Calc.VET: correcting MAF and calculating VE (in single log) [Archive]

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WeathermanShawn

January 17th, 2011, 09:25 AM

In-Memory-of-Shawn-Sankey (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16849-In-Memory-of-Shawn-Sankey)

AIMS:

Calculate the VE Table in a Single Log Session (whole RPM range, whole MAP range)

0. That you make an effort to understand what is going on here (and not blindly follow along without understanding).
1. Tune both CL and PE/WOT,
2. Correct MAF,
3. Calculated new VE from corrected MAF,
4. Reduce Trims (closer to zero %).

The Calc.VET tutorial is this post (post #1 of this thread) and any links it points you to.

PRELIMINARY:

1. Read thru this entire post (post #1).
2. Goto section III. Appendix, see point 6, is your OS listed...? if not, you have to create the pid CALC.B4901.
3. If you have a V1, goto section II and then return to section I.
4. If you have an analog wideband, goto section II and then return to section I.
5. If you have V2 and a serial comms wideband, goto section I.
6. Make sure all the pids mentioned are valid (no red X thru any pids).
7. Goto section III. Appendix, see point 1, have a read of CALC-VET-Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes).

How do you know if your V2 is using serial comms to read from the wideband...?
You would know because you would have had to rig up a null modem serial comms cable.

If you have a V1 then you cannot use serial comms (see point 3 above).

I. PROCEDURE for SERIAL WIDEBAND and V2

1. Setup Calculated PIDS:

14575 <--- updated calc_pids.txt file

Copy this ^ calc_pids.txt file to this location: My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt

(or using a suitable non-formatting editor, copy/paste its contents into the file at this ^ location on your PC).

This calc_pids.txt calculates the correction factor as follows (see CLC-00-110): "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}"

EXT.WO2LAM1 is the wideband measured lambda which V2 reads from the wideband over the serial comms (null modem cable);
so to use this you have get your V2 reading serial comms data from the wideband.

1(a). Set Displacement (only if you really must use [%] VE units):
Open a Log File, go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, save the log file.
This matters only if you're using [%] VE units; if you're using [g*K/kPa] VE units then you do not need displacement.

It is highly recommended to use [g*K/kPa] units (in tunetool go Edit->Properties and set VE units to g*K/kPa).

2. Select the following CALC.VET pids and record a suitable log:

Before logging, use the scantool to clear trims
( goto DVT tab, select PCM, goto Learning subtab, click Activate, click Fuel Reset, wait a few moments, click De-activate )

18830 <-- copy this file to \Documents\EFILive\V7.5\PIDs, and in the scantool on the PIDs tab open it.

http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16509&d=1394481006

Those are the absolute minimum (mandatory) pids you must log.

If any pid is invalid (has a red X thru it), do this:
- place the cursor on it and do rightclick->More Info to see which other pids need to be selected,
- go ahead and select those other pids,
- repeat until there are no pids with a red X thru them.

In Addition, the Following Pids Are Highly Recommended:

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/OtherCALCVETPids.png

Note: Keep Channel Count at 24 or less for Fastest Scanning (channel count is displayed at bottom of PIDs tab).

Remember to save your pid selection (give it a meaningful filename, e.g. "calc.vet.pid").

AFTER YOU HAVE CAPTURED A LOG (see scantool user manual pdf), THEN PROCEED TO STEP 3.

3. Setup MAF (CALC.SELBEN) and VE (CALC.VET) maps:

In the scantool, on the Maps tab, use tab A for MAF ("map A"), and tab B for VE ("map B");

for map A:
- in tunetool: goto B5001 MAF table, on the tile in upper left go rightclick->Copy With Labels;
- in scantool: edit map properties for map A, on each of Row and Col tabs click Paste Labels;
- on Data tab click Show Names and select CALC.SELBEN, checkmark Show Units, set Precision to 3;
- on Row tab click Show Names and select GM.MAFFREQ checkmark Show Units;
- on Col tab click Show Names and select any pid you logged (e.g. GM.MAFFREQ);
- on Cells tab constrain the cell width;
- click Save As and give it a meaningful filename.
21443

for map B:
- in tunetool: goto B0101 VE table, on the tile in upper left go rightclick->Copy With Labels;
- in scantool: edit map properties for map B, on each of Row and Col tabs click Paste Labels;
- on Data tab click Show Names and select CALC.VET, checkmark Show Units, set Precision to 3;
- on Row tab click Show Names and select SAE.RPM;
- on Col tab click Show Names and select SAE.MAP checkmark Show Units;
- click Save As and give it a meaningful filename.
21442

See attached zip contains those 2 maps already made (unzip and copy to \Documents\EFILive\V7.5\Maps): 21440

4. Apply CALC.VET Filter:

(Filters out ECT, IAT, All Throttle Transients, DFCO, Stalls, etc)

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/CALCMAFTFilter.png

Also include terms to exclude:
- decel MAP (e.g. exclude MAP < 50 kPa)
- closed throttle (e.g. TP < 1%).

If you don't see a filter named CALC.VET, then create a new one (click New, name it CALC.VET,
set the Filter control to Exclude data frames) and fill it in with the same conditions as shown.

4(a). Hide low count cells:
click the hide-low-count-cells button [ need image ].

4(b). Apply the tansient filter:
click the apply filter button (see scantool user manual) [ need image ].

5. Paste the CALC.VET map into your B0101 VE table:

Copy-with-labels the new CALC.VET map and paste-with-labels into table B0101 in your tune file.

Note that the CALC.VET map replaces your B0101.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/CALCVET.png

NOTE: for map Data, use the CALC.VET pid units that match your B0101 table, i.e. either [%] or [g*K/kPa].

To display units on a map (highly recommended): go to map properties, on each of the Data, Row, Col tabs, checkmark Show Units.

When viewing a map, click the n button to see cell counts (hits), click the x-bar button to see the pid average values.

6. Multiply the CALC.SELBEN map into your B5001 MAF table:

Copy-with-labels the new CALC.SELBEN map and paste-multiply-with-labels into Table B5001 in your tune file.

Note that the CALC.SELBEN map corrects (by multiplication) your B5001.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/SELBEN.png

When viewing a map, click the n button to see cell counts (hits), click the x-bar button to see the pid average values.

II. PROCEDURE for ANALOG WIDEBAND or V1

To obtain LAMBDA from an analog wideband: divide wideband AFR by the wideband's assumed stoich AFR.

Using NGK AFX as example (NGK assumes stoich to be 14.57):
edit CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) to say this "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{CALC.AFR_NGK1.AFR}/14.57"

Note: use the CALC.AFR_xxx pid that is relevant to your actual wideband.

Modify the calc_pids.txt file from section I above.

And then proceed to perform the same procedure in section I.

III. APPENDIX:

Additional Links & Resources

1. Advanced CALC.VET Summary Notes: CALC-VET-Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes)

2. Calculating MAF Airflow From VE Table (CALC.VET In Reverse): Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table..CALC-VET-In-Reverse (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16413-Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table..CALC-VET-In-Reverse)

3. CALC.VET utilizes EQIVRATIO which is superior to AFR (avoids different stoich AFR's of different fuels).

4. How-to-match-wideband-output-to-B3601 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13229-How-to-match-wideband-output-to-B3601&p=117265#post117265)

5. Two Methods for Calculating Analog Wideband Lambda (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=137997&viewfull=1#post137997)

6. The pid GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA is not defined for OS's 19980100, 1998020, 19980400, and some others...
but you can create a CALC.B4901 lookup pid instead, see the following alternate calc_pids.txt:
14797 <-- check that this contains the same B4901 data as your tune file.

The pid GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA is defined only for these LS1 OS's:
12202088 92111922 12208322 12225074 12212156 12221588 12216125 12577216 12579405 12580055 12585318 12593058 12509967 12587604
12588804 12592433 12585950 12587603 12592425 12606960 12592618 12593555 12606961 12612115 12587811 12606807 12608669 12597120
For the OS's listed ^ here you do not need to create the pid CALC.B4901.
For any OS not listed here you have to create the pid CALC.B4901 using your own B4901 data (see the calc_pids.txt immediately above).

1997 Corvette & 1998 Corvette/Camaro/Firebird Pids:
( include all the same pids as in section I.2 above, and include CALC.B4901, and exclude GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA )

Credits: (in no particular order):
Weathermanshawn for inventing/exploring the idea of correcting VE and MAF simultaneously from a single log.
mr.prick for his assistance in calculating Analog Wideband Lambda.
joecar (forum moderator) for analyzing/deriving the CALC.VET equation(s) in terms of a log-able pids.
21439

redhardsupra

January 17th, 2011, 12:19 PM

how are you using trims (aka the resulting BEN) from narrowbands to do WOT which needs enriched fueling?

WeathermanShawn

January 18th, 2011, 12:52 PM

Marcin the second PID is using Commanded Fuel vs Actual. So in open-loop it is functioning as any normal 'AFRBEN'. The point of the method is that an AFRBEN correction functions in the same manner as a LTFTBEN in closed-loop. The formula just changes the methodology of the Airflow/fueling correction..:rolleyes:

pavetim

January 22nd, 2011, 05:33 AM

So pretty much you log like you would on the CalcVE tutorial but when you want to tune for PE/WOT you would setup a map for BEN1 vs MAP vs RPM and filter out including PE mode? And copy then paste/multiply just like the CalcVE using the NB?st use your WB for the entire process?

pavetim

January 27th, 2011, 06:53 AM

Wow so you dont even have to filter out between non-pe mode and pe mode? You just do the Calc VE table PID you have set up and copy/paste? how does the formula know when to swap over between NB and WB?

WeathermanShawn

January 27th, 2011, 07:20 AM

Thats right Tim.

The 'secret' is in this Calculated Pid along with re-defining the 'Airflow Correction' Term(s).

"iff({CALC.PE},{CALC.WO2BEN1}, {CALC.LTFTBEN})"

{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*3445.2/(5.669*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"

The first few terms defines PE Mode, the last two say use WO2BEN if it is in PE Mode or LTFTBEN if is not in PE Mode. Kudos to Joecar who took everybody's ideas and got it to work.

pavetim

January 27th, 2011, 07:33 AM

Well whenever this guy gets that damn bung welded in i'm gonna give it a shot and see how it goes. Great work that would save alot of time and confusion.

WeathermanShawn

January 27th, 2011, 07:43 AM

Thanks.

When you get ready to do it, let me know. There will be a few slight changes in one of two PIDS, and one of the BEN terms.

All in all, hopefully easier. My goal would be to never have to do any cutting, copying, pasting, or filtering. You just log and all the data would be there..I guess you would still have to at least one paste..:grin:.

bmax

January 27th, 2011, 11:20 AM

Shawn,

Are you basing this calc on E10?

14.124?

Thanks

Brad

joecar

January 27th, 2011, 12:02 PM

Shawn,

Are you basing this calc on E10?

14.124?

Thanks

BradThat AFR would be E10.

bmax

January 27th, 2011, 12:28 PM

Thanks Joe,

I should have been more clear.

I was looking for some clarification on this.

"Stoichiometric AFR (see B3601)"

I didn't know if this value should be changed in the calc pid to reflect what's in your tune.

Brad

pavetim

January 27th, 2011, 12:31 PM

You can change that. The afr he has is E10 but for gas just change it to 14.63 and you have to go into your tune and make sure your stoich is set to same thing also.

bmax

January 27th, 2011, 12:37 PM

That's what I thought.

Thanks

Brad

joecar

January 27th, 2011, 02:47 PM

Yes, do everything in EQR.

Set B3601 to the stoichiometric AFR of the fuel you're using (14.63 gas, 14.12 E10, 9.7 E85...)

There are gasoline/alcohol content measuring kits cheaply available, they come with a stoich AFR chart.

bmax

January 27th, 2011, 03:17 PM

Thanks guys.

I'm still learning on the calc pids but that seemed like what you meant.

Brad

WeathermanShawn

January 27th, 2011, 03:25 PM

bmax

January 27th, 2011, 05:36 PM

Shawn,

I have used EQR since I started using the software.

That was kinda what sparked the question.

Thanks for all your help around here.

You too Joe.

Brad

joecar

January 28th, 2011, 04:38 AM

Brad, though the first two PIDS are good ones to have, technically you only need the following to make the formula work (see attachment). This is part of the R&D still being done, but I appreciate the volunteers who are willing to do it.

As long as you utilize EQ and pick the GM.EQIVRATIO PID in lieu of Commanded AFR, its as easy as it gets.

Shawn is correct, CALC.STOICH and CALC.AFR are not needed (they are purely a mental aid for viewing AFR from GM.EQIVRATIO).

Shawn has simplified his posted calc_pids.txt file above by removing those two pids.

joecar

January 28th, 2011, 04:52 AM

Even when using EQR, you still need to set B3601 for the fuel you're running on...

The PCM does its calculations using EQR, but it still uses B3601 to convert EQR to fuelmass [grams] before calculating injector pulsewidth.

joecar

January 28th, 2011, 11:38 AM

Thanks.

:cheers:

Paul found a small bug and fixed it.

I'll be in Jamaica next week (20th wedding anniversary) and I'm hoping to be able to check the internet.

Ninety8C5

January 28th, 2011, 03:09 PM

Thanks.

:cheers:
I'll be in Jamaica next week (20th wedding anniversary) and I'm hoping to be able to check the internet.

Probably not a good idea to check the internet while celebrating your wedding anniversary. :grin:

joecar

January 28th, 2011, 09:07 PM

lol... she has to sleep sometime, right... :hihi:

joecar

January 29th, 2011, 07:14 AM

Shawn,

I found this on my PC, it is a chart showing the order of precedence of the calc pids operators (when in doubt, use parentheses).

