Help with understanding alignment of 4x cam and 58x crank reluctor wheels and sensor

[tunedportcj5]

Sooo, I am working on gathering information on how to run a 58x setup on a non-LS motor. I need a better understanding on how it triggers, how to set the alignment (orientation based on crank position) TDC? Will a CASE re-learn figure it out on its own?

How about the 4x CPS? how is that set in relation to the cam(s).

In this case, I am working with a DOHC I6 and will utilize the LL8 E67 ECM/OS.

Any help will be great!
Thanks,
David

[joecar]

Hi David,

I don't have a waveform showing the relationship between the 58x/4x signals... when I find one I'll post it here.

The CASE relearn will not sync them up, the CASE relearn merely configures the misfire detection algorithm.

[gmh308]

As Joe mentions, CASE learn wont do anything for you, it is simply to make misfire detection more accurate. Engine will normally run without it, and in a conversion an ECM generally wont CASE learn as it is missing signals like hand brake from the body.

If you are using an LL8 calibration, is your engine not an LL8 DOHC I6? Does it already have a 58X crank? Does it have VVT?

[ScarabEpic22]

Ian, he is trying to do an E67 swap using an LL8 OS on (I forget what engine, toyota?). David is trying to figure out where he needs to put the 58x crank and 4x cam reluctors so the ECM can properly control his non-GM engine.

[tunedportcj5]

I am weighing out my options for controlling Toyota's 2JZ for my SC300. I am trying to understand the proper orientation/index of each of the trigger/reluctor wheels. Should be a piece of cake once that is figured out. :)

As Erik mentioned, I plan to utilize the LL8 E67 OS - its a perfect match.

I have many, many... hours of turning with EFILive. The last thing is want is to deal with some crappy piggyback controller or spend 2K on a standalone. I'm spoiled. :)

I am not having any luck finding any info regarding the position of the trigger wheels. Everyone suggests... "buy this tool" to align it. I wish! :)

Thanks,
David

[gmh308]

I am not having any luck finding any info regarding the position of the trigger wheels. Everyone suggests... "buy this tool" to align it. I wish! :)

Thanks,
David

Have never seen anything published on this but I have looked at it on cranks when swapping reluctor wheels...just cant recall the relative positioning of the indexing to #1 TDC right now. Will take a look at a crank early next week. And yes the 4X cam gear phasing is quite critical for initial start up. I have some info somewhere on that...will just need to find it.

Is the 2JZ a VVT engine? If so will you run locked cams and simply get a cam reluctor machined up to run on one cam? Same for the crank? Custom wheel or do they already run a 58X/60 - 2 reluctor?

[ScarabEpic22]

Have never seen anything published on this but I have looked at it on cranks when swapping reluctor wheels...just cant recall the relative positioning of the indexing to #1 TDC right now. Will take a look at a crank early next week. And yes the 4X cam gear phasing is quite critical for initial start up. I have some info somewhere on that...will just need to find it.

Is the 2JZ a VVT engine? If so will you run locked cams and simply get a cam reluctor machined up to run on one cam? Same for the crank? Custom wheel or do they already run a 58X/60 - 2 reluctor?

If the 2JZ runs exhaust VVT and the sensor can be modified, the E67 can control it (the LL8 has exhaust VVT).

I really think this is going to be a sweet swap once you get it done!

[tunedportcj5]

Only the newer 2JZs have VVT - not mine. I have recently found a lot of information regarding Supra owners running stand-alone systems and upgrading to a 60-2 reluctor. I feel confident I have the reluctor/crank sensor figured out.... except for the reluctor orientation. There are guides on alignment but how do I dertermine if it will work for a GM setup?

As far as the cam sensor goes.. Since I have a 2JZGE (non factory turbo) - it uses a distributor. I am thinking I can source a custom 4x reluctor from eficonnection and fab up a cap/sensor mount....?

Thoughts?

Also... its tough sourcing a e67 LL8 engine harness... can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks!
David

[gmh308]

The GM 58X reluctor commences the indexing notch at 30 deg ATDC on #1 cylinder. You could call GMPP and check with them too. Or confirm with EFI Connection if you are buying a 4X dist reluctor from them.

[ScarabEpic22]

For an E67 LL8 harness, you're probably going to have to buy a complete harness off a wrecked truck. The E67s were only used for the last 2 years of production so there arent a lot of wrecked ones yet.

Ian hopefully has you pointed in the right direction, I honestly do not know about the crank/cam reluctor orientation.

[killalux]

Hey,
Did you ever get this sorted? I am wanting to do the same thing. I assume you are using a drive by wire throttle aswell.

