Do not connect FlashScan between a vehicle and a laptop powered by a power inverter

[badassmax]

Hi, i don't know if my question is being asked in the proper place???
It's about that orange notice i received with my new flashscan v2: it says :do not connect flashscan between a vehicle and a personal computer or a laptop if that computer is being powered from the vehicle's 12 volt system through a power inverter.Doing so will almost certainly damage your flashscan device and possibly your laptop/computer.

My question is: What are my option to power my laptop? Is my DC/DC laptop charger connected to the vehicle's 12 volt system a proper way to keep my laptop alive?

I dont want to screw up any of my devices, i realy want to know what i'm doing before i make any mistakes!
Thanks folks!

[Taz]

I run my Notebook computer strictly on its own internal battery power. I purchased an extended battery for my Notebook, and now get about 6 to 8 hours use (versus 2 to 3 hours use with the original battery).

An extended battery is a good investment if you plan using your Notebook to log / tune on a frequent basis.


Regards,
Taz

[joecar]

With an inverter powering the laptop, there are two ground paths:
vehicle->inverter->laptop->V2
vehicle->V2

it can be guaranteed that there will be a voltage difference between the two ground paths, this causes current to flow around the loop formed by these two ground paths; current flowing in this loop is very large (because there is very little resistance on each ground path); this large current causes two things: creates large voltage offsets and finds the shortest/easiest path (most certainly thru any semiconductor circuit, such as is found in V2).

So the safe thing to do is this:
- fully charge your laptop battery from inverter (or other source);
- remove inverter and fully charge vehicle battery;
- connect laptop/V2 to vehicle (with inverter absent).

The same situation applies when charging the vehicle battery using a charger powered from a wall outlet: do not power the laptop from a wall outlet.

The key point is: laptop has to be powered from an isolated source, it's internal battery is appropriate.

[badassmax]

Thanks Joecar, your explanation is very good! So good, in fact, that it makes me think about finding myself a way to eliminate the problem... Here is my first plan:Hardwire the ground wire coming into my laptop to the one at the OBD2 data connector to protect FlashScan and my laptop (14 gauge wire). That way, in my opinion, the worse thing that can happen is my laptop charger getting fried:shock:

Is that sounds like a good plan to you Joecar?

Just to let everybody know: If the way i put words together sounds funny, it's 'cause i'm french and by no mean an ace with english language:grin:So if you can't understand what i'm writing: Dont be affraid to ask for clarification! Thanks folks:good:

[joecar]

If you wire the laptop ground to the OBD2 port ground then your laptop charger may become unhappy and possibly fry itself.

Edit: Oh, I see that this is what you said; I was reading too quickly :doh2:

[ChipsByAl]

That way, in my opinion, the worse thing that can happen is my laptop charger getting fried
I think a new battery would be a better option!

[badassmax]

My battery is fairly new, but i don't get lots of time out of it...

[Wolfie]

You could check this out...
http://www.circuitsathome.com/products-page/usb-interfaces/

Cost is $48.00 and & $2.00 shipping to the states.

It sounds like it would do the trick.
I have my laptop tied to a 2500watt inverter, and fried EFILive once.
Have had it hooked up again the same way for the past year or so (about 150,000 miles) with no problems,
but am now looking at this device as I can not keep a laptop battery running because I leave my computer
on for days on end.

* I will let you know how it works.

[rcr1978]

I thought that all you had to do is make sure that there was no floating voltage on the the grounds between your vehicle and laptop. If there is none your good to go, I've been using a IGO for years with no trouble.

[Wolfie]

I personally have my laptop, usb buss, EFILive box, and my serial converters grounded.
Maybe that's why I lasted this time around.

[GAMEOVER]

I've been running my laptop with a radioshack inverter for 2.5 years now and I've never had any problems...whatsoever! Not just on my vehicles but on all other vehicles I work with...I think I've been lucky...:D
Or I got a well built Flashscan V2...:D

[m58mw]

how about using a 12v charger plugged into a jumpstart pack? won't that work as a huge battery?

