idle issues, help

[smslyguy]

I can't seem to get the car to idle at stoich. I dialed in the v.e tables and the desired airflow tables as well. I subtracted and added timming on the dvt, but still the car idles at around 13.2. It is cammed and in my sig. here is a copy of my scan.

[WeathermanShawn]

Doesn't make sense since you are in closed-loop. Your Trims look perfect.

100% chance it is your Wideband Analog set-up.

[smslyguy]

Don't know how it can be my wideband (unless it would be the switch points) cause it worked fine at idle before i put the cam in. hum??

[WeathermanShawn]

Well you are in closed-loop. As long as your O2's are working properly, they will almost always switch at stoich.

I only saw 'Engine Misfire' as a DTC on your log. Fairly normal for a cammed car at Idle.

Your Trims are perfect. Are your running SD-Closed-Loop or a COS and commanding something other than stoich at Idle?

You could always post your Tune and your Calc_pids.txt file. I posted my cam's WO2 at Idle..Thats 10 degrees of overlap and it burbles at stoich. It is always possible that an EFILive Firmware update and the way you have your wideband set-up might have changed.

My bet is still on the wideband, but I am sure we can figure it out..

[joecar]

Post some logs showing HO2S11 and HO2S21... we want this at the fastest sample rate, so remove the _DMA pids and the MAFFREQ pids.

[5.7ute]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, also log IBPW 1 or 2.

[smslyguy]

Well you are in closed-loop. As long as your O2's are working properly, they will almost always switch at stoich.

I only saw 'Engine Misfire' as a DTC on your log. Fairly normal for a cammed car at Idle.

Your Trims are perfect. Are your running SD-Closed-Loop or a COS and commanding something other than stoich at Idle?

You could always post your Tune and your Calc_pids.txt file. I posted my cam's WO2 at Idle..Thats 10 degrees of overlap and it burbles at stoich. It is always possible that an EFILive Firmware update and the way you have your wideband set-up might have changed.

My bet is still on the wideband, but I am sure we can figure it out..

Here is a copy of my tune. I am just running C.L.
I did try to increase and decrease timming all the way down to -6 degrees till i finally hit stoich on my wideband. Thought that was way to much of pulled timming at idle??

Let me know what you think. It still needs some work as it is a new tune.

[WeathermanShawn]

What does your wideband read at cruise?

Do you have any Logs or Screen Shots that show stoich AFR at Cruise?

The reason I am concentrating on the wideband reading is because it is highly unusual to see absolutely no swing in AFR at Idle. Cams normally give you a false lean at Idle. They gulp in extra air..it is unusual to see your scan.

So, either you are failing to go into closed-loop or your wideband settings (internal or in Calc.Pid) may be off. You might be able to discern this if you log in Lambda.

I personally don't see anything blatant in your tune that would provide any overly rich Closed-loop. Like ute5.7 & Joecar stated, a few more applicable Pids might help..

[smslyguy]

Post some logs showing HO2S11 and HO2S21... we want this at the fastest sample rate, so remove the _DMA pids and the MAFFREQ pids.

Here is a copy of the pids you requested. Let me know what you think. Seems they switch all over the place to me.

[smslyguy]

What does your wideband read at cruise?

Do you have any Logs or Screen Shots that show stoich AFR at Cruise?

The reason I am concentrating on the wideband reading is because it is highly unusual to see absolutely no swing in AFR at Idle. Cams normally give you a false lean at Idle. They gulp in extra air..it is unusual to see your scan.

So, either you are failing to go into closed-loop or your wideband settings (internal or in Calc.Pid) may be off. You might be able to discern this if you log in Lambda.

I personally don't see anything blatant in your tune that would provide any overly rich Closed-loop. Like ute5.7 & Joecar stated, a few more applicable Pids might help..

Shawn- wideband reads 14.4 at cruise. I know i didn't mention this but, the wideband is after the cat's, which is why it is at 14.4 instead of 14.6. The cat's seem to put my wideband off by.2.

What are you commanding for p.e mode on your cammed car?

[WeathermanShawn]

Seems like your O2's are switching pretty good at cruise..but they seem stuck at >800 mv at Idle. I can't see anything in your tune that would cause it. Perhaps a leaky injector?

Are your injectors stock?

I command a constant 1.1768 EQ for PE Mode or ~.85 Lambda. I have pretty much switched to EQ as my reference. I have been doing E10 tuning lately and found it very simple when I stick to that. For gasoline that would be ~12.5 AFR (reference only). E10 would be ~12.0 AFR (reference only). I just use a calculated pid for E10.

I stick to one EQ value as I found it very difficult to tune with a variable PE value. If I WOT 3rd gear from 3000 Rpm-6000, we are talking only 3-4 seconds. I can't get 4th gear wound out too much on the street. So, I pick a constant PE Value to make my target easier to hit.