For example, this chart tells you that a + b * c would be calculated like this a + (b * c) and not like this (a + b) * c.

WeathermanShawn

January 30th, 2011, 11:33 PM

Thanks Joe.

Have updated the thread to include a brief description of how the CALC.VET process works (page 1).

Using your factory narrowbands (NB's) and with a wideband (WO2) attached you can calibrate your MAF, Trims, PE Mode/WOT..and your VE Table will be 'automatically' calculated.

This is the one of the most inclusive and total tuning method available. I will publish it in PDF form shortly.

The CALC.VE Tutorial will also be updated shortly.

..WeathermanShawn..

shadowskill

February 5th, 2011, 04:09 PM

I used Calc.VE after using AutoVE (I like using MAF and CL). I'm trying to use now this method, but I'm stuck with analog inputs for my FlashScan (V1), so EXT.WO2LAM1 is unavailable to me, and calculated PIDs for LC-1 do not have Lambda units. Looking forward to the next-gen Calc.VE (Calc.VET) :grin:

WeathermanShawn

February 5th, 2011, 04:28 PM

Shadow, we could probably figure a way around having to have the Serial Pids.

My man Joecar is on vacation right now, but I am sure we could figure out a substitute for you. You basically just need that BEN for an AFR. We might need to input the Analog WO2 Pid in place on the existing one.

Give us another week or two. He is the master of CALC.Pids.

So far my testing on it has shown great promise. I am just getting the Tutorial written up now.

Thanks for your interest.:).

shadowskill

February 5th, 2011, 08:14 PM

Yay! Thanks! It would seem a calculated pid based on EXT.AD1-2 should do the trick. That would get us, V1 guys, aboard this great method! (Still getting the grasp on pids and such) Being able to tune on CL and PE on the same log session is really neat!! This new Calc.VE rocks!

mr.prick

February 5th, 2011, 10:23 PM

Making a calc.pid for Lambda is not that hard. (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13229-How-to-match-wideband-output-to-B3601&p=117265#post117265) ;)

WeathermanShawn

February 6th, 2011, 01:29 AM

Yea, Mr. Prick is right. It can be easily done.

*CLC-00-110 factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * EXT.WO2LAM1}"

CALC.WO2BEN1 F110 CLC-00-110 factor Wideband "BEN from Serial Wideband 1"

As long as you can express EXT.AD1-2 into the PID CALC.WO2BEN1 you can do it. Then you can change "BEN from Serial Wideband 1" to read "Ben from EXT.ADI-2", or whatever you want it to say. It will work.

It is a pretty neat method.

It is lot easier filtering Airflow/Fueling corrections (LTFT & AFR/EQ) from the MAF Airflow than directly correcting the VE Table (IMO). Even during DFCO, hard shifting, etc., MAF airflow drops and the resultant SELBEN drops quite nicely into the low MAP area of the VE Table. Tuners that can quickly eliminate +LTFTS will have the most success with this method. +LTFT's skew the calculation..its just the nature of how the PCM deals with it, not the calculation itself.

But, to directly answer your question. Yes, V1 users can also do this method.

tatasta

February 6th, 2011, 06:44 AM

Shawn or joecar
I am getting close to running my new s/c setup and have been working on the tune. For the new CALC.VE method, will I need to copy your calc.pids directly to my existing list? Once i get the calc_pids set, where do I find CALC.SELBEN, GM EQUIVRATIO for my list pids to monitor? Your image of your F8 PIDS list is difficult to read (on my computer).
Thanks
Bob

WeathermanShawn

February 6th, 2011, 08:09 AM

Bob, try this attachment...(you may have to hit Zoom to expand)..

Also, make sure you are running Tuning software 147 or later. This version of CALC.VET requires a serial WO2 connection.

As always a number of the Pids 'validate' when you 'highlight' them. If you really know what you are doing you can apply almost all the Calculated Pids 'post-log'.

Most of the new Pids will be under 'Calculated' or 'Tuning'.

Hopefully in the next week I can publish a short "Quick Guide to CALC.VET Tuning".

tatasta

February 6th, 2011, 10:27 AM

Shawn,

I attached a copy of my CALC PIDS (copied from yours lol), my previous CALC.PIDS and a shot of my PID list. I am using my NGK wideband on BEN 2 and EXT AD2. Does that I will use EXT.W2OEQR2 rather than EXT.W2OEQR1, and so on?
A couple of my selected PIDS still show an X through them. I dunno. What am I missing?
Thanks

WeathermanShawn

February 6th, 2011, 10:47 AM

Bob, I take it you are using Analog WO2 in lieu of Serial?

I have not worked out the CALC.Pid yet for Analog..but here is an educated guess..

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.BEN_NGK2}"

See you just want a BEN Factor. Really does not matter if Serial or Analog. But, we may need some expert help to configure if Analog WO2.

You can drop Commanded AFR (use GM.EQIVRATIO)..probably drop the two Serial WO2 Pids if Analog.

We just need a CALC.Pid for an Analog WO2 BEN. There is also an issue of the PRC numbering and CALC.Pids. They have to be in sequence. So a little tricky, but doable.

tatasta

February 6th, 2011, 10:57 AM

WeathermanShawn

February 6th, 2011, 11:19 AM

Agree.

If your LTFTs are reasonable and not positive you can still compute a reasonable VE Table in the upper RPMs.

I'm sure in a few more weeks we will have all the details on this updated method 100% done.

Please let us know if we can help..and have fun with that SC!

Frozen WS6

February 6th, 2011, 12:05 PM

mr.prick

February 6th, 2011, 02:52 PM

I've got build 149 and there is no tuning section in the pid list. :nixweiss:

{EXT.W2OEQR1}&{EXT.W2OEQR2} are for serial WBO2 only.

To use {GM.EQIVRATIO} with an analog only WBO2 you need a pid for Lambda.
NGK AFX Lambda = ({EXT.AD1}*0.096)+0.62 or ({EXT.AD2}*0.096)+0.62

The "new" BEN pid will be ({GM.EQIVRATIO}*{Lambda})

WeathermanShawn

February 6th, 2011, 04:29 PM

WeathermanShawn

February 6th, 2011, 04:39 PM

I read through the tutorial. Looks like this does not work with V1?
I'm missing the calc ltft, calc ltft ben, gm dynaairtemp_dma
My cars are 98 and 2001 TAs.

Oh the best part is while trying this, I accidently saved over my default metric pids. Ooops. :frown:

Frozen:

You have to add the Calculated Pids to your calc_pids.txt file (same as the CALC.VE Tutorial). The file is located on page 1 of this thread, and also in the previous post.

Sometimes you have to hook up your Scan Tool and enable the 'Validate Pids' Function. Some OS's do not have DYNAIRTMP.DMA available. There is a work-around for this, but hopefully that is not the case.

We are in the final processes of incorporating the ability of Analog WO2's to also compute the CALC.VET. So, it will work with V1.

It always takes a while to get a new Tuning method up to full steam. But it will be worth the wait, so thanks for your patience.:)..

Frozen WS6

February 6th, 2011, 06:06 PM

Frozen:

You have to add the Calculated Pids to your calc_pids.txt file (same as the CALC.VE Tutorial). The file is located on page 1 of this thread, and also in the previous post.

Sometimes you have to hook up your Scan Tool and enable the 'Validate Pids' Function. Some OS's do not have DYNAIRTMP.DMA available. There is a work-around for this, but hopefully that is not the case.

We are in the final processes of incorporating the ability of Analog WO2's to also compute the CALC.VET. So, it will work with V1.

It always takes a while to get a new Tuning method up to full steam. But it will be worth the wait, so thanks for your patience.:)..

I'm all about this getting simpler for us computer illiterate, that's why I bought this over hptuners. But I see no way to add new pids anywhere, or find any how to, to tell me how or where to do it. I see your codes on the first page but.. I've read both threads on this and have had no luck.
I'm using the v1 with 7.5 and the latest update.

mr.prick

February 6th, 2011, 06:34 PM

Hey Mr. Prick:

Thanks for the write-up on the Analog BEN Pid.

I should have been a little more clear. You have to utilize the calc_pids.txt file attached to add the necessary Pids. We added 3 Pids to the 'Tuning' Section.

The latest software updates were to allow for a successful nesting of several Calc.Pids. There was a software glitch prior to build 147 which caused a one-frame delay..Build 147 and later solves this.

Let me know if the Pids still don't show up..

Thanks..

Oh. :doh:

I'm all about this getting simpler for us computer illiterate, that's why I bought this over hptuners. But I see no way to add new pids anywhere, or find any how to, to tell me how or where to do it. I see your codes on the first page but.. I've read both threads on this and have had no luck.
I'm using the v1 with 7.5 and the latest update.

You add them to the calc_pids.txt that is in the My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration folder.
calc_pids are covered in the EFILiveV75Scan.pdf (pages 92-96)

You can download Shawns and cut & paste the ones you want to your current calc_pids.txt or overwrite it.

joecar

February 7th, 2011, 10:56 AM

I got into LAX at about 1:00am this morning (the connecting flight from MIA was delayed a few hours)... :doh2:

Yes, you can define your own calc pid section names, Shawn and I defined "Tuning".

For analog wideband, lambda is the AFR divided by the stoich AFR of the wideband... see mr.prick's spreadsheet...

For example, the LC-1 lambda is {CALC.AFR_LC11} / 14.7.

[ what, 10am and no poolside margaritas...?! :doh2: ]

WeathermanShawn

February 7th, 2011, 11:21 AM

Hi Joe, welcome back. We missed you.

Seems to be a fair amount of interest in the new CALC.VET Tuning method.

I would like to get a short little guide put together. At some point I/we can tackle the Tutorial itself.

Do you have any ideas how to easily address the Analog WO2 Pids formation? I.E., if Analog use this calc_pids.txt file..if Serial use the following.

The main confusion will be the initial decision tree. If just using NB's..use LTFTBEN. If NB and WO2 use SELBEN. I don't see any way of having just one calc_pids.txt file for all of them. Its possible, but might be more work than it is worth.

A few thoughts to ponder..

joecar

February 7th, 2011, 02:39 PM

Thanks for the welcome back :cheers:

For analog wideband's (using LC-1 for example):
CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) can be redefined as: {GM.EQIVRATIO} * ({CALC.AFR_LC11} / 14.7)

[ note that ({CALC.AFR_LC11} / 14.7) is wideband lambda ]

It seems that it might be easier to have one calc_pids.txt file (for serial wideband) and have any analog wideband users tailor this file for their own wideband, i.e. edit CLC-00-110 as shown above, see the (xxxx), since there are so many analog wideband AFR calc pids.

Frozen WS6

February 7th, 2011, 05:26 PM

Oh.

You add them to the calc_pids.txt that is in the My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration folder.
calc_pids are covered in the EFILiveV75Scan.pdf (pages 92-96)

You can download Shawns and cut & paste the ones you want to your current calc_pids.txt or overwrite it.

Thanks. I'll give that a try this weekend when I have some time again.

joecar

February 8th, 2011, 06:10 AM

These two methods of obtaining analog lambda are identically the same thing...

I've got build 149 and there is no tuning section in the pid list. :nixweiss:

{EXT.W2OEQR1}&{EXT.W2OEQR2} are for serial WBO2 only.

To use {GM.EQIVRATIO} with an analog only WBO2 you need a pid for Lambda.
NGK AFX Lambda = ({EXT.AD1}*0.096)+0.62 or ({EXT.AD2}*0.096)+0.62

The "new" BEN pid will be ({GM.EQIVRATIO}*{Lambda})

Thanks for the welcome back :cheers:

For analog wideband's (using LC-1 for example):
CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) can be redefined as: {GM.EQIVRATIO} * ({CALC.AFR_LC11} / 14.7)

[ note that ({CALC.AFR_LC11} / 14.7) is wideband lambda ]

It seems that it might be easier to have one calc_pids.txt file (for serial wideband) and have any analog wideband users tailor this file for their own wideband, i.e. edit CLC-00-110 as shown above, see the (xxxx), since there are so many analog wideband AFR calc pids.

mr.prick's method has the user pre-calculate two constants (i.e. the user pre-calculates this: AFR pid divided by stoich AFR).

mr.prick's method evaluates a single pid, is more direct (it evaluates lambda directly in one pid/calculation).

joecar's method chain evaluates two pids/calculations (it evaluates the AFR pid first, then divides it by stoich AFR to obtain lambda).

WeathermanShawn

February 8th, 2011, 03:02 PM

Joe:

I am trying to show an example of a Calculated Pid for Analog Widebands. I also copied most of yours and Mr. Pricks comments into the CALC.VET Quick Start Guide on page 1:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.

At your convenience could you take a look at the attached Analog Pid and see if I copied it correctly. Feel free to substitute Mr. Pricks version if you feel it is a better example.

If you need to Edit any of your comments on Post 1..feel free to do so.

Thanks..

joecar

February 8th, 2011, 04:02 PM

Shawn,

Looks good; I made some edits to post #1 to make shorter and to flow easier (less to read = less chance of mistake) :)

joecar

February 8th, 2011, 04:26 PM

Shawn,

You might want to replace the calc_pids.txt file in post #1 with the new one (see the one attached to post #39)...

[ i.e. the new calc_pids.txt file that has "iff({CALC.PE}, {CALC.WO2BEN1}, {CALC.LTFTBEN})" ]

:)

WeathermanShawn

February 8th, 2011, 04:29 PM

Much Appreciated Joe.

It flows really well.