[badassmax]

I checked my chinese DC/DC laptop charger for ground connection with an ohmmeter: Found no resistance from ground in to ground out. I still had doubts, so i opened the sealed unit to see how it was wired inside: I found a circuit board with thick solder track from input ground to output ground, so no possibility for any problem there!

I believe the only remaining possibility for problems here are the ground connections to the vehicle( correct me if i'm wrong).

What about a big diode on the positive side of the charger going to laptop?

[rcr1978]

I'm not 100% but I thought the only problems are when you are using a 12vdc to 110vac power inverter most of those had floating voltages between the grounds. You would think a standard 12vdc to 12-18vdc ones would be ok, I always just make sure the grounds are good and theres no voltage fluctuation.

[bobo]

I'm not 100% but I thought the only problems are when you are using a 12vdc to 110vac power inverter most of those had floating voltages between the grounds. You would think a standard 12vdc to 12-18vdc ones would be ok, I always just make sure the grounds are good and theres no voltage fluctuation.

I blew the internal fuse in my V2 with a standard 12vdc charger. I run just the laptop off the battery or I run a power cord from my garage outside and plug into that.

[Wolfie]

I received my usb isolater today, and while looking it over...
complete isolation from computer, signal and ground...
onboard power - 12v to 5v step down switching regulator, supplied by vehicle, tied to vehicle ground.
$50.00 is a small price to pay to save cooking the V2.

[badassmax]

What is it, and where to buy? Thanx:cheers:

[Wolfie]

my post, a couple up, has the info.
I just got back from 1200miles and over 24 hours on the computer... works great, no more disconnects either.

[O1Z06]

I unplugged my laptop today thinking I had some battery life left and it just died. So my next thought was I'll just use the wall connector. To be safe I checked the differential between the pins and ground near the laptop usb connector. It's 250mv, which as I read is way above the 50mv limit. So it looks like I will be getting a fresh battery from radio shack tomorrow. But, what are my other options from say Radio Shac? Can I use a DCtoDC cigarette lighter adapter (no inverter) to power the laptop? To be on the safe side, I guess I would check the differential again using this method. Cheers, oh and by the way this is my first post and EFI Live ROCKS!

[Ira]

So, I'm the person in the US who gets to fix these when you blow them up. Usually it's just a $2 fuse that goes, but it means you are out your FlashScan for a few days and get to pay shipping and repair charges. With an iffy battery charger on the car's battery plugged into one phase of the building's wiring and your laptop plugged into the other phase so you end up with 120 or 240 across the EFILive, they can show up with nothing working. If you do that I'll see you get taken care of on the replacement, but you do get to buy a new one. Cigarette lighter converters are usually fine, but when they aren't or when they die in a puff of smoke they will often take other things out with them.

Ira

[O1Z06]

Ok thanks. To aid my peace of mind, how many amps is the fuse in the V2. I will check the resistance as well. Assuming I get ~0.05Ω, 250mV/0.05Ω = 5A. Is 5A too much? Thanks for the help. I am anal so I can't stop thinking about something until I know it is working within limits, in the mean time I get a headache.

[Ira]

Sorry, fuse is probably he wrong word. The chip that dies is more for static protection but it's in a place where it protects the V2. As USB can not supply more than 500ma, if you want to use a fuse it should be no more than 1/2 amp. It's not so much that too much current is drawn, it's more like the V2 gets used as a ground strap. In theory, one of these, http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtModelID=226 , should solve the problem. That's if I correctly understand what it it. I believe it electrically disconnects the device from the wall while still providing power, $100 or so from Amazon. But, modern small laptops are approaching 8 hours on a charge and a charged laptop battery is still the safest way to go.

