DYNAIRTMP.DMA Experiment..Is it Indeed Charge Temperature?

[WeathermanShawn]

Is DYNAIRTMP.DMA indeed the actual Charge Temperature found in the EFILive VE Table calculation.

Charge Temperature is defined as 273.15+IAT+((ECT-IAT)*factor) where factor is obtained from Tables B4901 Charge Temperature Blending and Table B4902 Charge Temperature Filter.

I did a series of log where I kept ECT & IAT constant. Only MAF Airflow changed. I logged DYNAIRTMP.DMA and a Calculated DYNAIRTMP using Table B4901. The DYNAIRTMP.DMA shows a more blunted rise/fall in temperatures in rapid MAF Airflow changes than utilizing the DYNAIRTMP alone.

I have checked for scanning lags (can't find any) and double-checked my math and Look-up Tables and the data appears accurate.

Does this prove that DYNAIRTMP.DMA is utilizing both B4901 and B4902 and is indeed the 'true' charge temperature or am I missing something?

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/DYNAIRTMP.png

[joecar]

Hi Shawn,

It shows that the PCM/OS is using B4901 and B4902 and probably something else (which we don't know about)...

Blunted rise/fall:
looks like the PCM is filtering the rate of change (slowing it down) [I wonder how it uses B4902...?];
when CALC.DYNAIRTMP reaches a (fairly) stable value then GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA catches up to it (the same value)...

This shows GM put some serious R&D into modeling DAT.


This experiment also shows that while ECT and IAT are constant, other factors (such as airflow) influence DAT.

Very interesting experiment... :)

[WeathermanShawn]

[I wonder how it uses B4902...?]:)

Mmm..I wonder also..its a rate of change function..similar to acceleration (mathematically)?

Thanks for looking it over. Pretty much 'proves' that DYNAIRTMP.DMA is the infamous charge temperature. Since we normally filter out large TPS% changes for CALC VE & VET, I don't think it will hurt the Look-Up Tables users that much..

Interesting though, I'll keep pondering B4902 for now..:).

[swingtan]

I can't check right now, but there is a filter table for charge temp changes. It would appear (from memory) that low speed air flow changes temp slower than hi speed air.

Sent from my HTC Desire

[WeathermanShawn]

swingtan:

Here is the premise..GM.DYNAIRTMP.DMA = GM.CHRGTEMP_DMA - Calculated charge temperature based on IAT, ECT, Charge Temp Blending, and Charge Temp Filter.

Previously it was hard to 'prove' that GM.DYNAIRTMP.DMA (DAT) was exactly the same term as GM.CHRGTEMP.DMA. However this experiment compared two different forms of DAT and so far has indicated that DAT is in fact the 'charge temperature'.

It gives us more confidence that we are calculating the following charge temperature correctly..

The PCM calculates the charge temperature (in degrees Kelvin) using the following formula
273.15+IAT+((ECT-IAT)*factor) where factor is obtained from this calibration.

What do you think?

[redhardsupra]

welcome to 4yrs ago:
http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2007/10/temperature-modeling.html
http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2008/01/temperature-modeling-part-2.html
http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/2008/02/temperature-models-are-important.html

Temperature estimators in GM cars are a very nice long story about evolving a mathematical model to increase its precision and make it more resilient to undesired side effects (ie. heatsoak).
First you had what Shawn is talking about, just the straight up bias based formula.
Then you have what swingtan is talking about, the lag filter is applied to account for the intake taking time to change temperature, based on amount of airflow going through it.
Then in the newer ECU's, the bias table been expanded from 2d to 3d to use not only airflow, but also speed of the vehicle (and thus, the speed of the air entering the intake system), to farther increase the precision of the biasing function.
I haven't looked at the newest stuff, I hope they didn't make it any more complicated than it already is. I've only been able to solve the first scenario, the lag filter is killing me as I don't know what is the time reference it uses. Paul/Ross might have some insight, I hope...

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks Marcin..

I think Joecar had some insights into how the lag filter is derived. We may all have to dust off our math books to quantify it.

From a practical standpoint, at least it appears that the DYNAIRTMP.DMA (DAT) expression itself is the product of all of all the biases combined. I.E., its the value you actually want as it appears to be the actual charge temperature. That way really the point of the exercise. Its the value I was looking for.

It would be productive though to quantify each bias, but putting all that in a calculated pid would take some work. If you are lucky enough to have the DAT.DMA, I think you have the value you are really looking for.

[swingtan]

Then in the newer ECU's, the bias table been expanded from 2d to 3d to use not only airflow, but also speed of the vehicle (and thus, the speed of the air entering the intake system), to farther increase the precision of the biasing function.

This is an interesting one..... I've been testing this in my E38 as the charge temp tables have a VSS axis. However, I can't get it to make a difference with the speeds listed there. I actually get the feeling that the axis is not really VSS at all but is actually Air speed in gm/Sec. So for me, I think B0179 is labeled incorrectly, though I may have missed another table that influences the changes.