To all CALC.VET Users, the method is pretty much good to go. I have done nearly a dozen runs to verify the accuracy of the formula and the method. As long as your NB's, WB, and MAF are 'healthy' you will get great results. I also did several logs where I also failed the MAF to verify the VE Table accuracy. It was very close to an open-loop SD Tune previously done on my vehicle.

The attached CALC.VET Filter (post 1) has also been put through the rigors of testing. The CALC.VET assumptions work best on a vehicle that has reached normal ECT conditions. The Filter for rapid TPS changes will filter bogus DFCO events and allow for a very smooth MAF curve.

At some point in the somewhat near future we will add a section to the current CALC.VE Table Tutorial that will address every detail possible.

Special thanks to Joecar who ironed out the CALC.VE and CALC.VET formulas (understatement) and worked magic on formulating the required Calculated Pids. Thanks also to Mr. Prick for his work on Calc. Pids for Analog WB, spreadsheet, and resultant BENS.

Please feel free to comment on this thread or start another if you have problems or general comments.

Thanks..

joecar

February 8th, 2011, 04:33 PM

And thanks to Blacky who promptly fixed the order-of-evaluation-bug that was delaying calculated pids by a few frames.

WeathermanShawn

February 8th, 2011, 04:37 PM

Thanks Blacky. You made it work!

Joe, double-check the calc_pids.txt file now on post 1. I think I have the right one now..

joecar

February 8th, 2011, 04:38 PM

I checked the calc_pids.txt in post #1, it is now the right one :cheers:

joecar

February 9th, 2011, 05:49 AM

...
But I see no way to add new pids anywhere, or find any how to, to tell me how or where to do it.
...Hi Frozen,

The new pids are added via the calc_pids.txt file...

If you have not previously edited your calc_pids.txt file, then copy the calc_pids.txt from post #1 to this folder on your PC:
My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration
that's for WinXP; Win7 is slightly different (but similar).

Make sure you have V7 software build 149 as this has a calc pid bug fix.

Wolfie

February 9th, 2011, 02:22 PM

Here we go again....

Frozen WS6

February 12th, 2011, 09:14 AM

Hi Frozen,

The new pids are added via the calc_pids.txt file...

If you have not previously edited your calc_pids.txt file, then copy the calc_pids.txt from post #1 to this folder on your PC:
My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration
that's for WinXP; Win7 is slightly different (but similar).

Make sure you have V7 software build 149 as this has a calc pid bug fix.

Thanks. I'm printing it out and working on that right now. I just went in and made sure I'm all up to date and no new updates so I should be good there.

Another question. I see I need to select the VSS pid. How important is that?
My car has a turbo 350 so that speed sensor is gone and my wheel speed sensors are gone also because of the addition of lightweight brakes, abs delete, and ford 9 rear.

I think this looks right.

# ================================================== ============================
# Add slot definitions here
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on "SLOT" formats
#
#Units Low High Fmt Expression
#------------ ------------- ------------- ---- --------------------------------------------------------------

*CLC-00-020
factor 0 1 .0 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} > 1 && {SAE.RPM} > 1200"

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * ({CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7)"

*CLC-00-200
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "({SAE.LONGFT1}+{SAE.LONGFT2})/200+1"

*CLC-00-220
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "iff({CALC.PE}, {CALC.WO2BEN1}, {CALC.LTFTBEN})"

*CLC-00-300
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*3445.2/(5.669*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*15/({SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"

# ================================================== ============================
*PRN - Parameter Reference Numbers
# --------------------------------
# See sae_generic.txt for more information on the *PRN section
#
#Code PRN SLOT Units System Description
#------------------------- ---- ------------ ---------------- ---------------- ------------------------------------------

CALC.PE F020 CLC-00-020 factor Enrichment "PE Mode"

CALC.WO2BEN1 F110 CLC-00-110 factor Wideband "BEN from Serial Wideband 1"
CALC.LTFTBEN F200 CLC-00-200 factor Tuning "BEN from LTFT"
CALC.SELBEN F220 CLC-00-220 factor Tuning "BEN selected from LTFT or WB"

CALC.VET F300 CLC-00-300 "%,VE" Tuning "Calculated VE Table"

WeathermanShawn

February 12th, 2011, 12:58 PM

You don't really need VSS.

I think everything else looks O.K. with the Calc. Pids. Make sure you log everything that is in that formula, including DYNAIRTMP.DMA.

You can always post your selected Pids if you have any questions..

Frozen WS6

February 12th, 2011, 02:22 PM

Ok so after reinstalling the 7.5.149 update. I still only have these pids and a couple that are red x'ed that look like I'm not able to use.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm222/FrozenWS6/01WS6/EFILIVE.jpg

I'm still missing BEN from LTFT
BEN from Serial Wideband 1
BEN selected from LTFT or WB
Calc VE Table
PE Mode

WeathermanShawn

February 12th, 2011, 02:46 PM

Frozen, if you look under the PID file name you will see a Tab that currently you have selected 'ALL'.

I don't see any of your Calculated Pids selected..so with that same TAB, check under the following:

1. Calculated
2. Tuning
3. Enrichment
4. Wideband

Try that. See in your calculated pids that where you have them directed.

The only PID that I am not sure your OS has is DYNAIRTMP.DMA. If you try the above again, let me know if DYNAIRTMP.DMA still shows invalid. There is a work around this one, but I need to know first..

Also, sometimes PIDS won't show up the first time unless you have the Scan Tool hooked up to the car. In fact there is a TAB called 'Validate Pids", You may have already done that, so feel free to ignore if you have already done that.

joecar

February 12th, 2011, 03:43 PM

You can click on the column heading "Caption", click on it one more time, the pid list now appears sorted alphabetical order on this column.

Or do what Shawn said.

Also, this is not important, if you care about the description, change Serial to Analog:

CALC.WO2BEN1 F110 CLC-00-110 factor Wideband "BEN from Serial Wideband 1"

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 02:46 AM

Just an Added Note:

For those OS's that do not have the DYNAIRTMP.DMA Pid supported, Forum member Ninety8C5 developed an excellent Calculated Pid that is highly accurate substitute.

This Table needs to be specific to your OS (if DYNAIRTMP.DMA) is not available. I.E. The Values need to match the Charge Temperature Blending (Factor) in B4901. Of course you would just simply substitute that Calculated Pid into the CALC.VET Equation.

EDIT: See Page 1 for all current CALC.Pids..

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 03:27 AM

So I went and plugged it all back into the car just to double check things. (Since it never hurts). I don't even have a tab called Enrichment. I have a fuel tab. But here are some crappy screen pics. None of pids I listed are there under any tab.

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm222/FrozenWS6/EFI%20Live%20Screen%20Shots/

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 03:31 AM

Frozen, I don't think your calc_pids.txt file is even going into your computer. Are you entering it?

Are you doing this: 1. Copy the calc_pids.txt file to this location, or copy/paste its contents to the file at this location on your PC:
My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt

(the syntax/sematics of calc pids are covered in the EFILiveV75Scan.pdf on pages 92-96)

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 03:38 AM

I did like Joecar explained to do. The my docs, efi live, user config, calc_pids. Copied and pasted them into there. I went back and looked there all still saved in there. Even the altered clc 00 110.
I looked up pages 92-96 thats just a foreign language to me. I grew up on old school carbed bigblocks, shit we didn't even have computers in school up here back then. lol So Thanks for the patients.

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 04:06 AM

Well Frozen it is somewhat bizarre. Normally there would only be two reasons none of the Calculated Pids are showing up. One, they are not being saved..or you are inadvertently saving two calc_pids.txt files.

Second, sometimes you have to hook up the Scan Tool, and validate the Pids..just check them even if unsupported and log them. But, you said you did that.

Thirdly, if one calculated Pid is dependent upon another then clicking one will 'enable' the other.

What is bizarre in your case is that they are simply not showing up. Can you triple verify you are hitting 'save as' to put them in the right place on the computer. No error codes or nothing? My hunch is that they are not being saved.

Yea, Frozen unfortunately I have learned that computer skills are a necessity to learning Tuning. Quite frankly I am self-taught and I also find it challenging at times.

If all else fails we may have to shout it out to Joecar, Mr. Prick, or another one of our Pid experts. It has me somewhat stumped what is going on..:confused:.

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 04:16 AM

Ok dumb question. Was it correct to add them to that calc_pid file or do I need a new file called calc_pid.txt? or is it the same? There was already a few things there and I just added the new stuff and saved it.
And is that where the DYNAIRTEMP will go also?

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 04:24 AM

Ok dumb question. Was it correct to add them to that calc_pid file or do I need a new file called calc_pid.txt? or is it the same?
And is that where the DYNAIRTEMP will go also?

You need to save a file called calc_pids.txt. It has all the necessary Pids (hopefully).

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 04:26 AM

So do I even need that one called calc_pid? or will that duplicate things even more since I just added them to the stuff already there? Should I try to delete anything back out of there?

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 04:31 AM

I am not sure what all you added to the User Configuration Folder..so try this.

Call up the calc_pids.txt file on page 1 of this thread (opens with Notepad). Save the whole file to User Configuration...

..You should only have one calc_pids.txt in there (its called a file, but you don't need to write out file..It should look exactly like the attachment I just posted..)

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 04:51 AM

:thankyou2: That worked.

So before I mess anything else up. Will I save that DYNAIRTMP_DMA pid in it's own file or add it to the calc pid txt file?

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 05:02 AM

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 05:14 AM

Cool.

For now I would leave that Calculated Pid DYNAIRTMP alone. If you do a log or if now your OS still comes up with a big red X for DYNAIRTEMP.DMA..then we will have to add it and also substitute the Calculated Pid into the CALC.VET formula.

All of this can get pretty tricky. One parenthesis or bracket missing can be a nightmare figuring it out.

Refresh my memory. Analog wideband or Serial?

Once we know how many more steps we need to take, I am hoping to do it with one unified calc_pids.txt (now that you know how to do it). How many Pids now show up on your Scan Tool?

I can do an idle and no load log. But I can't drive anywhere until late April. When the snow melts. But I want to be ready to go as soon as I can. That's why I'm trying to learn more now. lol

I'll have to plug it back in and see, I also have a red X on the BEN from Serial Wideband 1. It's a 98 ta with stock pcm if that tells you anything. 24 pids selected and only two with red X's.

I have a dynojet wideband 2. It says the inputs are analog 0-5v. Outputs are gauge driver 0-5v analog and Calibrated AFR 0-5v analog.

Ninety8C5

February 13th, 2011, 05:23 AM

I just checked table B4901 for a 98 Firebird and it looks identical to a 98 Corvette. I'm pretty sure he will have to use the Calculated DYNAIRTMP.pid as the DYNAIRTEMP.DMA will not be available.

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 05:33 AM

I just checked table B4901 for a 98 Firebird and it looks identical to a 98 Corvette. I'm pretty sure he will have to use the Calculated DYNAIRTMP.pid as the DYNAIRTEMP.DMA will not be available.

Thanks Ninety8C5. I just tried your Calculated DYNAIRTMP and it works quite well. I got no lag on it either. Maybe all the Calc.Pids are working better now..:).

Frozen, I think it is just labeling that is creating a problem with your Wideband Ben (you are Analog not Serial). Unless someone else volunteers it might take me the afternoon here to devise an Analog Wideband using the Calc.DYNAIRTMP in place of the DYNAIRTMP.DMA in the CALC.VET formula.

Even if you don't use it until April, its good practice for me. I'll check back with you later today..

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 05:40 AM

Thanks Ninety8C5. I just tried your Calculated DYNAIRTMP and it works quite well. I got no lag on it either. Maybe all the Calc.Pids are working better now..:).

Frozen, I think it is just labeling that is creating a problem with your Wideband Ben (you are Analog not Serial). Unless someone else volunteers it might take me the afternoon here to devise an Analog Wideband using the Calc.DYNAIRTMP in place of the DYNAIRTMP.DMA in the CALC.VET formula.

Even if you don't use it until April, its good practice for me. I'll check back with you later today..

Cool Thanks guys. I have the same wideband in my 2001 TA also. So I hope to finally get a tune into it this summer too.

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 06:46 AM

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 07:40 AM

Ninety8C5

February 13th, 2011, 07:40 AM

O.K., Frozen I think I have it. I checked this method and it was within 1/2% of the original CALC.VET Formula.

Attached is a calc_pids.txt that should work. But, you need to drop (click off) the following Serial Wideband Pids:

1. WO2AFR
2. WO2LAM1
3. WOQEQR1

Then under the Pid Selection..ANALOG pick the appropriate wideband..Should be BENLC11.

After all that you should not get any red X's.

Overwrite the existing calc_pids.txt (Hit Save AS under User Configuration).

Shawn,

Where did you get the values for the Calc.DYNAIRTMP.pid ? The ones in your Calc.pids,txt file don't agree with table B4901 for a 98 Firebird/Corvette.

The values in my file are:

*CLC-00-054
C -18.0 116.0 0.1 "{SAE.IAT.C}+(({SAE.ECT.C}-{SAE.IAT.C})*lookup({SAE.MAF.gps}, 0.0,0.600098, 10.0,0.171387, 20.0,0.128418, 30.0,0.085938, 40.0,0.081055, 50.0,0.071289, 60.0,0.062012, 70.0,0.054688, 80.0,0.047363, 90.0,0.042969, 100.0,0.042969, 110.0,0.042969, 120.0,0.042969, 130.0,0.042969, 140.0,0.042969, 150.0,0.042969))"

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 09:02 AM

Ok. So I copied and saved as twice just to make sure. Lol unselected those 3 Pids. Selected the analog Ben_lc11.
Plugged into my car and validated Pids.
Now Ben_lc11,
Ben from analog wideband 1
Calc VE Table
Dyna Air Temp
Are all x'ed out.