We will have to get some more opinions on your Idle AFR..

[smslyguy]

injectors are stock and the car only has 44,000 miles on it so it would be unlikely, but not imposible to have a leaky injector. Makes sense as to only camand a constent value while in p.e. mode.

Do you still think my w.b is off at idle? Or is it indeed still running rich?

[WeathermanShawn]

Its a little tough to say. It could be a combination of a few items.

1. Wideband after cats. Your exhaust temperature may be biased that far from the engine. Your O2 content may be altered. Obviously as close to the narrowbands is ideal. I used the location that Innovate advised.

2. Narrowbands slow at Idle. Thats my take. Might try a fresh set.

So the answer is yes.. your car appears to be running rich at Idle. The fresh narrowbands and relocating the wideband, while a hassle would be a very smart thing to do. The other suggestion might be to log SAE.FUELSYS is the 'Fuel" tab of pids to see if you are going into closed-loop. I don't think you are at Idle..

[smslyguy]

Its a little tough to say. It could be a combination of a few items.

1. Wideband after cats. Your exhaust temperature may be biased that far from the engine. Your O2 content may be altered. Obviously as close to the narrowbands is ideal. I used the location that Innovate advised.

2. Narrowbands slow at Idle. Thats my take. Might try a fresh set.

So the answer is yes.. your car appears to be running rich at Idle. The fresh narrowbands and relocating the wideband, while a hassle would be a very smart thing to do. The other suggestion might be to log SAE.FUELSYS is the 'Fuel" tab of pids to see if you are going into closed-loop. I don't think you are at Idle..

I did log sae.fuelsystem and yes it says i am in c.l at idle.

It would be hard to believe that the narrow bands are slow or switching slow because they had just worked fine before the cam install,but for some reason they are. I do have prevous logs before the cam with them switching fine.

Do you think the "rich" idle could be do to overfueling from an intake leak?? But you would think it would be the other way around, running lean from a leak.

My other question is why is it that when i subtracted all the way down to -6 degrees of timming using the dvt that my wide band show stoich??

[WeathermanShawn]

Not sure on the O2's. Waiting to see if anyone else will take a look at your tune also. But, it might be worth the hassle to change them out.

I would avoid taking your timing down that low (-6 degrees).

How does it run at Idle? Can you live with that AFR?

[smslyguy]

Not sure on the O2's. Waiting to see if anyone else will take a look at your tune also. But, it might be worth the hassle to change them out.

I would avoid taking your timing down that low (-6 degrees).

How does it run at Idle? Can you live with that AFR?

It idles great just consuming more fuel than it would need if indeed it is actually running at 12.8-13.2 at idle. How is my v.e table as comparison to yours? I see you have a cam that is pretty close to mine.

[WeathermanShawn]

Your 800 RPM Row is much leaner than mine and my 400 Rpm Row is ~10% lower than the 800 Row. As an illustrative example the VE Table in the Idle Tutorial is close to my current values. I use some manual smoothing and blending.

I used the CALC.VE Table values to make my VE Table. I noticed you are using the older CALC.VE % which gives you lower VE Values than the new formula.

Your MAF values at Idle are a little higher than mine. You are a little over 8 g/s, I am at 7.5 g/s. But, that could be the altitude difference.

If I were to just look at your VE Values I would expect you would almost be lean at Idle. Have you altered any of the 'Charge Temperature' Tables? That might throw off your Idle fueling..:confused:

[smslyguy]

Your 800 RPM Row is much leaner than mine and my 400 Rpm Row is ~10% lower than the 800 Row. As an illustrative example the VE Table in the Idle Tutorial is close to my current values. I use some manual smoothing and blending.

I used the CALC.VE Table values to make my VE Table. I noticed you are using the older CALC.VE % which gives you lower VE Values than the new formula.

Your MAF values at Idle are a little higher than mine. You are a little over 8 g/s, I am at 7.5 g/s. But, that could be the altitude difference.

If I were to just look at your VE Values I would expect you would almost be lean at Idle. Have you altered any of the 'Charge Temperature' Tables? That might throw off your Idle fueling..:confused:

I never touch the charge temperature tables, they are still stock.

I have notice that the older calc v.e does give you lower ve values roughly about a 5-10% lower. I would still like to try your calc.ve tunning, but i can't seem to figure out how to add the calc_pids. I tried following the manual and even tried copy and pasting other's i have found on here, but with little to no luck.

[WeathermanShawn]

Nothing wrong with modifying your tune, but someone has made massive changes to numerous Tables, including charge temperature.

Figuring out Idle is like putting together a puzzle. I don't mind helping, but you should look over your tune and see how much has been altered. Hard for someone else to figure out what is wrong when so much has been altered..:)

[smslyguy]

9197
Nothing wrong with modifying your tune, but someone has made massive changes to numerous Tables, including charge temperature.