Any info you can share would be greatly appreciated

Steve

[copo-rat]

Also... its tough sourcing a e67 LL8 engine harness... can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks!
David

VERY tough! I'm having no luck at all with sourcing the same thing! Please share any info if/when you get some. I'll do the same.

[ScarabEpic22]

Just in case anyone has a line on LL8 harnesses, Im looking for an 06/07 P12 PCM engine harness. Doesnt have to be intact, I just need the 3 PCM connectors with a foot of wiring.

[joecar]

Does anyone have any waveforms for 58x/4x yet...?

[copo-rat]

I recently found this.....I personally wasn't wanting to spend this much on a harness (although I know it's not expensive relatively speaking)........but i figured I would post it here in case someone else was interested.

http://www.gm-auto-parts.com/seccat/trailblazer-692/2008/engine-harness-33228/3/33228/

[tunedportcj5]

I gave up on a LL8 harness a long time ago. Impossible to find, and if you find one - they are not worth the price. I ended up with a '08 Silverado E38 harness. AWESOME source for all (and much more) of all of the connectors you need. You just have to re-pin it all for an E67 setup. EFIConnection has been a great source of parts at a very reasonable price. You can re-use one of the E38 ECU connectors - I purchased the other 2 from EFI. If you are reading this thread, you probably have the patience and understanding on how to re-pin the harness.

[ScarabEpic22]

Good to know, and I know what you mean. Ive been looking for a P12 harness for an LL8 (or even an I4/I5) for the PCM side connectors. Costs an arm and a leg, but building one from scratch to use as a patch harness would be ~$200 and make what Im trying to do not feasible.

Glad you got it sorted out, probably have to deal with the exhaust VVT on a stock LL8 (but for your swap it doesnt matter).

[tunedportcj5]

Glad you got it sorted out, probably have to deal with the exhaust VVT on a stock LL8 (but for your swap it doesnt matter).

Erik, you have mentioned the VVT issues before and I have kind of ignored it because I obviously wont need it... however, will this cause some tuning issues? I was assuming I could zero out or staticly set the tables. Thoughts?

Thanks!

[ScarabEpic22]

Im pretty sure you can just go through and 0 the tables out and turn the DTCs off, my hope is the OS wont freak out when it doesnt get any feedback from the cam position sensor (hopefully killing the DTCs will avoid that). Id have to look again, but I think thats the only issue...

[copo-rat]

tunedportcj5,
Do you happen to have any pics of your process? Crank reluctor and mounting etc?
Thanks,
JP

[tunedportcj5]

Im pretty sure you can just go through and 0 the tables out and turn the DTCs off, my hope is the OS wont freak out when it doesnt get any feedback from the cam position sensor (hopefully killing the DTCs will avoid that). Id have to look again, but I think thats the only issue...

Thanks Erik... we'll find out sooner than later :)

[tunedportcj5]

JP, I guess I need to get a few pics up... I have been hesitant because its a trial and error thing and didnt want to represent any false info.

[ScarabEpic22]

Let me know if you need a hand with the tune, I havent played with an E67 based I6 but Ive looked through the tune a few times.

[tunedportcj5]

Let me know if you need a hand with the tune, I havent played with an E67 based I6 but Ive looked through the tune a few times.

Thanks Erik, I appreciate it. I have not spent any time with the tune yet - its going to be a fun one since there is not really any kind of base-tune to start with. However, it will probably be much easier than dialing in a 240/240 .650 cam...lol But again, I dont have too much experience with the E67 and the virtual VE. I've got a million hours tuning the 0411s though. :)

[tunedportcj5]

Coil pack arrangement
10169
Side shot of distributor/cam signal. This is the OEM distributor housing with custom 4x wheel and vortec cam sensor. Not very elegant but I did not want to spend a ton of time and money on the first version without knowing for sure all of this is going to work. Once everything is confirmed and I know this project will be a sucess. I'll probably build something a bit more low profile or just buy a EFIConnection wheel and retrofit a vortec distributor base to the toyota shaft.
10170
Another side/rear shot...
10171
6" 60-2 electromotive trigger wheel. I'm not really excited about an external mounted trigger but it sure makes it easy to modify to get everything dialed in. Again, once everything is working and dialed-in, I'll revisit and install a Supra oil-pump housing which is setup for a crank sensor. 60-2 wheels are available for that configuration. Its just sitting on the crank bolt in this pic - its not mounted.
10172
Custom sheet metal intake and 90mm TB. I should have it all welded out this weekend, its just roughed-in for fitment in that pic.
10173

The following is already pinned/wired:
-ETC
-Cam Sensor
-Knock sensors
-Injectors
-Coils
-ECT
-MAP
-MAF/IAT

Remaining:
-Crank sensor
-T42 / GMLan
-Grounds
-All Battery/Ignition leads
-NBO2s

Question regarding MAP configuration... For the time being, I am using the stock LSx MAP. I'll eventually run a 3-bar MAP. I think I'd like to remote mount the MAP instead of directly on the intake. I'd prefer to use a barbed NPT fitting and run a hose to the MAP. Anyone see any concerns with this? I know that has been the standard on many vehicles for many years in the past.