Frozen, here is what you need to do. Remember we don't have DYNAIRTMP.DMA anymore (your OS does not have it). You have to choose CALC.DYNAIRTMP. Once that Pid is enabled, then you choose CALC.VET..not CALC.VE.

WeathermanShawn

February 13th, 2011, 09:07 AM

Shawn,

Where did you get the values for the Calc.DYNAIRTMP.pid ? The ones in your Calc.pids,txt file don't agree with table B4901 for a 98 Firebird/Corvette.

The values in my file are:

*CLC-00-054
C -18.0 116.0 0.1 "{SAE.IAT.C}+(({SAE.ECT.C}-{SAE.IAT.C})*lookup({SAE.MAF.gps}, 0.0,0.600098, 10.0,0.171387, 20.0,0.128418, 30.0,0.085938, 40.0,0.081055, 50.0,0.071289, 60.0,0.062012, 70.0,0.054688, 80.0,0.047363, 90.0,0.042969, 100.0,0.042969, 110.0,0.042969, 120.0,0.042969, 130.0,0.042969, 140.0,0.042969, 150.0,0.042969))"

O.K. this one should be applicable.

Frozen, Analog users still need to pick all the applicable Analog Wideband Pids. If you right-click on any Pid, it should tell you what other supporting Pids are required.

Thanks Ninety8C5. I think I had utilized the LS1 Look-up Values to verify. Got the wrong one..Tnx again!

joecar

February 13th, 2011, 02:49 PM

Good job guys :cheers:

Also remember this: the calc_pids.txt file needs to have at least two blank lines at its end.

joecar

February 13th, 2011, 02:53 PM

Frozen,

your 2001 TA has GM.DYNAIRTMP defined so remember to use it instead of CALC.DYNAIRTMP which is for your 1998 TA.

Frozen WS6

February 13th, 2011, 06:24 PM

O.K. this one should be applicable.

Frozen, Analog users still need to pick all the applicable Analog Wideband Pids. If you right-click on any Pid, it should tell you what other supporting Pids are required.

Thanks Ninety8C5. I think I had utilized the LS1 Look-up Values to verify. Got the wrong one..Tnx again!

Ok I still have BEN_lc11 which is w02-analog and W02BEN1 which is BEN from analog wideband 1. So I selected there appropriate supporting pid. No more red x's. So I'll have to hook back up tomarrow and see what happens.

Frozen,

your 2001 TA has GM.DYNAIRTMP defined so remember to use it instead of CALC.DYNAIRTMP which is for your 1998 TA.

Ok I'll just save the pid selections with the car year in them so I don't get confused. Lol

Thanks again everyone for the tremendous help. :good:

voda1

February 14th, 2011, 03:25 AM

Where can I find the 7.5.149 update? Only see 7.5.6 Build 139 on efiLive website.

Frozen WS6

February 14th, 2011, 03:37 AM

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15552-January-31st-2011-pre-release-(Updated-Feb-03-2011)

The top one listed is for v7.5.149

shadowskill

February 16th, 2011, 10:27 AM

Yaaaay!!!! Did it with my LC-1 on AD1. Logged a short ride on Sunday! Made first correcctions on the tables and still very excited! Previously I had to AutoVE for the VE on normal load/ WOT and then do Calc.VE for MAF. Now it's all just in one!

This is a wonderful method VE on load, WOT and MAF, on a single session!!!!! Thanks Mr. Prick, joecar and WeathermanShawn. (Y)

WeathermanShawn

February 16th, 2011, 11:56 AM

Thank You.

It is always encouraging to hear success stories. I also think it is a pretty 'nifty' idea. I was getting concerned that the the difficulty some users were encountering just in understanding calculated pids was going to be an issue.

Glad to hear you understand the concept and took the leap.

It was a great team effort to accomplish this, so thanks for the kind words..:)

shadowskill

February 16th, 2011, 01:24 PM

The key on overcoming those difficulties for pids file are specific instructions for our WB. Happened to me on the LC-1. By the way, isn't the latest update through EVI Live itself good enough for the nested calc pids to work? (7.5.6 Build 139 as Frozen WS6 mentioned)

WeathermanShawn

February 16th, 2011, 02:57 PM

Thanks for your comments. We will see what we can do.

The latest software build (149) addressed the following: Calculated PIDs were not being evaluated in the correct order. That caused calculated PIDs that depended on the value of other calculated PIDs to lag by one or more frames. Calculated PIDs are now evaluated in PRN order, the lowest PRN is evaluated first.

That was a big deal as the problem caused a frame lag in the data. But, it did not negate the fact that the user must still save a copy of the calc_pids.txt file to their own computer. From this end its frustrating to develop a Tuning Program and have it get hung up on the 'computer application' portion.

But, I am glad you figured it out. Perhaps you can aid us when we get stuck on another wideband analog conversion..:).

Edit: All necessary Calc.Pids have moved to Page 1 to keep them updated..

joecar

February 16th, 2011, 03:16 PM

Thanks :cheers: good deal.

redhardsupra

February 21st, 2011, 03:08 AM

WeathermanShawn

February 21st, 2011, 03:14 AM

I still don't understand how is your fuel trim derived BEN any different from trims alone, or the classic BEN. Care to explain that, and I don't mean anecdotal evidence that ends with '..but it works for me' but have an actual derivation?

This Calculated Pid is the definition of the 'Airflow Correction' Term(s).

"iff({CALC.PE},{CALC.WO2BEN1}, {CALC.LTFTBEN})"

{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*3445.2/(5.669*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"

The first few terms defines PE Mode, the last two say use WO2BEN if it is in PE Mode or LTFTBEN if is not in PE Mode.

redhardsupra

February 21st, 2011, 03:34 AM

yes, I can read equations. where did it come from? how did you arrive at it?

WeathermanShawn

February 21st, 2011, 03:42 AM

yes, I can read equations. where did it come from? how did you arrive at it?

Welcome to one year ago Marcin..:grin:.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13152-New-Tuning-Tutorial-WeathermanShawn&p=117351&viewfull=1#post117351
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13152-New-Tuning-Tutorial-WeathermanShawn&p=117044#post117044
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13152-New-Tuning-Tutorial-WeathermanShawn&p=117048#post117048

redhardsupra

February 21st, 2011, 04:51 AM

WeathermanShawn

February 21st, 2011, 05:19 AM

For the record...:).

The derivation of the CALC.VE & CALC.VET came 100% from the formula found in the EFILive Tune Tool (VE Table).

I sent Joecar my 'formula' and the results of the initial testing. Yes, Joecar did all the heavy lifting and humbly took little praise.

In reality you could take the CALC.VET formula..make the 'airflow correction' 1.00, and substitute your own 'airflow correction'. Or you could simply take the MAF Airflow, and substitute any airflow parameter you wanted. Then you can define your own methodology.

Thanks for your 2006 work. We finally got it to work!:).

Wolfie

February 21st, 2011, 05:31 AM

I am thinking that DFCO should be disabled.
I am also thinking that nothing else needs to be changed.
I am also also thinking, actually was thinking, now thought, and finally realized, that doing things by the numbers actually works...
ie: getting it through my thick head that B3601 ( - The air-fuel ratio (AFR) considered to be stoichiometric) actually does need to be right... (sigh...)
It works just fine. Although short(er) logs than 1000 miles are better!
Anyway, thanks for your work Shawn!

WeathermanShawn

February 21st, 2011, 06:09 AM

Thanks Wolfie..

Ultimately disabling DFCO probably produces better results. Its odd..when you are in closed-loop and DFCO initiates, the LTFTBEN 'freezes' at the particular FTC..MAF, MAP decreases..so you get a somewhat reasonable low MAP VE % calculation.

Now when you are in PE Mode and shift (M6-DFCO), your AFR will spike and your VE % will not be accurate at that particular point. So, thats where the CALC.VET Filter comes in..I.E. ECT, and rapid TPS % are filtered out. So, good filtering eliminates the erroneous DFCO events.

I agree Disabling DFCO is probably superior to filtering. In all honesty, Wolfie I have struggled to keep the method as simple as possible. I know it sounds ridiculous that disabling DFCO is advanced, but you probably understand where I am coming from...

Thanks, and yes keep those logs under 1000 miles.. :).

joecar

February 21st, 2011, 06:45 AM

oh ok, so Joecar did all the heavy lifting, which is a complete rehash of my Sept 2006 paper, and then you respun it into some sort of 'methodology'. DJ Shawn and the WeatherGirls are mixing it up, yo... ;)Yes, I did read your paper which pulls together the equations for AFR, IPW, airmass/airflow, IGL to arrive at GMVE[g*K/kPa] and VE[%]: http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/HowSpeedDensityWorks16.doc (http://[URL).

:cheers:

(IGL has been around a long time, airmass/airflow more recent but still a number of years)

I took the equations for airmass/airflow and IGL and by a different route arrived at VE[g*K/kPa] and VE[%] in terms of log-able pids; we needed a VE pid that we could rely upon, see the thread on DYNAIRTMP_DMA vs CHRGTEMP_DMA (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4709-DYNAIRTMP_DMA-vs-CHRGTEMP_DMA&p=138787#post138787).

:cucumber:

Shawn came up with the idea of correcting the MAF using LTFT and/or WB before calculating the VE... this gives two abilities in one log: corrects the MAF, and calculates VE from corrected MAF.

Frozen WS6

February 25th, 2011, 08:55 AM

Question. I'm making my maps in the scan tool. I made VET (Average). Which is RPM/Map and I added the data filters.
I'm having trouble getting the SELBEN map right. I get MAFFREQ showing in the Row. I don't list a MAF Sensor Calibration option. I only have a MAF (Grams per second) or MAF (Pounds per minute) option. Also how do I make the map just show the Value like in Attach #9823.

WeathermanShawn

February 25th, 2011, 10:01 AM

From the Drop-Down menu, you pick 'BEN Selected from LTFT or WB (factor). Precision 3 gives you more digits than 2, etc..(number of digits).

For Value, see my attachment..You have to have ,Value..Column 1..

Frozen WS6

February 25th, 2011, 10:42 AM

Thanks again. I was thrown off by the part that said MAF Sensor Calibration.
Mine came up automatically as SELBEN in that location, so I retitled it lol.
Everything matches all the attachments now :w00t:

Started it to run a quick test log. I noticed my wideband is way off of what efilive is commanding and reading. So I'm reading about how to match them.
It also didn't log any long term fuel trims on either bank.

WeathermanShawn

February 25th, 2011, 11:56 AM

Make sure you have LONGFT1 & LONGFT2 selected along with LTFTBEN.

Obviously you have to have operating narrowbands (NB'S) for it to log..:).

Frozen WS6

February 25th, 2011, 12:48 PM

Make sure you have LONGFT1 & LONGFT2 selected along with LTFTBEN.

Obviously you have to have operating narrowbands (NB'S) for it to log..:).

haha. I have all 3 selected, the front NB's are still there the rear are deleted. It's logging the HO2S11, SELBEN just fine. LTFTBEN shows 1.000 and doesn't change.

So my wideband says lean, efilive says fat. B3601 is commanded 14.63.
I read the thread about matching them. What file do I need to add this code into to make sure it all matches. I got it out of the other thread. {EXT.AD}*2.9932+7.315

This snow sucks just 2.5 more months left of it. Damn car gassed me out of my garage before I could get the temps up really good even with both garage doors open and the 35 degrees with gusting winds.

WeathermanShawn

February 25th, 2011, 01:21 PM

LTFTBENS probably are never exactly zero..:confused:.

Post up your Tune & Log. I would be curious to see what your LONGFT1 & LONGFT2 are.

As far as your other questions..I'm not sure what you are asking. In CALC.VET all you are doing is taking your filtered data..and apply the SELBEN Map to Table B5001 in your Tune.

If your Commanded is not meeting actual..I would have to see your Log & Tune. You have to make sure you are indeed closed-loop, etc..too many factors to guess..

joecar

February 25th, 2011, 01:48 PM

powertrippin

March 3rd, 2011, 09:47 PM

Well me worthless 2 cents is this....

Marcin you disseminated the ECM calcs and proved the interpolation and crucial need to represent the actual value of those variables....
I appreciate the hellish amount of tedious methodical analysis, theory, and the establishment of FACTUAL DATA AND CONTROL LOGIC...

Shawn-----> Thanks for chomping at the bit;i.e. being the piece of sand in Marcins shell which help turn his honest to goodness proof of specific concept.Whith the help of Mr prick...delco...joecar... all the HARDCORE beta testers and tuners know how and feed back. To finally achieve something that only has a few post by Marcin; Essential his I IMPORTANT stamp of lack of disapproval!
You guys are the BEST!
Thanks redhardsupra for being such a analytical nitpicker Propelling The layman who we all LOVE for sticking to his slightest fudge factor...
THANKS Weatherman FOR PRESERVING uphill to here
;-)
yEAH I AM STOKED!
THANKS
THANKS SO MUCH ALL YOU GUYS ARE PARAMOUNT!
EDWARD SPITZER

powertrippin

March 3rd, 2011, 09:52 PM

;-) redhardsupra's reply of I told you so; SO LONg AGO!
Means Weatherman ACHIVED HIS GOAL of helping layman apply worthwhile logic instead of just fudging...
Damn I need a new battery mines dead.
UGH

WeathermanShawn

March 4th, 2011, 01:36 AM

Thanks Ed. That was a fairly humorous but quite accurate description of events.

We will just continue to work to make the application even easier.