Ira

[jlane330]

First post to EFILive...and a bit disappointed to read about these grounding issues. It sounds real simple right...just buy a new laptop with great battery life and there's the solution. Unfortunately, that's real simple for most, and considering that many of us have laptops that otherwise would work fine, seems there's some sort of alternative solution to be had. My laptop is old, and batteries are not available (even if they were, why would I buy new expensive laptop batteries for an old machine). It works great with my Holley EFI systems since it has a serial port (reason I have it). My options, so I thought, were these:

1. Use my old laptop (Win 2K) with an inverter. That's how I use it with the Holley systems. Sounds like I can't though without possibly damaging the V2.
2. Use the old laptop plugged into the wall for read/flash only. Data logging...guess I can't. Still a chance of damaging the V2.
3. Run a cord from my 2nd floor to my desktop. Not elegant, same issues as option 2.
4. Buy a new laptop. Uh, not right now.
5. BBx?

I found this thread looking for info on BBx. Is this an option? Where do I find more info about what it is, what it does, how to use it, etc? I have a duramax (06 van LLY, not even sure how to figure out the controller model number) that I want to read/flash/datalog. I can't afford to play guinea pig and damage hardware. This is all very confusing (I thought the Holley stuff was bad). Just the basic documentation could be simplier, IMO. Sorry for the bad attitude...I'm frustrated to find out that I can't use the hardware I had hoped to...help is appreciated. I do expect that EFI will do what I need and in the long run work great...

[Taz]

There may not be one solution that works for everyone. I spent $68 on eBay on an extended battery for my older Notebook (my newer Notebook is not compatible with an extended battery) - and this was money well spent. I can't speak to Diesel tuning, but I have found that anything I can log with the Notebook I can also log using the BBL option with the V2. I was initially resistant to the BBL option, but am using it more and more currently.


Regards,
Taz

[jlane330]

Thanks Taz. I think the real solution for my needs is BBR/L/F. I've been searching trying to find more info, but have come up short. My laptop is approx. 10 years old. I had over 10 batteries for it, but of course they're almost all dead now. Never a problem since I have always used the inverter. To be honest, I have no real use for a laptop except for EFI, which I'm hoping will be minimal use. I use desktops with high end video cards for CAD design. A low end laptop just isn't useful to my life.

I'll keep searching for BBx info. Thanks again!

[joecar]

If you have V2, there is no good reason for not using BBL/BBR/BBF (on a supported vehicle).

[jlane330]

If you have V2, there is no good reason for not using BBL/BBR/BBF (on a supported vehicle).

How do I find out if I have a supported vehicle? If it is supported, is there a simple tutorial for using the BBx features?

[joecar]

What year/model/vehicle do yo have...?

[Taz]

To access a list of supported vehicles go to the EFILive main webpage (www.efilive.com (http://www.efilive.com/)) then go to the “Support” tab … select “Supported Vehicles” (options are GM Gas Vehicles, GM Diesel vehicles, GM Transmissions). Click on whichever of those options applies to you … the vehicles are listed by their respective PCM / ECM.

Attached are 3 PDF files and one Word document (zipped) that relate to the V2 - hopefully these will answer at least some of your questions.


Regards,
Taz

[jlane330]

Thanks for the help! I guess I should be more clear. I've read up on the V2 manuals and other info I could find. My vehicle is listed as supported (that's why I ordered the V2). It's an '06 GMC Savanna with 6.6L Duramax. The vin code used is LLY, but it's the same as the LBZ (at least the engine with variable turbo is). The OS/tuning is different from the trucks though (can't use DSP). So, I guess what I'm asking for is a tutorial or manual on specifically using the BBx functions. Maybe it'll be more clear (self explanatory?) when I get it in hand (tomorrow). Just seems that this is a major change to the software (V7 to V8), and seems difficult to find info about. I must be missing something.

Again, thanks for the help. I'm hoping to use it this weekend to turn off EGR (put a blocker plate in last night along with a new direct pipe and 4" straight exhaust). Really don't want to screw anything up electronically...

