Good N/A Tune but...Going Supercharged I could use advice on a base tune

[tatasta]

Hello,
Currently I am running N/A on my 99 T/A. Engine is a stock bottom end with P&P 243's, LS6 intake, TR224-112, stock MAF, BBK 80mm tb, A4 with 3400 2.1 stall. Previous to the S/C, I was running a 125 wet shot but that's gone now.
As mentioned before, my tune for N/A is solid but I need to establish a safe base tune to begin using my P1SC Procharger. I have added 60# Motron's and the S/C uses the standard twin Procharger intercoolers.
I plan to run 6-7# of boost.
I have attached my N/A tune and a log file for reference. I expect that I need to pull timing and drop WOT AFR to~11:1.
I just need a little advice so I don't scatter on my maiden voyage.

Thank you in advance for any help.

[WeathermanShawn]

Bob:

Good luck on your project. Keep us updated how it goes.

Hopefully you will get some advice on your set-up. Keep in touch!

..Shawn..

[joecar]

A comment after viewing briefly:

- the 105kPa columns of B0101 Main VE and A0009 Boost VE should be identical (yours are slightly different).
- B4001 is not correct for 60lb/hr injectors.

[tatasta]

joecar,

Thanks for posting.I will take care of A0009 and B4001. I decided not to make any changes until I heard from a couple of you guys.
I will use the IFR spreadsheet to calculate B4001. Do you think that will be sufficient to get the injectors running or will the injectors likely need more detailed tuning as far as a base tune?

Thanks

[tatasta]

joecar,

Thanks for posting.I will take care of A0009 and B4001. I decided not to make any changes until I heard from a couple of you guys.
I will use the IFR spreadsheet to calculate B4001. Do you think that will be sufficient to get the injectors running or will the injectors likely need more detailed tuning as far as a base tune?

Thanks

Here are a few changes. Mostly the stuff I could think of. I know I want my AFR to be around 11-11.5 at WOT and timing at ~ 16-18*. Just need to know what that should look like.

N/A and New S/C tune attached for comparison (S/C tune is very crude)

Thanks!

[joecar]

Good call on the protection mode tables :cheers:

[tatasta]

ttt...any further advice would be welcome

Thanks Joe!

[WeathermanShawn]

Bob, I'm not sure with your set-up what Spark Tables you will be using (COS or No COS?), but just double-check your High-Octane Spark vs Low-Octane Spark. Do you want your Low-Octane Spark greater than your High-Octane Spark?

I know a lot of SC'ers use B5908 to add or subtract further timing depending on enrichment. Just another option.

So who is doing the install?

[tatasta]

Shawn,
Yep. I missed changing my low octane table. I will fix it.
I am doing the install. Not too bad except the ATI balancer install. The balancer itself was ok. Pinning the crank sucked. Driving the pin in was ridiculous. I got within 80 thousandths then had to file it down. Trying to drive it in was making ill from hammering on the pin.

So, do you think I should just log my base tune with the same CALC VE pids? Basically, use the same logging/mapping? I am a bit nervous but looking forward to running it.
Thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

So would you still be using the MAF to determine the Airflow? Closed loop or Open?

I would assume that as you increase boost the MAF Airflow would proportionally increase. If thats the case you could probably start out with the CALC.VE Pids and general concept. As long as your IAT is kept under control.

I guess in reality the 6-8 lbs of boost is just getting you back to near normal atmospheric pressure. SC is real popular here in Colorado. I'm in a real minority being N/A.

[tatasta]

Shawn,

I intend, at this point, to continue with the MAF enabled. The posted tune has the LTFTs disabled from the last work (experimenting) I was doing on my N/A tune. I actually planned to enable them again. I think the CALC VE I was doing before was primarily in CLMAF.
Thoughts?

[WeathermanShawn]

I don't see why CALC.VE would not work. As long as you do not exceed the physical limitations of the MAF and can keep a representative IAT..it should work.

Joecar and myself have expanded the CALC.VE formula to now include the use of a wideband along with the narrowbands. So when your ready to try out your new tune, let us know. I've included the CALC.VE formula so you can look it over again.

I think it could work for your new application..

"{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*3445.2/(5.669*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"..

Link:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&highlight=calc+ve

[tatasta]

I don't see why CALC.VE would not work. As long as you do not exceed the physical limitations of the MAF and can keep a representative IAT..it should work.

Joecar and myself have expanded the CALC.VE formula to now include the use of a wideband along with the narrowbands. So when your ready to try out your new tune, let us know. I've included the CALC.VE formula so you can look it over again.

I think it could work for your new application..

"{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)*3445.2/(5.669*{SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*{CALC.SELBEN}"..