Thanks for the comments..I had a good chuckle in how you described it all..:grin:.

rpmauto

March 5th, 2011, 12:56 PM

wow, its been a long winter. I am going to have to give this a try. I loved the original calc ve. I will be upgrading to a 2002 os this spring and maybe a cos for the spray.

WeathermanShawn

March 5th, 2011, 05:17 PM

If you liked the CALC.VE, you'll really love the CALC.VET. Just as easy and Idle to Redline Tuning in just one log session.

If you need help when you do it, lets us know..

rpmauto

March 6th, 2011, 02:51 AM

I will let you know when I do it. I have to get the 98/02 pcm swap done then we can give it a try. I know with the 98 computer there were some different things that wouldnt allow calc ve like your tutorial. (one of the reasons for the switch) It will be a few weeks. Its still winter here.

DrkPhx

March 6th, 2011, 08:45 AM

Len - How is it going? Let me know how the PCM swap goes, I'm thinking about doing the same.

After reading this thread it appears there is hope for us '98 PCM owners. If I understand correctly you can substitute the CALC.DYNAIRTMP pid in place of GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA when using this method to achieve the same results? If so, that is great to hear.

WeathermanShawn

March 6th, 2011, 09:35 AM

DrkPhx:

Hi there.

Yes, the CALC.DYNAIRTMP (Look-Up) is available for the 98 PCM. The actual DYNAIRTMP.DMA is the most accurate as it contains all the temperature modifiers affecting the 'charge temperature'.

Its a relatively small difference when it comes down to the actual VE calculation. So, my advice is go with the DMA Pid if you have it, but the CALC. DYNAIRTMP is a very close approximation.

DrkPhx

March 6th, 2011, 09:50 AM

Thanks. I noticed your pid system names are slightly different than mine. I also don't see the EQR pid in my drop list and I have the most recent version. Is this only available in a beta version in testing now?

WeathermanShawn

March 6th, 2011, 10:57 AM

You mean the Wideband EQR?

I just use the Serial Wideband Option..Load them BBL or V2. I always use the latest Beta downloads..:).

If you mean EQIVRATIO..mines under the Fuel Tab in the drop down menu..

tor1965

March 6th, 2011, 11:50 AM

Do i need to change the calc_pids.txt for changes in the cylinder volume?(other then ls1).

WeathermanShawn

March 6th, 2011, 12:03 PM

Yes...if you mean Engine Size.

You can put it here: Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options->Engine (cc);
Or change Calc_pids.txt: See Bold print for changes in Engine size..

*CLC-00-300
% 0.0 100.0 .2 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*3445.2/(5.669*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"
VE 0.0 2.468 .4 "{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*15/({SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"

Note: The 'Displacement' issue is being worked on..should all be automatic. Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options->Engine (cc); Just to clarify, the change is for Engine Size..not cylinder volume Per Se.

DrkPhx

March 6th, 2011, 01:14 PM

WeathermanShawn

March 6th, 2011, 01:44 PM

I load mine up via BBL..I use Joecar's description found here:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2&p=128785&viewfull=1#post128785

When you choose serial wideband through BBL, you can choose EQR & Lambda. Technically you may not need it (EQR). But it all depends on how you define the WO2BEN1 Pid. You could do it via Commanded AFR and Wideband AFR, but as I recall then you have to select GM.AFR also..you basically 'waste' a few more Pids that way.

EDIT: CALC.WO2BEN "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}"..You do need at least EXT.WO2LAM1 (or if Analog Defined..see page 1).

WeathermanShawn

March 10th, 2011, 02:16 AM

I/We have started a Draft Copy of the CALC.VET Tuning Tutorial:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=135867&viewfull=1#post135867

Writing a Tutorial is a major project and the Draft Copy is primarily intended to aid Joecar and myself in the Editing process. It will be eventually merged with the existing CALC.VE Tutorial. We hope to accomplish this by September 1, 2011.

The Tutorial will be subject to numerous edits. It is offered now only as a convenience to our forum readers and participants. Many of the copy and paste functions have been taken directly from the existing CALC.VE Tutorial.

User input is always appreciated. Please keep it professional and topic-related. We welcome as much participation as possible. Thank you for your patience and understanding.:).

..WeathermanShawn..

Frozen WS6

March 14th, 2011, 05:20 AM

Frozen,

Are you using analog wideband connection...?

If so, is if your wideband is a stock-programmed LC-1...?

If so, then in Shawn's calc_pids.txt file you need to replace {EXT.WO2LAM1} with {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {EXT.WO2LAM1}"

Sorry for not seeing this sooner. I'm using a Dyno jet Wideband 2 with a gauge in my dash (it is factory programed). I hooked it into the efi live black box with the 3 wire plug. This wideband says inputs: are analog 0-5v. Outputs: gauge driver 0-5v analog, calibrated afr 0-5v analog.

I'm not sure if that changes anything in that code you've written.

WeathermanShawn

March 14th, 2011, 07:05 AM

Shouldn't, but we will keep our eyes open. Serial connection is so much easier and no Analog offsets necessary..(need V2) but as long as you can define Lambda it should work..:).

joecar

March 14th, 2011, 08:54 AM

If so, then in Shawn's calc_pids.txt file you need to replace {EXT.WO2LAM1} with {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7

Replace {CALC.AFR_LC11} with the pid for your DynoJet wideband AFR, and replace 14.7 with whatever the DynoJet assumes to be stoich (most likely 14.7).

Frozen WS6

March 14th, 2011, 12:38 PM

Does this look correct. I changed it to this.

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {EXT.W02DJ1}/14.7"

joecar

March 14th, 2011, 01:53 PM

Does this look correct. I changed it to this.

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {EXT.W02DJ1}/14.7"Should read like this:

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.AFR_DJ1}/14.7"

redhardsupra

March 15th, 2011, 02:17 AM

joecar

March 15th, 2011, 02:46 AM

joecar, as a coder, I believe you should know how having 'magic numbers' in your code is Bad Mojo (TM). Do not use 14.7 unless you can guarantee me that my fuel has a 14.7 stoich. Last weekend I got to play with a car where I spent hours figuring out why my calculations where wrong, and it turned out that the fuel had almost 20% Ethanol in it, throwing off all kinds of calculations.Marcin,

Good point, you are correct;

I'm assuming that the wideband controller assumes 14.7 as the multiplier.

In the case of the Innovate controllers, the stoich AFR is programmable, and instead of 14.7, the programmed value should be used.

In the case of other widebands, the user manual would state what the assumed stoich AFR is, and that should be used instead of 14.7.

This is why I had carefully worded the second part of this response:

Replace {CALC.AFR_LC11} with the pid for your DynoJet wideband AFR, and replace 14.7 with whatever the DynoJet assumes to be stoich (most likely 14.7).

WeathermanShawn

March 15th, 2011, 07:09 AM

Marcin raises an important issue. Make sure B3601 is correct for your type of Fuel. There are inexpensive kits that you can buy that will test for the amount of Ethanol in your 'fuel'. Thats the value that needs to be entered in B3601.

As a side note, keeping your Fueling Parameters in EQ (Tune Tool) prevents a lot of confusion in Fueling Calculations, especially when entering PE Mode/WOT.

I'll try to add an note in the ongoing Tutorials..its a major issue and has been throughly discussed in numerous threads. Joecar's statement is absolutely correct. Addressing the differing Wideband Controller's multiplier makes it challenging.

The bottom line is B3601 needs to be correct.

Frozen WS6

March 15th, 2011, 09:45 AM

Should read like this:

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.AFR_DJ1}/14.7"

Ok corrected it to that. I have to put the car out side in the 25 degree cold today. So I'll use that time out side to run a scan. I'm not sure if or what the ethanol ratings are up here. I think there is a sticker on the gas pumps that says because we have alot of small planes and they can't run it in them. I'll try to remember to look.

Frozen WS6

March 15th, 2011, 10:02 AM

Your data acquisition device, or flash tuner device,
should have a provision in their software to define
the analog input. Enter the following formula:
(Volts * 1.6)+10 = AFR.

I found this in the install guide. Does this help with anything?

Also my B3601 stoich is set at 14.63

WeathermanShawn

March 15th, 2011, 11:08 AM

joecar

March 15th, 2011, 01:13 PM

There are 3 concepts mentioned here:

1. B3601 should be set to the actual stoich AFR of the fuel (as determined by the alcohol test kit).

2. The wideband AFR reported via analog voltage is equal to stoich*Lambda.

3. Set the tunetool to display fueling tables in EQ units or Lambda units, and forget about AFR units.

joecar

March 15th, 2011, 01:15 PM

+1 nice collection of TA's :cheers:

Frozen WS6

March 15th, 2011, 02:23 PM

25 degrees outside..You probably don't want to hear it will be 75F in Denver tomorrow..:grin:.

Frozen, normally B3601 will range from 14.124 (E10) to 14.63 (gasoline). In reality your NB's and WB all read Lambda anyway. What Joe was talking about was the 'Multiplier' used in many widebands to output AFR (i.e. stoich * Lambda).

My main point was in the Tune Tool under 'Edit..Properties..Commanded Fuel Properties', just 'click' EQ or Lambda. From there it is pretty easy to configure your wideband to read properly..usually just another calculated pid..

My advice is to 'unlearn' AFR and re-learn EQ or Lambda..:).

P.S..Nice assortment of TA's..Thats a fast time on that 98!

75 degrees :damnit1:. Colorado is definatly a place I want to visit someday.

My properties page look exactly like that attachment. I've gone off those before. It is definately easier to watch, with 1.00 being perfect and .98 a tad rich but safe, plus I can do that math to figure out what my afr is. Haha.. Also that's what my VETAVE map shows.

I did do a in park log just to see if things are working while I had it outside alittle bit ago. Everything seem like it's reading good now. Except my CALC.AFR_DJ1 is locked on 10.00 afr
and CALC.AFR_DJ1 volts are locked on 0.0.
I'll read up later this evening on how to post my log and see what you guys think.

Thanks. That time for the 98 blackbird was a fat 150 shot it's got alot more left (I'm going up to a 250 shot this summer) if I can fine tune this NA tune for the pump gas. I have a dedicated fuel cell for the spray with 109 in it.
The red WS6 is 100% street crusier that has the stock tune in it. So after I get the blackbird done I'll do the red one.

joecar

March 15th, 2011, 02:53 PM

When viewing B3605 or B3647, make sure you know when you're looking at Lambda vs EQ.

joecar

March 15th, 2011, 02:54 PM

Is your DJ wideband connected to your V1 correctly...?

Frozen WS6

March 16th, 2011, 03:19 AM

I just went and double checked my wiring. I've got my signal wire going to #C on the 3 wire block. My ground and signal ground going to #D and I've hooked up my 2 step box to #E. Following the efilive instructions on page 107. The DJ has a Y cable that one goes to the gauge and the other is 2 wires that go to the Black Box.
So I should be good there. I don't have a B3647 but my B3605 is in EQ. So I'll definately have to pay attention to that. :thumb_yello:

joecar

March 16th, 2011, 03:37 AM

Pin #C sends the voltage signal to EXT.AD2 (see scantool user manual pdf)... this means you have to use CALC.AFR_DJ2.

( B3647 is the COS version of B3605 )

Frozen WS6

March 16th, 2011, 03:43 AM

Or could I just switch those two wires on the orange block and be ok. Move my WB signal wire to #E and my 2 step to #C?

joecar

March 16th, 2011, 08:04 AM

Yes, you could swap the wires between pins #C and #E.

Frozen WS6

March 16th, 2011, 08:37 AM

Cool. I like that better because that will keep me close to the tutorial. That way when I refer back to it (and I will) I don't get myself lost. Haha

WeathermanShawn

March 23rd, 2011, 06:13 AM

Based on the PM's I have received it seems the most difficulties with utilizing the CALC.VET method of Tuning is in implementing the calc_pids.txt file. This includes merging with existing calc_pids.txt, displacement, analog WO2's etc.. I.E., the 'computer stuff'.

We are working on making some of those issues easier. In the meantime, the best offer I can give you is to post your concerns/problems on this thread. Depending on our personal workloads, Joecar or myself can probably help. Its always best to try yourself..you learn more that way, but if you really get stuck posting up may also help others.

Some users have asked about utilizing AFR in lieu of EQ. This method of tuning does not preclude the use of AFR. EQ and BEN's are just an easy computation, and saves a few Pids. If you are utterly opposed to anything but AFR, the calc_pids.txt can be written to accommodate you.

Thanks..

WeathermanShawn..

rpmauto

March 23rd, 2011, 08:34 AM

WeathermanShawn you beat me to it.

I am one of the pms that Shawn recieved. I have changed some stuff in the calc pids.txt file before, but I dont like to do it. I am not a computer guy. Getting much better since I have had EFI but I am still wary of changing some things for fear of messing it up. Heck I dont even like to update the software for fear of loosing something. Can the pids be added to the current text? I dont want to loose some of the stuff that I have now. I do think though that having the Calc.Vet stuff would be awesome to have in my tuning arsenal. That leads me to another of my issues. I know that I can use EQ, but I am a ASE Master tech, shop owner and I have always been taught in AFR. I use it everyday. It just seems easier to me to use that in lieu of EQ ratio when I am looking at data. Even if it does require the use of some more pids. So if there is a way to set up the pids for AFR I would grasp it alot better. If not I can get the eq way of thinking, it will just take some doing.

My other question is in the calc_pids.text you are to change displacement. Well that is good if you only tune say a 5.7 for instance. My car has a 402 in it. My wifes GTO is a 6.0. I have guys with 5.3's, 5.7's, 6.0's ect.. that I end up doing stuff for. Since I am not "computer savvy" Is there a way to have a different set of stuff for different displacemnt so you dont have to change the file when you tune different stuff. I am sure that a problem would arise at time where you would start tuning something and realize that "I forgot to change that" I dont know how much difference it would make to the tuning you do, I am just asking some of the things that I thought of.

