, and then blending in what I though I needed from Shawn's tune.

Excellent. Sounds like you're getting it nailed down.