Link:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&highlight=calc+ve

Thank you for the update and the new formula. I will definitely put it to use. I should have it running by Saturday. I will post up after my first drive.
Thanks again to you and joecar!

[joecar]

Bob, you're welcome; make sure to change the 5.669 to your engine size (in Liters).

[tatasta]

Here is my first run with the supercharger. Did not notice that I had LTFTs disabled before I took off. The car ran surprisingly well considering all the new stuff (until I had to putt home because the air filter fell off). The MAP does not seem to go above 104. Thoughts on that? Anyway, any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

Hey Bob:

I can look over your log in a little more detail this afternoon. Just on first glance a few notes..

As far as your MAP, I am not sure what your final MAP will be, but I noticed you only took her up to 76.5% TPS, so thats one item. Also, obviously your elevation. I take it 1 BAR is ~80 kpa where you are at?

So, even at 76.5% TPS, your MAF is up 460 g/s. I am wondering if you are going to exceed that 512 g/s MAF limit when you hit 100% TPS..:confused:.

With your MAF & CYLAIR going up, notice your DYNCYLAIR. Its about 20-30% lower, which tells me that your VE Values are going to be significantly higher.

If you are interested in doing the updated CALC.VET we have now developed the calculated Pids for Analog wideband.

Let us know. Looks like you did a pretty good job on install.:). Later..

[tatasta]

Shawn,
I am certainly interested in doing the updated CALC.VET.
So, what happens if it exceeds 512 g/s? That's something I never really considered.
Thank you for looking over the log. I really appreciate the help.
-Bob

[WeathermanShawn]

Shawn,
I am certainly interested in doing the updated CALC.VET.
So, what happens if it exceeds 512 g/s? That's something I never really considered.
Thank you for looking over the log. I really appreciate the help.
-Bob

Good question about the MAF. I'm not 100% sure if it a PCM limit or the MAF itself..but at that point you might have to do a SD Tune. Another reason to nail the VE Table. You can have ran a SD closed-loop Tune quite easily. Same idea of using LTFTBENS to fine-tune the VE Table.

Like I said, not 100% sure..but pretty sure you can't run MAF then..:).

[tatasta]

I think the guy i bought the kit from sent me a 2 bar MAP. If I put it on there, will that require calibration of the PCM?
To go SD, that is pretty much just disabling the MAF right? If so, I have ran that way before N/A.
Thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

Yea, Bob not real sure of the calibration necessary when going to a 2 BAR.

For SD, its just a few keystrokes on the Tune and requires a DTC for MAF Failure. You can still run closed-loop just by keeping your stock closed-loop temp enables.

You might not need it, but just a guess your MAF is getting close. You would have to try 100% TPS and get those revs up and see if it pegs out.

I guess its a good problem to have..:grin:.

[tatasta]

Shawn,
I attached my latest log and related tune. I can't seem to get my VE_Table map to work. It is not displaying in kpa. Any thoughts? I attached a pic of it.
This log is a better representation of the car since my bypass valve did not work on the first run.
Thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

Bob, if I run the 'old' CALC.VE pids, this is what I can up with.This is the computation working off your LTFTBENS. You might have been in VE Units, not sure.

If you are wanting the newer CALC.VET you might want to replace the Commanded AFR with GM.EQIVRATIO. Then you may see the supported PIDS (PE MODE, CALC.SELBEN,CALC.VET) show up.

But you have maxed out your MAF. Now the good news is that since you entered PE Mode with very good Trims and your MAF accurately calibrated, so your VE Table is probably pretty accurate. I filtered out some cells, so if you want to see the same data, just reload the old CALC.VE Table Pids.

I'll attach them also (just in case).

[tatasta]

Thanks Shawn. I got the map fixed and applied the values. I added 1.5* of timing since at wot i was getting 15.5 total advance. I will log it tomorrow and see how the DYNCYLAIR and CYLAIR measure up. It is pretty rich at wot right now but, once I get the VE dialed, it should come together. It is pretty cool. Runs like N/A until you want it to boost. It is a bit scary right now. By the way, it is running 7-8 lbs of boost.:grin: :thankyou2:

[WeathermanShawn]

Sweet.

One last item Bob. You might want to re-set the Trims once again. Looks like you might have carried a +7% Trim into some of those WOT. That will run you a little rich.

So if you can handle the new CALC.VET when you hit PE Mode/WOT the LTFTBEN will be ignored and we can get your actual AFR.

On my trusty VE Calculator at 6500 RPMS 104 kPA 512 g/s on MAF I computed a VE of ~ 137% under perfect fueling conditions!!!

[tatasta]

Thanks. I will reset the trims tomorrow. I will keep you posted.