These are just a few of the thoughts I have had while kickin around the idea of Calc.Vet. I love calc.ve and I think this would be better from the standpoint of doing wot/pe stuff at the same time. (as long as your tune is close enough to go wot on the first run). I think you could acheive a cleaner ve table without having to filter some of the stuff you do in calc.ve

WeathermanShawn

March 23rd, 2011, 09:01 AM

Hi Len:

Thanks for sharing. I thought you raised some interesting points. I also asked Joecar for assistance in calc_pids.txt questions and solutions. This forum is very lucky to have Joe. So, once again Joe..thanks for your help.

After your question, I did a quick WOT down a deserted country road.:grin:..I used the same PIDS I have posted on Page 1. Even though the 'BEN' is calculated using EQ, I am still able to log AFR. So, I don't think that will be an issue.

The filtering..I wish we did not have to do any. The best I can do is to perfect the CALC.VET Filter..but it is tough. You can even see on my log, that transitioning into PE Mode creates a few bad frames, along with WOT DFCO shifts.

I am pretty good at manually smoothing VE Tables, so I can either try to do a write-up or offer to do a few if asked. I prefer a relatively 'smooth' VE Table, with just the normal harmonics expected.

Thanks again for your candidness. We will get you some answers..

rpmauto

March 23rd, 2011, 10:34 AM

No problem Shawn.

I realize that you will never have a "perfect ve" but for some reason mine had high peaks down low and if I smoothed them the car ended up having a dead spot. So I left them alone. I am curious with starting over from a stock 02 tune and doing a bit better filtering what it will look like when I am done.

I know that you, Joe, and others that are more on the cutting edge of the "computer stuff" will figure out a way to make everything work. I and I am sure everybody else on this site appriciates all the time you guys put into figuring out this stuff because in the end we all reap the rewards of your work.

joecar

March 23rd, 2011, 01:58 PM

As an experiment log AFR and EQIVRATIO... say take a 10-20 minute log with various driving.

Look at those two pids on a chart...

set the chart range for those two pids as follows:
- AFR: min 10.63, max 18.63.
- EQIVRATIO: min 0.5, max 1.5.

When EQ 1.00 (AFR 14.63) is commanded, the lines will be overlap along the middle of the chart.

Take a closer look at where the commanded EQIVRATIO transitions or ripples... you will see that AFR sometimes stays static even tho EQIVRATIO shows a change... if you set the tunetool to view in EQ units, then using scantool->tunetool pid linking, you will see those changes matching up to the EQ values in the fuel tables.

i.e. the AFR pid isn't quite right sometimes.

So, my opinion is to use EQIVRATIO, and if you want to see AFR then use a pid which covertss EQIVRATIO to AFR (using the stoich AFR in B3601).

joecar

March 23rd, 2011, 02:06 PM

In the calc_pids.txt file, the displacement value of 5.669 can be replaced with displacement() making the calc_pids.txt file independent of the vehicle you're currently tuning;

then when you first open a log file, go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, and next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, and save the log file...

e.g. for stock displacement LS1 you would enter 5669 next to Engine.

When you save the log file, the displacement is now permanently saved in this log file.

You can now proceed with the Calc.VET tutorial.

See attached calc_pids.txt file...

Also, sometime in the future, the scantool's builtin CALC.VE pid will be updated to look like the CALC.VEN pid you see in the attached file... (i.e. the CALC.VEN pid can be discarded since the builtin CALC.VE pid will be identical to it).

WeathermanShawn

March 23rd, 2011, 02:22 PM

Len, when you get a chance post up your existing calc_pids.txt file. Are you Analog or Serial Wideband? If Analog, which one (brand name).

Then tell us exactly what you want to do (including your AFR request). Also tell us what your B3601 value is (stoich).

We can then re-work it and hopefully get it working..

Edit: Joecar is giving a hint of future improvements in the existing CALC.VE pids. Hopefully even simpler and better..

joecar

March 23rd, 2011, 03:02 PM

Yah, I like it to be simple :cheers:

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 01:54 AM

I can post them up later today. (I will try anyway).

I am using the lm2 wideband and am serial. IMO the only way to do it.

The gas I usually run is our towns crappy 91. No E-10 in that. I end up filling there 95% of the time (only one gas station in our small town) Then wherever I am at I try to find non e-10 stuff if possible.

WeathermanShawn

March 24th, 2011, 03:00 AM

Good choice on Wideband and serial connection. Makes it very easy.

If you need help attaching calc_pids.txt, let us know. We can configure your AFR for E00

Is your B3601 14.63 or 14.68?

Can probably set up your calc_pids.txt with displacement and the other new features..and of course merge it with your existing file..

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 04:38 AM

Here is my calc_text file, I think now that some of the stuff I was worried about loosing was added to my sae generic. Let me know if this isnt what you need. I will also attach a copy of my current tune. It is stock 02 for the most part. I have changed obviously the dtc enableres, copied over my old timinig tables and did some of the idle tutorial changes.

I threw in my 98 tune from last year if you wanted to look at my ve that I had

WeathermanShawn

March 24th, 2011, 05:59 AM

Len it looks like you calc_pids.txt file is empty..:confused:.

Thats O.K., but I am a little curious what you might have added to the sae.generic file. You see ironically that is the one that can change with a software upgrade.

So no danger of an overwrite..I would use the following attached calc_pids.txt.

When you call it up on your computer..under Tab File..Save As..My Documents..EFILive..User Configuration..calc_pids.txt. It will ask if you want to overwrite..Say yes..

I just ran Joecar's new calc_pids.txt and it works perfectly. Also you can easily change the displacement in the Log file and when you change the displacement the VE changes..I.E. it works!

So, we just need to add a Pid for your AFR for a B3601 of 14.629.

Also at some point we will need to talk you through the latest software/firmware updates or some of these Pids will not work the way you want them.

For grins I manually smoothed your 98 VE Table. Notice I left the 'camel back' dip at around 2000-2400 Rpm's. I have that too. Mainly altered in the lower Kpa's..

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 07:28 AM

Thanks Shawn,
It looked to me like it was empty too. I will put the calc pids file in now.

The last update I did was last July or August

I see now in the scan tool where you can change displacement for each car. I remember looking at that when I first got the software, then never thought of it again. That is so neat, when you change that and are logging for my car with a 6.6 it will have the right equation for the calc pids. SWEET

The ve table that is peaky is the one titled New cam throttle cracker zero. I was messing around with some things after putting in a diff cam last fall to get rid of bucking. Totally zeroing the cracker table got rid of almost all of the buck this cam has. Take a look at that one and you will see what I am talking about

Len

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 07:35 AM

Just copied the calc pids and opened up the scantool to see what was there. Got a error message that the CALC.LTFTBEN already exists. (sae generic) If I go to close the error message it closes the scantool. Should I go into the sae generic and delete that?

WeathermanShawn

March 24th, 2011, 08:20 AM

I would take it out of the sae.generic file.

Yea that last VE Table was a little peaky. I massaged it a bit, but you might just have to re-do it at some point. Normally at say 80-100 Kpa it should almost look like a Dyno curve.
I.E. peaks at max TQ (~4800) and slowly fall to redline.

I tried not to mess around with the Idle Cells..take a look at it. On a MAF-enabled car most of your Airflow will be MAF dominated..you can always do a SDCL Tune on an existing VE Table to clean it up. Thats my best interpretation.

joecar

March 24th, 2011, 09:38 AM

Delete CALC.LTFTBEN from sae_generic.txt.

joecar

March 24th, 2011, 09:39 AM

To enter the displacement, be sure to use Edit->Log File Information...

it won't work if you try to do it thru Customer Details.

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 09:42 AM

I just deleted it from the generic text and it still wont let me into the tune tool or the scantool. I shut the computer down and restarted just to see. I will attach a copy of my generic text and the calc pids I copied this morning. Maybe you will see something I missed

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 09:43 AM

Error code: ERR_DUPLICATE/109

Duplicate *PRN name: CALC.LTFTBEN.

This is the error that I get on opening either the scantool or the tune tool.

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 10:00 AM

I will update it and see what happens. I assume the calc pids then will remain the same?? If not I can just copy them again. It is nice having everything here in this thread

WeathermanShawn

March 24th, 2011, 10:35 AM

Yea, it looks like your Calculated Pids all went into the sae.generic text...:confused:

Hopefully the update will clear them out..Your calc_pids.txt should be fine.

Its always good to update 8.1 also..(build 150)..it has the Firmware..but lets see how far you can get..

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 10:49 AM

I just did the update. Wasnt sure bout the 8.1 so i did the 7.5 build 156. I can open both the tune and scan tool.

I will start setting up the maps and stuff for calc.vet

let me know what I need to do for afr. (i am not in a hurry the weather is crappy here, wont be driving the car for a little bit)

Thanks agian for all your help, Joe & Shawn

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 11:00 AM

Joe,

can you change the displacment after you log data or once you are connected to vehicle. ( I dont have a car here to test on now ,but I went back to an old log and I can change it)

WeathermanShawn

March 24th, 2011, 11:02 AM

Cool..Glad to hear it appears the update worked!

Joe, do you have a E00 Calculated AFR handy? He is using 14.629 as stoich..He is also serial wideband..

joecar

March 24th, 2011, 12:48 PM

Joe,

can you change the displacment after you log data or once you are connected to vehicle. ( I dont have a car here to test on now ,but I went back to an old log and I can change it)

Yes, like this:

...

then when you first open a log file, go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, and next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, and save the log file...

e.g. for stock displacement LS1 you would enter 5669 next to Engine.

When you save the log file, the displacement is now permanently saved in this log file.

...

joecar

March 24th, 2011, 01:01 PM

I just did the update. Wasnt sure bout the 8.1 so i did the 7.5 build 156. I can open both the tune and scan tool.

...If you have V1 then you only need V7.

If you have V2 then you need both V7 and V8.

joecar

March 24th, 2011, 01:22 PM

...

Joe, do you have a E00 Calculated AFR handy? He is using 14.629 as stoich..He is also serial wideband..I have now...

I added three AFR pids, see attached...

I haven't checked it yet to see if the scantool is happy with it.

WeathermanShawn

March 24th, 2011, 02:17 PM

Nice work Joe..

Len let us know if you need any more help..

rpmauto

March 24th, 2011, 04:16 PM

I assume that I should copy Joes calc-pids and overwrite the ones I have?? Then I would have the afr pids I need.

Shawn what pids will I need that that arent listed on the quick start?? Any that I dont need to keep the count down?

I will build the maps and let you know how it goes when I start tuning. Need another shot of rain here to wash the salt off the roads. But I am excited.

Joe, Shawn thank you so much for your help. I will let you know how it goes once I start tuning

WeathermanShawn

March 24th, 2011, 08:33 PM

Yes, overwrite the attached calc_pids.txt file. It has your customized E00 AFR pid of 14.629, and all the others you need.

I will attach the absolute minimum number of Pids you need..

rpmauto

March 25th, 2011, 01:57 AM

Will do. Thanks again Shawn. I will let you know when I start tuning.

One thing that did cross my mind last nite. Because I am going to be starting from a stock 02 file with my 402. Should I add 15% to the whole ve table just to be safe like the auto ve tutorial states? I think I would be a little leary of doing any wot stuff till the part throttle stuff is pretty close with my setup being so far off from stock.

WeathermanShawn

March 25th, 2011, 02:24 AM

Len you don't need to add 15% to the VE Table in this method..

As long as you are closed-Loop and MAF..here is what you do. Add any precautionary Airflow (resultant increase in fueling) of ~10-15% through the MAF Table B5001. I.E. add that % to the entire MAF Table.

If it is too much Airflow you will Trim out any excess. That should prevent any PE/WOT problem. The formula will automatically calculate any increase/decrease in your VE Table.

Again, assuming you will keep the MAF and closed-loop..

rpmauto

March 25th, 2011, 03:59 AM

Sounds good, I will def keep the maf and closed loop.

onegonewild

March 25th, 2011, 02:19 PM

Im running a 383 with an FJO wideband (not via serial cable)

I believe everything is correct since i have ran 2 logs now and posted to my current tune. According to the wideband, I am dead on 14.7 and STFT look about perfect!

Anyone care to check my PIDS?

WeathermanShawn

March 25th, 2011, 02:29 PM

Yes thats the calc_pids.txt you need to run.

You can always post up your log, but if you did everything right it can be done in 1-3 runs..

onegonewild

March 25th, 2011, 03:03 PM

Sweet! Much easier to work this according to your directions!

Only problem i am working to resolve is hard start issues and idle when cold.

When its warm, it runs pretty sweet! Just can hit the 12.2 AFR yet but am working on it

THANKS to everyone who makes this work!!

rpmauto

March 25th, 2011, 04:08 PM

Sounds like good results onegonewild. I will hopefully have some if the weather shapes up around here. Last summer when I did the calc ve I fine tuned my maf table to get the wot fuel spot on with a maf commanded vs actual table, but worked best was taking the log, higlighting the frames where the air fuel was off then,

if the air fuel is richer than commanded divide actual by commanded and subtract from 1.0 ie:12.0 actual / 12.84 commanded = .9345 -1.0= .065 so in those cells you are .65% richer than commanded in tunetool take corresponding maf hz cells and decrease by .65% then I do a little blending to make it a smooth transition.

If the air fuel is leaner than commanded you divide commanded by actual minus 1.0. Same thing.