Thanks!
David

[tunedportcj5]

Besides a full time 55-60hr/wk job, 7-month preggo wife, and a 2-1/2 year old. This project has been consuming most of my time. Thought I'd share....(Hey, it has LS3 with an E38 - it fits the forum) :hihi:

Tubed front and rear chassis, full 10pt cage, 4-linked, coilovers
10174
Dana 60 front, full hydro steering, 14bolt rear, 5.38s
10175
16" Fox coliovers at all 4 corners
10176
GMPP LS3 w/hotcam, TH400, Yank 2800, Atlas3.8
10177
Griffin cooling... just wanted to show off the sweet mounting setup :grin:
10178

Enjoy!

[joecar]

Cool project :cheers:

[copo-rat]

JP, I guess I need to get a few pics up... I have been hesitant because its a trial and error thing and didnt want to represent any false info.

Thanks for the pics! Looking good, makes me want to start moving forward with my project. So you went with the EfiConnection 4x cam reluctor wheel and an electromotive 58x crank wheel? I wish I could PM so I could ask you what you paid for the 4x cam wheel. Did they send the info with it that describes how it is oriented with the crank wheel? I asked them about it and they wouldn't give me much info and told me they didn't have time to answer any more questions I may have about my project. I'm thinking about adapting their 4x cam wheel to the distributor in my 250ci Inline six chevy. I don't want to drop $575 for the two wheels from them though.
How did you determine the diameter of your 58x wheel? Was that determined by packaging and nothing else?
I am planning the exact same build as you except I'm using an old 250ci chevy inline six and a Buick GN turbo..........with the electronics from an '08+ Trailblazer. Any sources for parts that you'd like to share I'd be grateful!
Thanks,
JP

[tunedportcj5]

I fabbed up the 4x wheel myself and bought the 6" elecromotive wheel off eBay. I dont have the exact details on the crank/cam orientation - but I have a good idea... I'll know more info this weekend and i'll be happy to share. Diameter of the wheel(s) doesnt matter... 6" or 6'... :)

[schwoch1]

I am also pursuing the same computer swap, but on a little different engine, an air cooled Corvair flat six engine. I am in the same boat as you all are, I don't know what the cam/crank relationship is at this time also. I put a graphing scan tool on a customers '08 Trailblazer, but without a #1 cylinder reference, I am partially still in the dark, I know where the cam and crank sensors come into play with each other, but do not know where TDC is, need someone with a 4 trace lab scope.... anyone in the SE Wisconsin area who owns one???? When I can find the pics of the graphing scan tool that I have (my Imac died, have to retrieve pics from backup, damn hard drive!!!), I will post. I am also asking the same on the IATN forum if anyone has a good pic of the relationship, there are some real lab scope guru's there and hopefully someone pipes in and comes up with a pic!! I will keep all posted if I get anything!!!

Mike

[copo-rat]

I fabbed up the 4x wheel myself and bought the 6" elecromotive wheel off eBay. I dont have the exact details on the crank/cam orientation - but I have a good idea... I'll know more info this weekend and i'll be happy to share. Diameter of the wheel(s) doesnt matter... 6" or 6'... :)

Okay, without sounding too stupid, I have to ask.......if the cam is turning half the speed of the crank, don't you have to keep the same relationship between crank reluctor and cam reluctor? I understand that the diameter of the crank wheel doesn't matter, but doesn't the cam wheel have to be a certain size determined by the crank wheel? Wouldn't it have to be twice the size of the crank wheel unless you were using something that was gear driven like the EFIConnection wheel that is retrofitted into the distributor? Probably a real simple answer that I'm overlooking and as soon as someone says it then it'll hit me, but I had to ask. I'm afraid to start buying parts not knowing if this set-up will work, but with two other people on this forum alone having the same idea, that gives me hope. I have ZERO tuning experience, but figured if I could figure out all the packaging (at least if it's possible) and get it together, then I'd find someone to tune it for me! :mrgreen:

[joecar]

The cam/crank sprockets have to maintain the 2:1 relationship.