[tatasta]

Today's log file. I reset fuel trims and got the timing cleaned up a little. AFRs are getting better. DYNCYLAIR vs CYLAIR seem to be getting better. I had to drop shift points on the latest tune (not in car yet) to avoid overspeeding the supercharger.
Thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

Bob, nice run.

I have been pondering a few things on your Tune. If I filter for PE Mode and look at your MAF Calibration Table, here is what I am thinking. There seems to be a nagging +7% LTFT from around 8375 Hz and higher. I think your Tune, AFR, and CALC.VE would look at lot better if you could enter PE Mode in either negative Trims or +/- 0.

We can't get an accurate VE or AFR until we eliminate those. What you might think of is hand-smoothing the MAF Curve above 8000 Hz, and eliminating a few of those spikes.

The other option would be to take the stock MAF Table and add +7% to the entire Table. That will keep the same slope, but probably eliminate those + Trims. It will probably get you a lot closer to your WOT AFR..

[tatasta]

Thanks Shawn. I noticed the inconsistencies in LTFT and MAF frequencies. I did smooth the B5001 table. Just not as aggressively as you did. I attached a pic of my try.
My radiator wasn't running. Interesting. i can install a supercharger and work on a tune but, I can't seem to splice wires correctly. There's always tomorrow.
Thank you

[tatasta]

Hey Shawn or joecar, if you are out there.
I put in my 2 BAR sensor and fully disabled my MAF (I think).
My new tune is attached. Is there anything you can see I missed?
The car ran pretty good on the 1 BAR tune. Just curious to see what it does now.
My MAP with key on and engine off read 85kpa. Is there somewhere that value needs to be entered? I know it is kind of a baseline. Just not sure where it needs to used.

Thank you guys!

[joecar]

Robert, what is your elevation...?

(Shawn is at significant elevation too)

[WeathermanShawn]

Seems like he is at ~850mb (5000 ft')?

Bob, I'll look it over this evening too..Shawn..

[WeathermanShawn]

So, Bob do you have to do anything with C3003?

O.K., looks like you are running Custom OS. Is that SDCL, or a variation since it is a COS? MAF should be disabled (check for DTC).

Through 1 BAR your VE Values look pretty good. I think I estimated ~ 140% VE if you hit 511 g/s on your old MAF Tune.

I take it A0014 is your next project.

I have not worked with COS much, maybe Joe can confirm on a few of those items.

Have fun with that car Bob!:)

[joecar]

COS5 behaves the same as 12212156 with the following exceptions:
- B3605 (ECT x MAP) is replaced with B3647 (RPM x MAP),
- B3647 cells set to stoich will engage STFT trimming (i.e. works like B4206 is ON),
- with MAF failed, the HO/LO adaptive spark sliding still functions,
- boost VE and spark tables added (enabled when MAP exceeds 105kPa),
- nitrous VE multiplier and spark subtractor tables added (enabled when PCM pin input active),
- TP VE table added (along with MAP/TP/RPM enablers/disablers);

Everything else functions the same as 12212156:
- OL/CL functions the same,
- MAF/MAF-less functions the same (except HO/LO adaptive spark continues to work),
- PE functions the same;

i.e. COS5 supports running all modes, and enhances MAF-less mode by allowing HI/LO adaptive spark.

[joecar]

Hey Shawn or joecar, if you are out there.
I put in my 2 BAR sensor and fully disabled my MAF (I think).
My new tune is attached. Is there anything you can see I missed?
The car ran pretty good on the 1 BAR tune. Just curious to see what it does now.
My MAP with key on and engine off read 85kpa. Is there somewhere that value needs to be entered? I know it is kind of a baseline. Just not sure where it needs to used.

Thank you guys!The MAP scaler is correct for 2 bar sensor.

Yes, MAF is failed, and MAF DTC's are enabled (you want a MAF DTC to show up).

Since your BARO is 85kPa, just tune the Main VE table B0101 both below and above 85kPa like normal... and when MAP goes above 105kPa tune the Boost VE table A0009 in the same manner... (going above 85 kPa represents boost in your case).

Make sure that the 105kPa columns of B0101 and A0009 are always kept identical (which you have).

The PCM takes BARO into account when looking up IFR B4001, it uses MANVAC which is BARO - MAP;
the PCM tries to update BARO based on what it sees for MAP at WOT, if MAP (at WOT) is less than previous BARO it updates BARO;
I don't know what it does if it sees MAP (at WOT) greater than previous BARO, I think it leaves BARO alone.

Your B3647 is rich at low MAP values...
my thinking is that you don't need to be rich until 70% load is achieved (i.e. 70% of 85kPa = 60kPa)...
i.e. at low load you can get away with a leaner AFR than what you have in B3647 below 60kpa...
(and in any case, you have PE enabling with TP as a safety net);
but, I'm not knowledgeable on the P1SC, so do get a better opinion than what I said.