Maybe this isnt the way everybody does it, but it works awesome for me to really fine tune the wot air fuel

rpmauto

March 26th, 2011, 02:15 AM

onegonewild

March 26th, 2011, 02:28 AM

WeathermanShawn

March 26th, 2011, 03:10 AM

Shawn, I set up my maps and pids this morning. I had to select Calc.Ven (not corrected) to make calc.vet a valid pid. I didnt see that in the setup pid selection. Just kinda curious bout that. I selected the afr veiwing pid for 14.68 that Joe had set up. Other than that I should have everything ready to go.

Len, there are about 3 of these Pids that are sequential. I.E., you need PE Mode to make CALC.VEN to make CALC.VET work..etc. Remember we are in sort of a transition on Pids that ultimately will make all of this more clear. I updated Page 1 of this thread that now shows CALC.VEN, etc. Also, if you go to the PDF version of the CALC.VET Quick Start Guide, I give a little more detail on some of the filters etc.

The bottom line is you sound like you did everything right. CALC.VET is what you are after..Glad to hear you are making progress!

WeathermanShawn

March 26th, 2011, 03:20 AM

Thanks for the pointers! Had a few days of 70 degree weather so i did get to test out this new tuning ability. All has been working well but now our area is stuck in the 30s.

Soon as the weather breaks i will critique WOT and idle airflow! Cant wait to drive this little s10 with a 383!

Hi 'Wild'. Glad to hear it seems to be going good for you too! No matter the method WOT Tuning takes some persistence and skill. Obviously its a challenge to keep 100% TPS etc..

I usually try to pick a main drive gear to do most of my WOT Tuning. The formulas will accurately apply the BEN, but at WOT you are going through MAF Freq's and Airflow so fast..the best technique is to try to get at least 10+ samples for every cell in PE Mode. Thats a challenge, especially if on the street. Also what seems like a small of fueling error is actually a big difference. Just a 4% difference is a difference between 13.0 AFR and 12.5. So the more samples even if averaged over several runs is a good technique.

I would also check out some of the enhanced CALC.VET filters in the PDF version of the 'Quick Start Guide'. It really helps in filtering out bogus data cells that can occur at WOT.

Thanks for your participation also. Report back your results when you can..

onegonewild

March 26th, 2011, 05:47 AM

The real sweet thing about this tutorial is STFT and LTFT are still enabled unlike the AutoVE process. Kind of gives you a "padded" area that the computer will still help compensate for overly rich/lean situations. Plus there isn't many changes need for this process other than logging!

Two thumbs up guys! Keep it up!

Next project this year will be a Whipple 2.9L on a 2011 Camaro!

rpmauto

April 6th, 2011, 01:24 AM

WeathermanShawn

April 6th, 2011, 01:48 AM

Shawn, It looks like the weather will cooperate with me this weekend and I will finally get out and do some tuning. I was just thinking I have my pids set up to veiw AFR, but should I have the wideband set to display EQ ratio. I dont have the wideband here right now to look and see if it displays AFR if it will log EQ. It is a Lm2 serial.

Len, it should not matter at all. You can have your wideband set up to view AFR/EQ/ or Lambda. As long as you select the PID EXT.WO2LAM1, all the internal computations will be correct. For instance my LM-2 displays in AFR, but selecting the Lambda Pid..all the BENS etc are correct.

Nice to hear the weather is warming up for you and all the snow is melting. Make sure all your software & Firmware is updated including V8.1. Do you have all your Pids validated and your MAPs already set up?

If so you are good to go. Use the filter(s) and hopefully within 1-2 logs you will be good to go!

rpmauto

April 6th, 2011, 02:36 AM

Cool. I have to upgrade the 8.1 yet, but I have all my maps and pids set up. I will do the upgrade tonite and be ready to tune this weekend. I think I am also going to get the innovate MTX wideband gauge (apparently has serial connection) and be able to leave it in the car all the time, it will be much easier to log at the track then.

rpmauto

April 6th, 2011, 07:07 AM

WeathermanShawn

April 6th, 2011, 07:59 AM

Just did the 8.1 update and all looks good so far. Just one thing I was messing with. When you set displacement I assume you have to log first then after the log you can change the displacement and it will change data accordingly. If that isnt how it works let me know. (when you just open scantool it wont let you change that, of course I dont have it connected to a car)

Yes..First make your Log..Then in the Scan Tool, under Edit>Log File Information>Vehicle Options>Engine>choose Displacement. Then Save Log File. Then re-open.

You said it right. Its been working flawlessly in my testing here. Let us know if you have any problems..

Steve O

April 9th, 2011, 02:21 PM

Thought I would attach a copy of my calcpid.txt file for those that do not have GM.DYNAIRTMP.DMA in their OS. This file includes the calc.dynairtmp.pid as an alternative. Please review this and note any required changes or suggestions.

10347

Also attached is a list of my PID selections from the scan tool when using calc.dynairtmp. Couldn't figure out how to capture the screen shot and post. Will work on that tomorrow.

Steve O

jorge

April 9th, 2011, 03:06 PM

WeathermanShawn

April 9th, 2011, 03:51 PM

Ok guys, I am following the CalcVe tuning tutorial every thing is going well but need some help understanding what is happening with the tune when the logged data is applied.

Is it fair to say?

-In the MAF table - If the logged bens are low say .97 in order to go to the ideal 1.0 Do the values in the tune need to go down in values? Also lower values equal leaner fueling.

Well, .97 BEN is pretty good. But for example..if you had a MAF Frequency of 5000 Hz X .97 = 4850 Hz..so the numbers go down. I am not 100% sure what the premise of your second question is. A BEN of 1.00 equates to stoich fueling. .97 BEN means the PCM has had to subtract 3% from the Injector Flow to get to stoich. Lower Bens generally mean rich, higher BENS mean leaner.

-The MAF table is more important to be spot on than the VE table.

Thats probably an accurate statement for a MAF-enabled vehicle.

- In the VE table when the values go lower makes the LTFT more positive?

If the vehicle was running solely off the VE Table. In a MAF-enabled vehicle, Trims are primarily driven by the MAF. But the lower the VE Table values, the lower the Airflow values.

Just trying to get a better understanding of what is happening in the tune when the log is applied. So set me strait.

Thanks
Jorge

Here ya go..

WeathermanShawn

April 9th, 2011, 03:52 PM

rpmauto

April 9th, 2011, 05:56 PM

Shawn,
Got to make my first log tonite. I had some issues earlier today with it. It wouldnt go into closed loop at all, and I had no o2 sensor data. I found that I switched two wires for bank 2 sensor 1 and 2 around doing my pcm swap. Anyway I got that fixed and fired her up. Took a while to get into closed loop and the trims to start, (o2 data doesnt show right in my dashboard, but does in data tab, wanted to log it just to see. It did work right last year).

At any rate most of the drive the trims averaged around -14% for the trip. I beleive I have the maps set up correctly, but in order to paste with lables on the ve table it really messes it up. I think I will start over I think I missed checking the Names box when I made the maps. I dont know what diff that makes. Take a look at the log and see what you think. (was a little hard to idle, I want the ve dialed before messing with idle)

This is the tune that is currently in the car, and what I will modify from as well

WeathermanShawn

April 9th, 2011, 08:56 PM

Len, I think that looks like a pretty decent log.

I have your SELBENS averaging more like a -7 to -9. As I have said before, Tuning with negative Trims is a lot easier than positive.

On your VE MAP, make sure the columns.rows line up with your VE table. Here is what I came up with using a tight VE Filter..

A log like this is really only 1-2 more runs from perfection..

rpmauto

April 10th, 2011, 01:47 AM

I am pretty sure that my columns and rows match, but it displays it like the auto ve, or what i did for calc ve last year. IE: 1.27, 1.14 ect. Yours screen shot displays it in the same units as the table. Same thing for the maf table. But with the maf you paste and multiply. (I did that and came up with a few high ones I will have to smooth.

WeathermanShawn

April 10th, 2011, 01:52 AM

Maybe this is the issue..

NOTE: use the CALC.VE pid units that match your B0101 table, i.e. either % or g*K.kPa.

rpmauto

April 10th, 2011, 01:55 AM

I checked that to make sure. and the table in my tune is kpa and my map is set up kpa. I will try building the map from scratch again in a little bit.

rpmauto

April 10th, 2011, 04:21 AM

Yea, it was my map. I took for granted that it displayed in kpa, I now see that in the units it says %. Boy that makes a difference. I will get some more logs today before the storms start.

joecar

April 10th, 2011, 05:17 AM

On the map's Data, Row, Col tabs, checkmark Show Units, sand re-save the map... this helps avoid confusion.

rpmauto

April 10th, 2011, 06:19 AM

Well, for some reason this map is kickin my butt. I have it set to % in the parameter. I made sure tune is % and all I get are 0.00 for data from the log. If I change the tune tool to read in kpa, I get data, but not if I have everything set to %. I will attach the last log and tune. Something doesnt seem right.

rpmauto

April 10th, 2011, 06:24 AM

WeathermanShawn

April 10th, 2011, 06:46 AM

Len.

Did you apply the SELBENS from your last log?

Looks like they are still reading .90. If you pasted and multiplied with labels, all the values should have been near 1.00

I just ran your CALC.VE Map with the strict Filter. Looks pretty good to me..:confused:.

WeathermanShawn

April 10th, 2011, 06:48 AM

Hell, dont know why, but i opened it up on here and then again in my log and it worked just fine. Table looks not that good when pasted. I just love computers. That has been my biggest hurdle to deal with.

Zero's mean your displacement was not set (or saved) in the log file. Your other computer probably has it set-up properly..

rpmauto

April 10th, 2011, 07:33 AM

I didnt apply the selbens to the tune. that I posted. I did after I got things working properly. The ve table looks pretty good after a little smoothing. I am using the strict filter that you have in the tutorial. Gonna storm here soon, so I wont be able to log again today and see what things are at. On the log I posted the Trims were still pretty negative though. I did compare it to last years tune with the 98 pcm and the values are getting very close to the same. I am very impressed with only 2 sessions going from a basically stock tune for a ls1 on my 402.

WeathermanShawn

April 10th, 2011, 07:35 AM

Yes, you are making great progress. You'll have that Tune nailed down real soon.

Watch out for those storms!

joecar

April 12th, 2011, 12:45 PM

This thread shows application of Shawn's CALC.VET Tutorial (starting from post #26), it works out very good:
showthread.php?15813-Noob-needs-help-with-Roadrunner (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15813-Noob-needs-help-with-Roadrunner&highlight=)

it shows wideband AFR being read via the PCM's EGR port, and includes a calc_pids.txt file showing show the WO2BEN pid was modified to do this.

rpmauto

April 12th, 2011, 05:03 PM

WeathermanShawn

April 12th, 2011, 05:26 PM

got another quick log in tonite, it is getting real close at cruise, trims look real good. WOT air fuel is still pretty fat. But I dont think it will take too much to nail that down. I did on this last log get to do a bit of wot. I am very impressed with how good it comes around.

Actually Len, I would consider this a pretty good log. To me PE Mode/WOT fueling look pretty good. .96-.98 Bens are pretty good!

I did get some high areas in the ve after this log, even with the tight filter. (95kpa 4400 rpm to 6800 rpm) I smoothed them out a bit and blended the area around them. The values are not quite as high as my 98 tune in those areas. (havent done alot of wot, just this log)

The VE Values actually looks pretty legitimate. Based on your MAF Flow, they appear to be quite reasonable. VE Values normally peak around 4800-5200 Rpm and slowly fall off.

How will the VE being off in the upper range affect the maf calibration. I dont want fine tune the maf, and mask a ve issue, (if in another log or two it doesnt change much.) The selbens seemed pretty close this go round. It did lean them up a bit.

To my eye, your VE Values appear to be within 4% of what I would compute them to be. You are pushing over 420 g/s of air. Your VE Values should be ~ 110%. So if it off a couple of percents, it will have NO affect on the MAF..I.E., you are doing everything correct!

Len, to me this looks like a very good Log. You can't get your SELBENS a whole lot better..1-3% at most. If you ever want to double-check the VE Table without MAF input..just fail the MAF and do a couple of CLSD runs. IMO, not necessary with this log. It looks that good.

I think you are pretty much there. Blending the VE table was probably a good idea, but your MAF, Trims, PE, and VE Values all look legitimate to me..

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 01:38 AM

Shawn,
Yes I think things look real good. I am very impressed with how quick it is. (got the car tuned before my new bow.) The selbens are right on, they did lower the maf table some after the last log. The air fuel in the upper end is still rich though even though the selbens are good. My log shows in the upper end of the maf HZ it is around 11.7 or so. I will try and make another log tonite before it cools down big time round here and see what the changes did for the afr. I am kinda thinking that for just the upper end of the table that getting the air fuel spot on might be better done by using the formula I posted a few pages ago for commanded vs. actual. That has worked very well for me in the past. I will let you know how it goes. (then I can start on the idle, havent done anything with that yet.)

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 01:47 AM

on a side note while I am thinking of it. I am still getting a p0106 MAP performance code once in a while. I did on initial startup after the pcm swap. I adjusted the expected map table and it was gone for a while. I wonder if lowering the ve in the idle areas has impact on that. The 98 system didnt support that code so this is a bit new.

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 01:47 AM

O.K., Len..

One thing to consider is that the SELBENS will have a more accurate % difference from Actual vs Commanded than an AFR comparison. When you are logging a 11.7 AFR, what is your SELBEN right at that point?

You may have already noticed, but in a high-performance vehicle when you are doing a 100% TPS WOT run, when you let off the gas at the end of the run, you get a couple of frames where the EQ/AFR is still rich (I.E. Dynamic Fueling Parameters). Hopefully the Filter excludes them, but take a look to make sure.