The reluctor wheels can be any diameter since they are fixed relative to their respective shaft (cam or crank)...

i.e. a sensor will see the same reluctor pulses regardless of reluctor diameter.

[copo-rat]

Makes sense, I just needed someone to say it so I could hear it and process it. Thanks for clearing that up for me joecar.

[tunedportcj5]

Whelp, I have a crank signal. Its reading ~250rpm during cranking. Making some progress... However I have no spark or injector pulse. I ran out of time this evening to continue troubleshooting. I need to double check my cam sensor wiring. I havent done much with the tune - i've only applied the VATS patch and changed a few other tables.

Are there any PIDs that monitor the cam sensor? Any other suggestions for testing the sensor...etc? I may have some wires crossed - i'll verify tomorrow.

I am not concerned about timing at this point, I am just looking for some spark and injector pulses :)

Thanks!
David

[doubledip]

There is Cam Hi to Lo and Cam Lo to Hi counts

[nevinsb]

Hope you get this thing going! There's a lot of good information here.

[Highlander]

mike@eficonnection.com could help you out on that.

[schwoch1]

mike@eficonnection.com could help you out on that.

Well, I hate to talk bad about Mike, but he did not know what the relationship was when I last asked him......
After a small amount of digging, it looks is if the missing notch is 14 teeth away from he crank sensor, now if I could figure out the cam that would help out 1000%!!!

Mike

[Highlander]

Well... did you buy a kit from him? I am sure I remember he told me some of the specs when we were building my ls1/lt1 kit... but then again, I bought almost $4k in stuff from him. And I still do.

He does the 58x conversion to lt1s and sbc, so I am sure he figured it out.. but... it's something that took him a LOT of $ for him to give out free.... He is extremely knowledgeable and he builds harnesses that maybe gm has that level of quality.

[ScarabEpic22]

I havent seen EFIConnection do anything with the LL8s, not sure how much Mike has played with them (if at all).

[schwoch1]

Well... did you buy a kit from him? I am sure I remember he told me some of the specs when we were building my ls1/lt1 kit... but then again, I bought almost $4k in stuff from him. And I still do.

He does the 58x conversion to lt1s and sbc, so I am sure he figured it out.. but... it's something that took him a LOT of $ for him to give out free.... He is extremely knowledgeable and he builds harnesses that maybe gm has that level of quality.

Actually, I had the first running LT1 that used his 24X kit, other than his test motors, so I guess I can also say that I have bought from him and still am also!! I have bought several harnesses from EFI Connection so I am aware of the quality that he sends out the door, second to none in my opinion!!!
As far as the $$$ outlay for R&D, trust me I know what it costs, my head isn't buried in the sand there, nothings free!!! I was not expecting anyone to give out info for free, never said I wanted it, never expected it. As I posted earlier, when I asked Mike, he said that he was not really 100% sure as it was a lot of trial and error to get a 58X system up and running. He was able to give me a picture of a big block with the 58 pulse reluctor wheel, so I was able to deduce how many teeth past the 2 missing the crank sensor is, that was the easy part!!! Finding out where the cam is is a different story, just finishing up another project so I can devote all my time to the Corvair motor, then I guess it will be trial and error for me also!!!
I just wanted to make it clear that I was not mutherfuckin anybody cause they wouldn't give out info..... that was not the intent of my post!!!!

Mike

[schwoch1]

I havent seen EFIConnection do anything with the LL8s, not sure how much Mike has played with them (if at all).

The LL8 uses the same cam/crank relationship as all the 58X LS style motors do....so the info is the same as the V8's!!!

Mike

[joecar]

If only someone with a high resolution (deep buffer) scope could take a 58x/4x waveform...

[schwoch1]

If only someone with a high resolution (deep buffer) scope could take a 58x/4x waveform...
There is a guy near me that has a Pico 4 channel lab scope, that absolutely loves using it that I am going to try and contact and see if he could do that for me. Problem is, I do not own any 58X GM cars... my daily beaters are both Subaru's, and knowing their cam/crank relationship ain't going to do me/us any good!!! I was able to get a picture from an old fluke 98 graphing multimeter, but I am not sure that it will do any good either!!! Once I figure out how to post the pics, I will do so!!!
Again, I am trying to make this happen, gotten plenty of responses on the IATN web board for the 24X patterns, but no 58X yet.... the search goes on!!!
Hope these help, they are not the best....

Mike
1024710248
Mike

[joecar]

I'll check at Autonerdz.

[tunedportcj5]

Well, I hate to talk bad about Mike, but he did not know what the relationship was when I last asked him......
After a small amount of digging, it looks is if the missing notch is 14 teeth away from he crank sensor, now if I could figure out the cam that would help out 1000%!!!