Simon.

[redhardsupra]

Simon, the easy way to test which part of of the table is working is to artificially change the bias vs speed and airflow table to something extreme, like at 50g/sec i'd make it 0 and everything below 50g/sec I would make 1. Then have one chart that does the DMA value, IAT and ECT in one window. drive gently (under 50), and DMA value should overlap with IAT, above 50g/sec it would overlap with ECT. Of course the fueling will be wrong, so remember to change it back, but this is just for a test to make sure that the table is active, and it indeed takes airflow into consideration. Then you can do another version of this test, and alter the 0 and 1 values along some arbitrary speed value, let's say 50km/hr, and repeat the experiment. Oh, another thing, this experiment would work best if you turned off the lag filter table to instant changes (all values in the filter table =1 if i recall correctly).

[redhardsupra]

Shawn, there are three serious problems with the temp estimator:
1. calibration--even if we know how the whole model works, in order to calibrate the BIAS and FILTER tables, you need an airmass value. To have that airmass value you need the TEMP. it's a circular reference, and does not have a closed solution, only a iterative nonlinear solver running over parametrized version of BIAS and FILTER. I've had code for this since early '08. It's not pretty but it works. However, forget about solving it with built in histograms and custom functions, it's simply not doable inside of the scanner.
2. You don't know what the real temperature is, this is why we have this rather complex mathematical construct doing the duty of the old MAT sensor. The only way I've figured out to arrive at what the real temperature is, is to simultaneouslycalibrate VE and BIAS and FILTER tables, and have an optimizer minimize the sum of absolute values of differences between AFRcommanded and AFRwb. Even than such methodology assumes that all other values (ie. IFR, AFRwb) are expressed perfectly or otherwise we will 'bake in' the errors from all other sources into our new VE, BIAS, and FILTER tables.
3. We don't know vital bits and pieces of the Temp Estimator model. The Lag Filter table is the first big obstacle, I already mentioned that. Then what Simon mentioned, which model/year has which table, are they used at all, partially active (one axis) or fully active (both axis), or fully active but calibrated as if it was a one axis model (I think I've seen that on a E40 if my memory serves me right) So you end up with multiple models to deal with. The only simple one (relatively speaking) is the simplest one, with the single axis BIAS table, and without the FILTER table. Start working with that, get friendly with it, because venturing into 3d parametrized BIAS surfaces, and dealing with time (Lag Filter), makes the math VERY challenging.

Enjoy the pursuit, 'cuz the results will be very difficult to get in this case.

Or you could just read the findings on it on that inconvenient site of mine... ;)

[swingtan]

Simon, the easy way to test which part of of the table is working is to artificially change the bias vs speed and airflow table to something extreme, like at 50g/sec i'd make it 0 and everything below 50g/sec I would make 1. Then have one chart that does the DMA value, IAT and ECT in one window. drive gently (under 50), and DMA value should overlap with IAT, above 50g/sec it would overlap with ECT. Of course the fueling will be wrong, so remember to change it back, but this is just for a test to make sure that the table is active, and it indeed takes airflow into consideration. Then you can do another version of this test, and alter the 0 and 1 values along some arbitrary speed value, let's say 50km/hr, and repeat the experiment. Oh, another thing, this experiment would work best if you turned off the lag filter table to instant changes (all values in the filter table =1 if i recall correctly).

Yes, I have tried all that which is why I wondered about the table axis. It made little difference to fueling, at least the way I though it would if the KMH axis was correct. Then again, maybe I need to change it more.....

[redhardsupra]

Simon, if you want to see a much more pronounced difference, you want IAT and ECT to be very different, so a hot car on a cold morning is a good test. If you have a log, I wouldn't mind looking at it...

[swingtan]

Yes, I understand that. I'll look at getting some logs this week with the changes listed with them. It's a bit cool at the moment but later this week it should warm up a bit.

Simon.

[WeathermanShawn]

Good discussion.

For those following the thread, here is my hypothesis:

GM.DYNAIRTMP.DMA = Charge temperature based on IAT, ECT, Charge Temp Blending, and Charge Temp Filter.

For purposes of the CALC.VE & CALC.VET Tuning Methods selecting the DYNAIRTMP.DMA Pid allows for the most accurate VE Table calculations.

If your OS does not have the DYNAIRTMP.DMA Pid, using a Look-Up Table that addresses the Charge Temperature Blending is your best bet. This is specific to your OS, and is usually found in Table B4901. While not as accurate as the DMA Pid, since most rapid Throttle Transients are filtered out, you can still achieve an accurate VE Table calculation.

Marcin and Simon thank you for your discussion and continued work toward a total understanding of the dynamics of temperature modeling. In practical terms I believe we have a good working hypothesis for our users.

Thanks..