How much HP and TQ is expected...?

Do you have any logs showing the INJDC below 85kPa and above 85kPa...?

[joecar]

Keep an eye on the pid TFMPRS (psi), make sure that it pgs high (96 psi) when making significant TQ.

[tatasta]

Robert, what is your elevation...?

(Shawn is at significant elevation too)

joecar,

I am at 5200'.

Thanks

[tatasta]

Keep an eye on the pid TFMPRS (psi), make sure that it pgs high (96 psi) when making significant TQ.

joecar,

Thank you for the info. I made the changes you suggested. I can't get the TFMPRS pid to enable. Anything I need to change in calc.pids?
Also, the question from Shawn on C3003 is a good one. If I expect to get to ~140kpa under boost, should I scale that chart to get close then use log data to dial it in?

Thank you

[tatasta]

So, Bob do you have to do anything with C3003?

O.K., looks like you are running Custom OS. Is that SDCL, or a variation since it is a COS? MAF should be disabled (check for DTC).

Through 1 BAR your VE Values look pretty good. I think I estimated ~ 140% VE if you hit 511 g/s on your old MAF Tune.


I take it A0014 is your next project.

I have not worked with COS much, maybe Joe can confirm on a few of those items.

Have fun with that car Bob!:)

I think it is SDCL. Should STFT and LTFT both be enabled?
Thanks for the help

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes it looks like SDCL..your LTFT's & STFT's are enabled.

Seems like the way to go..Hows the ride?

[tatasta]

Thanks Shawn. I had an oil leak on rear of engine. Trans is going back in today.
Snowing here so, I'll sit in the garage and look at my car...

[tatasta]

I got the car back together and put in the SDCL 2Bar tune. It started fine (a bit rough) at first. Two things that were immediately obvious. First, my AFR was about 15-16:1 when cold. B3647 is set around 14.5:1 and A0008 multiplier is at 1.25 at low ECT. Not sure why is was so lean. Second the idle was around 1050rpm and the car stalls when I give it throttle. Once I get it coaxed up to 1800rpm or so, I can throttle it fine. It is just a stall off-idle.
I attached my tune and a log of the car running in park.
Thank you

[tatasta]

...ttt

[tatasta]

joecar or Shawn,

Here is the first true log on the 2BAR SDCL tune. I am getting ~130kpa at WOT and screwed up by not logging VE to be able to tune over 105kpa. Idle is high and when coasting it doesn't slow down kinda like cruise control at about 30mph. When I stop in gear, it idles ~1000rpm then after you sit for a few seconds, it will idle down. I will run it again Sunday with VE logged so I can get away from 9:1AFR at WOT.
Thanks

[tatasta]

Actually, I guess with MAF disabled, I can't log VE Table, right?? What do I really need to log to dial in my Boost VE? I think my brain just locked up...

[joecar]

Yes, with no MAF you can't calculate VE.

I'll look at your files when I get on my other PC.

You need to log wideband Lambda while running in OLSD... this will allow you to correct your boot VE table (start with a guestimate boost VE table)... keep the 105kPa columns of the boot VE and main VE tables the same.

[WeathermanShawn]

Hi Bob:

It is getting someone out of my expertise level..I'm used to 1-BAR and MAF.

As Joecar stated with no MAF you can not do the CALC.VE, so I'm not sure what method you must use from this point. Perhaps you do have to go OLSD or the COS version of closed-loop.:confused:..

Interesting on your Airflow. Are you saying that just adding the SC has messed up your Idle Airflow Parameters? It almost sounds like too much Airflow in your Throttle Cracker and/or Throttle Follower or the decay rates are too slow. Try taking out 25% Airflow out of each or increasing the decay rates 25% at a time.

Thats the best advice I can give you. I never even see above 85 kPa living up here, so forgive me if my expertise is lacking on your set-up..:).

If you ever go back to 1-BAR and MAF I can certainly help. Have fun with that new project. Good luck, Bob..

[joecar]

The methodology is this:
- need COS3 or COS5;
- Main VE using AutoVE;
- Boost VE using AutoVE;
- Idle using Idle Tuning tutorials.

[joecar]

Hi Robert,

I'm looking at your files in post #43...

Set A0012, A0013 to in-range values (511 will be good).

I see the LTFT's adding fuel at larger TP, and the wideband concurs

Try this: create VE table (both) ben maps for LTFTBEN, and filter out data below 30% TP, then paste multiply these to both VE tables, and save the file (with a new name).

Then start with same file as in post #43, and this time create ben maps for your wideband (NGK) and paste multiply to both VE tables, and compare with the saved file.

Trying running each and see what the wideband and LTFT's say.