Mike

I know for a fact that the LS3 sitting in my shop is -14 teeth from the notch. I've verified visually using a dial caliper to find TDC and counting the teeth until I rotate back to find the notch. Nothing scientific - GM already did that work :) Now, I would LOVE to assume thats the case for the LL8 I6 and it uses the same decoding.

[tunedportcj5]

The LL8 uses the same cam/crank relationship as all the 58X LS style motors do....so the info is the same as the V8's!!!

Mike

My fingers are crossed that this is true...

[tunedportcj5]

Actually, I had the first running LT1 that used his 24X kit, other than his test motors, so I guess I can also say that I have bought from him and still am also!! I have bought several harnesses from EFI Connection so I am aware of the quality that he sends out the door, second to none in my opinion!!!
As far as the $$$ outlay for R&D, trust me I know what it costs, my head isn't buried in the sand there, nothings free!!! I was not expecting anyone to give out info for free, never said I wanted it, never expected it. As I posted earlier, when I asked Mike, he said that he was not really 100% sure as it was a lot of trial and error to get a 58X system up and running. He was able to give me a picture of a big block with the 58 pulse reluctor wheel, so I was able to deduce how many teeth past the 2 missing the crank sensor is, that was the easy part!!! Finding out where the cam is is a different story, just finishing up another project so I can devote all my time to the Corvair motor, then I guess it will be trial and error for me also!!!
I just wanted to make it clear that I was not mutherfuckin anybody cause they wouldn't give out info..... that was not the intent of my post!!!!

Mike

Well said... If EFI Mike wanted to chime in, he probably would have by now. He has too much time and money in R&D just to give it away and I completely respect that. His innovative ideas have led us to think outside the box - basically, this thread would not exist if it was not for that. Thank-you Mike!

[tunedportcj5]

Update: I have spark!! Cam sensor wires A and C were crossed. Still no injector signal....possibly VATS but I ran out of time again tonight. DVT injector diags pass.

Another odd issue I noticed is that my APP/ETC is no longer working after the LL8 OS flash. It previously worked on the original 12617449 OS / 12617448 CAL (not sure of the vehicle). Any ideas?

[ScarabEpic22]

The pedal has to be from a factory LL8 truck, I have heard that with different OSs the ETC tables/outputs are different. If they dont match up, then the ETC wont work. I believe some go from 0-5v low to high and some are 0-5v high to low.

[schwoch1]

Another odd issue I noticed is that my APP/ETC is no longer working after the LL8 OS flash. It previously worked on the original 12617449 OS / 12617448 CAL (not sure of the vehicle). Any ideas?

I ran into the same problem while bench testing the throttle to make sure that it worked with a non LL8 (actually a 2.4 ecotec) throttle body. What I found is that TPS 1&2 voltages have to be within 2% of each other, IE damn near the same. The wiring diagram that I had from alldata was wrong and I had to switch around the signal return and the TPS 2 output around to reverse the TPS 2 voltage, I think..... I will have to look at my mockup when I get home. The way the factory wiring diagram was wired, TPS 2 started at 4.5 volts or so and worked its way down to 1 volt, and the computer is expecting the exact opposite, hence the trouble code and no throttle operation. Again, I will double check my wiring on my APP when I get home and make sure of what I did!!!

Mike

[schwoch1]

Well said... If EFI Mike wanted to chime in, he probably would have by now. He has too much time and money in R&D just to give it away and I completely respect that. His innovative ideas have led us to think outside the box - basically, this thread would not exist if it was not for that. Thank-you Mike!

True.....very true....!!! Without his innovative setup I would still be swearing at the Optispark in my '71 GMC truck..... After I had to walk...... TWICE..... I had to come up with something better!!!!

Mike

[tunedportcj5]

I ran into the same problem while bench testing the throttle to make sure that it worked with a non LL8 (actually a 2.4 ecotec) throttle body. What I found is that TPS 1&2 voltages have to be within 2% of each other, IE damn near the same. The wiring diagram that I had from alldata was wrong and I had to switch around the signal return and the TPS 2 output around to reverse the TPS 2 voltage, I think..... I will have to look at my mockup when I get home. The way the factory wiring diagram was wired, TPS 2 started at 4.5 volts or so and worked its way down to 1 volt, and the computer is expecting the exact opposite, hence the trouble code and no throttle operation. Again, I will double check my wiring on my APP when I get home and make sure of what I did!!!

Mike

Cool, please let me know and I'll check my config... Thanks!!