By the way that 408 really hauls. Must be fun!:cheers:.

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 01:49 AM

I will look at the log and see what the selben is in the rich area and let you know.

yea it is pretty fun to drive, its running pretty good.

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 01:51 AM

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 01:54 AM

I will look, dont have my laptop with me know. I did a search and I think I just need to raise the values in the predicted map low tps areas by another 10. Everything works just fine just one of the pesky rationality test the stock system runs.

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 02:24 AM

***CALC.VET Tutorial Update:***

Officially the New CALC.VET Tutorial remains under 'construction' for the time being. There are still a few PIDS and perhaps 'coding' upgrades to occur in the next few months.

The Tutorial contains the most detailed instructions on constricting MAPS, etc. So, it will be kept updated periodically. Page 1 of this thread contains all the updates:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=135867&viewfull=1#post135867

Thank you..

joecar

April 13th, 2011, 03:20 AM

Shawn, thanks for the effort :cheers: writing a tutorial is hard work.

joecar

April 13th, 2011, 03:23 AM

Look at these tables:
- C2911, C3003-4 for the rationality test limits,
- C2907-10, C5501-2 for disabling the rationality tests as last resort.

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 08:32 AM

Shawn the selbens at the lowest afr in frame 6618 is .9212. That is showing a 10.13 afr. If I highlight frames 6617-6625 I get a average afr of 11.29 and selben avg of .9606. Frames 6586 to 6614 show avg selben of .987 and avg afr of 12.16. The maf hz highlighted in the tune are from 9625 to 11750. I will see what those areas do on the next log. So it is close. The adjustments made after the last log should make it even closer.

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 08:48 AM

Len, perhaps we have our Scan Tools set-up at a different Frame Count..Those frames don't match up with what you gave me?:confused:.

Also, is your vehicle Electronic Cable or By-Wire?

I am trying to figure out why you are in PE Mode on deceleration, and low throttle.

I.E., in screen-shot your PE Mode factor 1, EQ 1.03?

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 09:16 AM

Len, also make sure you have B0701 set to DISABLE.

Looks like from your Tune you have it set to ENABLE. Could be why you are richer than commanded. CAT PROT takes you to 1.25 EQ.

Also that may be some sort of CAT Efficiency Test. We have to figure this one out. I have never seen an EQ > 1.00 at cruise or decel..:confused:.

Dmaxink

April 13th, 2011, 09:23 AM

ok so let me get this right (redneck diesel enthusiast here)... The commanded fuel values for this obviously have to be set in EQ Ratio and not AFR. Possibly its posted but maybe i missed it, is there a conversion that can be used to see what the EQ is in comparison to AFR? Im playing with a genIII 5.3 here and this writeup is amazing, very good job.

Also, im not using a wideband, just closed loop with the factory sensors

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 09:31 AM

Thanks DMAX:

Joecar has a ton of Links on EQ..so I don't want to butcher his work.

Here is a start on the EQ/Lamda/AFR conversion. A lot of it depends on B3601 in your Tune. I.E. The conversion of EQ is based off stoich..I'm sure Joecar can give you more data. If not I'll get some for you.

For anyone reading along, this relationship has to be understood:

AFR = STOICH_AFR * Lambda = STOICH_AFR / EQR

and, that relationship applies separately in each of commanded and measured contexts;

when you cross contexts you get a correction BEN factor (if you cross correctly):

i.e. BEN is all of these:
BEN = commanded EQR * measured Lambda
BEN = commanded EQR / measured EQR
BEN = measured Lambda / commanded Lambda
BEN = 1 / (measured EQR * commanded Lambda)
. . .
and other combinations using AFR.

The easiest BEN to obtain is the first one listed above.

EDIT: Also check out this calc_pid.txt (look at the last 3 AFR Pids). Joecar breaks down EQ into an AFR conversion..http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=140820&viewfull=1#post140820

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 09:33 AM

Shawn, yea our scantools must be set up different. I thought that I had that set to disable,(i dont have cats) but I just looked and you are right. (lots of stuff to remember when starting over from stock.) I will try and get a log tonite and with it set to disable and see what happens. I will post the latest tune from the log last nite.

At any rate in that last log there were only two wot events, one ended up with a ton of wheelspin and the other about 3/4 way through with a long 100% tps then a short one was the ones I was referring to.

Forgot your other question, it is a cable tb. As far as pe coming in early hopefully it is the cat protection parameter. Take a look at the tune and see if you see anything that isnt set right. There are a fair amount of different tables in the 02 os vs. the 98.

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 09:43 AM

Thanks Len..your right lots to remember.

I am very curious to know what is causing EQ > 1.00 at various times in your drive. I'm assuming it must be an odd emissions control Table..but nowhere does it display in the Tune. I can't duplicate it my logs..must be a CAT PROT issue..:confused:.

Well, worst case we can alter the CALC.PE PID to prevent it from contaminating the data..

Yea, you have some wild WOT..7000 Rpm's and some nice VSS's..:grin:. Notice you hit the max MAF frequency too!

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 09:50 AM

Also Len, looking at your Tune..

You do have B3618 set to 1.137 at >6000 Rpms..right?

See the screen-shot shows an EQ of 1.25 being commanded at that point..

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 10:04 AM

I have b3618 set up in afr so it is at 12.87 from 2k rpm on. I can set it up in eq, but I understand afr better.

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 10:13 AM

I have b3618 set up in afr so it is at 12.87 from 2k rpm on. I can set it up in eq, but I understand afr better.

Your Commanding 11.7 AFR..

Probably CAT PROT..Let's see what happens next log..

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 10:31 AM

So the cat protection would drop it that much. I will hopefully get a log tonite. The weather is going to get cold :( and possibly snow a bit here the rest of the week. If not we will have to wait till next week.

rpmauto

April 13th, 2011, 02:48 PM

I got quick log in tonite, I havent had a chance to really look over it yet. I did see quick that the trims are positive at idle, but they are pretty good the rest of the time. (positive during the one wot i looked at quick) selbens are .9 in the upper range, 1.0 for the rest of the maf table. I still get the high spike in the ve table in the 95 kpa row. (not sure how to smooth that one properly yet)

I did notice last year when I was on the 98 operating system when I would let off after a wot run the air fuel would go to like 120, I assume DFCO. I havent noticed that with this. Could some erronous data come from that??

Anyway I will look over the log tonite. Let me know what you think. I would like to track down the discrepency in the difference in air fuel.

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 03:17 PM

Len, Disabling the CAT PROT solved the PE Mode issue and got your Commanded EQ/AFR back in line.

The only issue remaining are some nagging +Trims during WOT. Trims can sometimes be a hassle. We may need a reset through the Scan Tool..I also will look over your MAF Table and make a few suggestions. Believe it or not Idle +Trims are sometime thrown in at WOT (another emissions issue). But, I have a few ideas that should eliminate those.

I'll post it up overnight. That should solve whatever Trim/PE Mode issues are still there. I think you are 1-2 Logs away from solving your remaining issues..

WeathermanShawn

April 13th, 2011, 04:22 PM

Len, if you take your original Tune from a few weeks ago..Gettin Goin SSdemon..

And using that MAF Table B5001 (which was stock)..and highlighting all MAF Freq from 1500 Hz-12,000 Hz..

Adjust -5% to -7 % All Numbers..

That will keep the original injector slope, should get rid of +Trims..you may be a little rich on top..but I think the current MAF Curve is just a little bouncy. You are doing everything right, but just humor me.

Once you do that log, I can evaluate your VET table a little better..

SSpdDmon

April 14th, 2011, 12:38 AM

...your original Tune from a few weeks ago..Gettin Goin SSdemon..

10398 Huh??

WeathermanShawn

April 14th, 2011, 12:41 AM

Morning Jeff:

Your work is still pretty popular here:):http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=140778&viewfull=1#post140778

SSpdDmon

April 14th, 2011, 01:03 AM

LOL - I was reading new posts and was thinking, "Oh man - what'd I miss???"

rpmauto

April 14th, 2011, 02:07 AM

yea, I use your idle stuff, works great. (named the tune that so I knew what was done) So far with this tune I have just done your changes and havent done RAFIG yet. Wanted to get the VE dialed in. But it is doing great. (after I changed the map predicted tables)

Shawn, last nite I did some smoothing to the maf table and I was thinking of doing the same thing. I think with me forgetting the cat disable that we got too much bad data. The ve looks to be good. I get a large hump around 95 kpa, I tried smoothing it, but it just comes back each log with wot. So I will leave it and just round it off and blend it into the higer rpm area.

The temps dropped of last nite to the 40's here, and they are talking rain. Dont know when I will log again, but I will make the changes to the maf table and let you know how it goes.

Len

joecar

April 14th, 2011, 02:40 AM

Hi Len,

Log in post #230: that's a very interesting log, engine is pulling in a lot of air.

During WOT, observe these things:
- positive LTFT's as Shawn said;
- DYNCYLAIR_DMA (from VE) diverges from CYLAIR_DMA (from MAF);
- VET (corrected) and VEN (uncorrected) diverge (both are calculated from MAF);
- SELBEN ranges as low as 0.915;

those indicate that the MAF table is not correct.

paste the VET map into B0101 and paste-multiply the MAF BEN map into B5001 and take another log.

MAF waveform looks ragged thru-out range... PCM filters/averages MAF, but you may be able to help it if you rearrange the intake plumbing... do you have a pic of the engine bay...?

The Calc.VET tutorial requires (in addition to NBO2's being good) MAF signal to be good... notice the MAF waveform jaggedness shows up in the CALC.VET waveform.

joecar

April 14th, 2011, 02:42 AM

Hi Jeff, how's it going :cheers:

WeathermanShawn

April 14th, 2011, 11:38 AM

Len, I had no idea CAT PROT even adversely affected closed-Loop. I knew about PE Mode, but thats the first time I have actually seen the value 1.25 actually logged.

Yes, it messed with out Tune, along with some of the issues Joecar addressed.

With better weather, lets start with the B5001 suggestions..

rpmauto

April 14th, 2011, 11:48 AM

WeathermanShawn

April 14th, 2011, 12:13 PM

I have made the changes to the maf table. As soon as the weather is better we will see what happens. I did also notice the jagged maf in the log. Looked at some of last years and it was the same. The intake piping is good. Don't know what would be causing that.

Screened or De-Screened MAF?

About every 2-3 months I spray some approved MAF cleaner in an around the wires.

Its hard to say, that 408 may just be pushing a lot of air. You hit Max MAF Freq a few times..:)

rpmauto

April 14th, 2011, 01:22 PM

Maf is a z06 85 mm so factory no screen. New delco unit last year.

It should move a lot of air, mamofied AFR 225's 12:1 comp, good sized cam. Though it really hasn't run the times at the track it should. It should go tens on motor this year low tens on spray. Full weight.

SSpdDmon

April 14th, 2011, 04:37 PM

Hi Jeff, how's it going :cheers:

What up Joe...just stickin my nose in few things to see what's goin on. :grin:

rpmauto

April 25th, 2011, 05:50 AM

Got back to it today. I loaded a stock maf table in to fix the mess from forgetting the cat protection disable. After one drive it is really close. For some reason though just at wot I get a +2.3 fuel trim just on bank 2. Bank one is zero. Dont know what would be causing this, or if I should even worry about it as the wot air fuel looks really good.

I will attach the last log I did, and the resulting tune.

WeathermanShawn

April 25th, 2011, 06:09 AM

Wow, Len that looks like a really 'clean' run. It will be hard to get a lot better than that.

Sometimes it may not be worth it to chase down an errant +1% LTFTBEN. Once you are satisfied with your MAF Curve (looks good to me), you have a couple of choices. If you want to buffer in an always negative LTFT, you can always add +1-2% to the entire MAF curve.

Another option since you are hitting such high RPM's is to alter B3809 slightly. Just change your RPM boundaries from 6502, 6503 to 7102, 7013. Sometimes that works. If not re-set the Trims..you may have to fudge a few MAF Frequencies to eliminate that one paticular fuel cell for total perfection.

But, IMO thats a really good look MAF and VE Table. You can probably blend that VE Table easier, now that your MAF is calibrated.

Good job!

WeathermanShawn

April 30th, 2011, 03:51 AM

I have slightly altered the CALC.VET 'Recommended Pids' to include logging of the NB O2 sensors:

1. GM.HO2S11
2. GM.HO2S21

These pids are highly recommended and are very useful to determine the heath of the NB's, and to calculate an accurate CALC.VET.

To keep channel count at 24 or less, SAE.SPARKADV as dropped. GM.KR was retained.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/CALCVETPids-1.png

Page 1 of the thread was updated..Thank You.

joecar

April 30th, 2011, 10:42 AM

jorge

April 30th, 2011, 11:48 AM

Hi Shawn, Joe,
Thanks for the resent posts. How do I check the O2s. Or a better question how do I determine the health of the O2s in a log.
Can you give us examples? What to look for.
Jorge

WeathermanShawn

April 30th, 2011, 01:54 PM

Jorge:

Moved response to 'Mechanical Issues that prevent Tuning': http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16139-Mechanical-Issues-that-prevent-Good-Tuning

WeathermanShawn

April 30th, 2011, 01:58 PM

I agree with that, we want to see what the front NBO2's are doing, we don't really need spark at the moment; yes keep KR.

Since DAT (DYNAIRTMP) is being logged, could also trade off IAT and ECT for other pids, but only if DAT looks sane.

Yea, I never thought about that eliminating those (ECT & IAT). Excellent point. Technically they are not needed..

It would be nice to see GM.INPW1 also..