[joecar]

How to use BBx:

1. update V7/V8 software from here: February-26th-2011-release-candidate-1 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15803-February-26th-2011-release-candidate-1)
2. update your V2 firmware (see post #1 of that link),
3. configure your Options.txt (see post #1 of that link),
4. read thru these threads (look at the pictorials):


showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2&p=128785#post128785)
showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL)
showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer&p=123595&viewfull=1#post123595)
showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data&p=136965#post136965)

[jlane330]

To access a list of supported vehicles go to the EFILive main webpage (www.efilive.com (http://www.efilive.com/)) then go to the “Support” tab … select “Supported Vehicles” (options are GM Gas Vehicles, GM Diesel vehicles, GM Transmissions). Click on whichever of those options applies to you … the vehicles are listed by their respective PCM / ECM.

Attached are 3 PDF files and one Word document (zipped) that relate to the V2 - hopefully these will answer at least some of your questions.


Regards,
Taz


Very helpful, thank you! Particularly the *.zip/*.doc file on flashing PCM with V2 handheld. Do you have anything like that for explaining data logging with the handheld?

Thanks again!

[EagleMark]

It's about that orange notice i received with my new flashscan v2: it says :do not connect flashscan between a vehicle and a personal computer or a laptop if that computer is being powered from the vehicle's 12 volt system through a power inverter. Doing so will almost certainly damage your flashscan device and possibly your laptop/computer

Is charging the laptop battery from DC/Cig lighter through the laptop battery charger an issue? No 110 Power Invertor! It's 12 volt laptop charger.

I've got plenty of battery life, 110 volt charger on desk but have a second 12 volt charger for the vehicle and try to keep close to full charge for flashing. Most times it is not plugged in, it's just a convenience. Sometimes I forget to unplug it! But if this has the possibility of frying V2 or? I'll just pull it out.

[m58mw]

I run a 12v laptop charger from the cigar lighter and most of the time it seems to be fine, it really doesn't like it if I connect my roadrunner ecu at the same time as my flashscan and charger.
you will soon work it out because smoke comes out of stuff

[EagleMark]

I also run the RoadRunner and Flashscan and WideBand Serial to V2. I've had the 12 volt laptop battery charger hooked up on occasion, only because I forgot to unplug the charger.

If there's a possibility of this causing smoke? I'll pull the charger out of vehicle!

[m58mw]

maybe its just my laptop but if I have the v2 and roadrunner plugged into the laptop with the charger at the same time it actually stalls the engine now I only plug in the roadrunner on its own and the charger only with the v2

[joecar]

Any time you have multiple ground paths you can have a potential problem...

ground path #1 = laptop -> charger -> cigar lighter socket -> vehicle
ground path #2 = laptop -> USB port -> FlashScan -> OBD2 port -> vehicle


edit: updated path #1

[EagleMark]

Any time you have multiple ground paths you can have a potential problem...

ground path #1 = laptop -> cigar lighter socket -> vehicle
ground path #2 = laptop -> USB port -> FlashScan -> OBD2 port -> vehicleThanks for clearing that up Joe! I was under the impression it had to do with 110 volt invertors only. I get 6 hours from a full charge, but don't normally charge battery till 30% or so. Supposed to be better for battery's. Since my old laptop battery was 3 years old and still got 4 hours, I'll stick with that program. Less charges... letting battery use most of charge before full recharge. Not good to keep topped off with small charges.

Is there any guidelines for laptop charge percent remaining for flashing? I know a weak vehicle battery can cause issues...

[joecar]

I would make sure that both laptop battery and vehicle battery are all the way charged before flashing (but that's just me being an engineer).

[EagleMark]

Can't go wrong like that!

But hard to always have 100% on laptop charge... Both my laptops have big battery's that run 4-6 hour depending on use. I've always used a 70% charge rule and never had an issue flashing.

HTH!

[joecar]

70% charge sounds like a good rule.