[schwoch1]

Cool, please let me know and I'll check my config... Thanks!!
I checked my setup, and I have it wired per the V8 APPS diagram that Alldata shows and it works fine, basically switch pin A and C around and it should work fine. Pin A is VREF and Pin C is low ref on the V8 diagram and the exact opposite on the I6 diagram. Don't know why it is wrong on Alldata, but I have been using them for the last 17 years and I have found out that sometimes Alldata should be called 'somedata' sometimes!!!
Hope this helps!!!

Mike

[tunedportcj5]

I checked my setup, and I have it wired per the V8 APPS diagram that Alldata shows and it works fine, basically switch pin A and C around and it should work fine. Pin A is VREF and Pin C is low ref on the V8 diagram and the exact opposite on the I6 diagram. Don't know why it is wrong on Alldata, but I have been using them for the last 17 years and I have found out that sometimes Alldata should be called 'somedata' sometimes!!!
Hope this helps!!!

Mike

Unfortunately that did not work. I had already tried that too - my pinouts show both LL8 and LS2 with those different pin assignments. It worked fine before the LL8 flash. I might revert back just to confirm nothing else could be causing the problem. With ignition switched on, the ETC does it safety/calibration test (you hear the high frequency pitch also) but no response from the APP.

[schwoch1]

Unfortunately that did not work. I had already tried that too - my pinouts show both LL8 and LS2 with those different pin assignments. It worked fine before the LL8 flash. I might revert back just to confirm nothing else could be causing the problem. With ignition switched on, the ETC does it safety/calibration test (you hear the high frequency pitch also) but no response from the APP.

Did you clear the codes in the PCM??? Oh, I know what happened.... EFI Live will not flash the throttle portion of the PCM, you have to take it to someone with a Tech 2 or some sort of J2534 flash device and have them flash it. You can change the ETC tables, but you cannot flash a new cal into a a E38 or E67 PCM and have the electronic throttle work. Sucks, but I assume they do that for safety concerns!!! If you need it flashed, I will do it for $65 w/shipping back to you.
Hope this helps!
Mike

Mike

[joecar]

I checked my setup, and I have it wired per the V8 APPS diagram that Alldata shows and it works fine, basically switch pin A and C around and it should work fine. Pin A is VREF and Pin C is low ref on the V8 diagram and the exact opposite on the I6 diagram. Don't know why it is wrong on Alldata, but I have been using them for the last 17 years and I have found out that sometimes Alldata should be called 'somedata' sometimes!!!
Hope this helps!!!

MikeWhat year/model/vehicle in AllData...? I'll look in the GM Service Manual when I get a moment.

[tunedportcj5]

She fires up! Just for a second... :grin: seems like VATS is holding it back - you have your 1-2 run time, then stops. Although no codes or anything that indicates VATS. I've tried both type-2 and type-3 modes along with the patch. Anything else to check?

Good news is the startup is very strong and healthy sounding, no stumbles and backfires!

Still no ETC... :bad:

I'm still working with a barely modified tune (tuned for the 4.2 - not the 3.0). I guess I should start scaling the injectors and VVE.

Anyone want to help me work on a base tune? :grin: I have a rather large learning curve on the non 0411 ECMs. VVE seems intimidating...

-David

[schwoch1]

What year/model/vehicle in AllData...? I'll look in the GM Service Manual when I get a moment.

2008 Chevrolet Trailblazer, 4.2 I6... Keep us posted!!

Mike

[ScarabEpic22]

What about G1208, probably should be set to Disabled. And shouldnt you leave G1213 set to Yes? Or are you not wiring a clutch input to the ECM?

Can you post the bone stock file, I think the VATS needs to be set closer to stock params.

[copo-rat]

That's awesome. Some serious progress in the past couple days! Glad to hear, sorry I can't offer any help. I'm tagging along for the learning experience! Great job David.

[ScarabEpic22]

Also I was playing around with upgrading my TBSS OS to the EFILive Ethanol Custom OS and guess what, the LL8 shares the SAME OS!! So that means just like the V8s the I6 can now be setup to have a completely separate fuel IFR, spark tables, etc!

[tunedportcj5]

Also I was playing around with upgrading my TBSS OS to the EFILive Ethanol Custom OS and guess what, the LL8 shares the SAME OS!! So that means just like the V8s the I6 can now be setup to have a completely separate fuel IFR, spark tables, etc!