Figuring out Idle is like putting together a puzzle. I don't mind helping, but you should look over your tune and see how much has been altered. Hard for someone else to figure out what is wrong when so much has been altered..:)


I guess you are right now that you mentioned it i did infact change that. I changed them back to stock settings and here is a copy of that idle scan with stock settings, with little to no luck. It is still idleing at 12.8-13.2 no change.

Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for all your help thus far i do appreciate it.

[WeathermanShawn]

Smslyguy:

My greater point is that it is very difficult to work with idle tunes that have so many alterations from either stock or from the general principles of the Idle Tutorials. I counted over 200 changes in your tune, from your Idle Learn Minimum Temperature of 27C on.

I am not saying this to embarrass your or anyone else, but very few of us can figure out a tune that has so many changes.

My advice for anyone to save a stock tune..load your own VE, spark, airflow, etc..but do not touch any other fueling or airflow parameter.

My advice to you is to go back to stock, get some fresh O2's, and re-locate your wideband to the optimum exhaust position. As you can see from the thread responses, very few want to answer Idle questions..especially with a lot of tables altered.

If you really are in closed-loop and have a normal Idle Injector flow, then it is more likely your wideband not reading properly. If you want some differing opinions, you might re-post your question and see if anyone else has some fresh ideas.

Good luck..

[5.7ute]

Sorry for the late reply but it was Bathurst weekend after all. (What a great result, Holden filling out the top four positins)
Before we get too far into this, what are the analog settings for your LC-1? Can you flatline voltage & log the other analog output to check for offset errors? The O2 sensors do show a rich idle until they are warm enough to switch, but even when warm they appear to still be switching on the rich side of stoich according to your wideband.

[smslyguy]

Anolog settings?? Where would this be? HOw would you "flatline" voltage and log the other anolog output? There is a log in this thread with the stock o2 sensor's.

[5.7ute]

The lc-1 has 2 analog out channels. One is set at the factory to mimic a narrowband sensor. The other gives out a voltage according to lambda, which Efilive uses to convert into an AFR.
To minimise ground offsets, using the lm programmer connect to the wideband & reprogram the output in the channel that simulates a narrowband to a flat voltage.(EG 2.5 volts)
Logging both channels & using a custom pid you can remove any ground offset errors. Or you can just pony up a few dollars to TAQuickness if you have the V2 unit for a serial cable & remove these errors that way. I will post a link to the necessary steps when I find it.

[5.7ute]

Copying an old post of mine.
Another trick that I used to help you get accurate AFR values is this.
In logworks I set the EXT.AD1 channel to the same outputs as in the lc-1 tutorial. Then the EXT.AD2 channel to output a constant 2.5 volts.
I then changed the LM-1 pid in the programme files/efilive/V7/user configuration/sae generic txt file to (({EXT.AD1}-({EXT.AD2}-2.5)*3)+7.35 .
This will help remove voltage irregularities from the LM-1 unit & give you a more accurate reading. The only downfall to this method is whenever you upgrade Efilive you will need to redo the SAE.generic text file as it will be overwritten

Instead of changing the LM-1 pid you would change the LC-1 pid.

[smslyguy]

Is my wideband showing it is off?? or is this an accuracy check? Don't know why the wideband would be off all the sudden or unless it was pregramed wrong from the begining. It read acurrate and still seems accurate, just reads rich at idle, which may be rich? It was accurate in tunning before the cam and still appears to me to be accurate.

I guess i don't know why your thinking the w.b is off? sorry for all the questions just trying to find reasoning or logic in this. IS the voltage indicating it being off?

[5.7ute]

It is an accuracy check. Ground offsets can have a big influence on the scanned AFR values. This being the main reason why a lot of us go to serial connections.
I would like to see a log with IBPW1 or 2. GM.INJFLOW, GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA, GM.CYLAIR_DMA, desired airflow & the normal stuff like map,maf,ect,iat & RPM. Fuelling at idle is a complex system using desired air, maf & SD calculations biased to the maf (from what I have seen so far) since idle is classed as steady state.

[smslyguy]

thanks for the reply and the explanation. I will try to check that accuracy. As for the pids i will log a new scan using the pids as you described tomorrow, have to get up early.

[joecar]

Also, go into the LM Programmer software and make sure the LC-1 has the stoich AFR set for your fuel (e.g. 14.7).

[5.7ute]

thanks for the reply and the explanation. I will try to check that accuracy. As for the pids i will log a new scan using the pids as you described tomorrow, have to get up early.