Besides the personal satisfaction "because I can" - this is another contributing factor why I am doing this! Very cool :)

[tunedportcj5]

Did you clear the codes in the PCM??? Oh, I know what happened.... EFI Live will not flash the throttle portion of the PCM, you have to take it to someone with a Tech 2 or some sort of J2534 flash device and have them flash it. You can change the ETC tables, but you cannot flash a new cal into a a E38 or E67 PCM and have the electronic throttle work. Sucks, but I assume they do that for safety concerns!!! If you need it flashed, I will do it for $65 w/shipping back to you.
Hope this helps!
Mike

Mike

Booo!! lol... not the answer I was looking for. If I can't get it figured out in the next couple of days - I'll take you up on your offer... thanks!

[tunedportcj5]

What about G1208, probably should be set to Disabled. And shouldnt you leave G1213 set to Yes? Or are you not wiring a clutch input to the ECM?

Can you post the bone stock file, I think the VATS needs to be set closer to stock params.

Your guess is as good as mine - I'll try those settings on my next go around... The stock file is the same one that's floating around here - if you cant find it, i'll send it to you when I get home. Thanks!

[tunedportcj5]

Nothing major to report at this time. Working some MAP/MAF correlation DTCs. I have a feeling it may be related to my ETC issues. Still no pedal response.

She still fires right up, sounds very strong for about 2 seconds and then kinda limps along on 1-2 cyls and then dies. I think its stupid rich right now. Injectors are not dead on, but they are pretty close for the scaling. Cyl volume has been adjusted to .5 but the VE tables have not been touched.

I'm still running on an engine stand without O2s and MAF so thats probably not helping... :)

MAP readings seem to be pretty high.. I'm seeing ~85kpa @ 1500rpm - 102kpa key off (I'm at sea level). Thoughts on that?

Thanks all!

-David

[schwoch1]

. I have a feeling it may be related to my ETC issues. Still no pedal response.
-David

Did your PCM come out of a LL8 Trailblazer initially? If not, it needs a full reflash with a Tech2 or J2534 compliant reflash device to get the ETC tables to work.... I will bet money on it.... Been there, done that. Even with Map/Maf corolation (sp) codes, the ETC should still work upon initial fire up!!! Refer to this post and it will explain what I am saying http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16050-p-1631-code&p=141633&viewfull=1#post141633 look at post#5. That should clear up any confusion!!
Hope this helps!!!
Mike

[tunedportcj5]

Did your PCM come out of a LL8 Trailblazer initially? If not, it needs a full reflash with a Tech2 or J2534 compliant reflash device to get the ETC tables to work.... I will bet money on it.... Been there, done that. Even with Map/Maf corolation (sp) codes, the ETC should still work upon initial fire up!!! Refer to this post and it will explain what I am saying http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16050-p-1631-code&p=141633&viewfull=1#post141633 look at post#5. That should clear up any confusion!!
Hope this helps!!!
Mike

Thanks for the info - I'm pretty convinced that's my problem. If I roll back to the original OS - the APP/ETC works again. Is there anything in addition to having the GM base tune written? Do i need to match up a certain pedal? Or will my current one work...?

Thanks!
David

[ScarabEpic22]

Ive been told that only LL8 pedals work with the LL8 OS, but I could be wrong. Dont know about the I4/I5 pedals, they might work.

[schwoch1]

You just need to have the PCM flashed with the LL8 calibration with a Tech 2 or someone with a J2534 Compliant flash device. I flashed mine with our software and pulled the cal out of it and modified that one!
Just go on ebay and grab a VIN for the car that has the right motor and have someone flash it to that VIN, they just have to have an off board programming harness, or just make your own.

I tried using a gas pedal out of a HHR and it did not work, APPS2 had some wierd voltage curve going on, not even close to what the LL8 cal was expecting. You could tie the APPS 1 and 2 wires together and it would have the same voltage to PCM, but you would lose the failsafe feature that GM designed in. I used the Trailblazer gas pedal, wired it as a V8 and have had no problems with my test bench!!

Mike

[copo-rat]

Any new progress David?

[copo-rat]

VERY tough! I'm having no luck at all with sourcing the same thing! Please share any info if/when you get some. I'll do the same.

It may not be relevant at this point, but I did manage to find affordable engine harnesses on car-part.com! I bought an '08 engine harness for $150

http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

[ScarabEpic22]

Good call, looks like there are some 06-07 I6 harnesses that might fit the bill of what Im trying to do. Have to wait until June after I start work!

[gmh308]

MAP readings seem to be pretty high.. I'm seeing ~85kpa @ 1500rpm - 102kpa key off (I'm at sea level). Thoughts on that?

Thanks all!

-David

102kpa is pretty normal for a nice day at sea level. :)

[gmh308]

It may not be relevant at this point, but I did manage to find affordable engine harnesses on car-part.com! I bought an '08 engine harness for $150

http://www.car-part.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi

An 08 what?

[S10Wildside]

Well said... If EFI Mike wanted to chime in, he probably would have by now. He has too much time and money in R&D just to give it away and I completely respect that. His innovative ideas have led us to think outside the box - basically, this thread would not exist if it was not for that. Thank-you Mike!

Sorry guys, I didn't know this thread existed. I don't have much time lately to look in the forums.

Revealing R&D information is unrelated to buying $4K worth of parts, but it is related to purchasing something that requires it. A PicoScope was purchased intentionally to play with the various waveforms. It would be silly of someone to suggest that R&D information has little value when thousands of dollars are spent on engine(s), laptop, scope, EFILive, time spent with R&D, and so on....but there are those occasional phone calls and email that put no value on this sort of information.

I'll avoid a tangent about all of the costs associated with CNC'd parts, the relatively small market, and the complaints related to pricing. What many don't seem to get is that they are receiving so much more than what they paid for. Okay, I'm done.

Related to the 58x stuff and cam signal, this is what I wrote in the installation guide:



The Gen IV LS engines have a fixed cam signal with no adjustments, but the EFI Connection 4x distributor assembly allows 360 degrees of adjustment. We have found that the best orientation is as shown while number 1 piston is up.

The engine will start and run with improper cam signal alignment in relation to crank signal. When the signal is in the incorrect position, several things may occur…
• The ECM sets a P0016 DTC that indicates the improper crank/cam correlation.
• Extended cranking until the engine starts (ECM assumes improper stroke).
• Backfire during cranking (ECM assumes improper stroke).

Because GM provides no information regarding proper alignment, our recommendation is to roughly set the cam signal as mentioned above and then monitor for P0016 and poor starts. Adjust the cam signal until P0016 does not set and the engine starts without backfire or extended cranking.

My to-do list includes grabbing a scope trace of crank/cam relationship from a Gen IV engine. Haven't done that yet. It hasn't been necessary for SBC/BBC installations, but I want to include it in the installation guide.

I've been successful in convincing nearly all 58x inquiries to go the 24x route. Most peope are not DIYers and don't have the skillset or equipment necessary to perform a successful and reliable 58x conversion. Much of this is related to crank/cam orientation, the price of parts, and the learning curve of the Gen IV ECMs.

Everyone contributing to this thread is capable of a 58x conversion...there are not many out there like you.

[S10Wildside]

It's been awhile since the 4x cam reluctor R&D, but I do recall the signal being a little fussy when Bill cut the teeth on the Bridgeport. The first prototype had uneven pulse width, but the ECM didn't mind. The second prototype looked better, but the ECM had issues with it. I think it threw a DTC we couldn't avoid.

Here's a little insider info...for the sake of showing you how accurate EFI Connection's 4x cam reluctor is. This is how we got it right.

http://www.eficonnection.com/temp/4xCamDevelopment.jpg

And after we got it right, the bottom side was milled for balance to evenly distribute the rotating weight.

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/images/4x_Cam_Reluctor_300w.jpg

[copo-rat]

An 08 what?

Sorry about that, an '08 Trailblazer (I6) engine harness. We were talking earlier in the thread about how hard they were to find.

[NateP]

Amazing work!!!

Any update on this?

Did you end up using the 14 tooth count for the crank? Ever figure out the cam?

Thanks

[schwoch1]

My project hit a standstill as summer approached, darn wife scheduled 99% of my free time away with family events, vacation, etc....
If I Had more info at this point, I would talk... but at this point.... I have nothing!!!

Mike

[tunedportcj5]

Well, sorry guys but I kinda put this project on the back burner. Sorry to disappoint. I got to a point to where I had to drop a lot of coin to just bolt up the 4l80e and there still were too many unknowns.

On a good note, its still going to be a sick one-of-a-kind ride with a turbo 4.8 in there. It will be running in a couple of weeks. I drove it with the N/A 4.8 and it was a PIG with the 4L80e. Some FI will certainly push it down the road a little quicker.

[schwoch1]

I drove it with the N/A 4.8 and it was a PIG with the 4L80e. Some FI will certainly push it down the road a little quicker.

Amazing what the 3.06 first gear of the 4L60E can do for acceleration......... SUre beats the 4L80E's 2.48 first 'specially with a small motor!!!

Mike

[Highlander]

Did this ever got finished????

[schwoch1]

Mine still is on the back burner unfortunately :( I am still going to use the E67 system, just have several other projects ahead of it for now. Seems the older I get, the less ambition I have unfortunately!

I still lurk on this thread from time to time so see if there is any headway..... If for some reason I come up with something I will keep all posted

Mike