No worries.
From calculating back with the log file we should be able to see what is causing your rich issues. Desired airflow will need an additional calculation to turn it into G/cyl to match DYNCYLAIR & CYLAIR but that is pretty straightforward. If there is enough channels left MANVAC & battery voltage could be logged as well. If not we may need a quick secondary log with voltage & manvac since this wont change much(To work out the injector offset)
At the end of the day it could just be a minimum pulsewidth limit being hit, but the narrowband voltage doesnt support this as it still swings lean (under 450mv). Unless of course the narrowbands are shot.
Anyone have any other thoughts?

[WeathermanShawn]

No.

My gut instinct was telling me it was wideband related..It did not even want to stay near stoich at cruise.

But tunes are complex. I appreciate you guys jumping in. I am glad I went serial connection on my wideband set-up. One less accuracy check to worry about.

Thanks again. OP, good luck. Maybe these guys can get you going.

Stick with it...

[5.7ute]

No.

My gut instinct was telling me it was wideband related..It did not even want to stay near stoich at cruise.



I agree. But it would take a 0.16v offset to cause that amount of error.(I have only seen around 0.03v)
FWIW I also believe that the (EXTADx*3)+7.35 expression is flawed. This would give a lambda/Eq of 1.0 sample a value of 14.7 in the scanner. Where commanded AFR at stoich is 14.63. Boy I am glad I went serial or this stuff would really do my head in.

[smslyguy]

It is an accuracy check. Ground offsets can have a big influence on the scanned AFR values. This being the main reason why a lot of us go to serial connections.
I would like to see a log with IBPW1 or 2. GM.INJFLOW, GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA, GM.CYLAIR_DMA, desired airflow & the normal stuff like map,maf,ect,iat & RPM. Fuelling at idle is a complex system using desired air, maf & SD calculations biased to the maf (from what I have seen so far) since idle is classed as steady state.

here is a scan of the ibpw let me know if you need other pids?>

[5.7ute]

Desired air appears too high by about 1 G/sec but IBPW is following your maf/VE calibration. Before you go any further you need to change the output in the lm programmer to a flatline a voltage on the other channel. You do this by setting 10 AFR to 2.5 volts, 20 AFR to 2.5 volts & log both channels. If the other channel does not log at 2.5 volts you have ground offset issues which need addressing. If you can post screenshots of your logworks software with both channels we can work from there.

[smslyguy]

Desired air appears too high by about 1 G/sec but IBPW is following your maf/VE calibration. Before you go any further you need to change the output in the lm programmer to a flatline a voltage on the other channel. You do this by setting 10 AFR to 2.5 volts, 20 AFR to 2.5 volts & log both channels. If the other channel does not log at 2.5 volts you have ground offset issues which need addressing. If you can post screenshots of your logworks software with both channels we can work from there.

HOw do you log both channels?

[5.7ute]

There will be three wires from the LC-1. Channel 1(Yellow), Channel 2(Brown) & earth(Green). You may need to look at your instructions for the LC-1 to ensure this is correct. On the V1 connect the yellow wire to E, Brown to C. Green to D.
Log both EXT.AD1 & EXT.AD2 after programming the LC-1 to a flatline voltage on the channel NOT set up for wideband AFR. The channel that is set up for wideband AFR will be
a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00

[smslyguy]

There will be three wires from the LC-1. Channel 1(Yellow), Channel 2(Brown) & earth(Green). You may need to look at your instructions for the LC-1 to ensure this is correct. On the V1 connect the yellow wire to E, Brown to C. Green to D.
Log both EXT.AD1 & EXT.AD2 after programming the LC-1 to a flatline voltage on the channel NOT set up for wideband AFR. The channel that is set up for wideband AFR will be
a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00

Here is a copy of the w.b scan with both channels. I does not appear to have any ground issues. Let me know what you think.

[5.7ute]

Only the usual 0.02/0.03v.

[smslyguy]

Only the usual 0.02/0.03v.

SO does this mean i can alter the sae_generic pids for the offset to get it spot on? Also my wideband is correct, right? So indeed my car is infact running rich at idle???

[5.7ute]

Yes, you could alter the generic txt file to remove the offset error. As for the wideband being correct, the only way you could test this is with calibrating gas.
I will try & get back later with a few ideas to try.

[smslyguy]

Just an update to a rich reading at idle. Turns out it wasn't reading "rich" after all. It was my cats with the cam i am running that was making it appear richer than it was. Removed the cats with the new exhaust i am running and the idle is spot on. 14.7.

[joecar]

Remind me where is your wideband located...?

Did you determine the rich reading from the WBO2 or the NBO2's.

Thanks for posting back :cheers:

[smslyguy]

Remind me where is your wideband located...?

Did you determine the rich reading from the WBO2 or the NBO2's.

Thanks for posting back :cheers:

It was located just after the cats, infact in the factory nbo2 after the cat spot. was determined from the w.b.